Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

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  • #2206822
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Jude,

    I thought this was originally clear, but I will oversimplify:

    When I mentioned Torah, my point was NOT to say that using the term “rebbe” has the halachic ramifications of discussing Torah. My point was that it’s not only Hashem’s name which is prohibited from mentioning in mikvah, but other holy things as well.

    Therefore, when a chossid doesn’t use the term “rebbe” in mikvah (although many do), it isn’t chas v’shalom because he deifies the Rebbe. It is because he feels a special sanctity when mentioning the title of the tzaddik that he’s personally connected to, so he feels uncomfortable mentioning it in unholy places.

    This isn’t some sort of new shtik in Lubavitch. See for example the notes of Frierdiker Rebbe describing the chassidim of the Tzemach Tzedek, through the eyes of one of the maskilim of the time (Mordechai Aharon Ginzberg) who tried to infiltrate Chabad (רשימות אדמו”ר הריי”צ – אדמו”ר הצ”צ ותנועת ההשכלה):

    לא אירע אשר אחת הנשים – המספרות – הזכירה את שם הרבי טרם נטלה ידי’ וקנחה אותם בסינורה או באלונטית!
    הדרת הכבוד והמורא מהרבי מושרש אצלם בעומק נפשם ועל כל צעד וצעד יזכירו את הרבי וכל הגה הנאמר בשמו של הרבי, בלי
    הבדל אם נוגע בנפש או בממון, קדוש הוא להם ומקיימים במסירת נפש.

    Loose translation:
    “The women never mention the name of the Rebbe before washing and scrubbing their hands.
    The fear of the Rebbe is rooted deeply in the chassidim, and they mention the Rebbe regarding every step they take. Anything said in the Rebbe’s name, whether regarding their spiritual life or monetary matters, is holy to them and they fulfill it with mesirus nefesh.”

    If you want to accuse Chabad of AZ (ח”ו וח”ו) for giving too much respect to his name – you’ll have to go all the way up to the Tzemach Tzedek.

    #2206868
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @menachem
    Heard from Gur Hasidim that the many Sipurim from Rayats are sourced from what he heard when very young from the women who tended to him in those years , and hence are unreliable.
    Anyways ,satmar rav used to mock those who based their belief on maasiyot.

    #2206991
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Yankel,

    It seems like you’re trying a little too hard.

    My only hope is that you at least respect your own rabbeim more than you respect others.

    #2206983
    RSo
    Participant

    Regarding the stories related by the Rayatz, all those who are not Lubavichers know that they are unreliable and were invented to keep the chassidim inline and fired up.

    Some years ago I cited the story of the sundial, which was related by the Rayatz, and which makes no sense at all. Perhaps someone can find that thread.

    #2207147
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    RSo,

    I’m hereby מוחה for the honor of tzaddikim.

    This מחאה applies to your post and any future ones.

    #2207238
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Rso…the rayatz was an accepted gadol batorah. Not only are you being extremely disrespectful, you’re also playing into the hands of chabadniks who say that the only people opposed to the last Lubavitcher rebbe are just against chasidus or chabad in general.

    It is not our place to say that stories related by gedolim “don’t make sense”

    #2207246
    Jude
    Participant

    Menachem.
    “The women never mention the name of the Rebbe before washing and scrubbing their hands.
    The fear of the Rebbe is rooted deeply in the chassidim, and they mention the Rebbe regarding every step they take. Anything said in the Rebbe’s name, whether regarding their spiritual life or monetary matters, is holy to them and they fulfill it with mesirus nefesh.”
    This is what we all have to do, except that we have to substitute “G-d” for “Rebbe”.

    #2207261
    sechel83
    Participant

    im still waiting to see a sefer that says moshiach cant come from the dead? someone?
    i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdim

    #2207264
    RSo
    Participant

    Avira, sorry but I am not saying what I heard from anyone else other than Lubavicher chassidim. Those who aren’t totally blind know that the Rayatz invented a lot of what he wrote to fire up the chassidim in the dark times of Communist Russia. It helped keep them loyal (and frum!).

