July 2, 2023 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #2204978MosheKapoyerParticipant
When you begin a post changing someone’s name to Aveirah and then accusing them of hate, the rest of the post becomes moot.
I am honestly getting tired of all the petty nastiness coming through and should have closed this thread ages ago.July 2, 2023 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #2204982Yserbius123Participant
Dear Yechi HaMelech @chochom,
If you’re going to accept Likutei Sichos as an important basis of your Yiddishkeit, than surely you accept the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s repeated statements that he’s no Moshiach and begging the messianics to stop their activities as true too, no? So then by that logic, it’s impossible for the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach.July 3, 2023 10:24 am at 10:24 am #2205109MosheKapoyerParticipant
This is a fascinating one sided conversation, with the ‘moderator’ taking sides of what to publish and what to label as ‘hate’.
Your site has become one of Loshon Hora, and Rechilus and Sinas chinom. May you pay the price for this.
what exactly do you think my role is supposed to be if not to ‘take sides’ of what to publish. Of course I will pay the price. And bez”H I will also be rewarded.
As an aside- your post accused him of hate, in those words. There were no sides to take.July 3, 2023 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2205297אדירבמלוכהParticipant
I don’t per-se have a problem with Chabad. Not only that, but I admire many things about it. I love both the Rebbe and the Alter Rebbe’s Torah. In terms of ‘Chabad Torah’, I really appreciate the ‘Rational’ Chassidus of Chabad – it’s grounded, rational, enlightening and makes סתרי תורה understandable and accessible. I also appreciate how Chabadniks have a real צפייה לישועה – something many religious factions of Judaism sadly lack – and I also greatly admire the grounded nature and obvious צידקות of the Rebbe. I also am terribly sad with the way that the great Chabad (and, more broadly, Chasidic) Rebbe’s and thinkers (shout out to R’ Steinsaltz) are completely ignored, or perceived negatively, despite them obviously being of immense stature, by the litvishe world of which I am a part.
However, I do also struggle with certain aspects of Chabad. Primarily this is often due to more segregated and close minded aspects I see within it. I feel like this seeps into many partsof Chabad life and I’ve seen it with my (moderate) Chabad friends in numerous different ways:
1) You are expected to marry Chabad – I know a Chabad girl who met a really nice, serious litivishe guy who was even frummer than her in all walks of Yiddishkeit, but her father disdained her marrying ‘out’ and nearly tore her apart trying to prevent the relationship going ahead… How do you expect to ever not be perceived as different by more moderate and broad members of Klal Yisrael when they see that?
2) Men must have a beard – speaking as someone who only knows more moderate (a term I don’t mean disparagingly at all, by the way) Chabadniks who are integrated into Ashkenazic society where I live, despite all their peers and everyone they are around their whole lives and in broader society being clean shaven, they either have a beard or are an extreme dissapointment to their parents. I understand the importance of having a beard and the spiritual significance – I myself have a beard for that reason! And yet, how can you put your child in such a difficult social situation where they will almost immediately be somewhat of an outcast (unfortunately)? At the end of the day there are plenty of poskim who allow shaving, and even if is far from ideal, יש על מה לסמוך, and in todays climate in חוץ לארץ we should not be forcing kids to have a beard, forcing them to choose between social and societal acceptance or their religion! We need to learn to adapt and rely on the poskim להקל even when it’s not ideal, if that’s what the times require! In general, this is something I think Chabad isn’t the best at – it struggles to see outside it’s box of values, and occasionally rely on opinions outside it’s own core faction, when neccessary in order to be a part of society – and especially Jewish society – at large, and be a part of the rest of Jewish society. This is something it needs to learn from the other Chassidus’, which have integrated really really well in general over the past 80 years with the Litvish Chareidi (!) society they used to be so disparate from. I wish to see the day Chabad learns how to integrate better into the rest of society!
