November 23, 2008 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1077693
PY, Please. Don’t fardray the heilige Chofetz Chaim. According to your krum logic, the MB permits tight clothing so long it is below the knee. Slits are assur; if you do it anyways, at least don’t try to be matir chazar.November 23, 2008 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1077694
Joseph, not a good dimyon. Adding material can never decrease the level of tznius. There is no way that a 40 inch long skirt (for arguments sake) can be more tzniusdig than a 46″ long skirt with a 6″ long slit. Simply no way.November 23, 2008 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1077695
What do you think about bugaboo carriages..the whole world is walking around with these not normally expensive carriages in very color! I think its nuts!November 23, 2008 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1077696
Just FYI, a 40″ skirt would be way too long on the average woman, let alone the 46.November 23, 2008 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1077697
Re: Mrs. Beautiful
They are really practical and light very easy to fold. The world isn’t madly into something without a reason take that as a Klal…November 23, 2008 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1077698
Ya know I just noticed this new cap sleeve fad, I think it is totally not Tzniusdig, especially when there is a contrasting color, say a white short sleeve sweater with a black tight shell. Besides for the fact that the shell hugs the arm, the contrast of colors is so flashy that it should be completely banned!!
Why do we need to copy the horrific styles of these shiksas in Manhattan!! Is that who we look to emulate?November 24, 2008 5:26 am at 5:26 am #1077699
The total lack of tznius today is a terrible machla on us. We need to do a lot to alleviate this tznius crisis. Anything towards that goal, is highly commendable.November 24, 2008 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1077701
Yes, I agree with Heimishe Yid. It’s the latest styles that kick in so fast before you know it the whole town is walking around like twins!November 24, 2008 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1077702
It really irks me to no end when people dont understand that there are varying halachic opinions on many sources.
So yes, you hold that slits are not ok, but I hold they are (per my halachic source). No one should be decrying “How terrible is tznius these days that someone holds by a different psak” which is basically what many of you are saying.
Eyesopen – I hate to break this to you, but we all wear the clothing of the goyim. Yes, many of the styles sold in Jewish stores have been Jewified (AKA sleeves longer, collar higher, skirt longer) but they are ALL the styles of non Jews. Men wear the suit styles of non Jews. Chasidim wear the fashions of 18th century Polish royalt (AKA non Jews).
If you really think this is terrible, please return to the proper attire that we wore in the desert – that includes sandals.November 24, 2008 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1077703
Tznius comes from within. Two people can wear the same clothing but it looks totally different on both. This is due to how both women project themselves.
If someone needs an excuse to wear a slit e.e the skirt is too long to walk comfortably they know jolly well they should shorten the skirt but they opt not to because they want to wear what they want.
Sometimes a longer skirt can be less tzniusdik than a shorter skirt – again depends on the wearer
There is no problem to dress trendy, fashionable or modern – use whatever words you want but tznius is another matter. It should come naturally.
Any female can becomne a woman. Not everyone can be a lady.November 24, 2008 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1077704
Nobody – I don’t need an excuse to wear a slit because I don’t hold that its wrong to wear one. If someone is trying to excuse it, it means they think its wrong and are trying to convince themselves.
As for wearing a shorter skirt if you need a slit – in the winter, I prefer to wear long skirts because its cold. I generally wear tights underneath, but frequently need a slit in the skirt to be able to walk comfortably. Not a problem for me, because my Rabbi doesnt hold its assur. If you hold its assur, please do not wear a slit. You would be violating your psak.November 24, 2008 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1077705
SJSinNYC I did not say anything about sliys being Osur. I said…. If someone needs an excuse to wear slits…..This was meant rhetorical. There was nothing personal said in my post and there is no need to jump back on the defense.
Everyone should wear what they want.