    The story of the sundial is not a moifes story, nor something that is meant to be supernatural. It is a story that was intended to show the great SCIENTIFIC wisdom of the Baal Hatanya. The trouble is that SCIENTIFICALLY it makes no sense whatsoever. I’ll try to source it for you so you can see for yourself.

    And to set things straight, although in relation to Lubavich I could certainly be considered a snag because of my opposition to them on a number of fronts (not just the Mashiach issue), in relation to chassidus I am not a snag at all. In fact I am a “card-carrying member” of a known chassidus, and clearly look the part.

    #2207266
    RSo
    Participant

    I have found the story of the sundial as published in Lubavich sources. If someone will let me know how to direct you to the site in a way which the mods approve of, you will all be able to see how the story simply cannot be true scientifically, despite it being told to illustrate the Baal Hatanya’s scientific genius.

    #2207310
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I looked it up and I’ll be honest, I’m not so clear on how it’s unscientific; the claim is that the baal hatanya said that there were trees obstructing the suns rays at a certain time of day. Why is that impossible?

    #2207311
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I also don’t think it showed exceptional scientific knowledge, just an eye for detail that the professor didn’t have

    #2207294
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @sechel83 And we are all waiting for anyone to find a non-Chabad Rav who says that the Meshichist way of belief has legitimacy. someone?

    #2207327
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdim“

    Sechel,

    Use your sechel

    Misnaged comes from the word נגד against, in other words either your a חסיד or against חסידים litvishers don’t consider themselves against חסידים anymore

    What a way to show אחדות by calling people that don’t follow your way “the people that are against us”

    #2207324
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>This is what we all have to do, except that we have to substitute “G-d” for “Rebbe”.

    מורא רבך כמורא שמים

    You can ask the historians among the CR to provide many more historical facts about Yidden who had similarly great levels of reverence and bittul to their rabbis. To the best of my knowledge, this was not exclusive to Lubavitch.

    #2207323
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>I am not saying what I heard from anyone else other than Lubavicher chassidim.

    Complete lies. Anyone who said what you said and calls himself a Chabad chossid is like an Israeli knesset member who calls himself satmar.

    My מחאה remains

    >>>I am a “card-carrying member” of a known chassidus, and clearly look the part.

    Something tells me that although you dress chassidish, you don’t have a rebbe, but that’s just a theory.

    #2207347

    ““i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdim“

    We know what it’s short for, and they’re both slurs. Thank you for offering proof that Chabad uses those terms so often that many in Chabad don’t even realize they’re meant to be offensive anymore. This directly refutes Menachem Shmei’s claims about how they’re never used, and how we’re just making stuff up.

    Calling people misnagdim is basically calling them “the enemies.” So, the people who kept following the traditional Ashkenazi mesora somehow became “the opposition” overnight because they opted NOT to join a sectarian movement and change their minhagei avos. The entire concept is extremely one-sided and derogatory.

    #2207344
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @Sechel
    I am still waiting for a Habad chassid to be honest and acknowledge that Mashiach from Chaim only , was ‘official Habad Policy’ ,supported and endorsed by ALL HABAD RABBANIM AND MASHPIIM pre that fateful 3 tamuz day .
    .
    It seems that ‘phaiphing on the world’ includes phaiphing on ‘habad pre 1996’ too ?
    Habad pre 96 also qualifies as Habad – or not ?
    .
    If that was good for Habad pre 96, than it is also good for the rest of Klal Yisrael ….
    .

    #2207345
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel
    Correction – not pre 96 .
    It should read pre 94 instead.

    #2207353
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @menachem
    Not trying at all –
    merely relaying information EXACTLY as I heard it .
    not more and not less .
    read all the maasiyot he writes – it is definitely possible , maybe even probable.

