September 10, 2015 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #616333
I was curious what YWN members think chassnim and kallahs should be doing during their engagement. I’m talking in regard to preparing yourself for your future life living with another human being. Is there any specific courses, books, seforim you would recommend reading/learning? Any shiurim to listen to?
Another thing I want to know is your opinion on this idea of mine. All chassanim and kallahs learn hilchas niddah before the wedding as well as haskafah regarding intimacy. What I’m proposing is that the kallah teacher speaks to the chosson (or the Chosson teacher who knows the chosson) in order for everyone to be clear who they’re dealing with in regard to frumkeit etc before teaching the person. (the same vice versa in regard to the chosson teacher speaking to the kallah etc) The reason I’m suggesting this is because I think everyone is for two reasons. One is because everyone is different and teaching every chosson/kallah the same thing won’t work. Some are more frum and some are less (I mean even in the same circles). The second reason that the two teachers should speak, is because I’ve heard of quite a few cases where the chosson is taught one thing and the kallah is taught something else which causes unnecessary tension and confusion. What do you think?September 10, 2015 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1157443screwdriverdelightParticipant
I think you meant to write pre-marital. (At least I hope you did–otherwise you better get some good pre-marital advice.)September 10, 2015 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1157445DaMosheParticipant
I think your thread title is really funny. Yes, good advice will hopefully prevent fighting.September 10, 2015 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1157446DwekMember
They should ask their rabeim what they should be doing.September 10, 2015 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1157447golferParticipant
I too believe a martial arts course for choosanim and kallahs would be an interesting innovation.September 10, 2015 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1157449Torah613TorahParticipant
The shidduch crisis is because choosanim are too choosy.September 10, 2015 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1157450
The second reason that the two teachers should speak, is because I’ve heard of quite a few cases where the chosson is taught one thing and the kallah is taught something else which causes unnecessary tension and confusion. What do you think?
I agree that it’s an issue. I don’t have a solution.
The shidduch crisis is because choosanim are too choosy.
How are you defining “the shidduch crisis”?September 10, 2015 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1157451
Torah613Torah May I ask hot the shidduch crisis comes in here?September 10, 2015 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1157452
golfer: Even if they don’t take a course together, at least the chosson and kallah teacher should speak and be on the same page!September 10, 2015 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1157453
COME ON LET’S HEAR MORE OPINIONS!!!September 10, 2015 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1157454
lolSeptember 10, 2015 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1157456benignumanParticipant
I think that the Dear Son and the Dear Daugher books are very good and I think both parties should read both books.
In terms of hilchos nidah and tznius, the chosson and kallah should agree on rov to whom they will ask shailos in advance and just agree to follow his psak.
All chosson and kallah teachers (especially kallah teachers) should tell their students that there are many different shittos and approaches in these matters and that they should not get upset because of they are hearing something from their spouse that sounds different than what they were taught.September 10, 2015 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1157457lesschumrasParticipant
Yes, intimacy and niddah issues should be discussed. Equally important, they should be instructed on:
Reconciling a checkbook
Acknowledge that they will have arguments; learning how to work through them
How to deal with in-lawsSeptember 11, 2015 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1157458
benignuman “All chosson and kallah teachers (especially kallah teachers) should tell their students that there are many different shittos and approaches in these matters and that they should not get upset because of they are hearing something from their spouse that sounds different than what they were taught”
I COULDN’T AGREE MORE!!!
But another thing that would work amazingly well is if they are both taught the SAME thing based on their frumkeit and hashkafah. Not him one thing and her something else.September 11, 2015 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1157459
Men are from mars, women are from venus.
BTW, men; remeber that women are entirely different from men. the jokes you can tell a good friend , and good natured insults will make girls cry and hurt them deeply. your wife is the most wonderful, precious person you will ever know.learn how to treat her correctlySeptember 16, 2015 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1157460someguyonacomputerMember
“Men are from mars, women are from venus.”
Correction: men are from Earth, women are from Earth. DEAL WITH IT!September 16, 2015 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1157461
from personal experience, it is EXTREMLY important to have the Kallah teacher speak to the chatan or the chatan teacher, as this very personal subject can become very uncomfortable if both sides wherent taught the same information.September 16, 2015 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1157462The little I knowParticipant
The suggestions about material above are all good and needed. Here is one that was not mentioned, and may be as important as the others, if not more. There needs to be some spiritual clarity about who the other one is. IF the boy was put into the shidduch market as a learning boy, there will be an expectation (a reasonable one) that he also make it to minyanim on time, and not be busy with extremes of gashmiyus, technology, etc. If he is more “with it” and this violates the expectations the kallah had, the trouble has where to start really early. If the girl was put on the market as a really ruchniyusdige girl, and she is not, another trouble spot.
