January 3, 2012 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #848392
Yichusdic, Chareidi girls have already been spitten on by the freie. Otherwise, the Chasidim are making a machoh. Is it wise? I do not know. Incertain cases. for sure, not.
Btw, do you hold of Pinchas nen Elozar ben Aharon ha’Kohen?January 3, 2012 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #848393
So, you equate the spitter with pinchas?January 3, 2012 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #848394gavra_at_workParticipant
So, you equate the spitter with pinchas?
How about “Ose Ma’ase Zimri V’Rotze Schar K’Pinchas”?January 3, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #848396
mdd, Pinchos ben Elazar took two lives – of a Jewish sinner and a non Jewish woman not bound by torah; he did it knowing with the ruach hakodesh he had that it was a seminal turning point, and that Moshe Rabeinu was not in a position at that moment to stop the sinning among b’nei Yisroel. He willingly gave up that part of the neshomo that is torn when one takes a life, even for a valid reason. HKBH granted him a special brocho, of shleimus, which he had given up, “hineni nosain lo es brisi sholom” to make him complete once again. Do not presume for even a second to be on the madreiga of the grandson of Aharon, of one of the holiest people who ever lived. Do not presume to have the insight or the hashpo’os that he had that informed his decision making. Do not presume that because he was a kanoi, it is a free pass for anyone who believes he is upholding torah to do anything they feel they should. That is a base misuse and abuse of Torah.January 3, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #848397tahiniMember
Rav Shach zt”l Ponevezher Rav did not just have a grandson in the army, but a grand daughter too!!! When she arrived at the gates of the yeshiva the bochurim were astounded to see her greeted by her grandfather.January 3, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #848398sam4321Participant
mdd: learn shanhedrin 81B for kani laws(not so simple).January 4, 2012 1:04 am at 1:04 am #848399
Popa, there are heterim, for example, if she sings through a micrrophone. Obviously the Army Rabbinate was consulted and it was decided that there is a need which justifies relying on kulot.
Who are you fooling? Yourself?
And since it is therefore a ??? ???, and also it is a davar sh’bervah, it is probably ???? ??? ?????.
Look, I know you’ve invested emotion in this, but you need to face the facts: The secular leadership hates torah, and wants us to not be frum.
What about the fact that you are mevatel an asseh (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1 AND 6:4)? As we all know, an asseh is doche a lo taaseh (if kol isha is d’oraita, which is not clear). Not to mention the fact that the Chofetz Chaim encouraged young Jewish men to join Goyish armies – and asked those who planned to dodge the draft what they would do when we have our owm state and army -even though they would have to do many more issurim.
Let’s see, you wrote 84 words, when all you meant to say was that you are an ?? ????, which is only 5 words!(“I am an ?? ????”=five words.) What a waste of typing!
But, since you apparently only know the rambam’s about fighting wars, I don’t understand how you missed Melachim 6:13 http://hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?mfid=90418&rid=14961 which only allows 4 specific issurim to be broken in a war camp, and only while actually going to or returning from war (not while at social functions), and all 4 are derabanan, as the kessef mishna notes that they could not permit d’oraisah’s.
However, I think I now understand your mindset here. R’ Akiva said that when he was an ?? ????, he hated the chachomim so much that he wanted to bite them like a donkey bites (donkeys break bones, he explained). That is why you hate the gedolim. It is quite understandable.January 4, 2012 1:25 am at 1:25 am #848400
Has this “ban” been corroborated by any other source?
This is the type of story that a secular press would be all over with provocative headlines and even more provocative “reporting”.January 4, 2012 2:54 am at 2:54 am #848401
Popa, anything which is needed for the morale of the troops is part of pikuach nefesh. Obviously there was a reason why a distinction was made between ceremonies and entertainment.
As for heterim, read Rabbi Bleich’s article on the subject in Contemporary Halachic Problems (offhand I do not remeber if it is in vol. 1 or 2 but you might benefit from both volumes).January 4, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #848402
Popa, anything which is needed for the morale of the troops is part of pikuach nefesh. Obviously there was a reason why a distinction was made between ceremonies and entertainment.
And factually inaccurate anyway, since the Chief of Staff said it was to make a point about feminism.
