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I do not understand this whole hullabaloo
did the mo’etsete of aguda in 1937 agree to the Peel proposal of establishment of 2 states in palestine ?
or not ?
are the members of this mo’etset lay leaders or torah leaders ?
did those sages have in their gemarot the section about the oaths or did they never hear of the oaths ?
/
common sense rabotai
instead of idiotic automatic and robotic repeated recital of the same distortions again and again ….
,
,I asked chat GPT your question:
did the mo’etsete of aguda in 1937 agree to the Peel proposal of establishment of 2 states in palestine ?
and the answer it gave:
No, the **Mo’etzet Gedolei HaTorah of Agudat Yisrael** (Council of Torah Sages of Aguda) **did not agree** to the **Peel Commission proposal** in 1937.The **Peel Commission**, appointed by the British government, recommended for the first time the **partition of Mandatory Palestine** into two states—one Jewish and one Arab. While the **Zionist leadership** debated the proposal (with some supporting it conditionally), **Agudat Yisrael**, which represented a non-Zionist Orthodox Jewish position, **rejected the proposal**.
The **Mo’etzet Gedolei HaTorah** did not support the idea of partitioning the land or establishing a secular Jewish state, which they saw as incompatible with Torah values. Their position was rooted in a religious worldview that rejected secular nationalism and emphasized waiting for **divine redemption** rather than political statehood.
So, to summarize:
**No**, the **Mo’etzet Gedolei HaTorah of Aguda** did **not agree** to the Peel Commission's proposal in 1937.
Now, I obviously don’t trust chatgpt without evidence, so let me ask you if you know of any sources that would support the claim that Agudah endorsed the “2-state” recommendation of the Peel Commission?
square,
It’s from their Summer, 2023 issue (mods, please allow link):
https://jewishaction.com/cover-story/the-birth-of-the-jewish-state-rabbinic-views-and-perspectives
Now Joey the Liar can accuse the O.U. of lying instead.
Now we know the source of the lie, thanks to hadopi. The lie comes from the Zionist Orthodox Union magazine, only quoting a Zionist Rabbi of Israel, according to what was published in the Zionist publication Techumin, published by the Zionist Yisrael Rosen, who was the head of the Zionist/MO Zomet Institute and was a politician in the party of Naftali Bennet (the guy who is married to a secular woman and who teamed up with Yair Lapid of the anti-Torah, anti-Orthodox, Yesh Atid) and teamed up with an Arab party, HaBayit HaYehudi.
And there is no other source for this false quote, exactly because it is… false.
In 1937 the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, meeting in Marienbad, firmly and publicly opposed the Peel Commission.
GadolHadofi, thanks for an interesting article. There is a link at the bottom of the article that also describes views of R Zevin and R Frank. Of course, all of these need to be balanced to the anti-state views that are alluded in the articles but not described in detail.
But I think sincere confusion comes from the fact that for some posters, those quotes are totally unfamiliar. Their sincere reaction is to deny that these quoutes exist because – unfortunately – the seforim they read did not contain them. I am not sure whether they’ll try to verify those or just deny.
Joseph,
So you don’t trust the “lying, Zionist Orthodox Union” and never consume their certified products, such those manufactured by Coca Cola or Pepsi, right?
@ ujm
Right only religious zionists lie , you don’t lie? How dare you call it a lie ? Why because you can’t admit others held it was an aschlata dgeula. You can’t lie about public statements. R isser zalman said this in public .Not that I need further proof but you think it’s coincidence that his son became head of hesder
You think it’s coinicidemce that he was close to R kook ?There is only one liar . And I won’t stand for your bullying just because you can’t bring yourself to admit the hard truth. No I say the truth . And the ou is more honest than you as was rabbi Herzog I will continue to say R isser zalmam held this way
What we are in the midst of now in the Holy Land is difficult to describe as “the beginning of the Redemption” (atchalta d’Geulah) but
it certainly represents great kindness.