3) The perspective on the Rebbe – for now I don’t speak of the real, true messianic Chabadniks. Even other, more moderate, Chabadniks become close-minded when it comes to the Rebbe. The Rebbe was a real Godol, and I get that he will never mean as much for me as he does for a Chabadnik, but just like all other great Jewish leaders he was a person at the end of the day. He can be critiqued, he can make mistakes, you can quote dissenting opinions… And yet, Chabad revere the Rebbe so much that they often don’t seem to bother learning other Torah’s with other view-points. Just like it’s a shame the litivishe world can’t see the value of Chabad, it’s a shame Chabad can’t seem to see the value of other gedolim and rabbonim. Theirs a wealth of revered gedolim that we have in recent Jewish history and I genuinely believe we want to encourage a socoiety where all can be learned and their Torah can be revered – whether it is the The Chazon Ish, Rav Kook, The Rebbe, Chassidus, neo-Chassidus, R’ Ashlag, R’ Soloveitchik, etc., etc., to name a few. Chabad takes a step back with this, as all Torah that is not strictly Chabad, and in particularly the Rebbe and the Alter Rebbe, is virtually null and void and irrelevant. This is a great shame.
4) The slightly-extreme-almost-sabbatical-messianism-a-lot-of-Chabad-has-regarding-the-Rebbe – This topic has been exhausted, so I won’t dwell on it. The only thing I’d add is that the more I’ve seen of Chabad, the more I’ve seen it’s not just a small, fringe, radical part of Chabad, but rather far more pervasive even amongst so called ‘moderate’ / ‘normal’ Chabadniks then I had orginally thought. How far it spreads, I’m not sure… Perhaps the OP can shed more light on this for the rest of us… What percentage of Chabad really believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? What nuances lie there-in (i.e., how many simply view him as a ניצוץ of Moshiach, how many believe he is dead but Moshiach, how many believe he is not even dead, etc., etc…)? Either way, I have personally found that the more I see Chabadniks in their so-called ‘natural habitat’ and the more comfortable they become around you, the more I see the slightly radical and imo unhinged messianic opinions creep to the surface.
Lastly, when not among Chabadniks, the rest of us barely ever speak about Chabad. It is only really when talking with Chabad people. The CR is not representative at all of larger Judaism.July 3, 2023 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #2205316
square root: If mashiach-from-the-dead really is possible, then why did NOBODY in Chabad / Lubavich believe in mashiach-from-the-dead when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was still alive and healthy?
actually before 3 tamuz many litvakts had that claim that moshiach cant be someone alive today cuz of the yeridas hadoros, moshiach must be from the dead. look in yated from those years, or Wikipedia.
but ok so you have a good question? now what? anyway before Lubavitch said the rebbe is moshiach, the world didn’t speak much about itJuly 3, 2023 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2205334Yserbius123Participant
@sechel83 The Meshichisters created a l’mafreya concept of Moshiach from the dead, claiming it’s always existed. At no point in (literally hundreds) of false Moshiachs and Moshiach cults that we have spawned in the last 2000+ years, has anyone announced a Moshiach who was dead. Until 1996.
@vdnrtakh1 AdirBMelucha. I disagree with points one and two. Most frum Jews are reluctant to allow their children to marry someone from a different background. Shtarkeh Chassidim won’t marry Litvaks, many Sephardim won’t marry Ashkenazim, a Yeshivhishe family won’t marry into a Vizhnitzer family. Especially Chabad which expects a certain lifestyle of shlichus and other practices that a non-Chabad family may not want. As for beards, it’s a Chassidishe thing. The issur of shaving also includes scissoring away the entire beard.July 3, 2023 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2205348
You’ll find just as many threads if not more about Zionism, YU, the MO in general, etc.
The YWN CR is like a never ending cage match between sects. By now, most of the people here have an understanding that that’s the primary focus.
As for there being some feeling of bias, you guys really want to act shocked that Yeshiva World News has a yeshivish bias? The Chabad sites will have a Chabad bias, the Modern sites will have a Modern bias, etc. If you want unbiased you probably have to go to a place altogether unassociated with frumkeit.
As for the assertion that this happens in real life as well… If the immediate topic of discussion every time you talk to people is issues with Chabad, you may need to ask who the real problem is. Could it be that you aren’t being quite as subtle with your agenda as you think?July 4, 2023 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2205592CTLAWYERParticipant
Anecdotal story time……………………….
At the extreme edge of my small town there is a small Chabad operation with a little shul attached. In all these years I have never been there, as It is far too long a walk and they don’t hold weekday services.
During my shloshim for Mrs. CTL, the Chabad rabbi was called for a tenth for a evening minyan at my regular Litvish minyan. He arrived, no questions asked. I had met him about town over the years, but have had no personal relationship.
Sunday at 6 PM my cell phone rang and it was the same local Chabad Rabbi. He had yarhzeit starting that night and could I come at 9PM for Maariv. I explained that I’d be 15 minutes further away at Mincha-Maariv starting at 8:15 and could not guaranty arriving for 9. He replied, I know we are on you way home, if you commit, we’ll hold off until you arrive, as we can’t start without 10.
