Public menorah lightings and rooftop menorahs
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- This topic has 80 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by rightwriter.
December 2, 2021 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2037183
I touched on this on a different thread but I dont like to hijack the thread, so I am starting this.
Why is there a compelling need to have a menorah lighting in every hick town and shopping center regardless of the the amount of Jews living there.
And what this idioticy of driving around with menorahs on the roofs? who are we competing with?December 2, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2037292charliehallParticipant
You would be surprised how many Jews live in hick towns. Or whose only connection to Judaism might be that shopping center menorah. If even one of those menorahs inspires even one lost Jew to become closer to Judaism it will have been worth the effort.December 2, 2021 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #2037434
It’s two words:
Even if goyim see it, it’s to spread the miracle & light throughout the world.
And are you embarrassed when you see a menorah in the middle of nowhere? You should be filled with joy.December 2, 2021 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #2037448GadolhadorahParticipant
There are cars and minivans parked near Chabad houses throughout the world this week with menorahs on the roof. I guess these are owned by the same “idiots” who drive around with a small succhah on the back of a flatbed truck or Your respect for other yidden continues to shine throughDecember 2, 2021 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #2037474
The gemora says that a menorah when placed over twenty amos, is not visible.December 2, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2037478ParticipantParticipant
There are two ways you could find an explanation for this practice:
1. By posting it on this site,
2. Visiting imatroll.comDecember 2, 2021 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #2037486BaltimoreMavenParticipant
Apparently true stories abound of lost Yidden coming back, inspired by a lone Menorah they saw.December 2, 2021 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2037489
As Charlie said, there are Jews out there. The proof – you apparently saw them, unless it is a purely theoretical complaint!
Seriously, we discussed already how these chabadnikim are almost the only ones doing something for the millions of disappearing Jews, so let’s discuss whether they are has vesholom doing too much.December 2, 2021 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2037518
Why don’t we have Hanukkah on sukkos?
Because menorah and Sukkah on the same car are the fire hazardDecember 2, 2021 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2037535LostsparkParticipant
Lol, I hope you’re nicer than this in person!December 2, 2021 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #2037543
AAQ, very funny but according to the Beis Shamai, Chanukah is against Parei Hachag, to commemorate the destruction of the goyim which should be done on Sukkos.December 3, 2021 1:16 am at 1:16 am #2037611741Participant
There actually is a story that just happened about someone who converted out of yiddishkeit and called up a shliach if he could undo the conversion, when the shliach asked him what happened he said that he saw a menorah on top of a car and it awakened something within.
But of course there are always those people that are embarrassed of their yiddishkeit and cringe when they see a menorah proudly displayed on a car…December 3, 2021 1:24 am at 1:24 am #2037614
“But of course there are always those people that are embarrassed of their yiddishkeit and cringe when they see a menorah proudly displayed on a car…”
I don’t know how many of you have used that line now. It must be some mantra they teach you to make other opinions batul. If a little jewish boy is pulling his pants down on the subway do you get embarrassed about your Yiddishkeit or do you get embarrassed that sometimes jewish people act in ways that are not as dictated and it is machshil others, causing them to think we are intrusive, missionisors, and lacking humility. For you to call it anything else is to play with words so you can justify your own view.December 3, 2021 2:29 am at 2:29 am #2037618741Participant
Ok, I brought you a case where something very positive came out of it and now you bring me a true story where someone thought we were missionising or something of that sort, i would say that only yidden would feel that way, goyim would say how it’s so cool etc.December 3, 2021 2:49 am at 2:49 am #2037620
You might want to read that over again.December 3, 2021 2:52 am at 2:52 am #2037622
Many jews find the over symbolizing of chanukah to be tawdry and even offensive, mimicing the symbols of other holidays.
Neo-Chabad and its supporters seem to believe in utilitarianism. If something good comes out of it, it shows that the thing itself is right, and that any and all criticism in invalid and merely due to hatred or jealousy. This is not a Jewish attitude.
By contrast, genuine daas torah can be seen from the satmar rov; he used to say “m’darf tuhn, m’darf nisht oftuhn”, we need to do, not accomplish”, meaning we do whatever halacha and mesorah dictate for us to do, and leave the results up to Hashem. Hashem is more than able to inspire jews to do teshuva. Every time a yid watches his eyes on the street, walks in jewish garb (how many times has an old russian man/lady stopped you to ask you when to say yizkor?), gives a passerby a smile, picks up a dollar that fell out of someone’s pocket…the list goes on. Just doing mitzvos and serving Hashem will inspire people.