[We have gone] from one extreme to the other—
from the extreme of suffering, the destruction of six million of our brethren, to
the opposite extreme—the settling of our people in our state in the Holy Land . . . .
Woe unto he who comes to judgment and is still so blind so as not to see something as clear as this
(Michtav Me’Eliyahu, vol. 3, p. 352).
.@SQUARE_ROOT
Yes all jews have chezkas kashrus. On top of that the OU is someone who we all eat their food. Moreover, Noone denies R Herzog said this over. Now granted R Herzog was as religous zionist as they come. Does anyone know how much he was moser nefesh to save jews during the holocuast? And how much torah he knew. I don’t know that even the Stamar reba would call him a liar. I am sure he held he was misguided and had wrong hashkofos but a lair?Furthermore, there is what we’d call a raglim ldvor. R Meltzer son became head of hesder and R isser zalman was very close to R Kook zl. All of this is facts.
When it doesn’t fit someone’s narrative they decide to bully and call us a lair
I don’t know if Rav Dessler wrote that, but either way it’s kefira in the Torah. It’s simply not “our state”, it’s not now and it never has been.
Chaim: He did not say it in public. You have only one source from a Zionist magazine quoting a Zionist Rabbi, because no other sources exist.
I don’t know that son, but whatever his position is no raya about anything about his father. Many tzadikim unfortunately had children where the apple fell far from the tree.
@somejewiknow
If R Desller wrote it it isn’t kefira. End of story. i am not as smart as you and don’t have every gotcha answer . i cant twist every response to the 3 shavous to disprove you. But we go with simple emuna of gedloim who said things via a mesora. if R desller , R isser zalman, and other said its an aschlta degulah then thats what it is. R wolfson zl said it was “shevri kelim” instead of moshiach and the 6- day war was a nes. I go with my mesora dn you can go with yours. but don’t call the other a kofer. And I am not interested in your lomdeshai drei kup sources or your theories about whether someone is a gadol. Or wheher it being said over vs wirtten in a sefer mattersa. Thats all just dering akup nonsense. We have our mesora for our rebbes and thats enough for judiasmP.S. calling it “our state” seems extreme even for me. But aschlta degulah or shveri kelim has a mesora from many.
lol.
rav dessler wrote it
and therefore in his opinion it is not kfira
and guess what everyone knows how close rav dessler was with the person you quote so much … the chazon ish
and how much chazon ish respected rav dessler
in chazon ish’s opinion rav dessler was definitely not a kofer
doesn’t have to be that chazon ish necessarily agreed to everything rav dessler said
but that is THE MAIN POINT of this story
you can disagree with someone and still respect him and his opinions as part of the wide ranging torah haskafa
which somejew ujm and katan apparently can’t
.@yankel berel
Its common theme here. Another big example is the respect the C chaim had for R Kook Zl. The naysayers will say the story of him walking out during the convention when they bshmutzed r kook was made up. But really was the whole thing made up? Moreover, there are multiple sources about the C Chaim’s respect for R kook. I heard from a chashiva RY bshem the Alfandri that he said the reaosn the C Chaim never made it to EY was that had he come he would have made shalom between R Kook zl and R Zonnenfeld zl and then moshiach would have came. It wasn’t ye the time. He also reviewed the mishana berurah for the chaim after his shver died. These are just a few. One can deny one story but there are multiple stories about their connection. We also all know about the famous visit to America. Initally they wanted R Chaim ozer to come but he was too weak so he sent the R Meir simcha and R kook zl. All poiting to the same thing. They may have disagreed but if he was a “kofer” what the c chaim and R chaim ozer held of him in such high esteem? Now i am sure the naysayer have an answer for everything. But its baloney. An answer doesn’t mean you are right , it just means you are a better debater. The truth lays within. Don;t get fazed by “their “bullying tactics. (I say “their” bec I suspect its all on bully person)Chaim can make up his stories, but they don’t change the facts that Zionism in all forms is treif, as written explicitly by the greatest gedolim.