As for heterim, read Rabbi Bleich’s article on the subject in Contemporary Halachic Problems (offhand I do not remeber if it is in vol. 1 or 2 but you might benefit from both volumes).
oooh. The big talmid chochom has read a couple of English books. He’s read volumes 1 and 2.
You know, if you actually did a little bit of real learning, you’d know how ridiculous you sound, pulling heterim out of your tuches, that are completely inapplicable.January 4, 2012 5:22 am at 5:22 am #848403
PBA: I think you’re a little over the top here, on two counts. Anything pertaining to Pikuach Nefesh is Muttar in war. Those 4 things are Muttar for an army even with no Pikuach Nefesh involved, because there are some things where we like making the soldiers’ lives easier. And I don’t think this counts as a Shmad for Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor (though if it did it would be irrelevant whether or not this was an Ervah issue), but I have to think about that more. But yes, you are correct that much of the secular leadership in Israel wants us not to be Frum. However, it’s not everyone, it’s probably not even a majority, and that group might not make them not worth dealing with (that probably depends on the individual cases).January 4, 2012 5:23 am at 5:23 am #848404
Yihusdic, drei nit ken kup !Do not give me all this Kabbalah explanations. The mitsva to give tochecha, stopping sinners apllies to all times! Learn Brochos 20A. The Torah does not change over time. You should be disgusted by all the aveiros. One does not have to be on huge madregos to be moche.January 4, 2012 6:07 am at 6:07 am #848405
Sam2: Ok, you I can discuss it with.
Anything pertaining to Pikuach Nefesh is Muttar in war. Those 4 things are Muttar for an army even with no Pikuach Nefesh involved, because there are some things where we like making the soldiers’ lives easier.
Unless it is ???? ??? ?????.
My first post on this issue was where he was not claiming there was a pikuach nefesh, just he invented an asei docheh lo taasei. Surely you agree that it is inapplicable. And to that I brought a good proof from the rambam, even though no proof was necessary that you cannot just do any issur while performing a mitzva.
I intended davar sh’bervah as a separate reason for it to be yehareg v’al yaavor. If lo tikrivu is d’oraisah, and kol isha is part of lo tikrivu, then it is very possible it would be a davar she’bervah and yehareg v’al yaavor, although that would be a machlokes. Shach 157:9 goes through some of the shittos.
As far as shaas shmad, I wrote the wrong thing. I didn’t mean shaas shmad, I meant that their purpose is to make us to aveiros and it is in public, in which case the din is that it is always yehareg v’al yaavor. See YD 157:1 ??? ??? ???????, ?????? ???? ???? ??????, ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ??????.
The purpose of this rule, is specifically to force the frum to be oiver on this issur, since the secular think the issur is made because they think we think women are inferior. That is undebatable.
But, it doesn’t really matter whether it is yehareg v’al yaavor, since nobody is threatening to kill us if we don’t go to these things. They are just threatening to put us in jail or kick us out of the army. But, we have a perfectly good way of avoiding the entire thing, by pretending to learn or running away to America where there is freedom of religion even for the hated chareidim.January 4, 2012 6:17 am at 6:17 am #848406
PBA: The interesting part of the end of that is that the Mechaber (and Rambam) says the Oved Kochavim wants to be Ma’avir Al Das. Presumably this is because they couldn’t fathom/it would be incredibly abnormal for a Jew to force this, though the potential Diyuk is interesting (but wrong, I think). I would think that Ad’raba, Sha’as Hashmad might apply since this is a law forcing you to be Over. What makes this so complex is that they (I think) had Poskim Mattir it for them, so it’s hard to call it Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor for some but Muttar for others. Especially because if there is a Heter, then the army is no longer intending to be Ma’avir Al Das.