Upon arrival, I noticed large Melech HaMoshiach posters on the rear wall of the shul. there were no posters or pictures that could be construed as icons on the eastern wall. I stood for Borchu, sat to learn, and made the appropriate responses and made recited the mourner’s kadish. At the end of the minyan, the rabbi asked if I could attend Monday morning. I replied that I’d be at my regular minyan and that my talis and tephiilin were there. He asked what time we daven and I said 6:30, he replied, great we’ll daven at 8. So Monday morning after my regular minyan, I drove to Chabad. I walked in sat down with a sefer to learn at a side table. I got up to look for a sefer on their shelves and the rabbi rushed over to assist, asked what I was looking for and handed me an all Hebrew and another with translation if I so desired. I thanked him and sat down. Turns out two others from my regular minyan showed up at 8 to make sure there was a minyan. They sat with me. I mentioned the posters on the wall and both said that they have seen the posters in the past, but never has one word been uttered when they were present about the Rebbe as Moshiach.
After minyan, I has a coffee and sat and talked with the Rabbi for half an hour. Again, no mention of the posters or the Moshiach agenda. I certainly did not question it.
If this is a belief within their sect, but no attempt is made to spread it, I cannot be publicly critical. Nothing about the minyan seemed odd, the men there were either old or college students, all with the same purpose in mind. To make sure there was a minyan for the Yahrzeit and daven.
This was not the in your face Chabad I know from the big cities.July 4, 2023 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #2205615
I have had the same experience with chabad at my city of birthJuly 5, 2023 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2205950
somehow every chabad topic turns to moshiach.
b”h chabad taught the world to think about moshiach, i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew and acceptance, non judging of every jew will spread to the rest of the world, and we will great moshiach very soon.July 5, 2023 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2205963
Sechel, the chofetz Chaim was responsible for getting klal yisroel ready for moshiach. He opened a Kolel to learn kodshim in preparation for moshiach, he talked about geulah all the time, he wrote seforim about it… He told people that we’re in ikvesa demishicha, as did his talmid rav elchanan wasserman, who wrote a sefer by that name.
Many chasidishe rebbes did the same.
What was different about Lubavitch, was that moshiach went from being the redemption from physical and spiritual galus, to being the motivating factor behind doing mitzvos. That’s something that the gedolim objected to, because we do mitzvos because Hashem says so, not to bring moshiach.July 5, 2023 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2205964
“i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew”
Except for actual frum yidden.July 5, 2023 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2205974
“i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew“
Except for Rav Shach and every snagJuly 6, 2023 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #2206103
Neville and coffee-addict, you upset me by beating me to it!July 6, 2023 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #2206149
Did you really just claim that no messianic movement ever started ever continued to claim someone was moshiach after he died?? Thats not in the slightest true. It’s in fact a reoccuring phenomena and has occured throughout the ages. As a reminder, it is not a good attribute to talk on things u have not done any reading on, its a disservice to those reading your comments and to yourself.
Very famously this happened with Shabtai tzvi. The Rambam likewise mentions people who believed their moshiach would return. followers of David Alroy likewise continued after his death. The list goes on.July 6, 2023 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #2206160
Ortho: “Did you really just claim that no messianic movement ever started ever continued to claim someone was moshiach after he died?? Thats not in the slightest true. It’s in fact a reoccuring phenomena and has occured throughout the ages… Very famously this happened with Shabtai tzvi.”
Just remember, you’re the one who said it!July 6, 2023 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #2206204
Ortho…those were all false messiahs with followers who went off the derech, except maybe in the case of Alroi; there isn’t a clear version of what exactly happened, but according to Binyomin toleda he had followers who didn’t give up after his death, for a short time, but…they were just wrong; they just couldn’t accept it, but the movement died out not too long after.
The other poster was referring to legitimate movements, yeshivos, chasidusen, communities…no gedolim are on record accepting this idea.July 6, 2023 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #2206213
I know u want this to somehow be a point, but for the life of me i dont see how it is one without beginning the questionJuly 6, 2023 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2206222
You’re using SZ as a proof that it’s justifiable to say that the Lubavicher rebbe can be Mashiach after he died!