I think letting a driver pull out of a parking spot instead of whizzing by, letting someone change lanes, and other chessed driving will be a lot more inspiring to unobservant jews than a decoration on a car. The impact of a positive experience is very powerful. Far more people become religious by seeing what religion does to people, how Torah makes its folllwers compassionate, considerate, and sensitive to others’ needs and feelings. Being concerned more with making a” kidush chabad” than actually helping others is something that needs to be rooted out and acknowledged as a chisaron that’s being avoided.December 3, 2021 7:51 am at 7:51 am #2037639
@TSBaum “It’s two words:Pirsumei Nisa.”
Sorry it does not quite cut the mustard, if this was a mitzvah or even a hidur mitzva, then you have have seen the Chofetz Chaim in Radin, the Sanzer Rebbeh in Sanz, Babba Salli in Morocco or the Tzemach Tedeck in Russia lighting the menorah in the town square or mounting it in the back of the horse and wagon, this has nothing to do with Prsuma Nisa and everything to do with competing for attention with a certain goyisher symbol.
I challange you to show proof of similar actions prior to 50 years agoDecember 3, 2021 9:32 am at 9:32 am #2037647
Your last “proof” proves nothing
“I challenge you to show proof of similar actions prior to 50 years ago”
There were just as many Goyisher symbols prior to 50 years ago. So obviously competing with them can’t be the reason (using your “logic”)/
Whatever explanation you have for why NOW they feel the need to compete can be used to explain why we have not seen The Chofetz Chayim et al doing itDecember 3, 2021 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2037652rightwriterParticipant
Every year there are menorahs being vandalized. It obviously attracts the wrong type of attention. Yes it’s nice to see a menorah and be reminded of the holiday, but sometimes I cringe when I see them out everywhere wondering what type of attention it’s drawing, like in your face we will put this menorah because we are Jews showing our might.
I don’t think I would mind just settling for the non Jewish decorations since we aren’t in a Jewish land, true that some people both Jews and non Jews may get inspired by menorah, but on the other hand I feel it also stirs up hatred. As it is most people think Hanukah is just a way of countering Xmas for Jews to feel better about not having a “major” holiday. Does putting up menorahs prove otherwise? Maybe idk.
At this point in time we are always making headlines and I don’t understand why many feel the need for that. Also I don’t understand why many Jews feel such a need to fight and show they are anti vax, (even if justified) but now media and people label Jews as antivaxxers and spreading disease. Aren’t we as Jews supposed to keep our opinions in the community and to ourselves? Remember the overzealous biryonim of beitar? Do we not learn from our own history?December 3, 2021 10:22 am at 10:22 am #2037681
Anyway, electric menorahs is a problem of lacking a shiur, so people might think that this is being lit for the mitzva even if one is lighting correctly inside.December 3, 2021 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2037699
phil > Aren’t we as Jews supposed to keep our opinions in the community and to ourselves?
yes, but you also should examine opinions that are embarrassing and see if you need to fix them. Torah says that nations will look at our laws and say “how wise nd understanding this nation is”
We tried to help you with information but you keep referring to “numerous experts’ that you are not able to quote or name. Maybe time to ask your posek.December 3, 2021 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2037744
Reb E, there’s also no wick, that’s l”ikuva. That’s why a kerosene lamp is not good either
Commonsaychel is right; there’s no record of people lighting anywhere besides their home and shul..pirsumei nisa is a requirement of ner chanuka, but not something you are yotzei with anything other than the halacha of ner ish ubayso.December 3, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2037756
you contradict yourself
“but not something you are yotzei with anything other than the halacha of ner ish ubayso.”
“lighting anywhere besides their home and shul”
Shul isnt Bayso.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not in favor of these public displays (certainly not with a beracha r”l). I am in favor of honesty and saying that there is ONLY an idea of lighting at home is demonstrably false (as evidenced in your post)December 3, 2021 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2037778
Shul is established in the rishonim, but you’re not yotzei through lighting there; it’s a minhag, but we can’t invent new minhagim based loosely on itDecember 3, 2021 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2037780
In the alte heim they were not able to go and have a public menorah lighting in the town hall, especially in russia. There would be pogroms following, along with other bad stuff, if it was even allowed in the first place.December 3, 2021 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2037788
much better. ThanksDecember 4, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2037909
“In the alte heim they were not able to go and have a public menorah lighting in the town hall, especially in russia. There would be pogroms following, along with other bad stuff, if it was even allowed in the first place.”