    #2207369
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Neville, i disagree; the term misnaged became something similar to yekkie; it’s no longer a pejorative for one who wears short jackets. Some use the term for litvishe in general, but it’s rare.

    #2207387
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>This directly refutes Menachem Shmei’s claims about how they’re never used, and how we’re just making stuff up.

    I didn’t say that they’re never used, you’re twisting my words.
    I was very specific in what I wrote.

    Neville, this is some of what I’ve written to you in the past:

    “What a lie. I have never heard the term “snag” from anyone’s mouth other than immature bochurim and online posters (היינו הך?)…
    The average Chabad adult who doesn’t hang out online or with bochurim doesn’t even know what a snag is!!”

    The fact that an online poster (who may also be an immature bochur) tried explaining this term refutes nothing of what I said.

    RE the term misnaged:
    This is indeed a quite common term. This is usually used to refer to those who attack chabad, but is also used sometimes to refer to regular litvishers.
    In any case, as Avira wrote, it’s not meant to be used as a slur, rather as the traditional way that many non-chassidim have been referred to for generations.

    #2207389
    RSo
    Participant

    Menachem: “Complete lies. Anyone who said what you said and calls himself a Chabad chossid is like an Israeli knesset member who calls himself satmar.”

    I can understand your surprise, but it’s the truth. The Rayatz wasn’t the first one who wrote “fiction” in order to save Yidden from leaving Torah and Mitzvos. There was R Meir/Marcus Lehman, who btw was an outstanding talmid chochom. There was R Yudel Rosenberg, who was a rov and a talmid chochom, and who is responsible for all the stories about the Maharal’s golem.

    “Something tells me that although you dress chassidish, you don’t have a rebbe, but that’s just a theory.”

    And it’s BH a completely incorrect theory.

    Now it’s my turn to guess. Something tells me that you have never known what it is to have a live Rebbe who talks to you personally one on one. That is, I’m guessing that you came on the scene after the first stroke and therefore never faced a rebbe to his face.

    #2207390
    RSo
    Participant

    sechel83: “i love all misnagdim”

    Oh, come on! That is such a trite and impossible statement. What do you mean by love them? How do you love them?

    Just to clarify, it’s not the claim that you love misnagdim that I can’t accept. It’s that you love ALL misnagdim. And my objection would apply even had you said that you love all Yidden.

    In general, a person who makes a meaningless statement like that is just trying to say how great they are.

    #2207392
    RSo
    Participant

    Avira, I’m surprised that you didn’t see what is inherently unscientific in the sundial story, but before I explain allow me to summarize the pertinent parts of the story very briefly for those who are unfamiliar with it.

    A poritz had a sundial that did not work correctly from 2 pm to 5 pm. The greatest professors could not explain why, but the Baal Hatanya could.
    (That may sound as if c”v I’m denigrating the Baal Hatanya, but I am not at all. In fact, I seriously have no problem believing that a gaon who was so kadosh vetahor could have a greater understanding of science than even the greatest professors nowadays. It’s just that the explanation given in the story is nonsensical.)
    He suggested that there were tall trees growing on a tall hill 12 to 15 miles to the south, and they were blocking the sun from 2 pm to 5 pm. The trees were cut down and the Baal Hatanya was proven right. (The story is longer and contains accounts of anti-Semitism and trickery, but in a nutshell that’s what happened.)

    What’s wrong with the story?
    1. The horizon on flat land is approximately 3 miles away. Due to the curvature of the earth no hill or trees 12 to 15 miles away could interfere with the sun’s rays hitting a sundial.
    2. If when standing next to a sundial on a clear day (sundials require sun to function properly) you can’t see any obstruction such as trees on a hill, the sundial can’t see it either, and it would not affect the time shown. If something would affect the sun’s rays reaching the sundial at any particular time, you would be able to notice it with the naked eye without having to resort to experts or professors.

    #2207438
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>I can understand your surprise, but it’s the truth.

