Rabbi Moshe Hillel Hirsch and the IDF (Israeli Army)

Certified Bubbe Maaisa.

yankel berel, we went a long way from complaining about prosecutions in our history – murders, limiting employment, unfair taxation – to complaining about the government requiring the community to perform at least some of their civil duty – work and defend against the enemies.

I understand the ideal of wanting to have a community that is all about Torah learning, but you have to be realistic, and “realistic” means behaving according to halachik norms in the situation Hashem put us. Say, you were to live in China – would you demand Chinese government to provide you with a stipend and a police force? Then, why you are demanding the same from Jews, whom you do not respect and who are not always willing to support you?
This is just no ehrlich. How do you call a person who forcibly extract money from another? Furthermore, I do not even understand the motivation – Hashem gives us mitzvos, why would I want to risk my olam haboh by refusing to defend, to fulfil my ketubah and by creating this terrible strife in a Jewish country. Maybe try to meet your requirements at least part of the way and see how it feels.

I’m sure these were fine fine bucherim. and the rosh yeshiva heard their cries of “we’re so unfulfilled serving Hashem, maybe we can server other gods?”, and the venerable Rosh Hayeshiva said to them with loving eyes, “yes, you may join the forces of evil and cause more bloodshed. go forth and bring violence to the world!”

I recall hearing that at his Shalosh Seudos tish in the Yeshiva, Rabbi Hirsh called out “Come and hear the new path! the salve for anyone who feels moderate discomfort in the study halls: grab a gun and risk your life for political power. This is the Torah (sic) way! This is how we shall send our children to die al kiddush Hashem(sic)! And then, no one will ever dare suffer ‘spiritual unfulfillment’ or ”financial hardships’.”

Yes this was all supposedly by his Shalosh Seudos tish, as reported by very very charedi Rabbi Yonatan Even-Hapina, a prolific online commentator and avid artscroll reader. It’s a shame his brilliant reporting was not sourced as I would love to interview the bucherim.

Oh, never mind, they died in battle. No, not the battle with the yetzer hureh, they died because the zionist commander sent them on a suicide mission as the state needed some tragic headlines to put pressure on the USA for better bomb support. Unfortunately news of their deaths didn’t get picked up in the press, but the good news is there are many more soldiers waiting in line for their next orders, so we can expect the bomb agreement eventually.

/s

SQUARE_ROOT:
If somebody were to endlessly spew propaganda for Jews for J, any normal Jew would answer that propaganda to prevent others from falling prey to idolatry and lies. Same here. Your hate should be directed to the wicked Zionists who have destroyed generations of Jews. But your idolatry tells you otherwise. So drop the idol.

Somejewiknow, STOP being motzei seim ra on the Jews. And you are not drawing anybody to your side doing so either — just getting people angry.

@ AAQ

Couple of things

1) Full time Torah Learning is a Civic Contribution of the Highest Order.

2) There are sizeable kehilos in EY who do not take a penny from the Government. Many, from families who came well
before 1948. They never asked for anything from the State.

For the above two categories military service is a none-starter. There is a caveat regarding category 1. In America, most frum yidden don’t stay in learning full time past 3-5 years in Kollel. The matzav in EY in the Chareidi communities is different then in the US but it is changing.

One of the obstacles to this change is mandatory military service for men who are not learning full time. Because…

3) Putting our sons (and daughters) under the authority of people who are at best ambivalent and at worst outright hostile to the Torah is not acceptable. And, unlike Hatzala, we can’t just pick up and make a private army.

In spite of the above, for those who are not learning full time a path to be able to be contribute economically and militarily needs to be found.

Do you have a realistic solution?

NP > Full time Torah Learning is a Civic Contribution of the Highest Order.

We have various models for that in Judaism. One is Yissachar/Zevulun – that is a valid contract between two willing participants. There are, B’H people willing to support learning. Not when one of them forces the other to pay. Another is – live on bread and water. Another is – work and learn at night. Another – get a profession, work several hours a day and learn.

Maybe the sentiment that you present is based on (unsaid?) assumption that the Jewish state is valuable – and we expect more out of it. Then, the community should publicly acknowledge that they see other Israelis as brothers and conduct conversation accordingly.

One of the links to Jewish Action referred to a story that R Soloveichik encountered in 1935 a stalinist kibbutz with a kosher kitchen. Turns out that R kook had previously visited the kibbutz on a Shabbat, had some inspirational time with them, did not criticize any of their behaviors and before leaving said “I hope we can also eat together next time”. They kashered the kitchen next day.

> Do you have a realistic solution?

From what I heard, the current bill is that realistic solution – military service for those who are not f/t learning with strict verification of that fact. Same way as it was during early times of Israel where Mir Rosh Yeshiva was imploring his students – I am certifying that Torah is your occupation, please do not make me into a liar. If this works, hopefully both sides will see it and learn how to talk to each other.

thanks for the letter. There is a comment there that says that it is well known that HaRav supports nachal chareidi. There were also neturei karta in London protesting a memorial for the Rav because of that support.