The Ervah part is interesting. As far as I know, no one says that seeing a non-Tznius woman is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. It’s not a Davar Hamevi Lidei Ervah. Especially by Kol and S’ar, since those seem to be lower than the rest in many Rishonim.January 4, 2012 6:22 am at 6:22 am #848407
Popa, your prustkeit shows from where you are coming. The Chief of Staff said that there is room in the Army for women to contribute according to their abilities. The extent and its ramifications for frum soldiers is a matter for the Army Chief Rabbi, who is the mara d’atra, in consultation with the General Staff to decide.The purpose is not to make soldiers do aveirot but for what is seen as the unity of the Army. Thus, at worst it is hana’at atzmo. Actually, considering how girls behaved at Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley and Beatles concerts (which no boy did at any concert of any female singer) there might be room for a takkana on kol ish as apparently Nature changed. However, we do not have the power to do so or to eliminate the prohibition of kol isha. Poskim, however, do have the power of heter in different situations – and this ower is preferable (Beitza 2b – and while you are dusting off your seforim look at the Tiferet Yisrael at the beginning of the masechta regarding the pronunciation of the name of the masechta).January 4, 2012 6:24 am at 6:24 am #848408
Listening to ladies sing is pikuach nefesh?!?!?!January 4, 2012 6:26 am at 6:26 am #848409
1. Indeed it would be interesting for it to be muttar for some, and yehareg v’al yaavor for others. But, not so weird. After all, if they were forcing us to eat meat that was shechted with ????? ?????? ????, that would presumably be the case.
2. I don’t think it matters that they got a psak, since the decision was clearly political, and the psak was an excuse. I don’t think it changes their intentions.
3. Regarding ervah, the case they get it from is in the gemara where the guy was lovesick and the doctors said if he doesn’t look at the woman undressed then he will die, and the gemara says he should die. The question in the poskim is whether we really apply that gemara to other situations.January 4, 2012 6:39 am at 6:39 am #848411
PBA: That Gemara has 2 Leshonos. According to one Lashon it was clearly a Geder and a Chumra. According to the other there is what to discuss. I think the general assumption is Lekula in such a case, but I’ve never really looked into that in such huge detail.
Whether or not they got a P’sak might not change their intentions, but it might change how we regard them. If they have a legitimate P’sak Lekula, even if they want to be Ma’avir Al Das, presumably the Chillul Hashem aspect goes away, and that is what makes it Yeihareh V’al Ya’avor anyway according to the Rambam (it is not entirely clear to what extent the other Rishonim disagree with that position).
But you are very right. Regardless of if this is actually Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor, since the Israeli army wouldn’t actually kill you for not attending then someone who holds it’s actually Kol Ishah would not be able to attend. (Unless you want to call it a Safek Pikuach Nefesh because in theory the army could call that treason, which is a death penalty offense. I would assume that that is a far too Rachok of a Safek to even qualify. Even if the Israeli army could make that case, there is no way on Earth they actually would.)January 4, 2012 6:50 am at 6:50 am #848412sam4321Participant
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9146&st=&pgnum=156&hilite= , The Shach holds dvar sh’bervah d’Rabbanan is included if I read correctly Shach(10) V’katvhu. is the halachas the same by a yisrael,the halachas are geared towards nochrim?January 4, 2012 11:46 am at 11:46 am #848413
mdd, I’ll pardon your ignorance. It’s not kabbalah. It’s a famous vort of the Netziv, and it’s also referenced in the Yerushalmi maseches Sanhedrin. And as far as Toichecha goes, the mekor is in vayikro. Lo tisneh es achicho bilvovcho. Hocheach tochiach es amisecho, velo sisah olov cheit.
“Do not hate your brother in your heart, you shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and incur no sin because of this person.” two things in that posuk which take YOU out of the parsha of giving toichecha. First, there is the fact that to validly give toichecha, you can’t hate your brother in your heart. Judging only from what you have written in this forum, you don’t display that qualification. Secondly, the posuk says “es amisecho”. You want to give toichecho to people who are not your friends or neighbors, who you see as out to destroy your way of life, who in your view are annihilators of Torah. In what twisted world do you think you can consider those people “amisecho”?
Really, MDD, basic stuff.January 4, 2012 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #848414moi aussiMember
Popa, you’re entitled to your opinion, but if you use foul language to make your point, you will not be heard. I’m surprised the mods allowed it. You must learn to convey your message in a respectable manner, without resorting to personal attacks. Avi sounds like a Talmid Chacham, you owe him respect.January 4, 2012 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #848415
1. There is a similar machloket regarding shaking hands with a woman. Both Rav Shimon Schwaband his brother asked shailot (of different rabbanim). One was told yehareg vealyaavor and the other was told muttar. Regarding an individual this is fine and common but the Army obviously needs a unified pesak. The address is obviously the IDF Chief Rabbi, who is the mara d’atra (so paskened Rav Yaakov Ariel).