Basically, the masquerades that are employed to pull off shidduchim are potentially very destructive.
Couples need to have an approach to marriage that is much deeper than friendship. A shocking percentage of madrichim spend no time on this subject. Love should be a major discussion, not a passing mention. Expressing affection should also be addressed directly and openly. Remember, we have few role models on such matters (if any).September 16, 2015 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1157463
another important topic that is almost never discussed before marriage is the Expression of affection. in the community we grow up in this subject has to be addressed in a very clear manner prior to marriage. as ‘the little I know’ mentioned, this issue should be addressed directly and openly, even in earlier stages, before actually getting engaged for instance in seminaries and/or yeshivotSeptember 16, 2015 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1157464The little I knowParticipant
I agree completely. There are ways to deal with this subject without being offensive, even to the “frummest”. It is a delicate subject to discuss with an audience of a classroom. Actually, there is growing pressure to begin the process of preparation for marriage in yeshivos and schools, to focus on the midos needed to manage a relationship. There are many subjects that can be safely addressed, such as communication, consideration for another, the merging of families with different values/patterns/minhagim, etc. If you are among those who are sitting back expecting yeshivos and schools to designate one of their faculty to create a curriculum and to implement it, I hope you are not holding your breath. But there is outside pressure, and I wish it much success.
Meanwhile, the batei din, toanim, and matrimonial lawyers are all very busy.September 17, 2015 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1157465
TLIK, boys who like technology and don’t come to minyan on time shouldn’t learn?September 17, 2015 5:36 am at 5:36 am #1157466
TLIK – “Couples need to have an approach to marriage that is much deeper than friendship. A shocking percentage of madrichim spend no time on this subject. Love should be a major discussion, not a passing mention. Expressing affection should also be addressed directly and openly”
It’s absolutely Not necessary. Most people get the hang of it. And besides, if e/o got the hang of it & there was no exceptions, you’d be out of a job (Mr. Shrink)!September 17, 2015 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1157467ivoryMember
It is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!!!September 17, 2015 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1157468
love, respect, and a constant appreciation for all the wonderful things your spouse signifies . support,stability ,management, and the ability to make you a better person. boys, remember that even though it sounds mushy, tell your wife that you love her, and show appreciation for all that she does. shoichad ( bribery) and chanifa is a mitzva in marriage.September 17, 2015 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1157469
I think most people would get the hang of driving too, without any instruction.September 17, 2015 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1157470
If you notice – the only ones pro-marital therapy before marriage is the shrink & the women posters. The only recommendation, I’d make is to read Sarah Radcliff’s books beforehand, but it’s Not necessary!September 17, 2015 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1157471
I have a great solution thats in my head for a while that will help.
If the choson and kallah teacher would be a married couple. she teaches the girls and he teaches the boys, so first of all the choson and kallah would be on same page, and should any issues come up in the future it would be much more simple to solve cause the choson teacher will be able to discuss it with at the kallah teacher face to face in a timely manor and much more openly.
Im thinking of doing this myself and my wife for a while. She is perfect for this, a great teacher and communicator, I believe that any choson and kallah that will be coached by me and my wife will a great and long lasting loving relationship ,and avoid many issues that come up down the road
I want to add one more point, i think its essential that choson kallah go one year after their marriage back to their choson and kallah teacher .September 17, 2015 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1157472
Why don’t the chosson and kallah have classes together?September 17, 2015 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1157473
for the choson and kallah to have classes is not appropriate and not a great idea either . After they are married and go to a refresher course, then it might be good idea to have it together.September 17, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1157474
Matan1: 1. Because there are multiple students in the class, so they can’t be mixed. 2. Because the instructions are different to each. 3. Because some subjects are inappropriate for an opposite gender to teach even if it were one on one.September 17, 2015 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1157475
before the couple Is actually married- going together to classes would be (TO SAY THE LEAST) extremely uncomfortable and even immodest.September 17, 2015 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1157476
Why don’t the chosson and kallah have classes together?
