February 7, 2021 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1946087
I hoped someone will explain to me why you are holding for daas Torah, instead you are claiming that it is just same as existed before. I do have to apologize to my teacher, for causing lashon hara thrown at him. I did not follow Ch Haim that one should not praise someone who is not 100% accepted tzadik as someone will contradict. Still, how someone can claim that daas Torah is included in traditional respect of chachamim and send a Holocaust survivor to China at the same time is beyond my understanding. But I digressed.
Maybe we can try to define what Daas Torah stands for … I would appreciate if you look at these references that others refer as suggesting using advice of others but still relying on sechel and mitzvot:
Gra, Mishley 16:4
Ruach Chaim Avos 2:7
Ha’amek Davar, Deut. 29:8
Netziv on Koheles 8:1
Iggeret Hakodesh of Baal HaTanya, Chap. 22.February 8, 2021 7:24 am at 7:24 am #1946135Abba_SParticipant
The main problem is not giving shaloch monas but the going to social gatherings ie parties. Since this year Purim falls out on Friday there should be less of them. The problem is Thursday night parties, there are alot of people coming and going and few or any are wearing masks over thier nose and mouth so it could be a super spreader.February 8, 2021 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1946214trybepoliteParticipant
Well so far in England, the Gatshead Rabbonim have said only to give to a couple neighbours, and in Manchester, the Rabbonim haven’t come out with anything yet but the police are going to be out there in full force, looking for people to get into trouble so we need to be super careful here if we don’t want to get £10,000 fines.
i dont know what London are doing.February 8, 2021 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1946260
@always ask, I dont want to make this I said vs you said, read what I wrote:
“so your Rabbi and your encyclopedia can take the slow boat to China and no one will notice any difference”
Meaning the fact that both feel there is is not such a thing as daas torah makes them completely irrelevant.February 9, 2021 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1946525Reb EliezerParticipantMarch 11, 2021 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1956272March 11, 2021 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1956282
No spike in chutz either, numbers are dropping inspite of Chicken Little saying the sky is falling, very normal purim in Monsey, BP, Flatbush, Lakewood, MonroeMarch 11, 2021 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1956479
common, how do you know it is “in spite” and not because many were careful? Also, with elderly people getting vaccinated, b’ezrat Hashem, there will be less visible signsMarch 11, 2021 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1956497
@AAQ, because it was a NORMAL purim, ie groups, parties large migilla reading etc.etc., the only masks I saw were kids costume masks, I was there so I know, sorry chicken little the sky is not fallingMarch 12, 2021 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1956506
common – I just googled that Lakewood Rabbonim called for various safety measures and reduced fesitivities. Are you saying that people disregarded that? I presume you simply saw people who came and did not see people who did not come. And those who came are not careful all the time, so half were already immune. Where I live, there is a pretty representative group of people from Lakewood, some recent arrivals, and while a larger number of them walking maskless is larger than in other populations, there are a lot who are complying with government and Rabbi’s orders.March 12, 2021 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1956512
AAQ- from square one til now the experts have repeated that precautions cannot and are not expected to prevent covid. Their purpose was to slow the spread so hospitals won’t be overwhelmed and to give the world time to develop a vaccine and therapeutics. Yet you keep repeating this ridiculous mantra “so they weren’t careful and got sick”, “so they did it wrong and got sick”, “so they weren’t safe cuz they got sick”. There is no source for that silliness. If you kissed a covid patient in march 2020 you probably got sick 2 weeks later, but unless you literally cut yourself off from all living beings, you probably got it somewhere in the following 12 months. Stop thinking everyone who got covid was negligent or ignorant. It’s a virus and it was never a thing to outrun it.March 12, 2021 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1956536Yserbius123Participant
@syag-lchochma @commonsaychel I’ve heard that many communities that had lax COVID standards have been keeping quiet about the true toll it’s taken. The large simchas, packed shuls, no masks, testing only healthy people, and other violations have actually killed and hospitalized many many people. But since it causes such a geshrai, they just go on as if life is normal and say “Well, that guy was old anyway, we’ll just say it was a heart attack”.March 12, 2021 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1956538
You can’t keep deaths quiet.