2.From the Chief of Staff’s tone (I heard him on the radio) and the fact that he created a stir by making a joke about it I gathered that he does not want this but needs to do it because of pressure from feminists and singers who for some reason feel personally offended. Thus, even if it is assur it is hanaat atzmo.
Regarding giving a heter, many times issurei derabbana are allowed mishum aiva. Here it is even easier as there are heterim which already exist. One is the microphone. The Seridei Esh mentions zemirot and shirei Eretz Yisrael, which might apply to the type of songs sung at military ceremonies (and the purpose of these ceremonies is morale, which is very important to combat soldiers). Another, put forth by Rav Shlomo Aviner, who is not known as a meikal on tzniut, is that any hanaah the soldier receives is against his will and therefore not halachically hanaah. There is a similar sheetta which says that any melacha one is compelled to do on Shabbat is a melacha she’ain tzericha lagufa and therefore according to Rabbi Shimon (according to whom most Rishonim pasken) it is an issur derabbanan. The Chatam Sofer, the Minchat Yitzchak and others use this to allow giving medical treatment to a Goy on Shabbat mishum aiva (Rav Gustman added that the doctor would lose his license and thus be unable to treat Jews). Rav Yosef Carmel of Eretz Chemda posited that walking out would be embarassing the singer in public. Rav Metzger, who himself does not walk out when women sing at ceremonies, said that he takes his mind off her by saying Tehillim to himself (although he added that this is a difficult heter to give to a bachur).
3. The Gemara is talking about an eshet ish. The doctors started with asking to allow him to be with her. This is clearly not allowed even for pikuach nefesh. Later they tried to bargain and went down to a conversation and just seeing her in the altogether. Obviously, this was just an excuse.January 4, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #848416
The Gemara is talking about an eshet ish.
Yes, and a nidda is also an ervah. Maybe if the women singers would agree to go the mikva first….
The doctors started with asking to allow him to be with her. This is clearly not allowed even for pikuach nefesh. Later they tried to bargain and went down to a conversation and just seeing her in the altogether. Obviously, this was just an excuse.
Fascinating. I wonder why all the rishonim who learn the issur lav of lo tikrivu didn’t think of that answer.
More than that, I wonder why you didn’t even bother to look up the links and citations that have already been mentioned in the last five posts, and seen that the rishonim get the lav from that gemara.
Did you ever consider being a rishon? It must be mad fun to make up wacky pshatim in gemaras, without any need to follow those old sticklers like the rambam and rif.January 4, 2012 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #848417
Popa, you’re entitled to your opinion, but if you use foul language to make your point, you will not be heard. I’m surprised the mods allowed it. You must learn to convey your message in a respectable manner, without resorting to personal attacks.
I’ll be the judge of when I’ll be heard or not.
Avi sounds like a Talmid Chacham, you owe him respect.
Sounds like is the operative term. Yes, someone sounds like a talmid chochom when they suggest that ??? ???? ?? ???? should allow soldiers to break any ???, and then cites two rambams which he purports support him.
That is why you need a real talmid chochom to show everyone that he is just making stuff up.
You know, I went out on a limb here. Calling someone an am haaretz on the internet is very dangerous, because you have no idea who they are. If someone had called yitayningwut an am haaretz on the “speechless” thread last night, they would have had it stuffed back in their face really hard with cold hard facts. You need to be very certain before you do it.
One last shot before I go for the day:
There is a similar sheetta which says that any melacha one is compelled to do on Shabbat is a melacha she’ain tzericha lagufa and therefore according to Rabbi Shimon (according to whom most Rishonim pasken) it is an issur derabbanan. The Chatam Sofer, the Minchat Yitzchak and others use this to allow giving medical treatment to a Goy on Shabbat mishum aiva (Rav Gustman added that the doctor would lose his license and thus be unable to treat Jews).
lol. Only shabbos has the notion of meleches machsheves. You can’t apply any mleches machsheves principle outside of hilchos shabbos.January 4, 2012 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #848418
AviK: The Sridei Eish says Shirei Eretz Yisrael? I thought his Lashon has “Shiros V’Sishbachos LaHKBH”, but I could be wrong. Either way, whatever the army women were singing I don’t think qualifies. I don’t think their intentions were to sing L’sheim Shamayim. And I won’t even begin to discuss your brutalization of the Sugya of healing a Nochri on Shabbos, or the fact that the comparison is entirely inapplicable..