And yes, of course there are answers to the weak questions implicit in the stories.But, bottom line, you have Rav Elchonon’s Kovetz Maamarim, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and all the rest who published that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. For example, the Brisker Rav published a KK in a newspaper, signed by, among others, the Gerrer Rebbe, that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. Those are the facts. And then there are Chaim’s stories.
thanks
We have to remember all the questions somejew and katan did not answer
the tur and sh’a and nosei keilim YD 156 , clearly contradicting their far fetched psak allegedly relying [or blaming ?] on mharal , mandating millions of jews to let themselves be slaughtered ch’v , october 7 style , rather than defending themselves and their families
their total and despicable irresponsibility for hiding behind indefensible platitudes , like ‘giving the land to esav’ without following up in –
specifying exactly which country ,
what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden , and
how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw , and
what the situation will be after their withdrawal …their huge leap from [even leshitatam] maharal who is talking about establishing a medina vs
our situation which is only maintaining an existing medina recognized by the overwhelming majority of nations
a distinction clearly approved by steipler in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1their total lack of massa umatan kedarka shel torah as practised in all , even so called minor questions , through the generations , their mehirut nora’a bechamurim shebechamurim [if they would not dress like haredim and act like haredim in other areas , one could suspect them to be members of Open Orthodoxy]
Shomu shamayim ….we mentally fall prey to their bully language accusing their opponents of kfira on every second step , but when we stop and think , we realize the tremendous weakness in their arguments …
.yankel berel:
The questions are not questions, but they were answered many times.Nobody ever said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course not. And the Zionist army is an absolute non-starter. Those two facts do not contradict each other in the slightest, as mentioned many times before.
It doesn’t matter which country of Esav rules the land, so long as it’s done right – and it can and should be done right. And if they rule that land, then they would treat it like any other land, and protect the inhabitants of that land, as they do in their lands and territories today.
The Steipler never permitted maintaining the “State” once it was established; that is a myth perpetuated by, among others, the “Religious Zionist” authority Rabbi H. Schachter, but it is totally false. The Steipler there stated only that voting in the “State”‘s internal elections was permitted, as in for council members, etc. as opposed to voting to establish the “State” which was forbidden.
Shomu Shamayim that people are still fooled by the Zionist idol.
@hakatan
1) they aren’t weak stories . They just don’t conform to you so it’s weak
2) many rabbonim including the holy hysatna zl said in public they have answers to everyone of the Satmar Reba responses but they won’t debate him. (My guess is he was a bully a bit. Yes a holy man and with so many going secular before and right after the war this was his way l. But a bully it was)
3) this is the main point . You have it all wrong.
It’s not about answers and philosophy. Anyone can dig up a med rash or Torah and say it. It’s about mesora . This was their belief . They said it’s a haschalta dgeula . And they openly said not to bashmutz R kook. No “answers” need to be said . If these holy people proclaimed it then that’s what it is period . Of course there are sources like the holy r elchanon zl hyd who disagreed . That makes it an equal
Machlokos both sides are holy or as you say shikul hadas is needed .
To repeat I don’t want answers or torahs . If a gadol or even holy Jew says it that’s enough@chaim87
thank you for sharing your kefira publicly for all to see. if you don’t care about the Torah that was given at Mount Sinai, and your only interest is whatever a “holy Jews says”, you are well beyond the threshold of traditional Judaism and the issurim of “ba’al tosif”.@SQUARE_ROOT
Why do you spew the same nonsense in multiple places on these boards? Better to have not done so to begin with.
Agudah’s lay leadership certainly does seem pro-Israel because they treat Israel like any other country in which Jews are living; they want that government (in this case, “government”) to treat its Jews well, so they advocate on behalf of the Jews living in that country. That doesn’t mean their approach is valid, but that is their approach.You spew the same nonsense in multiple threads. Agudath Israel’s lay leadership does come across that way because they think that this will help the Jews under Zionist control there. They are not pro-Israel; they are practical, and they think that their advocacy will help the Jews under Zionist control.
katan :
The questions are not questions, but they were answered many times.Nobody ever said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course not. And the Zionist army is an absolute non-starter. Those two facts do not contradict each other in the slightest, as mentioned many times before.