There haven’t been “many many” deaths since almost a year ago. R”L there have been some.March 12, 2021 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1956540
Unless you believe in conspiracy theories…March 12, 2021 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1956542
Yserbius – well that was a pretty pathetic attempt at humor. Unless you’ve really lost it and think that’s true. I think it’s horrific motzei shem ra and frankly, a bunch of baloney. Too much cuomo nursing home scandal rattling aroung in your head?March 12, 2021 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1956544
Oh, i think i just figured it out. You can’t cope with the disparity that in cities where they were lax the death toll wasn’t what you expected so you pretend it was, and have the gall to post it online as an actual rumor.
I’ll just pray there’s a different explanation.March 12, 2021 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1956556
@AAQ, how about I was in Lakewood and saw it first hand the purim went on as normal and it had zero to do with the ederly getting vacinated Lakewod is a very young town I dont need Google to tell me facts because I was there, oh wait a minute you said you don’t suscripe to the consept of daas torah, why the change all of a sudden?March 12, 2021 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1956557
@Yserbius, do you have any proof of your insane statement? it has to be factual because a MD signs a death certificate and no one is going to risk signing a false cause of death, same with hospitals they report all Covid cases.
I am going to be dan lekav sechus and assume since its Adar you are still ad de lo yodahMarch 12, 2021 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1956684Yserbius123Participant
It’s a rumor, one I’m inclined to believe. For example, there was a Lakewood paper that printed several pages of obituaries last year for Pesach because of all the COVID deaths. Then they stopped printing obituaries.
I’m curious why now you demand a high standard of proof for everything people say, when previously you were quick to disregard any expert opinion on the topic of Coronavirus and base your actions on things that you heard.March 13, 2021 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1956795
@Yserbius, if you believe every rumor /conspiracy theory you heard then the UFOs landed in New Mexico, Covid was made up with the Chinese and Mossad and UN is a grand plan to rule the world.
If the only proof that you can offer up is that a newspaper in Lakewood use to print obituaries and then stopped is very very very lame, I dont live in Lakewood so I dont even read it, I can tell you that the Yated and Hamodia that is the main source of print media in the Charadi community prints obituaries in every edition.
I have always said if your going to make a statement you should back it up with facts, as to my personal opnion in regards to Covid, there were multiple expert opinions out there, I follow my doctors advice when it can to medical iisues and my Ravs advice when it came to halacha.March 13, 2021 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1956819
It’s a rumor, one I’m inclined to believe.
Of course, because it fits your agenda. But it’s a bunch of malarkey. Made up by someone with the same preconceived notions as yours.March 14, 2021 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1956833
common >> @AAQ, how about I was in Lakewood and saw it first hand the purim went on as normal
I did not use google to tell me what happens in Lakewood on Purim. I used it to find Rabonim asking for precautions. It would be sad if you are right and all these youngeles did not hear or did not listen … I wish they were able to go to a yeshiva that teaches them to respect their elders.
I am still thinking that things are not as bad as you are saying. It is a matter of perception – we see people out and about and do not see those who are sitting at home. When I read YWN article about Ponevezh Rosh Yeshiva having a first public shiur in a year, and only to vaccinated students, I thought I never saw mentioned that he was not in public. Probably, there are other like that. So, I acknowledge your personal observation but refuse to believe lashon hara that noone listens to Rabbis at Lakewood.March 14, 2021 12:53 am at 12:53 am #1956834
Syag: unless you literally cut yourself off from all living beings, you probably got it somewhere in the following 12 months. Stop thinking everyone who got covid was negligent or ignorant
I am absolutely not claiming that everyone who got sick is at fault. And it is obvious that people have different circumstances – some taking care of patients or relatives, some send kids to grandparents because there is nowhere else to go, etc. At the same time, I am rejecting your fatalism that if it is dangerous out there, then we should give up on precautions. If I understand your description, you people are not very careful, then some of the sick people are due to your being not careful. You semi-acknowledge that those in your area who were slightly more careful got it a year later. This is, of course, already a great thing, as you are saying – as medical treatment now is better, about half of people getting sick a year later will pass away.. it is a big difference.March 14, 2021 1:06 am at 1:06 am #1956840
“At the same time, I am rejecting your fatalism that if it is dangerous out there, then we should give up on precautions. ”
You made that up. I never ascribed to such stupidity.