1. Places like the Austro- Hungrian Empire, the German Kaisers, Morocco and the New World allowed yidden full practice of the faith, yet no one felt the compelling need to light the menorah in the Town Square or have a silly chanucka parade.
2. If it was even a havaminah of a hiddah mitzva any of the above mentioned Gedolim would have risked life and limb to do it.
3. My challage remains, show m one odam golod who did this in the prior to 40 years agoDecember 4, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2037913
> Shul is established in the rishonim,
Obviously, we were not able to light publicly in most countries for last millenia … we even moved menorahs from outside to inside. Does anyone light new publicly in, say, Paris, where reportedly Jews do not walk publicly in kipah? I can’t find an example of a society where Jews had a status to light in public, so this seems to be a novel question for today’s society.December 5, 2021 3:24 am at 3:24 am #2037987
AAQ, in eretz yisroel where the minhag was/is to light outside, no one ever had public lighting besides shulDecember 5, 2021 10:47 am at 10:47 am #2038109
@AAQ, “I can’t find an example of a society where Jews had a status to light in public, so this seems to be a novel question for today’s society.”
Just because we have rights that we never enjoyed before does not mean we have to be in your face about it, for example we have the right to perform mezitzah beh peh, do we have to have a demostation of that in middle of Time Square?
Eidlekite was always a yiddish middah, you can spot a Bais Yakov girl / yeshiva bucher by the way they talk and walk, not being in your face is a yiddisher middah.December 5, 2021 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2038138
To follow on commons call for cautiousness, Maybe there are limits to public lighting when there’s opposition: don’t sue town hall for your first amendment rights, don’t do it where antisemitic feelings are high. Or join with other religions to have everyone access public property. We have an example in NY where Jewish schools join Catholics in fighting public health measures. An effort as admired in the unity aspect as misguided at its goal.December 5, 2021 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2038137
Common, I agree with the sentiment on humility,. I am not saying one should do this. Just saying it is a new question that was not entertained before, so we can’t answer by saying that Yitzele Peterburger didn’t light by the czar.December 5, 2021 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #2038234
@AAQ, there is a HUGE differnce between standing up for our rights given to us by the US goverment and yes it made for an interesting parnership [btw they won the lawsuit] and a bunch of people riding around town in a ragtag parade of menorahsDecember 5, 2021 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2038296
there is not much difference – Both religious education and equal access to town hall relate to the first Amendment. In both cases, the opponents are those who mis-interpret equal access to “no religion” (i.e. no funds for religious institutions and no reiligious symbols at town hall). AND in both cases, when you advocate for things that a big chunk of population does not like (covidike schols and public menorahs) there is a price to pay for demanding the rights. Specific heshbon what we gain v. what we lose may be a subject of disagreement. To the school side, as you are say, they are defending freedoms they had while public menorah is invading public sphere. To the other side, schools seem to solve health-freedom dilemmas to their own financial benefit while people with menorahs have a passion for pirsumei nisa. Not an easy kal vahomer.December 6, 2021 5:57 am at 5:57 am #2038385
There is a HUGE difference, one being the court of law and second being the court of public opinion.
In a court of law I would support Chabad 100% if they were denied the permit even sending a check to legal fund, simply reason, Menorah today, shul closure tomorrow, Metzitza ban the next day, Bris ban after that, very simple we have to stop the anti religious bias in its tracks.
In the court of public opinion I find it absurd the need to have a public meorah lighting in every little dorf, and to drive around town with menorahs on the roof of the cars all under the guise of “persumi nisa” If either one was the case Reb Moshe Feinstein, Rabbi JB Soloveitchik or the Bobover Rebbe for example would have done it here in the US, all were makpid on hidur mitzva.
And frankly I don’t think a ragtag line of Harleys with mounted menorahs followed by a school bus of kids hollering out the windows, followed by a bunch of minvans is persumi nisa.
Eidelkiet is the hallmark of the Jewish nationsDecember 6, 2021 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #2038512Avram in MDParticipant
“Seriously, we discussed already how these chabadnikim are almost the only ones doing something for the millions of disappearing Jews, so let’s discuss whether they are has vesholom doing too much.”
“Being concerned more with making a” kidush chabad” than actually helping others is something that needs to be rooted out and acknowledged as a chisaron that’s being avoided.”