I will reiterate that if you take two identical outfits and put them on two different people and the image projected by both women will be totally different.November 24, 2008 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1077706
I know a rabbi who paskens you can drive to shul on Shabbos if you live to far. Live and let live. I hope SJS agrees to live with varying halachic opinions and would not be against all of this rabbis congregants driving to shul on Shabbos. Right SJS?November 24, 2008 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1077707
your comparison between wearing a slit and be being mechalal shabbos by driving is ridiculous.November 24, 2008 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1077708
… as driving to shul on shabbos invovles transgressing a number melachos doraisa that are mentioned bfeirish
were as wearing a slit below the knee is not uncovering any erva and is only held to be ossur by some because THEY HOLD it is to flashy,
it is an opinion not a fact,
you obviosly hold by your rov’s opinion wich is fine, but if another rov has a diffrent opinion then your rov there is nothing wrong with somone holding like that rov.November 24, 2008 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1077709
000646 you missed the point. Joesph was merely stating that you ill get Rabbi’s that are matir something which the world takes as ossur.November 24, 2008 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1077710
“I know a rabbi who paskens you can drive to shul on Shabbos if you live to far. Live and let live. I hope SJS agrees to live with varying halachic opinions and would not be against all of this rabbis congregants driving to shul on Shabbos. “
You lessen the impact and credibility of your point when you make a statement like this. How do you compare mamesh Chillul Shabbos, unquestionable, Chillul Shabbos, with a fashion style? Show me in the Torah where there is an halacha (not merely an opinion, one of many) specifically prohibiting slit skirts (and the reasons for same), and I will never wear one again, bli neder. I can show you several places in the Torah from which we derive that riding to Shul on Shabbos would be absolutely assur.November 24, 2008 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1077711
Nobody: a kick pleat or insert may work.
Funny, 30 years ago I was taught that slits are not assur per se but just to realize that wherever the slit begins, consider the skirt that short. So a slit situated such that the knee would still be well covered when sitting was no problem. Somewhere along the line, slits became assur altogether in my circles. If I ever run into the teacher who taught me the first approach, I’d love to know what happened. Meanwhile, I have no problem toeing the line.November 24, 2008 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1077712
my point was just that the rabbonim who hold it is ossur only hold this because of there OPINION that it is to flashy.
if another person and there rov dont have this opinion (that it is to flashy) there is no reason for them to listen to it at all as it IS JUST AN OPINION not a fact(unless they are in a town were MOST people are of that opinion.)November 24, 2008 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1077713
Joseph…the others have said responded well for me. That post was ridiculous. There is a big difference between basic halacha and opinion based halacha. Feel free to jump down my throat, but I am sure you understand what I mean.
noitall – read the posts of 000646 and oomis. Then read what I wrote just above.November 24, 2008 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1077714
Two Rabbis are stranded on a desert island. 24 hours later they have three different opinions on……………………………………………………..everything!!
Jokes aside, as with everything, everyone must go to the Rov they feel comfortable with. Some people will specially go a specific Rov knowing he is lenient in an area they want him to be. Good luck to them.
100 posts down the line we’ll get nowhere. Those who say they are allowed to wear slits, on, below or above the knee for all I care, will continue to quote Rabbonim from here to kingdom come.
Tzippi, it’s not only the knee – a slit at the back anywhere near the knee rides abve the knee. So it’s not just about sitting, but standing, walking etc.
But to be honest- leave me out of the argument. Let everyone do what they think is right, I’m really not bothered. It’s their problem at the end of the day.November 24, 2008 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1077715
“I know a rabbi who paskens you can drive to shul on Shabbos if you live to [sic] far. Live and let live. I hope SJS agrees to live with varying halachic opinions and would not be against all of this rabbi’s congregants driving to shul on Shabbos.”
Can’t speak for SJS, but I would not be against this. I’d NEVER do it myself, but I have no problem with others doing it. (Yes, I know you offered this premise sarcastically, but I really would not have a problem with it!)November 24, 2008 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1077716
The point is not to be flashy, and slits are! It is so easy to make a kickpleat there is really no excuse for a slit. Someone told me that her usband is reallt unobservant but one thing he said that he really finds flashy is slingback shoes. Especially when the tight are a different color than the shoe. I can really understand that. Woman dont have as many Mitzvos as men, lets keep ours sacred.November 25, 2008 3:01 am at 3:01 am #1077718
jf2 – what is your religious affiliation? that last comment of your strongly indicates it is something OTHER than Orthodox.November 25, 2008 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1077719
Reading through this thread, my head is spinning.
Short skirt, no good. Long skirt, no good.(confusing)
Slit, no good. (but what if skirt is too tight to walk in?)
Cap sleeves with shirt worn under, no good. (that one truly baffles me)
Slingback shoes, no good. (?)