Rav Aviner makes a very good point about EE Efshar V’lo Kam’chaven.January 4, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #848419
“I’ll be the judge of when I’ll be heard or not”
I hear you. Then again, did I have your permission to do so?January 4, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #848420cantgetitMember
Popa and mdd: well said.January 5, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #848421writersoulParticipant
Avi K: I watched a video of a Beatles concert and it made me despair of women (and I’m one of them) 🙂
Popa: Not being especially learned in this sort of thing, I’ll stay out of the argument, but frankly, the way you said what you said was definitely not menschlich. Even “hochayach tochiyach,” if that applies here, requires more consideration of the feelings of others.January 5, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #848422
Not that Popa needs my support here, but I’ll give it. A poster tried inventing Halachah and Popa very properly called him out on it in a way that he would not be able to improperly influence anyone else.January 5, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #848423
1. The moderator will decide whether or not you are heard on this site.
2. We were talking about yehareg uval yaavor not whether it is prohibited. The rabbis realized that this was a put-on.
3. The point is that an action done under compulsion is not considered an action. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim 10:1 that a Ben Noach is patur when anus because he is not chayav in kiddush Hashem. This is the chiyuv of yehareg uval yaavor (therefore a Jew who does so because of onus is also patur as he is mevatel an asseh).
Sam, I heard that they also sang shirei Eretz Yisrael – which are also praises of Hashem. There are also heterim for other types of songs where there is no intent to get hanaah from her voice as brought down by Rabbi B;leich. Bli neder when I have some more time I will see if the sources are on the Internet.January 5, 2012 4:26 am at 4:26 am #848424
Yichusdic, really basic things. The requirement of ” lo sis alav chet” apllies only during first time or times when you rebuke the person. If he continues to do the aveira intentionally, you are allowed to publicaly yell at him etc. Look in the ” Chofets Chaim”. If it is a wise think to do, it depends. Stop, however, inventing all these modernishe reasons as to why one is not allowed to forcefully moche or be a kanoi.January 5, 2012 5:23 am at 5:23 am #848425
Wow, MDD, first time I’ve had a direct quote from the Torah called a modernishe zach. There’s a first time for everything I guess.
Even assuming your absurd notion that the Chofetz Chaim would have countenanced the abuse of an 8 year old frum girl, or the throwing of stones (on shabbos) at mechallelei shabbos who are avadeh tinokos shenishbu, or the screaming at a woman seated at the front of a bus, you outdo yourself with your kano-us. Don’t forget, there was more than one person or group called kanoim in our history. There was the kanous of Pinchas, which it would be total azus metzach to assume you are on the madreiga to emulate, and then there is the kanous of the zman churban bayis shaini, exemplifying the outcome of the sinas chinom that destroyed the beis hamikdosh. You may want to be a kanoi like Pinchas, but you sound like a kanoi from the time of the churban.
And BTW, you know that the person you are yelling at is sinning intentionally, how? Does this also apply to children, who have been yelled at as you paskened is mutar, if not always “wise” for months in Beit Shemesh? Are they even of age to be a meizid in anything? And is their parents “sin” appropriate to be moche because they don’t have the same daas Torah as you do? It keeps coming back to sectarianism. We don’t need to worry about the seculars or the reform or the reconstructionists, because before they can do their damage to klal Yisroel, you will have written off (and yelled at) the 75% or more of the orthodox world who holds by a different shitah than you.
You know, you talk about me inventing modernishe reasons. I’m talking about learning a 2000 year old lesson that you are willfully ignoring. Nothing modern about maaseh ovos simon libonim. Smart people, smart Jews, learn from their mistakes, or those of their forebears. You should try it some time.
