December 10, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #907582
This thread is cracking me up. Good Shabbos everyone. 🙂December 10, 2010 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #907583
true, uve said worst…but why all of a sudden r u avoiding my questions?!?!?December 10, 2010 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #907584
whats up with the negative attitude popa??
I get into these cynical moods sometimes. You don’t want to post anything stupid during them. (see also Machoah for Kovod HaTorah, popa calls someone homophobic and suggests he has homosexual tendencies.)
u seem very cynical, what does ur shrink say about that??
If you will pay for it, I will do it. I’m not scared of anybody’s opinion.December 10, 2010 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #907585
well thanks for that….it explains a lot!!!! u should write a book!!!December 13, 2010 2:31 am at 2:31 am #907588Some-OneMember
i have a gut feeling that ur concept of yeshivva bochur and shtark may be different than the way other ppl use the terms, just saying
also, a girl/guy should be easy on the eye aka nothing about her looks really bothers you and her overall look appeals to you- u dont need to check someone out to see that and alot of the time u cannot see it in a picture. once you meet someone in person and you are not turned off by their looks, you can usually assume they qualify as not unatrractive to you.
sis of yeshivish brothers and non yeshivish brother.December 13, 2010 10:57 am at 10:57 am #907589
and you know this how?
That sounds more like the way girls evaluate a guy. (that the guys have to look ok and their overall look appeals to you.) I agree that a photo can’t tell me if I will be attracted to her but I can look at the photo and see if there is any potential. for example if I see a picture and the girl doesn’t look great that doesn’t mean that i won’t go out maybe she isn’t photogenic and besides personality also plays a role in attraction. If I see she is very overweight I knw there is nothing to talk about. My definition of shtark is definitely the mainstream definition of shtark. I was in a very shtark yeshiva for many years so believe me I know.December 13, 2010 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #907590bptParticipant
“one who is learning must compromise on looks”
No, New2thescene, that’s not what I meant. (in fact, I’m not even sure where I implied it).
But it is a good point you raise, so let me say this: Learning guys (and girls) should take pride in their looks. They should dress well, be in good shape and get nice, new things.
But they do not have the right to demand the same things that lawyers, data anaylists and PAs get. Not because they don’t deserve it; becuase they haven’t earned it.
And while they should take an interest in the way they look, the role models they should be following should be consistant with the lifestyle they proport to aspire to.
Last I checked, Marc Whalberg was NOT a ben torah, and Ms. Spears was NOT a BY girl. Therefore, they should not be the bentchmark by which the true toirah shteeb is measured by.
Capise?December 13, 2010 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #907591
Last I checked Marc Wahlberg has not asked for a photo of Ms Spears either (although admittedly, it isnt necessary, he can google as many photos as he wants).December 13, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #907592
Depends what you mean by earned it.
If you mean in a values sense, that they have done things which morally justify the demands, I don’t see why you think lawyers have done that more than learners.
If you mean in an economic sense, that the market will award the value to them, yeshiva guys have quite the leg up over lawyers.December 13, 2010 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #907593koachshtikaMember
Personality and looks are not mutually exclusive
most people, guys and girls, want someone they enjoy spending time with, but they would also like someone whose appearance is pleasing
someone who focuses only on looks is asking for a bad marriage, but realistically most people are not going to be able to ignore looks entirely, nor should they
a marriage is not just friendship, there’s also a physical component to it
many girls, in and out of the frum world, feel excessively judged on their looks. And they often are. But that doesn’t mean that asking for a photo means that the guy only cares about looks. It means that looks are one of the things he cares about.December 14, 2010 12:05 am at 12:05 am #907594
Is it worse to ask for a photo or for dress size, height, and weight?
(No point, just Popa.)December 14, 2010 12:54 am at 12:54 am #907595
Bp, I guess I hear you somewhat. But I think you are not being practical. A sharp looking boy, that knows style well, will want and will probably get a similar girl, whether he has an MBA or not.December 14, 2010 12:54 am at 12:54 am #907596ummMember
There is NO reason why a girl should have to give a picture of herself!! I mean… a little respect for her as a person and not a sale item! I’ve had shidduchim nixed because of this ridiculous request!