Allow me to point out that SZ was most definitely not Mashiach, and neither is LEHAVDIL (I put that in capitals so that you won’t miss it) the Lubaviche rebbe.July 6, 2023 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #2206245
so the chofetz chayim promoted ahavas yisroel and being carefull about lashon hara. we should all be more carefull in that. yes chabad believes that hashem created the world to have a dirah bitachtonim, which we accomplish by every mitzvah we do, it will be completed when moshiach comes – see tanya perekim 36-37. actually this idea is the most in line with doing mitzvos only to fullfill the ratzon of hashem. too deep to explain. learn hemshach yom tov shel rosh hashana 5666 to understand at length (close to 1 thousend pages) or at least the first 100 pages or so to get an idea. one point, all the other reasons it says in gemara, medrash, zohar, are all reasons that are intellectual, נתאוה הקב”ה להיות לו דירה בתחתונים is only because hashem was נתאוה. there is no reason why hashem desires this. and no gain either to hashem or us. only hashem desires.July 6, 2023 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2206248
i think every chabadsker loves rav shach and all misnagdim. that dosent mean i need to follow him, or accept was he said, or think he was a tzadik (al pi tanya, obviously him and every other jew is a tzadim – veamach kulom tzadikim)July 6, 2023 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #2206254
Oh my… Did he seriously just use Shabbatei Tzvi (and implicitly also Yushke and any other dead moshiach) as an argument in FAVOR of Chabad meshichism?
Dude, unless you’re a double-agent for the anti-Chabad side, you might want to take a little break from this thread. You know it’s bad when RSo (the evil misnaged) is more strict about saying “lehavdil” so people won’t think he’s comparing the Rebbe to SZ than you are.July 6, 2023 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #2206263
“i think every chabadsker loves rav shach“
Well you’re mistaken
I know a Lubavitcher that put up his middle finger when Rav shach’s name was mentioned
If you loved misnagdim you wouldn’t call them snags it’s like a person that’s calls Jews the k word and says he loves all jewsJuly 7, 2023 8:36 am at 8:36 am #2206270
Right… Being against the Lubavitcher rebbe automatically makes someone not a tzadik… Do you think that the gra and the noda byehudah were not tzadikim because they opposed the baal shem tov? Of course I don’t think a comparison is warranted, but for a completely opposite reason you doJuly 7, 2023 8:43 am at 8:43 am #2206288
““i think every chabadsker loves rav shach“
Well you’re mistaken”
Of course he is, and he knows it. Dishonest comments like that aren’t actually directed at people like you and me who obviously know better. They’re for the clueless onlooker who might still have a chance of being fooled.July 7, 2023 8:52 am at 8:52 am #2206302
“If you loved misnagdim you wouldn’t call them snags”
Regarding your obsession with this “snag” illusion, I feel the need to emphasize once again:
The term snag is rarely heard in Chabad. It is used mainly by immature bochurim in yeshiva, and I’ve never heard the word said by an adult.
Most adults who don’t hang out with young bochurim or online don’t even know the term.
(Talking about immature bochurim, I will refrain from getting into the filthy curses heard from the mouths of countless Yiddishe bochurim and children (as young as 9-10 years old! – chassidish and litvish alike) toward Lubavitchers during joint summer camp trips and the like.
בדידי הוה עובדא, וכו”כ פעמים. ואין להאריך בדבר המבהיל)
Non-chassidim are usually referred to as “litvishers” or “olamishers”.
If addressing a non-Lubavitcher who attacks Chabad, they are usually referred to as “misnaged”.
I don’t know why you are so obsessed with this fabrication that Lubavitchers call them snags.
As I’ve said before, this is a machlokes b’metzius. I think that as a Lubavitcher I would know the metzius better.July 7, 2023 10:41 am at 10:41 am #2206380JudeParticipant
My point of 2nd July has been missed by the coffee room participants. Only G-d’s name may not be uttered in the bathhouse. If Lubavitchers won’t say the word “Rebbe” in the mikve changing room, then they are deifying him.July 7, 2023 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2206403
I have heard many adults use the term snag as denigrating Litvishe and non-Lubavich chassidim.July 7, 2023 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #2206408
“You’re using SZ as a proof that it’s justifiable to say that the Lubavicher rebbe can be Mashiach after he died!”
“Oh my… Did he seriously just use Shabbatei Tzvi (and implicitly also Yushke and any other dead moshiach) as an argument in FAVOR of Chabad meshichism?”