—
lol.
katan – robot claims that “Those two facts do not contradict each other in the slightest,”but consistently fails to explain what will happen when the idf lays down its weapons …
we asked a few pointed questions he REFUSES to answer
for example
1] specifying exactly which country will take over
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden , and
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw , and
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal …
in a REALISTIC manner – not even one percent less realistic than ‘katan robot’ himself would expect a doctor to answer him if his own little daughter would have to undergo major surgery ….
these are serious questions which deserve serious answers …
not ‘robot like platitudes’ like “giving the land to esav”
in case there are no serious answers forthcoming , we can take it as a sure sign that for katan robot , those pikuach nefesh concerns are not serious concerns at all …
probably because , as mentioned , according to those literal hasidim of vayoel moshe , like katan and somejew , who ignore clear psakim of shulhan aruch,
those pikuach nefesh concerns do not really exist at all
because , as mentioned, according to their krumme shitah , when faced a binary choice between certain mass death vs fighting in the ranks of a fully frum idf , they would prefer certain mass death.
so memeila there are no pikuach nefesh concerns at all anyhow .
so memeila there is no imperative to find pikuach nefesh solutions
whatever will happen , let it happen anyway ….
thats their thinking .
al hatsad there are no serious answers to the four questions above ….
holding my breath … for the four serious answers … which might disprove my theory mentioned above ….
.
.Katan and somejew clearly said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course.
They stated unambiguously that IDF’s actions should be stopped immediately and that this is yehareig veal yaavor .
translated to good plain English : even if innocent people would die as result of IDF stopping to act , they should still stop.
katan and somejew did not put a number on those people dying , so it follows that even if all yehudim in EY would die as a result, IDF should still stop.
after a lot of pressure, the source of such a far reaching psak was unveiled : it is a peirush of maharal in his agadic sefer netsach yisrael perek 24.
however what somejew and katan have failed to do , even after a lot of pressure , is to explain why they choose to paskan like mharal in pikuach nefesh hachamura , when said agadic maharal is CONTRADICTED by tur, sh’a and nosei keilim in YD 157:1
who state that for all averot, besides the three hamurot , a Jew is not to sacrifice any Jewish life.
meaning that pikuach nefesh is docheh all other averot , including the [so called] avera of the oaths
this has been repeated on these pages multiple times but without any answer ….
.
.@katan
.Steipler clearly permitted maintaining the “State” once it was established; that is a fact clearly stated in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1 ,this has nothing at all to do with r shacter .
read it yourself in karyana de’igrata.
..
robot katan repeats the same fallacy again and again as if it becomes any more true by its repetition
his mantra is : “It doesn’t matter which country of Esav rules the land, so long as it’s done right …. And if they rule that land, then they would treat it like any other land, and protect the inhabitants of that land, as they do in their lands and territories today.”
robot katan apparently does not realize that he calls his own trustworthiness in to question
robot katan would never rely on this type of robot thinking if the question at hand would be katan’s own little daughter undergoing major surgery
would he rely on such obvious lazy thinking , same as he himself employed when the question of pikuach nefesh of millions of his own sisters and brothers are at stake ?
for sure not .
so the q is : why does he rely on such crap when pikuach nefesh of his own brothers and sisters are at stake ????
.
.
..
yankel > .Steipler clearly permitted maintaining the “State”
I am trying to understand why a dialog on certain topics is clearly not happening. I think the reason is that people who were reading or, more likely, hearing stories about events in previous 100 years, hear censored narratives where all rabbis were following certain shitah and never talked with anyone else – they are not able to believe any information that contradicts that narrative – and they come up that every quote that is not from their narrative is obviously fake. That might explain the story of “making of a gadol” that was a very well researched book – but allowed information that is usually censored, This is an example where a desire to have strong social bonds within the community clash with Torah value of Emes and, while admiring how it kept large communities away from dangers, the danger of developing non-Emes community in the name of Torah is also immense.