Secondly, I met my husband and as some1 said earlier, it was a real “shocker”, my first thought was NO WAY!! But it was too late and the date wasn’t so bad. After a few dates, I really enjoyed his company but could NOT get used to his looks, on the urging of my father (who convinced me that with time I will get used to it) I went ahead, and we are happily married for a few years with an adorable little son. Do I sometimes look at him and see the “first impression” again? certainly, does his looks bother me once in a while? yes, (maybe something lacking in my marriage??) but when it does, i think of the great middos he has, and the heart of gold… and i wouldn’t trade that for any looks! (had I seen a picture, I never would’ve agreed to go out with him)
(PS: When I was pregnant I was a little nervous my baby would look like him, turns out my baby does, but is absoulutely adorable and I wouldn’t have him looking any other way! (looks like his baby pix, i guess time will tell…)December 14, 2010 1:18 am at 1:18 am #907597Trying my bestMember
Thank you. Very well said.December 14, 2010 3:16 am at 3:16 am #907598
koachshtika well said
umm you are a woman.; woman can look deeper than looks. if a guy had a wife whose looks he hated as much as you hate your husbands looks (which sounds more than a little dysfunctional if you ask me) he would soon be looking elsewhere (if you know what I mean). That’s assuming he marries her in the first place which has to mean he seriously suppressed his instincts.
Point I’ve been trying to make: men think differently than woman do about the opposite gender.December 14, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #907599
many people on this post are saying that men are more into looks than woman are.
I know this fact to be true, but why is it said as an excuse? So if men are generally more superficial, why can’t they learn to look inside a person, and not only at their exterior? If this is considered a fault in men (which personally I think it is) shouldn’t they look to change it?
I think I’ll just duck and find shelter while everyone pummels me.December 14, 2010 4:06 am at 4:06 am #907600koachshtikaMember
“umm you are a woman.; woman can look deeper than looks”
I am not a woman. And this is why using pictures helps.December 14, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #907601amichaiParticipant
if the young man or woman had really fine middos, and money and a gr8 family, would the pics. stop you from going out with them?December 14, 2010 5:02 am at 5:02 am #907602WIYMember
I will grant that sometimes a picture doesnt do justice to the person and there are many people that look a lot better in person. But if the person looks ok on the photo you know they will look at least that good in person.
Its not fair to a guy or girl who specifically wants someone attractive, and then they go on a date with someone described as “very pretty” and he or she is as plain looking as it gets. You really cant trust what people say as most people are reluctant to say the truth about looks or just assume that you “might” find that “look” attractive.December 14, 2010 6:40 am at 6:40 am #907603
Pumper,Wow!!! You better duck really low. . . I went out with many a girl. If you think it’s possible to change a gender’s nature, we got a lot to talk about. . . The miracle season is still around so let’s go!!
Bottom line, I will reiterate for all those coming into thread late; do not judge the boys that ask for a pic till your in their shoes. I promise, the whole Parsha is really hard and is an emotional roller coaster for us.
A picture just helps a drop. Thanks.December 14, 2010 6:47 am at 6:47 am #907604Sam l AmMember
After I decide about a girl that was redd to me, I put a copy of the girls picture in my shidduch journal to keep track which girl I went out with, which I rejected, etc.
Maybe when its big enough I’ll make an album.December 14, 2010 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #907605pet peeveMember
sam i am, i hope you are joking, because that is nauseating.December 14, 2010 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #907606SacrilegeMember
Bottom line is men fall in love with their eyes first and woman with their brain. Its a fact that isnt going to change any time soon.December 14, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #907607
Are you okay with the fact that your gender is more concerned with the externals?December 14, 2010 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #907608
Who said more concerned with externals.
I think we are also concerned with externals.December 14, 2010 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #907609memoMember
just as everyone mentioned already…you totally cant tell by a picture…many shadchanim and friends ask for a resume and pic and when they get it… they scream at me since the pic doesnt do me justice at all…a yr ago i went to a famous shadchan and when i came in she asked me who i am and then she looked at the email/with pic and said please send another one..this is not you!
sooo really if you want to see the girl–meet her!!! thats the only way to find out how gorgeous she is..December 14, 2010 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #907610
Pumper, sorry just see your question now. Interesting. I actually am pretty comfortable. I think that Hashem created men like that for a specific reason, which I do not wish to go into at this point.