…did I miss anything…November 25, 2008 4:17 am at 4:17 am #1077720
dont have internetMember
btw-i dont like the shortsleeves over longsleeves look-never did but so many people that i would never dream in a million years would were it are! alot of those people are even the ones i discussed it with and they agreed with me…then…….and noone give me the excuse that u cant find longsleeves even in the summer i never had trouble findingNovember 25, 2008 6:54 am at 6:54 am #1077722
Jewess, there is no shortage of beautiful and modest clothing out there. It really depends where u shop and who u r trying to impress. There is no doubt about it that the way u dress is a reflection of who u r and who u aspire to be inside.November 25, 2008 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #1077723
While you brought up some very good points, I do not agree that it is NOT about inches etc. It is also about looking like a bas yisroel, but it is both, not one or the other.November 25, 2008 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1077725
It irks you that people consider your standards to be horribly untziusdig while you consider it to be perfectly fine. Please realize that no one sees themselves. Someone who is used to a very tzniusdig way of dressing, ia “irked” wgeb seeubg people dressed in a much lower standard. Instead of being bothered that people do not agree with your way of doing things, maybe look up to them and think of some goals to eventually reach. You are very set in your ways and don’t seem to think that there is anything in your life that can be changed. I know that there are things I do/don’t do that some people would look down on but on the other hand, I know I am not perfect and am on this world to grow. I may never reach their level but at least I don’t look down on it. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you do realize that you have potential to grow but at least don’t look at other people’s criticism as “narrow-mindned”. Not accepting a higher standard is also “narrow-minded” in my opinion.
Please don’t take this as a personal attack. I am just expressing my opinion about what you said. I hope I didn’t come across as offensive.November 25, 2008 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1077726
Have you ever heard of a mashal, or figurative language? I don’t think Joseph meant that driving on shabbos is comparable to wearing a slit.
I do think he meant that “my rav allows…” is not always an answer. There are many type of rabbanim, ultra orthodox, orthodox, modern orthodox, conservative, reform… are they all right? You will probably say yes, but I say NO. Many (most) of them are wrong, wrong, wrong!
Do you consider ANY and ALL forms of “Judaism” valid?
There is nothing more to be said if you have no problem with any rav saying anything. If you encounter a “Rabbi” who says that there is no G-d (CHAS VESHALOM) Would you have no problem with that? (Now don’t start explaining to me that driving on shabbos is not as bad as atheism…)
(Also what about the Tzidokim and karaim who did not believe in Torah ba’al peh. If you would all be living in those times, would you say, live and let live????)November 25, 2008 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1077727
Intellegent, I have no problem with people being more machmir. I respect their desire to become more strict with their observance. However, when they preach about certain things being 100% assur, when they are NOT, but just held by a more machmir group – that irks me. Also, looking down on me for being not tzanua irks me – I may not have the standards YOU do, but that doesnt mean my standards are not halachically acceptable.
I had a teacher in 8th grade (a very impressionable time in my life) who used to yell at us that long skirts were 100% assur. She also yelled at me for wearing ankle bracelets under my tights. She would assur everything that didnt fit into her narrow view of Judaism, even if most other people held differently.
It really took me four years of high school to understand how she went wrong. Unfortuantely, this is a problem plaguing the Jewish community today – we assur things that are mutar, and then kids get fed up and do actual assurim because they really dont understand the difference. If everything is assur, kids wont want to keep anything. One of the beautiful things about Judaism is that there is rarely one right answer. But when we teach that there is only one, we lose a lot of understanding of the Torah.
As for Joseph’s comment – there is a BIG difference between varying halachic psaks vs something that is 100% assur. So yes, my rabbi might hold differently than yours, but its still within the valid lanes of halacha. Being mechalel shabbos is totally different.
I dont condone anyone driving to shul on shabbos, but if they did, I would hope it was because they were trying to get closer to Judaism. And maybe driving to shul (since they would be doing other mechalel shabbos things during the day anyway) will bring them closer to true Torah judaism.
Mrs Beautiful – the problem is, everything like “slingbacks” is subjective. My coworker told me he loves to walk through Boro Park (he lives nearby) because he finds the idea of a woman completely covered very enticing – it leads to him wondering about whats underneath. He also told me that he loves knowing their hair is covered because he imagines the hair is solely for him. So, do we make women wear less because of him? NO! He is just creepy. Everyone has their own vices, but that doesnt mean all women should stop because of it. I dont even think my husband would know WHAT slingbacks are.November 25, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1077728
but how do YOU know wich ones are right?
you dont. there is no way to know.
you follow the rabonnim who’s ideas make the most sense to you or the ones you were brought up with.
if somone elses rov makes more sense to them or they were brought up with a diffrent rov you have no way to know if you are right and therefore have no right to tell people who disagree with you that they are wrong, you can tell them how it seems to you, but that is just your opinion and you can not hold it against people who disagree with your opinion on this just like you wouldnt on any other opinion you have like what color paint looks good in a house or what type of food is good.November 25, 2008 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1077729
Mrs. Beautiful, the business about flashy is exactly the point. Many people would say that shortening the skirt to get rid of the slit (as someone suggested) is 100 times more flashy and far worse from a tznius point of view. We really need to leave our opinions out and follow what the halacha says, which is that the knee and above must be covered at all times. Anything else is a pure invention of the person making the statement, reflecting his or her own personal fashion tastes. We simply cannot have halacha based on subjective opinions.