@Yankel Berel:
Nope. Nobody stated “wholesale slaughter”, R”L L”A. You made that up.
And, no, the Steipler (not in KA and not anywhere else) did not permit maintaining the “State” once it was founded – just voting in its internal elections – and, yes, it was Rabbi Schachter who promulgated that “misunderstanding”.Nobody asked the Zionists to invade and make the cataclysmic mess that they did. In fact, the Jews there begged the Zionists not to invade and to leave once they did. How the mess will be cleaned up is something that only G-d knows. But the closest solution seems to be what I posted. If it’s not “airtight” enough for you, you can blame that on the wicked Zionists who have caused terrible trouble for Jews for over a century and got their Zionist paradise into what it is today.
@somejewiknow
Wrong if a holy Jew says it that is Torah msina. I don’t buy that your Torah is from sina . One can find a medresh for any viewpoint when it comes to these topics. Beautiful you can drei akup and find all the right things to support you . But they also have sources and never backed down . Unless you are as big as them your words mean nothing to me . No offense . So like I’d rather trust R Moshe Wolfson zl than you . That’s not kefira. And I’d rather trust the holy hysatner or sadiguyera Reba than you . Sorry I boxed you in because I won’t fall for your bully tactics where everyone else source is bad and only yours is good. It’s not kefira to say that a holy tzadik held Zionism is a haschalta degula and I hold of it. No he need not be the leading gadolkatan :
…. the closest solution seems to be what I posted. [i.e. give the land to esav]
If it’s not “airtight” enough for you, you can blame that on the wicked Zionists who have caused terrible trouble for Jews for over a century and got their Zionist paradise into what it is today.—
lol.
katan probably failed ‘reading comprehension’ in school …your solution of ‘giving the land to esav’
is it ‘airtight’ enough FOR YOUR OWN LITTLE DAUGHTERS MAJOR SURGERY ? yes or no answer please ….katan has not commented whether such an answer would suffice for katan’s little daughter ….
Why not ?
.
.
we asked four basic questions here .why is katan refusing to answer ?????
lets repeat those questions again . maybe we will be more lucky now :
1] specifying exactly which country will take over
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden , and
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw , and
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal …
in a REALISTIC manner –
.
.
????
.@square
@katandon’t have karyane de’igrata with me now, but will bln quote it
.
.katan :
If it’s not “airtight” enough for you, you can blame that on ….
—
again, where is katan’s reading comprehension ?
who is looking for blame ???
when hatsole attends to a call – are they looking to B L A M E ?
or are they looking for the best and safest solution going forward ?
we are talking P I K U A C H N E F E S H here , mr katan !!!!
when faced with P I K U A C H N E F E S H , one deals with it , one researches the best way , one loses sleep in finding the exact solution , maybe when in kindergarten one looks for blame …..
simply unbelievable – blame !?!?!
.
.Chaim87:
“It’s not kefira to say that a holy tzadik held Zionism is a haschalta degula and I hold of it. No he need not be the leading gadol”Yes, that certainly is kefirah, no matter which stories you tell, because the facts remain that the founding of the Zionist “State” was, as the Brisker Rav put it, “the greatest triumph of the satan since the cheit heEigel” and that claiming that this mass rebellion against G-d is the beginning of the redemption is a total mockery of the Torah, on its face. By now, it’s even more silly to claim that, because Zionism has been around for over a century by now, so if their “State” was really supposed to be the start of the redemption, then the redemption should have happened long, long ago.
Back then, in the stories you keep mentioning, even if there were some people who didn’t know the Torah’s rules and, back then, were fooled into thinking the impossible that this extreme rebellion against G-d (Zionism and its “State”) was somehow the beginning of the redemption, still, that mistake could have been made only in 1948 or perhaps a year or two later. To make that claim now is simply silly, as mentioned.