“If I understand your description, you people are not very careful, then some of the sick people are due to your being not careful. ”
Obviously you don’t understand.
“…as medical treatment now is better, about half of people getting sick a year later will pass away.. it is a big difference.”
Ch”v your fantasy should come true.
You cannot apply global statistics to a specific area. You can’t even apply local statistics to a different localitu. Do you not get it that just because you think something, doesn’t make it factual. You seem to have admitted thatif it doesn’t make sense to you than it didn’t happen. Wrll, kerp that in mind when you think you are having a two sided conversation.
You conveniently omitted the point – there is no expectation that you can avoid covid without the vaccine. People were expected to get it because careful doesn’t stop it. Therefore contracting covid does not equal negligence. (Second attempt)March 14, 2021 8:26 am at 8:26 am #1956896
@AAQ, first of all what are “youngeles” never heard of the word.
Second I doubt you ever stepped foot in Lakewood and for sure not in the past 20 years, Lakewood has grown from a small community centered around the yeshiva to a sprawling and growing community covering Dover, Brick, Tom River, Manchester, Jackson, Howell, There are over 300 shuls in the greater Lakewood area ranging from Satmar to Edut Mitzrach and the Rabbis of each have differnce of opinions on a wide variety of matters. FYI one of the busiest shuls in Lakewood happen to be Satmar where the mask enforement is pretty lax.
PS I find it ironic that you, who always knocks daas torah and moreh derech and doing your own thing when it come to halacha is all of a sudden so concerned about daas torahMarch 14, 2021 9:50 am at 9:50 am #1956926
Common – he doesn’t believe in daas torah but because you do he is implying that you should have obeyed. Unfortunately i don’t think he understands the intricacies of how it works as he earlier accused those paskening differently than Reb Chaim as being wayward or choosing to not call on him in order to provide their own independent psak.March 14, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1956947
Syag, Common, I am trying to learn from people here how they use daas Torah, and so far, I am coming empty-handed. I may have missed some posts, but I did not see anyone confirming that they personally asked a shaila and what kind of an answer they got. If you asked but were sworn to secrecy, just say so, I’ll respect that.
Syag > You cannot apply global statistics to a specific area.
While this is a great truth in general, and an area of my study and parnasah in particular, I think you are using this notion to support your denial. Are you saying that people in your area are great tzadikim have better outcomes than others? I think it is generally not recommended to draw on your zehuyot in this world. It could be that you are defining your community too narrow, so that you are randomly lucky. As an illustration, there is research showing that death rate in nursing homes is 50% higher when they are located near universities, with COVID unwittingly brought there by nurses who are also enrolled in school, despite them being careful. Would an individual nurse or a college student observe that connection? No.March 14, 2021 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1956952
AAQ- you can’t learn SaaS Torah this way. You are seemingly missing some basics and it needs to be explained in person, by someone who actually lives it and can explain it face to face while answering your questions.March 14, 2021 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1956954
“I think you are using this notion to support your denial. Are you saying that people in your area are great tzadikim have better outcomes than others?”
if that’s what you think then we are obviously still at an impasse. You have no clue what goes on in my area yet you feel free to tell me why my statements and observations don’t exist. Are you aware that you cannot have conversations with people if you cannot open yourself to the idea that you are lacking some information? Are you aware that you cannot take people’s statements and alter them to something they didn’t say? You think you are arguing points and really you are just talking to yourself while others here try to get a word in edgewise.March 14, 2021 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1956953
Common, you are right, I probably last been in Lakewood when R Wachtfogel Z’L was alive. I do keep us with the new. but in this case seeing is probably better than hearing indeed. So, thanks for assuring me that these were not yeshiva-connected people who did not listen to Roshei Yeshivot, but some Brooklyn transplants.March 14, 2021 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1956977
@AAQ, “Syag, Common, I am trying to learn from people here how they use daas Torah, and so far, I am coming empty-handed. I may have missed some posts, but I did not see anyone confirming that they personally asked a shaila and what kind of an answer they got.”