And no, MDD, you aren’t going to browbeat me into silence like has been done to others on many threads when they seem too unlike you and your confederates in their thoughts and words. And I say this because I love you and every other Jew and it pains me to read words so full of anger and such readiness to pounce on another Jew’s perceived shortcomings. It is time to remember what Hillel hazoken said about Veohavto loreacho komocha. All the rest is commentary. Now go and learn.January 5, 2012 5:31 am at 5:31 am #848426DoswinMember
yichusdik, don’t put words in mdd’s mouth. He didn’t say the posek is modernish. He said the idea you can’t be moche is.January 5, 2012 5:33 am at 5:33 am #848427
I think, it was assur to spit at that girl. Much of the rest of what you said are falsifications of the Torah. Stop dreing up the Torah! The ta’ana of sinas chinam apllies when it is indeed chinam — without a valid al pi Torah reason. That was the problem then, it is still a problem now. However, when someone does real aveiros, it is a different story.January 5, 2012 5:37 am at 5:37 am #848428
Yichusdic, for your info, the Gemora in Brochos 20A praises an Amora for ripping off a pritsusdic hat off a woman’s head!January 5, 2012 5:43 am at 5:43 am #848429
Doswin, he said my words were, and my words were a literal reading of the posuk. And, by the way, I think there is a time and a place to be moche. If someone is a responsible, adult part of your kehilo, and has given reshus to be rebuked – implicitly or explicitly, then I can see it having its place. But to a kid? to someone with a different Rov and a different daas Torah? To someone who doesn’t even understand the concept of daas Torah? That is wrong, misguided, and pointless, and encourages those few seculars who have as little understanding of the concept of sinas chinom as do those few chareidim who have been in the news.January 5, 2012 5:51 am at 5:51 am #848430
The rebuked party does not need to give reshus. If it is o.k. al pi Halocha, one may go ahead.January 5, 2012 6:05 am at 6:05 am #848431
And I say this because I love you and every other Jew and it pains me to read words so full of anger and such readiness to pounce on another Jew’s perceived shortcomings.
I just want to let you know that your words seem to come across as anger-filled as well.January 5, 2012 6:11 am at 6:11 am #848432
Funny thing about the gemoro, MDD, you can look it up. Rav Ada Bar Achava ripped a red headdress off of a non Jewish woman, thinking she was a Jew. He was fined 400 zuzim for doing so. It doesn’t praise him or condemn him. I looked on the daf and the meforshim say nothing more about the matter.
But if you are such a chosid of Rav Ada Bar ahava, perhaps you will recall his argument with Rav Huna about if it is permissible to cut the peyos of a koton. He said yes it was, Rav Huna said no. When he found out Rav Huna’s wife cut their children’s peyos, he felt that was against Rav huna’s shitoh, and said something to the effect that she should be careful or she might end up burying her sons, and Tosefos says he didn’t mean to curse them, but they died young. Are you on his madreiga? even such a tzadik as Rav Ada said something he regretted. But really you should look at the gemoro in taanis, where he describes why he was zoche to live long. If you meet his criteria, my (red) hat is off to you and you can emulate him. If not, stick to Hillel. go and learn.January 5, 2012 6:21 am at 6:21 am #848433ravshalomParticipant
Regarding Ee efshar v’lo kam’chaven:
I would venture a guess that the rabbanim consulted on this matter actually advised the IDF to compel everyone to attend in order to create the situation of ee efshar, which is in effect making the issue less problematic. How’s that for a conspiracy theory?January 5, 2012 6:23 am at 6:23 am #848434
It doesn’t praise him or condemn him. I looked on the daf and the meforshim say nothing more about the matter.
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with Rav Ada bar Ahva?January 5, 2012 6:30 am at 6:30 am #848435
I am doing neither. It isn’t my place to do so, and the gemoro makes clear his tzidkus in other places. What I am saying is that to take him as an example of how to behave, one has to take on the conduct that made him praiseworthy. That is listed in gemoro taanis daf chof omud alef. As I said, if someone is on that madrega, they can do as he did.January 5, 2012 6:31 am at 6:31 am #848436
Sorry, that’s daf chof omud beis.January 5, 2012 6:51 am at 6:51 am #848437
Getting back to the topic of kol isha (As I have already posted, no one today knows how to give rebuke. The Chofetz Chaim said that ????? is related to ?????. You have to prove it to him – in a way that he can accept) , there are several reasons to be meikal:
1. They do not have a choice in order to do there military service, which is a great mitzva. Merely being in a place where there is immodesty is muttar for any need (Baba Batra 57b). Rav Aviner posited that an enjoyment one is forced to get is not called an enjoyment.