Except im not, that would be stupid. Im actually shocked that there is no critical reading going on here. What i responded to was “At no point in (literally hundreds) of false Moshiachs and Moshiach cults that we have spawned in the last 2000+ years, has anyone announced a Moshiach who was dead. Until 1996.”. The claim that no false moshiachs or moshiach cults ever claimed this isnt true and shabtai tzv would be a valid example of what was claimed here as the words “false moshiach” and “moshiach cults” were used.July 7, 2023 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #2206409
“The other poster was referring to legitimate movements, yeshivos, chasidusen, communities…no gedolim are on record accepting this idea.”
“False messiahs” and “messianic cults” arent exactly the phrasing i would use for “Legitimate movements”. Now we are switching it from movements to gedolim. As ive already mentioned in the previous thread there were people who did continue to believe in their rebbe after their passing, very great talmidei chachamim and tzadikim(the shtefaneshter rebbe was a known baal mofes). But naturally what i expect for u to do(which is al derech what berger does) is to make broad declarations that moshiach from the dead isnt a thing in judaism, and when given sources pull the line back to well its a das yachid, and then to well to well they are just pirushim, to well no legitimate jews ever claimed it in real life to no LEARNED jews ever claimed it in real life, to then well no gedolim. And who is a gadol? Well whoever u define gadol as. Shkoyach. its disingenuous argument and a gaps argument. Much like people who argue well g-d must exist because science cant account for X, they find a way to account for x and u pull the line back to something else. it’s a losing and weak position.July 7, 2023 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2206419
Ortho, still waiting on that shtefanister quote – it seems to be lost and not readily available. You’d think such a thing would be easily accessible, no? I also asked a rov im friendly with whos a rizhiner einikel; he gave me a blank stare for a few seconds and asked what i was looking at online, and that he is shocked that im engaging with such….im not going to repeat the insult…on the internet who could think that moshiach is from the maysim. He said it’s like debating missionaries.
I’m not defining gedolim. The examples you gave, shabsai yzvi(!!!) dovid alreoi, etc… Were not recognized as gedolim by anyone of stature even in chabads circles – does chabad believe that shabsai tzvi was a gadol and that his followers after his conversion to islam and death were gedolim? If they do, then i believe that speaks for itself.
You can name one rishon or acharon whose name is mentioned in any current beis medrash, including chabad, who believed in a dead specific person as the messiah after their death,and I’ll listen. But you can’t, because it doesn’t exist.July 7, 2023 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #2206455
“It is used mainly by immature bochurim in yeshiva”
That’s still an issue. It’s not normal for yeshiva bochrim to use slurs about other types of yidden. That’s not “kid’s being kid’s.” That’s a serious problem that your community needs to address. Also, if no adults ever use it, then where do the kids learn it? They re-invent the word every generation?
“The claim that no false moshiachs or moshiach cults ever claimed this isnt true and shabtai tzv would be a valid example of what was claimed here as the words “false moshiach” and “moshiach cults” were used.”
OK, so perfect. You agree that Chabad fits perfectly in line with all prior false moshiach cults. Can we be done then?July 7, 2023 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #2206460
Ur being ridiculous and clearly ur Ruzhiner einikel doesn’t know his own sources.