I am not saying that if someone has a temper he can ever ever say, ‘oh, hashem made me like that’. Because that’s a Middah that can and must be worked on just as someone that is lazy, selfish, or haughty.
This doesn’t either mean that a guy can walk in the street and look at whatever he wants. It is a lifelong struggle that will always be there because Hashem gave us that Yetzer Harah to work on. But in a kosher environment such as dating I think its OK.
So yes, we can work on focusing on more internal things. But for most of us it’s pretty impractical.
I look with great scrutiny on dates to see if the girl is polite to the waiter/garage attendant. Is she warm with her parents on the way out. Including countless other ways to see how she deals with people etc. Middos, communication, are obviously the number one thing in a marriage along with the proper chashivus ha’torah on whatever level you are looking for. But to ask me to change the way Hashem made us to not be into the external is not realistic. Even if a girl has the aforementioned qualities, if I am not comfortable (and yes, as I said before everyone has different standards, and must be realistic) then there is no chance it going. That’s how we are.
I like to think of myself as a guy with depth. Am I coming across as extremely shallow? Please let me know if you hear my view or think I’m way off. I’m always open to hearing criticism or another view. (Which is also something that I did and constantly do work on).
Memo, I hear you. But I think you or other girls should simply show the pic to a friend and ask if it portrays you correctly.December 15, 2010 1:34 am at 1:34 am #907611
“Bottom line is men fall in love with their eyes first and woman with their brain. Its a fact that isn’t going to change any time soon.”
Please don’t put all men in the same category. Some may look at looks at first but, it’s just at first. After initial looking it goes deeper for most people. Others looks is not even close to everything. Like it has been said many times before on this thread, potentials need to look pleasant to each other and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.December 15, 2010 1:43 am at 1:43 am #907612
Hey, sounds good to me. Being a female, I guess there are some things about the male psyche that will always baffle me.
I also like to consider myself a person with depth, and if I am redt to someone who is not superly handsome, or maybe not even handsome at all, I would not say no. (ps- it has happened before) I guess there’s the difference between a deep boy and a deep girl.December 15, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #907613
Pumper, glad you understand. Wishing you tremendous success in all!
Hadal, right on!!December 15, 2010 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #907614
ThanksDecember 15, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #907615
I just found out! The seminaries ask for a photo with the application also.
I bet they only want attractive students so they will get a reputation that their students get married easily.December 15, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #907616
If all men wanted were “looks”, most would never have gotten married, unless you believe that he majority of men settled on their choice of a wife.December 15, 2010 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #907617
popa…its top secret, howd u find out?!?!?December 15, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #907618
It was on WIKIleaksDecember 15, 2010 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #907619
the seminaries ask for that so that they could put a name and information to a face!!!! they want to be familiar with you by your interview.December 15, 2010 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #907620
now that i think about it it could be the same for the shidduch scene- but then girls deserve to get a picture of the guys! level the playing field! if i was crazy into looks why shouldn’t i only go out with a guy thats handsome/cute enough for me- girls have to have be apealed by the guys looks too if thats the reason you say as to y they ask for picturesDecember 15, 2010 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #907621
the seminaries ask for that so that they could put a name and information to a face!!!! they want to be familiar with you by your interview.
Come on, I’ve interviewed and was never asked for a picture first. The real reason is like I said.
And if it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me.December 15, 2010 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #907623Pashuteh YidMember
I heard a story about Reb Chaim Shmulevitz, that a boy came to him, and was extolling the virtues of a girl he was seeing, she davens three times a day, etc. Reb Chaim asked, but is she a shainer?
One must be attracted to his spouse. Sometimes it can grow on you after not initially being attracted, but it is still necessary.
As far as this discussion, if a guy is attracted, but is trying to figure out if she is good enough to impress others, (or his mother is doing that) then that is bad midos. But he himself must be attracted.