The concept of asking daas torah is deferring to someone who has a better grasp of halacha and you following the ruling even if it goes your strong held feelings, something that is very much an foreign concept for you, [for example if the Rabbi would have told same a statement to have a huge party you would have been all over them] you only believe in daas torah when it fits your agenda.
Btw the normal purim was celebrated by the broad spectrum of Lakewood not just a few Brooklyn transplants. As to your question of how people in Lakewood knew how celebrate purim, unlike you they dont consult Rabbi Google, they either have a person converation with the Rav, follow signs in shuls, or get instuctions from the local mosdos.
FYI Satmar has been in Lakwood for over 50 years, not recent transplantsMarch 14, 2021 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1956984
Common end haverav – you are not providing any positive explanations – what did you ask, what was the answer you got, and, hopefully, an explanation why this course of action is better than the other.
Explanation may help us understand to whom your ruling would be applicable.
And you are continue confusing me – so public pronouncements by Roshei Yeshivot are not of interest to anyone? Nobody follows Roshei Yeshivot but instead ask their own Rav? Do Roshei Yeshivot not have students? I am very confused by your claims.March 14, 2021 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1957010
Again, you are missing the basics. Just your questions indicate that you need to sit down with someone in real life who lives daas torah and let them teach you what it means. Not a pamphlet, someone who ascribes to modern orthodoxy, or someone who has written it off. Please. Do yourself a favor.March 14, 2021 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1957028
@AAQ, I dont live in Lakewood I was there on Thursday at a party hosted by my uncle and stayed till Friday morning, my uncle asked his daas torah exact wording I dont know or care. What I do know is what i saw not from Rabbi Google.
“And you are continue confusing me – so public pronouncements by Roshei Yeshivot are not of interest to anyone? Nobody follows Roshei Yeshivot but instead ask their own Rav? Do Roshei Yeshivot not have students? I am very confused by your claims.”
This is exactly what I am trying to get across to you, the greater Lakewood area has changed drasticly over the past 20 years to the point that the majority of Greater Lakewood is no longer affilated with BME, proof and point is well over half the 300 minyanim in greater Lakewood do not daven nusach ashkanaz, that not a point of disrepect its just they get the hadracha from a different source, [and not Rabbi Google either] all of Lakewood unites when it comes to where they have common ground for example the goverment trying to ram parameters of secular education down the throats of the yeshivas etc. Reb Malkiel Kotler Shilta and Satmar Rebbe Shilta sat side by side.March 14, 2021 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1957112
Syag: you are missing the basics.
Syag, I asked you and others multiple times to explain your position, either in simple terms or in theory. I even suggested at the top of this thread several references to such controversial MO Rabbis as Vilna Gaon, Netziv, Ball HaTanya. You continue saying that I am not getting it right and not telling me what is right.
You seemed appalled with some statements that sound non-controversial to me. To pick an example – that “Daas Torah” (if it exists) is a Democratic (or maybe more precisely, Republican) institution – there is a certain hierarchy with multiple branches up and everyone at each level makes selections whom to ask hard questions and this way Jewish community (hopefully) organizes around a Talmid Chacham. I am aware that Moshe Rabeinu was not selected this way. But this seems how things happen in our days. Is it different in your community? Do you follow a strict hereditary Rebbe – always to the oldest son?March 14, 2021 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1957118
Common, >> secular education down the throats… Satmar Rebbe Shilta sat side by side.
good example – does it mean they’ll tell everyone to not get secular education? Long ago, one person was invited by the Satmar Rebbe to be a doctor during a yom tov. When they had a minute to talk, he volunteered that he is not just a doctor, that he is getting a semicha soon … The response was – besser rofeh cholim mimatir asurim … Maybe the semicha was too modernishe, but stillMarch 14, 2021 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1957128
“Syag, I asked you and others multiple times to explain your position, ……You continue saying that I am not getting it right and not telling me what is right.”