My daughter once brought home a camp list saying that the zipper or the pockets were forbidden or had to be only in the front or only in the back, and I don’t even remember which way now, since it was so arbitrary. I actually aggravated my daughter telling her some of her skirts were improper, and should now ask mechila, since after researching the matter, there was nothing wrong. It was just a figment of the camp director’s imagination.
Same thing with my son’s clothing guide for yeshiva saying that bobby pins were forbidden. I firmly believe that if we would put in half as much energy into following real halachos as into imaginary ones, moshiach would have come already.November 26, 2008 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1077731
The Big OneParticipant
Atheism, the Reform, and Conservatives are incompatible with Judaism and the Torah.November 26, 2008 3:57 am at 3:57 am #1077732
I can only tryMember
Shabbos is one of the most precious commodities we have.
Its value exceeds what the richest person on earth posesses.
For Bill Gates’s entire fortune – wealth beyond his wildest dreams for himself and future generations – the average Shomer Shabbos Jew would not strike a single match on Shabbos.
We unfortunately can’t change the world, and few of us are talented and dedicated enough to influence even a single person, but we must never be blase or accepting of chilul Shabbos.
The other issues discussed here are pittances compared to Shabbos. If not for a single instance of chilul Shabbos in the midbar, Moshiach would have been here thousands of years ago.
It is in many cases good to be open-minded, libertarian, and see things from others’ perspective. Shabbos is not one of them. Realizing that we can’t change people who are mechalel Shabbos doesn’t mean that we should accept with equanimity their chilul Shabbos.November 26, 2008 4:20 am at 4:20 am #1077733
i think this thread needs to be renamed. then even more people can weigh in with their opinions.November 26, 2008 6:04 am at 6:04 am #1077734
I consider my self very sensitive to nuances of tznius, but I don’t understand why there is an issue with short sleeves over long sleeves (assuming the long sleeves are not too tight). Why is this different than wearing a vest over a long sleeve shirt? Can someone please enlighten me?November 26, 2008 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1077735
I agree 100% that halacha needs to be followed. However, U can be wearing a skirt 4 inches below ur knee, covered elbows etc. and look PRUST! There are some things that cant be defined to halacha, and therefore women have an added sense of what we call “Sensitivity”. This is completely based on the community in which u live. However, if u live in Boro Park dont come and say “whats wrong with…” If u are not interested in conforming with the tznius of a certain town or camp, then dont knock that place, either conform, lower urself or U DONT BELONG THERE. I know many pple that have become more tzniusdig because they went to a certain camps that had certain tznius rules that they didnt keep beforehand. ITS a backwards attitude to talk bad about a camp tznius rule! U think they make these rules for their health? They do it for the ruchnius and atmosphere of the camp, school, etc!
In school some girls used to complain to a sec. “in this and this school they dont have to ….” the sec. said “so then why are u here, if u want their lifestyle…”
that is the truth, u sent ur son, daughter to a frum camp u should be pleased if its a growing experience!November 26, 2008 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1077738
in regard to the tznuius thread, read the book “oz vhadar levusha.” Its a little machmir but you’ll get a clearer picture of why certain clothes should not be worn. I wear most types of clothes out there but as far as slits go, I see on my friends’ skirts when they wear slits on short skirts, guys get extremely attracted to it, probably when their upper leg keeps flashing through, and girls really need to be aware of what they are causing when they wear these skirts.
with cap sleeves, they are halachically tznius and thats mostly what you’ll find in department stores. I think it’s beautiful when you can instantly recognize a jewish girl when she makes sure to wear a long sleeved shell under something that is otherwise not tznuisNovember 26, 2008 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1077739
I did not mean that they look down on YOU. They may look down on your values/hashkofos which they have a perfect right to.