1] sh’ a OC 329 mandates yotsin aleihen bikli zayin ,meaning

you go and fight them with weapons.

2] sh’a YD 156 clearly states that any other avera besides the three hamurot , meaning

all other averot [including supposed oaths] yaavor veal yehareig , because pikuach nefesh is doche all issurim , meaning

you go, fight and save lives

not like maharal often quoted by satmar

not like this HUGE HIDDUSH that all of the millions of innocent people in EY ,are required to die rather than defend themselves

3] supposed issur of oaths are never mentioned anywhere in sh’a , not in OC , not in YD , not in EH, and not in CM., meaning

there is no issur to fight in the first place

Three clear proofs that sh’a plus rama plus all nosei keilim rule not like maharal [which is anyway mentioned in a non halachik sefer]

in what other area in the torah do we rule like a non halachik sefer against the established pillars of halacha ?

why is this area any different to any other ?

this is not a hashkafic question – this is a clear halachik question in hilchot pikuach nefesh

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@ UJM

Thank you for the link to the letter

@AAQ

“Do you have a document from Hashem guaranteeing lack of challenges for your community specifically?”

No. The Dati Leumi community needs full time learners as well. Every Jewish community does. There are plenty of challenges that go along with that. No one is exempt from challenges in olam hazeh.

“Maybe you feel that you are doing so much for Hashem by learning and wearing dark clothes on a hot day”

I see lots of people wearing suits in the summer. Fedora hats go better with suits then baseball caps, no? People tend to dress similarly to other people in their communities. No big chidush there. Not sure what this has to do with the subject we are discussing

yankel berel:
You and the Zionists could start by responding to the calling out of all the sheker and heresy you’ve spewed on these boards.

Regarding your points:
It makes no practical difference if the Tur does or does not bring that Maharal. He doesn’t rule against the Maharal. And we still know very clearly, from poskim throughout the ages and from the terrible instances of destruction of Jews like harugei beithar, that the three oaths are G-d’s will and very much in effect.

No, Zionist idolatry is the result of a disconnection from G-d. The medrash states explicitly that harugei beithar was due to their having violated the oaths. Don’t be a kofer.

Nope. The clear reality of what the Middle East is now, if anything, provides more opportunity than in the past for the Zionist “State” to be handed over to Esav, or some other solution, that does not involve loss of anything other than that idol and its numerous problems and astronomical waste of money.

Nope. There is no “factual and clear evidence” of that sort. All the gedolim (as recently as like yesterday, as it happens) have confirmed that it is absolutely forbidden for Jews to join the Zionist shmad army. LBC”L, Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him that he guarantees him that if the boy joins that shmad army, no matter the framework, that he will come out of it “a total goy”! And you idolaters refuse to acknowledge the reality that the express purpose of that shmad army is to shmad Jews, to convert Jews and Judaism into Zionists and idolatrous godless Zionism. So even if it were true that some infinitesimally percentage seem to come out frum, against all odds, that doesn’t at all permit others to put themselves in that situation. It is forbidden to place one’s self in a place of nisayon. We pray each day to save ourselves from that. And on and on…

There is not such “clear evidence that the majority of haredei talmidei hahamim …” rejected the oaths as the source of any punishment. You would have to quote where they explicitly deny that the oaths were the cause, and you obviously cannot do that because that simply isn’t true. You’re simply assuming.

Again, nope. See Biayos haZman, for example. Rav Reuven there wrote that he doesn’t “come on to” the oaths because there are other halachic considerations that are even more obvious.

It is the idolatrous Zionists who think they understand the Torah better than all the gedolim who explicitly forbade Zionism including “Religious Zionism”.

But they have no answer, of course. Eileh elohecha tziyonim.

NP > 1) Recognition of the vital role full time learning plays in the preservation of the Jewish Nation and taxation by a Torah True government to fund it.
2) Under a democratic government, political advocacy for financial allocations by constituents who recognize the same.
News flash. In a democracy you are “forced to pay” for lots of things you don’t personally agree with

Good points:
1) We will all be happy with the “Torah true” government (TTG). Hope, we will recognize it when we see it! What if this TTG decides to spend more on Iron dome, while allowing engineers two hours of learning after work? Similar to gemora Megilla discussion between Yehoshua and malach who says he came because the army neglected learning at night.

2) I am ok with a democracy and using all kind of procedures from toppling the government to appealing to supreme court. A hard question then is – are we allowed to use all manners of speech that are allowed in a democracy in order to achieve the vote and maintain public support. It is often ugly. If, according to you, the goal is simply to achieve more support for your group – are you allowed to claim that your opponents are like Nazis, etc.
We do not have a lot of halachik experience with democracy in history. One would be Poland and Lita in 1920s-30s. I read some of the Chofetz Chaim letters from that period. He is definitely using some strong language, especially during an election in Vilno, where it seems like non/anti-religious groups were on the verge of taking power away. I can’t vouch for the whole picture though. The book was of yeshivish edition, so they might have selected what to publish. So, this would definitely be a source to resolve what is allowed in elections.