Hullo? Hullo, is my microphone working? Testing, 1-2-3?
You asked, i said it is really important for you to find someone who can explain it in person. You responded by asking again. I responded by repeating that you really need to find someone who can explain it in person. To which you respond that I’m refusing to answer. Hullo?
Try the partners in torah program. A phone or zoom chavrusa will give you a solid regular timeslot for as long as you need to hash this out and ask all your questions. I implore you. Please.March 14, 2021 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1957163
@AAQ, “Long ago, one person was invited by the Satmar Rebbe to be a doctor during a yom tov. When they had a minute to talk, he volunteered that he is not just a doctor, that he is getting a semicha soon … The response was – besser rofeh cholim mimatir asurim”
Ever heard of the expression jack of all trades master of none.
FYI I happen to a Chasidsher guy who graduated college with a 3.75 GPA, I don’t need Moster and company and the Yaffed ilk telling me how to educate my kids and Satmar Rebbe and Rosh Yeshiva of BME don’t eitherMarch 15, 2021 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1957220
thanks for you suggestion to ask someone else. I appreciate your concern. Do not worry, I did and do learn with people who are probably closer to your attitude of D.T. We all are doing fine.
Common, jack of all trades – exactly.
>> how to educate my kids
I heard the names you are quoting, they do sound militant. This does not take away from possible problems in the community. As Hazon Ish mentioned to the Satmar Rebbe, that he is basing budding haredi system on the Rambam – that if one lives in a bad place, he needs to move, and if that is not possible – go to the desert. So, this successful desert community undoubtfully saved many people both in Israel and probably even more in USA. Still, being in the desert has negative sides, and we are well over 40 years at this point.March 15, 2021 7:49 am at 7:49 am #1957282
@AAQ, A MASTER OF NONE.
stick to one area and excell in that area, I look for a competent doctor and a Rav who is a talmud chochom and dont mix the two.
I stick to my area of expertise I dont pasken or do root canalMarch 15, 2021 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1957329
common, I agree with you on expertise. I am not sure whether we need to argue here. We seem to disagree though – you consider Torah learning akin to root canal. This is gross. I understand what you are saying that you want to ask hard question of someone more competent. I do not argue on that. This at the same time does take away your responsibility to understand the logic behind ruling, ask questions, and sometimes even to ask further. This is even true with the root canal. Your doctor should explain you the plan, answer your questions, and occasionally change it based on your input.March 15, 2021 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1957363
@AAQ, No I think one must be a mumcher [an expert] in his line, Rabbi Dr Twerski ztl refered his shailos to poskim inspite of having simicha, try to be everything for everyone you end up being a master of noneMarch 15, 2021 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1957504
common, you are attacking a strawman. I am not against expertise. We seem to disagree in these points:
1) you need to struggle to understand Torah according to your ability, not just outsource your halakhic decisions to an expert.
2) this especially concerns mitzvot bein adam l’havero and l’atzmo, as the answer depends on the person. So, if you don’t master some understanding, you’ll end up either asking shailos daily, or, more likely, applying right answers to wrong questions.
3) you need to be actually asking shailos- I don’t recall seeing here claiming they asked shailos about permission not to be careful during pandemic. or about permission to be careful if others are not.March 15, 2021 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1957507
Which circles back to not understanding the process. There are things you can learn about and look up, there are other things that are shailos. You can learn all you want and that will cut down your shailos but it doesn’t make them go away.
You seem to think that asking is to get information you don’t have. It’s about getting a resolution you are not qualified to make.
You also seem to think we wake up in the morning and submit our questions to a rabbi de jour. When you have a rav, you hear his shmoozin or his opinions or messages and you know how to proceed. If it’s your shul rav, he may get up and speak on purim conduct or madks, or listening to election podvasts. Then you know his opinion and follow it. You don’t have to call him and say, “what do i do about masks?”.