The good news is that most girls are very attractive, and I personally believe that with enough effort, just about all of them can be stunning. (May need to lose weight, dress better, use better makeup, etc., but in the end they can almost all be supermodels.)December 16, 2010 12:50 am at 12:50 am #907624
i just wanted to clarify- i never said i dont think i’m cute- i said beauty is in the eye of the beholder- but for the record i do think i’m cute- i just don’t want someone who’s priorites are the looks- looks is a side dish not the main course!!
and Pashutah Yid- notice reb chaim asked after and not in middle or before- obviously the rav wasn’t only asking altz looks first if the girl has great middos etc. then you can ask on looks….December 16, 2010 1:08 am at 1:08 am #907625
Yeshivaguy1. That was a real low blow. The conversation was going nicely. I also disagreed with her on some points but neither of us took it to the personal level. I’m sure she is a very pretty girl and is just giving a reasonable argument for the other side.
Especially if you are true to your screen name, and really are a Yeshiva Guy, lets keep to the highest standards of middos expected of us.December 16, 2010 3:12 am at 3:12 am #907626
new2thescene-thank you-and i am giving a reasonable argument from the other side- if u want i can argue the boys side too but i feel girls are never heard with such complaints and its time someone spoke outDecember 16, 2010 4:10 am at 4:10 am #907627oomisParticipant
Someone is trying to set up my daughter. She sent the family her shidduch profile (if I hear “resume” one more time…!) and despite her mailos, I get back a reply, they might be interested, send a photo. In spite of my personal feelings about this, I sent the photo and said, now I want to see a photo of the boy. Fair is fair. It is DISGRACEFUL for ANYONE to require a picture of someone before accepting a shidduch. yes, they have to feel attraction to each other, but that should come when they meet, not when they view a picture.
FTR, when I was a college-age girl, I saw a picture of a boy in my cousin’s graduating class, and developed a “crush.” It went on for years, all the while I was meeting some very nice guys who wer not for me. As circumstances sometimes happen, someone redt a shidduch to me with this fellow, some three or four years later. I was so excited to be meeting him finally. IRL, he was an ill-mannered slob, and I was never more disappointed. Pictures mean nothing, and with all the takanos an kol koreys, you would think THAT would be something the rabbonim would forbid people from doing.December 16, 2010 4:29 am at 4:29 am #907628
I don’t really understand your indignation. You were asked for a picture, you gave it, and you asked for one also. So what is the problem?
It seems like you only asked for one to be “fair”. I don’t understand that. If you want one, you should ask for one without him asking first. And if you don’t want one, then why should you ask for one now?
Also, shouldn’t it be your daughter who is deciding if she wants a picture?December 16, 2010 4:31 am at 4:31 am #907629
I was once asked by a shadchan if I wanted a picture.
I said, “I don’t know, can I trust you?”
He said, “yes”.
Well, he emailed the information sheet, and it had a picture! And I couldn’t trust him!
The moral of the story is, if shadchanim would be honest, we wouldn’t need to ask for pictures.December 16, 2010 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #907631Peanut ButterMember
Even if it is true, you have to have sensitivity towards her. Better learn that before you get married.December 16, 2010 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #907632
Oomis. I’m not in the “parsha” with my kids just yet, but I would have tested the waters with a “no” to the request for a photo to see what would play out. A neighbor in shidduchim, a wonderful girl, said no to a photo request, the other side said “no date”. She compromised by sending a photo of her profile, from her shoulders and up. For some reason they said yes to a date even though I as a neighbor couldn’t tell who it was a photo of. This is just one of those things that leaves you scratching your head and makes you wonder if we’ve lost our collective minds.December 16, 2010 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #907633
I wouldn’t say something like that to someone in person. However this is an anonymous forum; it helps get any nastiness out of my system. You don’t know I am who I say I am and I don’t know you are who you say you are. If you can’t take a little abuse don’t post on these forums. Whatever you post is fair game to comment on.December 16, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #907634YW Moderator-80Member
abuse and nastiness is NOT “fair game” hereDecember 16, 2010 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #907635Peanut ButterMember
I take offense to that statement…a ben torah does not act like that.
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