I already told u about the Sefer and where u can go looking for the quote 2 or more times. I am not allowed to post links or pictures here so I cannot show u it, as is obvious. It’s a rather cruel and illogical trick to know I can’t send u anything here and then fault me for not sending it to u then tell me it’s because it doesn’t exist. I assure u it does exist. I’m pretty sure I even offered up to send it to u over email. U didn’t respond. Don’t blame me for ur nonsense. I likewise said u could find the Baal Shem tov quote on sefaria and even told u what words to type to find it(because again I can’t send it here) and I likewise received no response. Just ridiculous. “Because it doesn’t exist” I’m glad u are making ur bias known. When u eat your words I’ll enjoy watching, and don’t try to quickly change the subject. I want a clear upfront apology on this website and for u to be modeh Al haemes. For ur sake I’ll say it again: kerem beis yisroel is the name of the Sefer. Otzar has likuttim from sadigura etc which quote it. Tell me ur Twitter handle and I’ll send it to u on there even. Nobody has backed away from proving hereJuly 7, 2023 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2206466
Ur again being disingenuous as to the flow of this conversation. Nowhere did I list any of the people u mentioned as gedolim. I already repeated the claim I was addressing which, again, included less than respectable people hence the reference to shabtai tzvi. I didn’t even claim dovid alroys followers were gedolim. I only used it as an example of people who are legitimate Jewish people that produced these claims. U have now, seeing that I have things to say about movements and even talmidei chachamim who do not dismiss this idea, taken refuge in ur favorite word gedolim defining who is a gadol per ur desire and thereby somehow attempting to win this argument because no gadol ever said it themselves on somebody. Cool. Ur losing ground and making excusesJuly 7, 2023 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #2206467
I could have sworn I quoted the entire thing before but here is the quote (again) don’t try to paint me as someone who can’t quote. These are clear words, again searchable on otzar. U can buy otzar for a day for 7 bucks. No excuse not to look it up(and no btw the book is very hard to find. Idk if even otzar has it. But it does have publications which quote it):
בשנת ת”ר היה נגמר בדעת העולם שאבי יהיה משיח. ואחר הסתלקותו היה היסח הדעת בכל העולם. אבל האמת היא. כפי מה ששמעתי מא”מ זצ”ל קודם הסתלקותו ב’ דברים. כי קודם הסתלקותו הניח צוואה לכל אחד ואחד בפני עצמו. וזהו הב’ דברים ששמעתי א’ מפני מה אין הולכים על קברי הצדיקים כמו בחייהם. והב’, מה שאמחז”ל מביאת הגאולה עד תחה”מ מ’ שנה, אומר אני אימתי היה כך אם היה ביאת הגואל מקודם ב’ או ג’ מאות שנה היה צריך להיות מ’ שנה מביאת הגואל עד תחה”מ, אבל עכשיו אומר אני שיהיה ביאת הגואל עם תחה”מ ביום אחד ולפי הב’ דברים ששמעתי מא”מ זצ”ל, או”א שאבי בעצמו יקום ויהיה משיח. סליק
-כרם בית ישראל דף קיא. רבי מנחם נחום פרידמן משטיפינעשט זיע”א בן של ישראל פרידמןJuly 7, 2023 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2206468
That’s a twist of my words. I expected better from someone who claims to be of superior Torah learning to advance such a clear misapplication of my words. That someone was claimed to be moshiach after they died was said by legitimate and illegitimate movements. This is again, the illogical argument of guilt of similarity. Christians also believe moshe gave the 10 commandments shall we throw those out to? The problem is u are not demonstrating but presupposing that this similarity of min hameisim is somehow the only time u can’t have something in common with another religion and is problematic. So far I’m the only one to quote actual Torah sources. And when no response can be given I just get skepticism and dismissive hand waving and a question of my motives. All of these are not proper responsesJuly 7, 2023 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2206485HaLeiViParticipant
“Also, if no adults ever use it, then where do the kids learn it? They re-invent the word every generation?”
This one doesn’t work. Have you never heard the Chazak Chazak, cake, snake song from kids? Do you think adults taught it to them? There are tons of things that nursery kids get from previous nursery kids, without passing first grade.July 7, 2023 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2206477
So you’re using the source that he can come from the dead by a person that says his father is moshiach but you’re arguing that his father is moshiach?
He would say the rebbe isn’t moshiach because it’s his fatherJuly 7, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2206480
Ortho, if you need to dig for a sefer that’s not readily available in a fully stocked chasidishe beis medrash, then it begs the question…why is this not known in rizhiner circles, or any non chabad messianic circles? Why is this sefer so hard to find that ltzar hachochma only quotes someone who says it without the original? I personally don’t have otzar hachochma. My beis medrash used to, my current one does not; I’ll give it a look when i get a chance, but the words really don’t sound authentic. They’re not in the style of sifrei chasidus; they appear written by a current day person; but I’ll accept it if it can be shown to be authentic.
What i will not accept is the assertion that this belief is common in rizhiner related chasidusen. Go to a beis medrash anywhere, in the states or eretz yisroel, and find a rebbe, magid shiur, or even an educated yungerman who has heard of this – you won’t. Because it’s a completely unheard-of idea.