    You write as if I’m “surprised” by this new piece of “info” that your telling me. I am not surprised because I don’t accept your claim.
    There is a fundamental difference between the writings of Marcus Leiman and your claims about the Rebbe Rayatz. Marcus Leiman was officially writing fiction (maybe based on historical facts).
    However, the Rebbe Rayatz wrote his stories as accurate historical facts passed down to him from sources he relied on.

    Obviously, as a Chabad chossid, there is no way I would accept that stories written by one of my holy rebbes are just made up, ח”ו.

    Neither would any other Lubavitcher say that. It would be ridiculous for someone to claim that the Rebbe Rayatz made up stories about his holy predecessors (ח”ו) and still call himself a chossid chabad.

    I find it hard to trust you that you heard this from Lubavitchers, especially since you contradict yourself:

    “all those who are not Lubavichers know that they are unreliable”
    “sorry but I am not saying what I heard from anyone else other than Lubavicher chassidim.”

    I assumed you didn’t have a rebbe because you seem oblivious to the basic level of respect that any chossid would have for a rebbe of his.
    Now that I know the truth, my hope is that you respect your rebbe more than you expect others to respect their’s.

    #2207453
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Rso, are you sure about the 15 miles part? I didn’t notice that in the version i read – maybe the trees were closer and visible, and it was the baal hatanya ‘s attention to detail which made him notice something everyone else overlooked.

    #2207447
    RSo
    Participant

    menachem: “ou contradict yourself:
    “all those who are not Lubavichers know that they are unreliable”
    “sorry but I am not saying what I heard from anyone else other than Lubavicher chassidim.””

    Not a contradiction. All non-Lubavichers to whom I have spoken about the Rayatz’s stories say they don’t believe they are true. A number of Lubavichers – obviously not all Lubavichers – have told me that it was written as historical fiction.

    Btw I understand that you don’t accept that it is fiction, but a thinking person reading them will find many reasons to decide that it is indeed so. I’ll try to find some more anomalies, but I don’t want to quote what I have heard without first ensuring that I can find a source.
    I also note that you have not been able to explain the “science” involved in the sundial story.

    “my hope is that you respect your rebbe more than you expect others to respect their’s”

    As to other chassidim’s respect for their rebbes, it depends on the rebbe in question. When I was much younger I respected the Lubavicher rebbe greatly and understood why his chassidim respected him. It was only when I saw what he was encouraging his followers to do and to believe that I lost a lot of respect, and hoped that his followers would too.

    #2207496

    Avira:

    Nobody self-identifies as “misnagdish,” and I mean nobody. Maybe a few baal teshuvos here and there who learned the term from Chabad then graduated from Chabad without learning proper yeshivish terminology. Even if someone genuinely opposed Chassidus, why would they make their entire identity defined around their stance on a movement they don’t hold of?

    If you want to say other Chassidim use the term also, fine, but they’re also being derogatory. It’s not comparable to Yekke which is a clearly defined term and is used proudly as an identity. Misnaged has no clear definition and basically just refers to anyone Chassidim don’t like, much like when socialists use the word “bourgeois.” Are non-Chassidish sphardim misnagdim? Are yekkes misnagdim? Was the Chasam Sofer misnagdish even though one of his rebbeim was the Baal HaFlaah?

    #2207513
    RSo
    Participant

    Avirah, here are quotes from the story as it appears online:

    “He estimated that there had to be a tall hill about twelve to fifteen miles to the south, with tall trees growing on the hilltop.”

    “The governor was highly impressed, and ordered a special agent to be sent to inspect all areas between twelve and fifteen miles south of his estate”

    And Avirah, you wrote “maybe the trees were closer and visible, and it was the baal hatanya ‘s attention to detail which made him notice something everyone else overlooked”.

    Surely if the sundial didn’t function correctly between 2 and 5 pm because of something blocking the sun, any idiot would have noticed that the day was darker during that period.