By that “logic”, the Gr”a’s students moving to E”Y was the aschalta diGeulah. Or, more likely, everyone knows that we just follow the Torah’s rules and understand that an extreme rebellion against G-d (meaning, Zionism and its “State”) is exactly that – a rebellion against G-d – and obviously not the beginning of the redemption. Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D already noted that Zionism and its State were obviously not the aschalta diGeula, as did all the rest as well.
@ HaKatan
Yea sure you have sources like Briska Rav and R elchanon. But so what? I have the rizyna Rebas, r isser zalman, r dessler etc. (There are many more)
The idea that haschalta degula can’t last for 75+ years is silly . Maybe it can last for 200 years . That’s your own made up theory. Meanwhile I heard from tzadkim of today the same. You know how to make up nice Torahs and drei akup. We have mesora . This is a new twist that you made up. Who says it’s only a year or two. No it’s not a rebellion of our torah. Those are your catchy buzzwords . And yes you’ll qoute from R elchanon but that’s him. There are two sides so no zionism is not a rebellion . But I’ll tell you what is . Secularism is a rebellion . So for that I agree with you . But hesder for example is tzadikimArguing with katan is similar to arguing with a deaf person .
Nu katan – any response to the analogy to hatsole ?
why is b l a m e relevant in pikuach nefesh discussions ?
is it because pikuach nefesh is not a serious issue in your eyes ????
is this the reason you suffice with the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ????
is this the reason you absolutely refuse to give even one example of a western nation governing another population with different culture religion and language ????
we need answers – not lectures !
.
.Nu mr katan – any response to the analogy to hatsole ?
why is b l a m e relevant in pikuach nefesh discussions ?
is it because pikuach nefesh is not a serious issue in your eyes ????
is this the reason you suffice with the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ????
is this the reason you absolutely refuse to give even one example of a western nation governing another population with different culture religion and language ????
we need answers – not lectures !
.
.Katan consistently fails to explain what will happen when the IDF lays down its weapons …
we asked a few pointed questions he REFUSES to answer
for example
1] specifying exactly which country will take over
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden , and
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw , and
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal …
in a REALISTIC manner – not even one percent less realistic than ‘katan robot’ himself would expect a doctor to answer him if his own little daughter would have to undergo major surgery ….
these are serious questions which deserve serious answers …
not ‘robot like platitudes’ like “giving the land to esav”
in case there are no serious answers forthcoming , we can take it as a sure sign that for katan , those pikuach nefesh concerns are not serious concerns at all …
.
.@yankel berel
you can’t let a bully win. We need to bully him back. And to start arguing gemaras and medrshim is pointless. He will have a torah and drei for everything as to why he is right. But when its simple emuna pshuta where we know bug tzadkim (gedolim or not) said things not like him its simple. who do you trust them or the “small” ha”katan”? (yes he will say they weren’t enough of a gadol bla bla but they were holy people so to bad on him)katan’s tremendous weaknesses in torah are very clear , once you go through it step by step
his tactic is sidestepping and not engaging with the thrust of the arguments and proofs he is up against
he repeats like a broken clock again and again the same platitudes
which give his words a learned veneer
but when it comes to true massa umatan shel torah , he is empty
likewise with somejew , the only difference being that somejew could get angry and get personal
when he is at a loss for proper answers kedarka shel torah , whereafter he totally disappears
only to reappear much later and start afresh as if he never left anything unanswered
both suffer from the same derangement syndromes that
A] every word the holy SR uttered must be taken literally lechumra velekula
B] all chazal, all rishonim, all poskim, all rabanim from sheshet yemei breishit till this very day , agree with me
C] anyone who disagrees with me, is either a kofer or someone who cannot read
D] the reality as I see it , is THE absolute reality , and there is not even one thousand’s percent chance that I should be mistaken in any small detail in the reality as I perceive it .
—
If only those two would take a deep breath and have very long and very honest look in the mirrorthey would admit to the veracity of all these observations.
It’s not too late
they still can ….
.Nu
ujm and katan , where are you ?
.we are waiting …
.Nu ?
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