Im not defining gedolim. I said that shabsai tzvi and the other names you mentioned are not valid; what did you attempt to prove from their existence? They only show that there are deviant movements in the jewish community, and that they don’t last very long. Chabad will join that list pretty soon, as it’s been around 30 years. I give the messianics about 10 more years before it branches off into people who totally reject messianism, embrace normative judaism with their chasidus, and those who go the way of shabsai tzvi, and create a new, short lived movement of weirdos, just like shabsai tzvi, frank, dovid alroi(who i had never heard of – thanks for the history lesson)
As for rabbi zev leff; not every rov, talmid chacham, rosh yeshiva, etc…are known to be gedolei yisroel. Lakewood is full of 38 year old roshei yeshiva and kollelim; they’re not all gedolim. The term might be subjective, but we all know one when we see one, and rav leff has not done what gedolei yisroel are known for. He’s a rov and a fine person, but he’s not baal habayis on yiddishkeit, and he is not a spokesperson for the Yeshiva world…and he’d be the first person to tell you that. A Lubavitcher chossid has as much business telling litvishe who our gedolim are as we do telling a Lubavitcher which rebbe of theirs was bigger or who they should consider gedolim; i don’t know much about chabad beyond my learning tanya, some likutei torah, and a few pieces from the rashab.
But i do know what the non chabad gedolim said about the last Lubavitcher rebbe, and they were qualified to do so. I also know many rabbonim who left chabad when he took over, including rav nesanel quinn, and many in Yerushalayim.July 9, 2023 2:54 am at 2:54 am #2206628
Neville, you insulted me greatly with this description: “RSo (the evil misnaged)”. I would much rather you had called me by my correct title: SNAG!
Now down to less serious stuff. I find it interesting that with all the back and forth no one – including Ortho – has answered the claim, mentioned by a number of posters, that before Gimmel Tammuz the proof that the Lubavicher rebbe was Mashiach was that Mashiach HAS TO BE SOMEONE ALIVE at the time. And don’t tell me that that isn’t true. It’s 100% true.
As I wrote earlier – perhaps in a different thread – I heard many many times, “Look around. Who is greater nowadays than the Lubavicher rebbe? And Mashiach has to be someone alive, so he must be Mashiach.”
Then, during the levayah (that did or did not take place; it depends on whom you ask in Lubavich) papers were distributed that implied that the Lubavicher rebbe said that Mashiach can be someone who had died. This was NOT an acceptable opinion on Beis Tammuz! Ortho, I don’t know how long you’ve been around Lubavich, but I venture to say that I have been around much much longer, so please don’t try arguing with me what the official Lubavich policy was prior to Gimmel Tammuz.
Again, as I’ve said in the past, people who can blithely change what to them was one of the ikarei emunah to suit themselves, never had an ounce of emunah. Not beforehand and not afterwards.July 9, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2206638yankel berelParticipant
Same was argued in defense of J and Mo –
[by the Rambam]
I would search for better company ….July 9, 2023 10:38 am at 10:38 am #2206642
>>>Only G-d’s name may not be uttered in the bathhouse.
And any words of Torah. You can’t mention a simple halacha in mikva even without mentioning Hashem’s name due to the holiness of Torah.
Likewise, some people may feel uncomfortable mentioning “rebbe” (title for a holy man) in the mikva. Most Lubavitchers do mention him there, some don’t. This has nothing to do with deifying ch”v.
It’s crazy to see the lengths that people will go to imply the completely fabricated deification ch”v.
I once heard a “shiur” from David Bar-Hayim on the “issues” with Chabad. When he quotes a sicha, he points out that the date is printed as אחש”פ השי”ת – which he claims is implying that chassidim are calling the Rebbe השי”ת.
This ignorance would be amusing if it wouldn’t be accusing a group of Yidden of Avodah Zorah ch”v. In all letters and seforim of the Rebbe and his father in law, the year 5710 is referred to as השי”ת (swapping around the letters ה’תש”י). Just as the Rebbe refers to 5744 as תשד”מ and 5751 as תנש”א etc.July 9, 2023 10:38 am at 10:38 am #2206643
Correction: not all letter and sichos (sometimes it is ה’תש”י) but it is quite commonJuly 9, 2023 10:39 am at 10:39 am #2206646
>>>It’s not normal for yeshiva bochrim to use slurs about other types of yidden. That’s not “kid’s being kid’s.” That’s a serious problem that your community needs to address. Also, if no adults ever use it, then where do the kids learn it? They re-invent the word every generation?
I agree with most of what you wrote (that even bochurim should be talking respectfully etc.) but not with this: “That’s a serious problem that your community needs to address.”
This is not a problem specific to our community. I refer you to the parentheses in my earlier post, which I’d rather not go into.