    Also, I just realized that there’s another problem with the story. For two years the sundial did not show the correct time between 2 and 5. Summer and winter? Even in Russia/Poland the sun is much higher in the summer than it is during that winter. They must have been VERY high trees.

    And the number of trees required to block the sun for three straight hours must have been large. But in a few days the trees were all cut down, and all before chainsaws were invented!

    #2207530
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    @Neville
    I guess I am a nobody by your logic…..
    A multigenerational Litvish Jewish American, I was brought up to proudly use the term Misnagid when describing myself. In fact you will see me use it in some comments I have posted in the CR over the years.
    My familial and personal opposition to Chasidus is not to its individual adherents but the practice of establishing a ‘court’ ruled by a dynasty. Just being the son or son-in-law of a leader does not make one a Talmud Chochem or a leader or anyway qualified to take over control of Millions of dollars of assets and direct the votes of followers.
    I particularly object to a Chasidus where a Rebbe dies and multiple sons take the title of the XXXXer Rebbe followed by a geographic location such as Boro Park, Monsey, Yerushalayim, etc. In affect setting up Cadet branches of these non-Royal Dynasties.

    AND>>>>>>I may oppose (be Neged) the Chasidus for the above reasons, but still support their Yeshivos, Hospitals, Kollelim, Bikur Cholim, Food Distributions for the poor because They are Jews and I support all Jews to the best of my financial ability. I also have cordial social interactions with members of Chabad, Satmar, Ger, Sanz and Bobov.
    Here, OOT, when I was growing up the Day School choice in New Haven was Chabad. Otherwise it was public school or be shipped OOT. Never was any of the Melech HaMoshiach sentiment expressed, but The Rebbe was alive for many years after I was out of school.

    #2207537
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Backing up CT here
    Many in my family wear the label “misnagid” with pride
    After all, the litvish derech is the only real derech and chassidus is simply a corruption of real yiddishkeit (at least in the eyes of a real misnagid)
    And if we can be elitist, why cant they?

    #2207538

    “I guess I am a nobody by your logic….”

    I mean, sort of, yeah. Not in a mean-spirited sense, just in the sense that you seem to be the only person in existence who defines their affiliation on the basis of a machlokes that happened centuries ago. You’re definitely the exception, not the rule.

    #2207563
    RSo
    Participant

    CTLAWYER: “I was brought up to proudly use the term Misnagid when describing myself”

    Hey! We’ve found a real live Snag! Can we send him to the Smithsonian to preserve him for posterity?

    #2207583
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @NevilleChaimBerlin Hey hey lay off of us Yekkes! The older crowd absolutely detests the term, probably because they recall it as an insult, “A kleineh yakkeh Yid”, and prefers a confusing mouthful like “Frankfurter am Main Juden” or some such.

    #2207590

    “After all, the litvish derech is the only real derech”

    Then call yourself a Litvisher or a Litvak. Using a term that’s based around Chassidim feels like a major inferiority complex.

    #2207596
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    @Yeserbius
    My paternal side is Litvak, my mother’s Yekke, arriving in the USA back in 1868.
    Oma never accepted my mother marrying a peasant from the east(with a college degree and a family that arrived in 1872).
    There were strict negotiations before the wedding 80 years ago. OPA insisted that the male offspring would wear taleisim from Bar Mitzvah and the ‘gutter’ language Yiddish not be uttered in his presence

    #2207597
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    @Rso
    I must live a really sheltered OOT life. Until this thread I never came across the term: SNAG
    OOT all Jews must live in harmony

    #2207598
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    @Neville
    I would never take anything you contribute as mean spirited.
    As for people who describe themselves according to a makloches that occurred centuries ago, instead of Jews look at the Anglican (Church of England) Christians.
    Henry wanted another Divorce, the Pope said no. Presto a new denomination with the head of the church, the head of the ruling dynasty. I have already stated my opposition to dynasties

    #2207599
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Neville
    You are being deliberately obtuse
    Litvish is what I am, it describes my religious leanings and perhaps my family origins
    Misnagdish is the rest of the family who emphatically oppose chassidik philosophy. (I am more ambivalent to chassidik thought). see the difference?
    If you would like to create a new term that describes ones opposition to chassidik philosophy, yet does so without implying a litvish inferiority complex, feel free to coin the term.