So there may or may not have bern shailos because many/most reveived tshuvos before the need to ask. And those who did have no need to post it here.
This is the tip of the iceberg. Very nice that you learn with someone who lives according to daas torah, my advice was to ask him how it works.March 15, 2021 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1957510
Syag, in your gut vort, you may be under-using your Rav by relying mostly on public pronouncements, as the answers may be different for different people. Maase HaRav (the one who is pro-DT). Shortly after I asked him re:kids and schools, he spoke at length on the topic at a seuda. On the way out, I said – “thanks”. He raised his brows – “I was talking to someone else”.
So, say, your Rav feels that he needs to encourage community to stay together despite pandemic. If you come to him and ask – my friends on YWNCR say that people might die, what would you advise me to do to make people safer without breaking that community spirit, maybe he will answer.March 16, 2021 1:06 am at 1:06 am #1957529
So you are implying my rav didn’t know people might die?
Or you’re implying that your definition of safety somehow is more legitimate?
Or you’re implying that even tho trusting my rav has more knowledge of this than you because i know he consulted with medical professionals, i should approach him and say 3 modern orthodox anonymous people online prefer to forgo rabbinical authority regarding covid when it doesn’t correspond with their own desires, who also don’t ask shailos because they don’t hold of daas torah to begin with want me to ask you if i should take their lead with pandemic guidelines because they said so even it doesn’t correspond with anything I’ve heard from doctors or studies?March 16, 2021 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1957534
I am not implying anything about your Rav. I am interested to hear his opinion and reasons.
I do have capacity and a degree (this is for Common, he only cares about certified opinions) to be able to process scientific literature and understand that there are a lot of unsafe things that can happen. We presented here lots of facts, not “modern orthodox” opinions. And we are not “ignoring rabbinical authority” as there are a lot of Rabbis of all flavors who pasken to be careful. I did not organize our outdoor minyan, a kollel-educated Rav did. Lakewoodish Rosh Kollel requires masks and wears one himself inside and outside. I also understand that there are trade-offs. One of them _might_ be based on what your congregation can handle.
But it goes to basic human nature: it seems that any human being would like to protect people around us. You are saying that your Rav says – no, you don’t have to, for whatever reasons. It sounds natural for you to ask – what is his reasoning, so you understand it and maybe explain to others, like us. And would he permit/advise you personally to be more careful? Seems like you are refusing to ask a shaila, not me.March 16, 2021 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1957537
What shaila am i refusing to adk and where do i mention having a shaila but not asking?
You keep asking me to ask your question and complaining that im not asking it. Why don’t you ask your question?
Here’s a moshol about safety that i hope you will understand, or at least not butcher.
A 75 year old man is driving down a 35mph street at 20 miles an hour. His reflexes are slower than they used to be so 20 feels about as fast as 40 used to feel. A young kid zooms past him at 35 mph and the old man jolts, goes on high alert, and curses out the teen for recklessly speeding by.
The old man believes the teen was speeding recklessly. That was his perspective and you won’t change his mind. He will swear this teen whizzed past him, he felt the woosh, he saw the blur. And because he believes himself to be the baseline, that teen will forever remain reckless in his eyes.
I have good solid science telling me you (and yserbius) are that old man and i will forever remain, in your eyes, a reckless teen. But that doesn’t make it true. It’s just a pitfall of declaring yourself the baseline.March 16, 2021 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1957539
I didn’t say they were mordern orthodox opinions. I said it was opinions of modern orthodox posters who don’t hold of daas torah. And i don’t know about your facts, but your adjectives were problematic. For example if covid kills x% of the population, that is not the same as saying that if i don’t wear a mask i will cause x% to die. No scientist would get away with that manipulation. No poster should either.March 16, 2021 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1957580
@AAQ,” I do have capacity and a degree (this is for Common, he only cares about certified opinions) to be able to process scientific literature and understand that there are a lot of unsafe things that can happen. ”
How is this for a shocker, so do I, in fact I worked for the goverment in managing crises of this nature but I am not a MD nor am I a Rabbi and I defer to both, and I know the latter is a foreign concept to you.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.