October 20, 2010 4:54 am at 4:54 am #592705
Why is it that in Bais Medreshes people just tend NOT to put away thier seforim after learning from them. The Stiepler writes that it is a “midas achzuries” Not to put your seforim away. Firstly the next person that wants to learn from that sefer will have to go on a hunt just to find the sefer, because some selfish person didn’t put it away after his own use. Also it is so not bekovodik to walk in to a BM and you have no where to sit down because all the tables are stacked up with seforim. What do people think? Do they do the same in thier own house as well? What is a BM or shul any different? Who is excpected to clean up after you?October 20, 2010 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #702426I can only tryMember
If this topic seems familiar…October 20, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #702427YW Moderator-80Member
Why is it that in Bais Medreshes people just tend NOT to put away thier seforim after learning from them
why dont we amend that to: Why is it that in Bais Medreshes some people…October 20, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #702428WolfishMusingsParticipant
Answer: They hold that their learning is more important and valuable than yours. Not putting a sefer back wastes your time but not theirs. After all, for them, talmud torah kneged kulam, tartei mashma.
That’s funny, considering that I hold that everyone’s learning is more important than mine. As such, I will often put away all the seforim after Ma’ariv. Yes, I know I could learn instead, I suppose, but my learning is not very valuable (in comparison to others) anyway.
The WolfOctober 20, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #702429cherrybimParticipant
GIVEN: Some (many) people are uncaring rude slobs who don’t put back s’farim; and they leave their dirty cups and tissues on the table; and they look at a sefer during the Rav’s drasha (this is literally r’tzicha).
OUR RESPONCE: Be responsible for your own table when you arrive and leave. Put away the s’farim; put their dirty tissues in the trash using a clean tissue; and do give musser to the rotzeach no matter how frum looking he is.October 20, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #702430
Everyones learning is important. Its not a matter of who’s is more important and its not our place to make that cheshbon although whoever learns more Lishma is more important but we have no way of knowing that. Please don’t shortchange your limud hatorah, a person who cares about the shul and cleans up after others is someone who has good intentions therefore I would think his Torah is VERY CHASHUV by Hashem!October 20, 2010 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #702431
shlomozalmen – Bimechilas Kavodchach, Im sorry put the stiepler seems to be arguing with you, he calls it achzuries, and one who does so is a RUSHA. Besides to put a sefer away takes maybe a minute, to search for a sefer can take many many more minutes.October 20, 2010 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #702432AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
I will go even further…
Not only do (many) people NOT return the seforim, they show no kavod ha’brios or K’vod bais ha’knesses by the following…
–They turn chairs around from the next table in the shul/bais medrash so they can face the person they are learning with (fine)-and then leave them that way (not fine)!
–They take people’s personal table shtenders from other tables to use themselves (fine) but don’t put them back where they took them from, -so the owners have to go searching for their shtender (not fine!)
–They leave a pile of dirty tissues and/or dirty cups or food wrappers on the tables.
Question: How much is a person’s learning worth when he has no concept of respect for others?!?October 20, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #702433WolfishMusingsParticipant
Please don’t shortchange your limud hatorah, a person who cares about the shul and cleans up after others is someone who has good intentions therefore I would think his Torah is VERY CHASHUV by Hashem!
Ah, but then it’s a Catch-22, no? If I stop cleaning up to learn a few minutes more myself, then I’m no longer someone who cares about the shul — as such, my learning is not as chashuv… 🙂
The WolfOctober 20, 2010 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #702434
Actually, there’s a time and place for everything. I don’t think its proper to clean up after everyone if its going to take away from your “Torah time.” If you set a certain amount of time you learn a day or you have a set quantity you learn a day and you cut it short to clean up I’m not so sure that’s a good move. Cleaning up the Shul is a nice thing but should be done on your own time, (ie, if you take 3 hours leisure time a day/night factor the time it takes to clean up, into that time, it is probably an aveira to learn less Torah, just to clean up). If you clean up after yourself you care about the shul, if you clean up after everyone, it means you care more. Then again there could be people in the shul who care just as much as you and would clean up after everyone but they really don’t have the time. In such a case machshavah is kamaysoh (if one has intention to do a mitzvah but he is an ones and he wasn’t able to Hashem considers it as if he did it)October 20, 2010 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #702435
Does that mean that those people that dont put away seforim is because they dont have a spare minute in the day? Halivie! Every second is Mamish tied up? I dont think there is anyone that can’t find 1 minute out of his liesure time to take off to put away seforim. (no one says it must be taken off of your learning time)October 20, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #702436
Does that mean that those people that dont put away seforim is because they dont have a spare minute in the day? Halivie! Every second is Mamish tied up? I dont think there is anyone that can’t find 1 minute out of his liesure time to take off to put away seforim. (no one says it must be taken off of your learning time)October 20, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #702437Shouldnt be hereMember
In BMG Minyan BP there is a copy of ???? ? ????? posted
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Any volunteers to transcrine/translate ?October 21, 2010 1:09 am at 1:09 am #702438mosheroseMember
“but my learning is not very valuable (in comparison to others) anyway.”
Ive never met someone who wasnt machshiv his learning. Only an apikorus would go around saying that learning Torah is not valuable.October 21, 2010 2:16 am at 2:16 am #702439
Why do you put up with mosherose? He is clearly here to instigate and antagonize others.October 21, 2010 2:27 am at 2:27 am #702440NEEDIDEASMember
As a person that puts seforim away after use of seforim and as a person that puts away all the seforim left out on the tables, shtenders, and the like… People Do sometimes forget.I would rather be dan lekav Zechus on everyone… Although i must say i can spend hours putting away seforim left out by other people… Just a friendly reminder no one is perfect….October 21, 2010 2:31 am at 2:31 am #702441minyan galMember
MosheRose: Nowhere in his posting did he say that learning Torah is not valuable – reread it carefully. What he said was that he places a higher value on other people’s learning than on his own – meaning that others feel they are “too learned” to put away books but that he is more mentchlichkeit and will take a few moments to tidy up. At least that is how I interpreted the post. I believe it was worded the way it was because he is far too modest and too much of a gentleman to blow his own horn. The post definitely does NOT say Torah learning is not valuable.October 21, 2010 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #702442
mosherose – you misseed the boat! what wolf was saying was is that he doesnt hold of himself as the biggest talmid chochom in the world, which is a huge mailah, you can see his anivus and humility. You on the other hand are saying that one has to hold of himself as the biggest godal hador, and there is pushit no room to improve, nebach! Do you hold of yourself as greater than Reb chaim Kanivevsky ?
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