Both of these statements are highly unfair. Chabad certainly is not the only group doing kiruv, and while reasonable discussion here on the CR is frequently lacking, there are real questions that do merit thoughtful discussion. For example, safety of highly public displays when Chabad menoras are being R”L trashed by antisemites, challenges of raising frum children outside of religious communities and surrounded by non-frum college students, etc.
And chesed is a primary motivator in Chabad’s mission. I have personally benefited from the chesed of chabad shluchim and have great hakaras hatov. The goal was helping with mitzvah observance on a practical level, not promoting Chabad ideology.December 6, 2021 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #2038516Avram in MDParticipant
“Eidelkiet is the hallmark of the Jewish nations”
Why didn’t you make this same point when referencing the flag waving motorcades here: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/affinity-for-donald-trump
Are loud motorcades ok for a goyish politician, but not for Chanukah?December 6, 2021 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #2038617
Avram, I think when commonsaychel made the remarks about humility, he was thinking using his jewish sensitivity….many people who support trump and/or conservativism in general, have a certain cognitive dissonance when it comes to contradictions to Torah in that community.
Yidden do chessed; that’s one of the 3 simanim. The problem is that chabad emphasizes it as part of their shlichus mission in an effort to spread neo-chabad ideology – they then use their chessed as an effective cajole to silence opposition, because how can you oppose people who do so much chessed? That’s one of their top 2 retorts to when someone even questions chabad or the lubavitcher rebbe.
If anyone’s noticed, i always refrain from calling the lubavitcher rebbe “the rebbe”, because it’s a tool chabad uses to aggrandize his status above other rebbes and rabbonim who were either as big or greater than him.December 6, 2021 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #2038621zahavasdadParticipant
I am not a chabadncik and far from it and there is a lot I disagree with Chabad about
I will say the following at this time of year there are a lot of public tree lightights and they look cool. People who arent so frum will want to participate, What chabad has done has made the Menorah lighting cool and people will want to come. Their events are interesting and exciting. How many not yet frum people see the big menorah with the Cherry Picker and the Blow torch along with the exciting event they have with it and will want to participate. They have music and are event not be missed. People want to go. They can draw hundreds and thousands of people to such an event
these events are not aimed at you, they are aimed at a different crowd. Until you can get Hundreds or thousands to attend your candle lighting event, Its best to admire them from a distanceDecember 6, 2021 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2038636ujmParticipant
WB, ZD!December 6, 2021 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2038648
@avrahm in md, I was puzzzled by the level of support and I said so in the post, I also wrote in a other post I found the frum trump motorcades cringe worthy.December 6, 2021 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2038693
Avram > Chabad certainly is not the only group doing kiruv,
First Chabad does not do “kiruv”, they do no not (or at least not supposed to) look down at other Jewish people. Others have organizations that work on this. Most observant Jews, whether charedi or YI, go through their day without worrying much about their non-observant brothers. Jews used to have missions sometimes. For example, supporting Jews in EY, whether yeshivos or workers. There were wedding announcements in newspapers with a lists of guests and how much each donated for EY. The fate of disappearing Jews is not on the radar. This does not take away from shortcomings and problems that exist in the movement. but need to be modeh al haemes.December 6, 2021 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #2038696
Avira > then use their chessed as an effective cajole to silence opposition,
Most of those who do preach their own ideology are sincere believers. We should expect them to fairly present other movements and many fail at that, but that they teach their own approach is understandable. Go open your own brisker houses and preach your approach. Competition between Torah teachers is allowed and encouraged and is good for the teachers in halakhaDecember 6, 2021 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #2038738
Sorry commonsaychel, looks like i believed the quote from you without looking it up – as such i owe you a bracha!December 6, 2021 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #2038789
I can tell (I knew a long time ago) that you are not chassidish from any chassidus.
Ask a satmar chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the satmar rebbe.
Ask a gerrer chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the gerrer rebbe.
Ask a belzer chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the belzer rebbe.
Ask a bobover chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the bobover rebbe.
Ask a breslover chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the breslover rebbe.
Ask a sanzer chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the sanzer rebbe.
Ask a vizhnitzer chossid who “the rebbe” is, and he will tell you the vizhnitzer rebbe.
My point is, that lubavitchers call him “the rebbe”, because he is our rebbe. He is the closest of all the rebbes to us, and to us he is the rebbe, he is our rebbe and that’s my rebbe. And since he is our rebbe, we believe that he is the rebbe.