Lack of tznius.September 17, 2015 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1157477flatbusherParticipant
If there is a mechitzah, why is it a tznius problem?September 17, 2015 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1157478
The topic of discussion itself.September 17, 2015 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1157479
postSem – “from personal experience, it is EXTREMLY important to have the Kallah teacher speak to the chatan or the chatan teacher, as this very personal subject can become very uncomfortable if both sides wherent taught the same information”
Your personal experience Doesn’t make you an expert! If sometimes, most of the time Not, if after the marriage there is a conflict, they should go to their Rov. Hopefully, they can agree on which one to go to. The same as which therapist to go to!September 18, 2015 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1157480
PostSem did not claim to be an expert. And the earlier comment seemed to imply that being a woman or a therapist makes a person’s opinions not matter?September 18, 2015 1:23 am at 1:23 am #1157481
“If the choson and kallah teacher would be a married couple. she teaches the girls and he teaches the boys, so first of all the choson and kallah would be on same page, and should any issues come up in the future it would be much more simple to solve cause the choson teacher will be able to discuss it with at the kallah teacher face to face in a timely manor and much more openly.
Im thinking of doing this myself and my wife for a while. She is perfect for this, a great teacher and communicator, I believe that any choson and kallah that will be coached by me and my wife will a great and long lasting loving relationship ,and avoid many issues that come up down the road”
I think this idea is really good!!! It would solve so much simply because husband and wife can talk and through each other, know both, the chosson and the kallah. Besides for the other point you mentiones that it would also help a lot if they have to go back after marriage simply becuase both would be comfortableSeptember 18, 2015 2:05 am at 2:05 am #1157482
rabbi rokeach and his wife (from marine park) actually are both chosson (him) and kallah (her) teachersSeptember 18, 2015 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1157483
so rabbi and mrs rokeach in marine park, and soon we will have rabbi and and mrs Biggolp from coffee room lolSeptember 18, 2015 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1157484yehudayonaParticipant
re golfer’s remark about martial arts: A martial arts place near me was advertising “bridal boot camp.” It’s not clear whether this is for offensive or defensive training.September 18, 2015 7:41 am at 7:41 am #1157485
I don’t get it. If they are going to be married, why can’t they sit in the same class together?September 18, 2015 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1157486September 18, 2015 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1157487
Another important thing that’s extremely important i think, and this is mainly for the parents, is to make sure to know your child which unfortunately nowadays many don’t. Don’t fool yourself, if your child is not a frummy, then don’t send him to that kind of rebbe/teacher, even if that’s what you want your child to be. Such a thing doesn’t help the chosson/kallah at all. First of all they are not on the same page as the person teaching them, so they don’t get good clear hadracha according to their level and even worse it leaves them with no person to turn to after the wedding if there’s something to discuss, since their rebbe/teacher is from ‘a different world’ and they don’t feel comfortable with him. If a chosson/kallah feel that their teacher is not good/not on the same page etc, do yourself and your future spouse a favor and go tell your parents that t you want/have to change (you can ask some married friends who they went to). If you’re too uncomfortable to do that, then find a sibling/family friend you can speak to and let them speak to the parents. DON’T IGNORE IT!!!September 18, 2015 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1157488
Matan- you clearly are either not married, or have never been to such classes, because they are very OBVIOUSLY not appropriate to attend together prior to marriage..?????? ???? …September 18, 2015 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1157489
Mr. Yidd – “PostSem did not claim to be an expert.”
Her comment of “from personal experience, it is EXTREMLY important etc.”, implied that others should follow the same. Therefor, I made my comment!
“And the earlier comment seemed to imply that being a woman or a therapist makes a person’s opinions not matter”
There was No such implication! Don’t put words in my mouth!September 18, 2015 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1157490
postSem, while I have never been married and have never attended such classes, I believe that if two people are mature enough to marry, they can learn these halachos together.
I don’t see why this is an issue of tznius. Sure, it’s a sensitive topic, but the whole idea of marrying someone is a sensitive topic. If two people are going to live together, certainly they can learn together!September 18, 2015 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1157491
No, they’re not married yet.September 18, 2015 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1157492
Matan: As DY said, they’re not married to each other yet so it is inappropriate for the choson and kalah to be having a joint discussion on this topic. Additionally, the instructions are different for the choson than for the kallah. And furthermore, the topic itself is even inappropriate for a teacher of the opposite gender to teach it. (And whatever gender the teacher is, he/she will be the opposite of either the choson or the kallah.)September 18, 2015 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1157493lesschumrasParticipant
Am I the only one who thinks that the new couple has to be educated in matters they’ve never dealt with before? Typically, most couples under the age of 22 ( and older chassanim who’ve spent their adult life in full time learning ) have no clue how to manage a household, pay bills etc.
In addition, they have an idealized view of marriage and have to recognize that there will be disagreements and learn how to resolve those disagreements.September 18, 2015 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1157494
lesschumras: No I also agree that they have to learn how to manage a household, pay bills etc it’s just that the conversation is mainly revolving around the teaching of the intimacy part of married life.
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