אין להאריך בדבר המבהיל והמצערJuly 9, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2206671yankel berelParticipant
people who can blithely change what to them was one of the ikarei emunah to suit themselves, never had an ounce of emunah. Not beforehand and not afterwards.
WELL SAID !July 9, 2023 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2206699
“I expected better from someone who claims to be of superior Torah learning”
When did I ever claim this? I’m openly an am haaretz.
“This is again, the illogical argument of guilt of similarity.”
You were the one who made the comparison, not us. In fact, I didn’t even word my response in a degrading way. My point was that you misspoke so atrociously that you did your side more harm than good, and by digging your heels in you’re making it worse. I think your best bet is to just admit that you shouldn’t have brought up Shabbatei Tzvi/false moshiachs. It didn’t help your case by anyone’s standards, presumably even those of other Lubavitchers.
RSo: Many in Chabad seem to think he’s still alive in some capacity (eg. writing “shlita” after his name). I guess that’s another way of getting around the issue. I’m not sure which is worse. From my experience, internally in Chabad “mishichist” refers to the “still alive” camp, and “non mishichist” refers to the resurrection camp. The assertion that there are Lubavitchers who believe the moshiach will be someone other than the Rebbe is purely mythological from my observations.July 9, 2023 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2206700
Menachem, while i agree that that alone is not an issue of deification and i don’t think it’s even a hint to it, you need to understand the difference between the other years you mentioned. Klal yisroel has a minhag to change page letters and years which have bad things, like shmad, etc…so as not to mention them. I’ve never heard of a minhag to change a year to fit a positive thing, however. So i believe that’s unique, but the other changes are almost universalJuly 9, 2023 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #2206597
Nowhere did I make the argument that he would say the rebbe is Moshiach. But ur attempt to make this out to be entirely unhelpful to my case is frankly ridiculous. Here is a tzadik and Talmid chachom who claims his father will come back from the dead and be moshiach. An idea which is being said to be impossible according to Judaism. If a Lubavitcher wants to argue likewise he has precedent for 1. Someone coming from the dead 2. It being his own rebbe over other people.July 9, 2023 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #2206782
I responded at length at this but for some reason the editors didn’t allow it to go through so I’ll respond bkitzur
Your responses have been deleted because of language you used that is unacceptable from any yids mouth. I waver between deleting all future ones or just temporarily.
1. I never claimed everyone connected to Ruzhiner chassidus beleived it, but if they don’t know what he said then they don’t know. The fact is he said it and it’s recorded. I’m really not interested in playing these games of questioning my sources when I have said a few times now that I will literally email it to u and if not where u can go looking for it. U have not taken me up on my offer and thats ur problem
2. What did I attempt to prove with shabtai? Rather simple. Someone claimed nobody even in false messianic cults have argued for Moshiach from the dead until 1994. This is a horrid lie(apparently those are allowed on here, just not my long rebuttals) and I cited false messianic movements which did. The question is why did he make this claim? As far as I am concerned it was in order to insult lubavitch further by saying we are saying something so novel that no other movement has ever made it. It’s in my interest then to say that this isn’t the case. Kmuvan vgam pashut. I’m allowed to correct an inaccurate statement for the sole point of correcting inaccuracy in any event. Simple enough critique to follow
3. Nowhere did I say zev Leff was a gadol. My whole point is in criticizing your continued shifting of goal posts. First it wasn’t Jewish, then it was only a das yachid then it was just pirushim then it was just am haratzim that beleived in it, and now it’s well u can quote tzaddikim and talmidei chachamim who believed in this like shefanishter rebbe or people who allow it or say it isn’t heresy and apologize for the fake news(like zev Leff) BUT THEY ARENT GADOLIM. And who is a gadol? Whoever u want to pick and say is a gadol. It’s not logical ur continuously creating new hoops to jump through. I’ve brought and quoted sources on every front and u only move the goal posts further and further without acknowledging I sourced the other 5 goalposts u asked of me. It has sources, it’s defended by many talmidei chachamim, as far as I’m concerned that’s good enough to be respected part of Jewish conversion. But no if I can’t quote a “gadol” then the rest disappears. PleaseJuly 9, 2023 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #2206783JudeParticipant
Menachem: Of course words of Tora may not be spoken in the bathhouse; and that includes the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Sichos and Ma’amorim. But what makes the word “Rebbe” holier than “Acharon”, “Rishon”, Gaon”, “Amoro”, “Tanno”, or even “Novi”?
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