And to a belzer chossid, the rebbe is the belzer rebbe, and he is “the rebbe”. And he is the rebbe, more important than all other rebbes, because he is their rebbe.
Think of it like this: Your rosh yeshiva, you have much of a closer relationship with him than the rosh yeshiva of a different yeshiva. In your mind, he is “the rosh yeshiva”.
It’s not so hard to understand.December 7, 2021 1:07 am at 1:07 am #2038855
Of course all chasidim refer to their rebbe as “der rebbeh”. I did too when i davened in a chasidishe place with its own rebbe. I didn’t refer to my rebbeh as “the rebbe” if i was talking to someone outside of my shul, because he’s not the rebbeh of everyone. When chabad writes about “the rebbe”, they can be talking to goyim, and he’s “the rebbe”, because he’s everyone’s rebbeh, the “nasi hador”, a messianic candidate, and some say more.December 7, 2021 1:21 am at 1:21 am #2038858
As it happens to be, i was zocheh to build a relationship with 2 chasidishe rebbehs; I don’t consider myself chasidish, but i do spend time in that world both physically and in my learning – chasidus has had a very big influence on my hashkofos. I love genuine chasidishe Torah, and I have the utmost respect for all groups of chasidim who don’t believe their departed rebbe to be the messiah…even when i am at a loss for an explanation of some minhagim that seem to be at odds with halacha. But the “final say” to me is in the world of bais brisk when there’s any conflict between the two; that’s my personal mesorah and I don’t think it’s any more correct than chasidus; if things had gone a little different in my early 20s, i could have ended up a satmar chossid, but that’s not what hashgocha had in mind.December 7, 2021 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2038927
“When chabad writes about “the rebbe”, they can be talking to goyim, and he’s “the rebbe”, because he’s everyone’s rebbeh, the “nasi hador”, a messianic candidate, and some say more.”
Are you agreeing with that statement you said? Why then are you saying it as if it’s true?
My rebbe is the lubavitcher rebbe, and in my world he is the rebbe. And in my view, he was the nasi hador when we were still zoche to have him alive physically. I’m not sure what kind of stuff ou know about the rebbe, but he cared about all the yidden. The other gedolim and tzadikim cared fore a lot of klal yisrael-or most of the frum- but not all. And that’s why the rebbe was so into kiruv and sent thousands of shluchim across the world to connect every jew with torah and mitzvos.
And if you don’t agree with that, then you don’t have to agree.
I’m just telling you why we think that the rebbe was the nasi hador. And you won’t really change our opinion no matter how many posts you write saying lubavitchers are wrong to believe in their rebbe as a great leader. Nobody is imposing on you that you have to call the lubavitcher rebbe “the rebbe”. Your now trying to impose on us that we can’t believe or say that the rebbe is the nasi hador. (Let alone the fact that some people view some gedolim as the Gedolei Hador and making everyone else view that the same way because he is is the gadol hador, and if anyone says that he isnt, that a different gadol is, then he is shaming the gadol hador! How dare he!)December 7, 2021 8:36 am at 8:36 am #2038936
” he was the nasi hador ”
That is a title Chabad created for him.
” he was the nasi hador when we were still zoche to have him alive physically. ”
I don’t think I have ever heard a chabanik say that.
“but he cared about all the yidden.”
100%. I don’t know if anyone disagrees with that,
“The other gedolim and tzadikim cared fore a lot of klal yisrael-or most of the frum- but not all. ”
That, on the other hand, is sheker, and delusional. Honestly, you barely know beans about most gedolim so you could only say that if someone told it to you. And that is called propaganda. That someone should actually have taught you that about other gedolim gives me chills down my spine.
Nobody is trying to change your mind. And you seem too young to hear exactly what is being said in these conversations (based on your responses) I have a lot of disagreement with some of the minhagim of the chassidim and I could never see myself living that life, but I don’t have an issue with a Satmar yid saying his Rebbe is a Gadol. The people who have a problem with your Rebbe have a problem with him and things he did that would disqualify him as a gadol, they aren’t having a contest saying that he can’t be a gadol because their own rebbe is one.December 7, 2021 8:56 am at 8:56 am #2038942☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Why didn’t you make this same point when referencing the flag waving motorcades here: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/affinity-for-donald-trump
Are loud motorcades ok for a goyish politician, but not for Chanukah?
I think both are wrong for the same reason, although arguably, the menorah has more of an upside.
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