    #2207605
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Since we’re discussing the definition of the term “misnaged,” I can’t hold myself back from bringing the following letter of the Rebbe Rayatz (dated 15 Teves 5705 – אגרות קודש אדמו”ר מהוריי”צ ח”ח),
    where he quotes a sicha that he heard from his father – the Rebbe Rashab – in the summer of 5660.

    The Rebbe Rashab discusses the term misnaged as it was described by the Baal Hatanya on the first Yud Tes Kislev:

    ווען מען האט דעם רבין’ן באפרייט פון פעטראפאוולאווסקער פעסטונג-תפיסה – י”ט כסלו תקנ”ט – פארנאכט . . האט מען אים בטעות אריין געפירט אין דער דירה פון [דעם צורר החסידים ראש המתנגדים] ר’ נטע נאטקין.
    איינע פון די תביעות וואס דער ראש המתנגדים נאטקין האט געמאנט ביים רבין איז געווען פאר וואס חסידים האבין זיך גענומען אזא הויכן נאמען: חסידים.
    האט איהם דער רבי גיענטפערט, אז ניט חסידים האבן אליין גענומען דעם נאמען חסידים, חסידים בכלל נעמען ניט אליין קיין זאך, ווייל חסידים גלויבן בהשגחה פרטית כשיטת הבעש”ט נ”ע. דעם נאמען חסידים האט די השגחה עליונה געגעבן חסידים דורך זייערע מנגדים. די מנגדים האבן דאך גידארפט א נאמען געבן חסידים מתנגדים, אבער די השגחה עליונה האט מזכה גיווען די מנגדים מיט א אור אמת אז זיי אליין האבן געגעבן חסידים זייער כשר פארדינטן נאמען חסידים, און זיך אליין האבן זיי גיגעבן דעם נאמען מתנגדים.
    Loose translation (by SIE):
    When the Alter Rebbe was freed from the Peter Paul Fortress before evening on Yud-Tes Kislev, 5559 (1798), he was asked where he wanted to be taken, and he named the address of a chassid called R. Mordechai of Liepli. He was duly taken to that building, but by mistake he was taken to a different apartment nearby, which was the residence of the most outspoken of the misnagdim, R. Nota Notkin.

    One of his complaints to the Alter Rebbe was this: Why did chassidim assume such a pretentious name – “chassidim” [which means “pietists”]?

    The Alter Rebbe answered that chassidim did not assume this name themselves. On principle, he explained, chassidim do not take anything themselves, because they believe in the teaching of the Baal Shem Tov on specific Divine Providence. The name “chassidim” was given to them by Divine Providence, via their opponents, the misnagdim. Actually, the Alter Rebbe went on to say, the misnagdim should have called chassidim “misnagdim” [which means “opponents”]. However, Divine Providence bestowed upon the misnagdim a ray of truthful light, so that it was they who gave chassidim the honestly-earned title of “chassidim,” while calling themselves “misnagdim.”

    #2207606
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Interestingly
    I have never heard the term “snag” bf today. Yet here and I just read Rav Yitzchak new article “were we wrong about chabad” and it has the following quote
    I write all of this with firm bona fides as a “snag,” (as Chabad calls misnagdim), in no danger of going over to the Chabad side ideologically.”
    apparently he doesn’t see it as an insult either

    #2207633
    ujm
    Participant

    Which Rav Yitzchok? Rav Amnon?

    #2207634

    Menachem, I recall from this episode that Alter Rebbe considered that he had to listen to misnaged accusations a punishment or something like that. Is this in the same letter?