2. According to many poskim issurei d’rabbanan are allowed ???? ???? (see Responsa Chatam Sofer Vol 2 Yoreh Deah 131 and Mishna Berura 330,8). This, of course, is assuming that kol isha is rabbinic – and there are such sheetot.
3. There are heterim for songs which are not intended for enjoyment (Sedeh Chemed Klalaim Maarechet HaKuf 42 in the name of Divrei Chefetz) and Seridei Esh 2:14. This would certainly apply to the types of songs sung at military ceremonies.
4. There is heter for several people singing together based on ??? ???? ?? ????? (Chatan Sofer Orech Chaim Shaar HaTaharot Yadayim 14).
5. Embarassing the singer in public where the soldier walks out (Rav Carmel).
Thus a rav can certainly allow soldiers to go to such ceremonies. The one to decide is the mara d’atra, the IDF Chief Rabbi (as ruled Rav Yaakov Ariel).
For a general discussion of the issue of kol isha see Contemporary Halachic Problems col. 2 pg. 147.January 5, 2012 7:33 am at 7:33 am #848438EY MomParticipant
Whether or not Rav Elyashiv shlita penned that statement, the issue – and there is an issue – is NOT one of everyone having to be in kollel.
The issue is whether or not it is a good idea to send an 18 year-old bochur into the Nachal Chareidi or not.
It is true that the Nachal Chareidi is overwhelmingly not chareidi. And the recent specter of soldiers being penalized for walking out rather than hearing kol isha – these were top soldiers in officer training, and they were dismissed – gives tremendous weight to what is and has always been one of the main obstacles to sending boys to the army: That there is an anti-religious agenda there.
If Rav Elyashiv did write this letter, please note that there was no reference to married men making a living, to any of the myriad vocational training programs that are available to chareidi men and women, or even to married men going to the army, as many who already have 3 or 4 children do.January 5, 2012 10:54 am at 10:54 am #848439
to take him as an example of how to behave, one has to take on the conduct that made him praiseworthy
Source?January 5, 2012 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #848440
AviK: Stop it. Your distortion of sources is just bad now.
1. That is not what the Gemara in Bava Basra says. The Gemara says you have to do anything possible to avoid a non-Tznius situation, but if in the end of the day you’re really stuck, then it’s an Ones so it’s okay (you could have quoted the Gemara properly and it would have served your point, but you chose to misquote it).
2. Evah doesn’t apply to by Jews, it’s an outbreak of Pikuach Nefesh, and we are Mattir D’Oraisas in some cases because of that fact. You bringing up those sources is both incorrect and irrelevant.
3. I don’t think that’s what the Sridei Eish says but I don’t know that T’shuvah by heart, so I could be wrong. What does “singing for enjoyment” even mean?
4. That’s the Sridei Eish’s Chiddush and yet he still doesn’t Pasken by it without the second Tzad Lehakel that it be Devarim Shebikdusha, over which the Yetzter Harah has no control. Presumably he didn’t hold of this by itself based on the Gemara in Rosh Hashana (I believe 27a).
5. The singers know that Frum people won’t want to listen to women sing. It’s not embarrassing them if they put you into an impossible situation, with full knowledge of what will happen.
You should have said Ee Efshar V’lo Kam’chaven and been done with it. That would have been a valid Halachic argument and quite possibly is correct as well. Your attempted distortion of sources does nothing for either you or your argument.January 5, 2012 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #848441
Really? you need a source for common sense? Would you rather say that one can be confident enough in his own tzidkus to give toichecha like Rava Ada while behaving like Resh Lakish before his tshuva?January 5, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #848442
There’s a lot of room between Rav Ada and Reish Lokish before his teshuva.
You’ve relegated the mitzvah of hocheiach tochiach to Amoraim only through your “common sense”. Yes, you need a source for that.January 5, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #848443DoswinMember
yichusdik: Comparing other posters to a rasha doesn’t make your opinion any truer. Giving tochacha is a halachic *obligation*.
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