How do YOU know that Judaism is more right than other religions? I am not saying that anyone’s rabbi (SJSinNYC’s…) is WRONG. I am just saying, that not all Rabbis can be relied upon as any appikores can become a “Rabbi”.
Your hashkofos are SKEWED. Judaism CANNOT be kept according to the way someone feels like. There are clear halachos that have to be kept. No one can convince themselves that they will get Gan Eden for being a “Jew at heart” and for supposedly “loving H-m”. That is just a good (bad) excuse for giving into their taavos.
I am not sure why YWN allowed your comment to be posted as it is so clearly against Torah values.November 26, 2008 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1077740
my point was very simple,
YOU cannot decide wich rabbis can be relied on.
you can only decide wich ones you wish to follow (wich is only an opinion you happen to have).
my reasons for beleiving in g-d in general and in judaisim in particular are irrelevent to this conversation.November 26, 2008 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1077741
You also have no right to look down at people who have a diffrent opinion on wich rabbis to follow the same way you wouldnt look down at somone for having a diffrent opinion then you on what constitutes good food.November 26, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1077742
Yeshivishmom, In tzinues there is alot of extra things that you do because u feel right about it, which is why it is so hard to answer those people who say “where does it say…” Most of my friends wear short sleeves over long sleeves, it is not only a t-shirt look but they make very nice shabbos tops and suite jackets as well. I dont know in seminary I just felt something about it, I didnt feel like a bas melech, it is a look and I just didnt think I felt like malchus in it. So I gave away all my short sleeve tops, it is hard because most of the stores sell pretty things, but lifes all aobut struggle.
A teacher of mine told us she sees a bigger problem with slingbacks than high heels, so it all depends on you and how you feel about that matter. But always try to highten and raise your sensativities.November 26, 2008 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1077743
I didn’t realize that I mentioned in my post that I look down on people who have different opinions… Also, I know in Pirkei Avos it says, Asei Lecha Rav, so obviously I do accept that there are different Rabbanim with different opinions. What I meant was simply that not all Rabbanim are valid at all. That does not mean that I don’t accept other standards.November 26, 2008 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1077744
I think that cap sleeves is not only a tznius issue, but also an issue of Chukas HaGoyNovember 26, 2008 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1077745
anon for thisParticipant
G123’s post about Chukas HaGoy reminds me of another random question I had and once posted on another thread:
Plaid skirts are generally worn by Catholic schoolgirls, so why are these not considered Chukas HaGoyim? Why are they part of so many Bais Yaakov uniforms?November 26, 2008 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1077746
I heards that the Rabbanim spoke quite strongly against cap sleeves by the Lakewood Tznius Asifa.November 26, 2008 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1077747
G123 – is it chkas hagoyim if Jew started the trend first? Non Jews have only ercently picked up on it, but I know about 15 years ago it was big in the area I live in.November 26, 2008 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1077749
Let us see if we can work out a compromise here. We must agree that there is nothing wrong with any garment that covers the required halachic areas. There may be other reasons why a person would or should wear better clothes. For instance, I never wear blue jeans or shorts , since I don’t think it is bkovodig. However, there is certainly no halachic reason why blue jeans should not be worn.
Instead of calling these issues tznius, which they are not, maybe they should go under another name. I have no clue what cap sleeves are or what slingback shoes are. Nevertheless, if a person feels demeaning when wearing them, then by all means don’t. If you want a higher level of professionalism, then wear better clothes. However, do not look down at people who follow halacha. Do not look down at people who do not follow halacha either. I have very good friends who do wear jeans and shorts. To each his own.
If a woman wants to wear short sleeves over long sleeves, then why not? If she feels it is too casual, or makes her feel silly, and she has a responsible position, or even just for her personal tastes, then don’t. However, let us not drag tznius into this, as it is strictly a matter of taste.November 27, 2008 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1077750
Bais Yaakov maydelParticipant
shindy: there is a small pamphlet-like book that is probably sold in eichlers or a judaica/ torah treasures place….its called “Hee Tishallel (in hebrew) A Practical Guide to Tznius” by Rabbi Yaakov E. Forchheimer from Lakewood. he writes that “The men should speak to the men, and the women to the women. Although this woman may be your best friend’s wife, to you she is an eshes ish, and therefore an erva….The same is true for the women….By the same token, men and women who are not related should not call one another by their first names.” (page 37)Rabbi F. cites this from the Ibn HaEzer (Ibn Ezra), biShem the Maharshal.
hope this helped.
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