    #2207635

    Ivri means – avar to the other side, so it is OK to define oneself as negative to something.

    #2207688

    “Litvish is what I am, it describes my religious leanings and perhaps my family origins
    Misnagdish is the rest of the family who emphatically oppose chassidik philosophy. (I am more ambivalent to chassidik thought). see the difference?”

    Yes, but Chabad makes no such distinction. As you can see here, they treat it as a general term for all non-Chassidish Ashkenazim. To be honest, I thought that was how you were using it as well.

    “apparently he doesn’t see it as an insult either”

    That quote proves nothing. He’s clearly using it in an ironic manor like I was when I called RSo an “evil misnaged” earlier on this thread (or perhaps one of the other ones; I can’t keep track).

    “so it is OK to define oneself as negative to something.”

    Sure, it’s “OK,” but it’s silly and kind of sad. We COULD have started identifying as “Anti-Christians” two thousand years ago instead of continuing to identify as Jews, but we didn’t change our self identity on the basis of sectarianism for hopefully obvious reasons.

    #2207769
    SACT5
    Participant

    Ran across this on the wikipedia page for Lithuanian Jews yesterday when trying to figure out if my ancestors called themselves Litvaks 100 years ago as a geographic or a religious affiliation.

    “Lithuania became the heartland of the traditionalist opposition to Hasidism. THEY NAMED THEMSELVES “misnagdim” (opposers) of the Hasidi. The Lithuanian traditionalists believed Hassidim represented a threat to Halachic observance due to certain Kabbalistic beliefs held by the Hassidim, that, if misinterpreted, could lead one to heresy as per the Frankists.”

    If the term misnagdim was a title they created for themselves then originally it was not pejorative to them. However since it emphasizes the dangers they saw in chassidism it was perhaps originally pejorative towards them. So maybe it’s been twisted since but the discontinuance of that term seems more about Litvish accepting Chassidim today then finding it offensive.

    #2207764
    Jude
    Participant

    “מורא רבך כמורא שמים”
    That means that you are required to have vast fear of G-d, and fear of your Rebbe should approach it.
    Unfortunately, for many simple, and some not so simple Chasidim fear of G-d is hardly mentioned: just fear of their Rebbe.
    Many Lubavitch Chasidim have a picture of the Rebbe in their siddur.
    An acquaintance of mine converted to Lubavitch. He related that he had told the Rebbe that when davening he cannot help himself thinking that he is davening to the Rebbe. The Rebbe replied that he must not think that. This story illustrates the problem.

    #2207818
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    >>>Unfortunately, for many simple, and some not so simple Chasidim fear of G-d is hardly mentioned: just fear of their Rebbe

    This is no longer an ideological discussion but a false accusation.

    It is ingrained in all Lubavitchers (children and adults, simple and wise) that the existence of a rebbe is to serve as a inspiration and example to help us increase in yiras shamayim and connecting with Hashem.

    On the contrary: We spend hours every day studying chassidus – exploring concepts of achdus Hashem, yiras shomayim, and avodas Hashem.

    I would actually argue that the problem that you mention specifically applies to Litvishe yeshivos that only learn Gemara without having a set time every day to learn and think about Hashem. They are the ones who hardly mention fear of G-d, instead focusing mainly on the teachings of chachamim in Gemara.

    (P.S. My point isn’t chas v’shalom to attack the Litvisher derch, nor to begin an explosive discussion on the differences between the Litvisher and Lubavitcher derech. That is way beyond the context here.
    I’m just pointing out how your argument can be flipped on its head.)

    #2207882

    SACT5:

    I’ve seen enough wikipedia talk pages not to trust anything written about Chabad or Litvishers. There are a lot of extremely active Chabad-biased editors, as well as anti-Chabad-biased editors.

    Also, are we really supposed to trust the terminology on a page which continues to be titled “Lithuanian Jews,” a term which is never actually used to describe the group about which it’s written?

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