But longer play in democracy – you want to bring more people to support your side, not just fight for money. And that seems to be missing. Shas seems to understand that. They support the rest of charedi parties when they have to, but clearly keep connection with wider public.

Happy,
sorry, you are not repeating the same thing enough time to qualify

@hakatan

katan to yb :
No, Zionist idolatry is the result of a disconnection from G-d. The medrash states explicitly that harugei beithar was due to their having violated the oaths. Don’t be a kofer.
—

lol.

AVNEI NEZER clearly explains that medrash that harugei betar was due to disconnection to the rbsh’o , symptomatic by rebelling against the oaths.
That’s like saying chv’sh to moraini AVNEI NEZER – dont be a kofer ….

—

Bottom line – you

argue against clear sh’a ,

subsequently are mafkir damam shel yisrael and on top of that

accuse gdolei yisrael of kfira …

.
Come down from the “universe judging pedestal” you climbed on

and think again about what you wrote.
.

Attacking Zionism in any of its forms is literally the epitome of sinat hinam. Charedim and the IDF need to do a better job at creating an environment within the IDF where haredim can protect am Yisrael without jeopardizing their Yirat Shamayim. Because in its current form it’s entirely understandable why a haredi should not join the IDF. But to speak about fellow Jews with such hatred is without a doubt a large obstacle in the way of the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash. Hopefully with time this hashkafa will die out when children will see the faults of their stubborn parents and choose love over hatred.

user176:
Promoting Zionism in any way is the epitome of sinas Yisrael (as in hate of Jews).
But, by your logic, attacking Palestinian Nationalism in any of its forms is literally baseless hate.

yankel berel:
You can make up whatever stories you want. The Zionist army is shmad, in addition to the issues of the three oaths. The Zionist army is all three of the inviolable prohibitions: idolatry, immorality and spilling blood – and shmad

And your nonsense about the oaths is just that. Many poskim throughout the ages have ruled that the oaths are in force, even though it is not a clear mitzva in the Torah like honoring your parents or the like. And none of the authorities you quoted ruled against that. The oaths are clearly in force, which is why the “Religious Zionist” idolaters try to hard to nullify them with various nonsensical claims.

yankel> I personally know people who were advised by r shlome zalman auerbach to enlist .

and what happened with them? Note that some rabbonim consider someone becoming a “non charedi” an aveirah.

Similarly, a Rav on today’s front page mentions discussing this topic with some who is “frum” but not “ben Torah”. This Rav also talks about those whose _only_ occupation is Torah. So, he obviously allows others to serve like R Sholmo Zalman.

@AAQ

what happened to them ?

they are clear haredi and are wellknown leaders of haredi hesed organisations

.

katan reminds me of a robot pre programmed by some satmar guy …
.

.somejew to yb:
.I’ve been debating if it’s permitted for me to respond to your earlier question, because I can’t figure out if your just a well meaning am hauretz who can’t read or a insincere masis iadiach ready to deface the Torah to defend your zionist god.
—

surprise here, mr somejew :
its neither , not a mesit chvsh , nor an amhaurets who cannot read

just

a sincere jew , ready to defend the torah from being grotesquely distorted by people like you , in order to defend innocent lives , threatened by misinformation and deceit.
.
.

To Katan:
You can make up whatever stories you want, you can even make poskim like shulhan aruch and avnei nezer totally disappear .
The IDF is shmad for the people actually smadded and the people liable to be shmadded. For the other people it is not shmad.
So for the other people it is mutar.

In addition , the issues of the three oaths are not applicable to the IDF as it is clear as day to anyone to whom reality matters one bit, that IDF laying down its weapons , is chvsh a death sentence for untold number of our own brothers.

Therefore we can summarize that the so called Zionist army is , besides osek in the hatzala of klal yisrael , is also osek in three of the inviolable prohibitions: idolatry, immorality and spilling blood – and shmad

And your nonsense about the oaths is just that. The major Poskim throughout the ages, like tur shulhan aruch and nosei keilim, have ruled that the oaths are not in force, because they learnt the relevant gemara like avnei nezer.

The oaths are clearly not in force halachically , which is why the overwhelming majority of haredi talmidei hahamim clearly act that way .

.

To summarize

according to katan, ujm, somejew and the literal reading of vayoel moshe –
even if the whole medina would be fully haredi and the hafets hayim himself would be PM , it would be yehareig ve’al yaavor to join the fully haredi IDF because it still would classify as an army of shmad
and therefore, when faced with a binary choice of
either chv’sh the wholesale slaughter of all inhabitants of EY versus enlistment ,
they would choose the former

according to the majority of talmidei hahamim –
joining ,in that case, would constitute a mitsva of hatsalat nefashot

.