January 5, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #848444
1. As I posted Rav Aviner madethe statement about an enjoyment one is compelled to receive. I quoted the Gemara as an example. Othewise Rabbi Hyya bar Abba would have said that the man must cancel his plans and not just praise him for closing his eyes.
2.Who says that aiva doies not apply to Jews? As for pikuach nefesh, there is a mitzva to go into the Army to defend the country and its people as set forth in Rambam Hilchot Melachim.
3. The Seridei Esh speaks about zemirot, song in praise of Hashem, etc. The Sede Chemed in the name of theDivrei Chefetz talks about kinot. Rabbi Bleich discusses this in his article.
4. It could be that sevral heterim are needed and I listed several.
5. That is not the way secular people think. Professional singers especially consider this an expresssion of their whole beings.How would you feel if someone would get up and leave when you started to speak knowing that it is because he disagrees with you? In any case, it is not my statement but that of Rav Yosef Carmel of EWretz Chemda. If you want to argue with him, send him an e-mail at http://eretzhemdah.org/contactus.asp?PageId=10.
6. See this statement by Rav Metzger at this site (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/113890/Rabbi-Metzger-Comments-On-Resignation-Of-Air-Force-Rav-Ravaad.html):
Chief rabbis over the generations took part in state ceremonies, which to my sorrow included kol isha. This includes Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. They did not walk out in protest. They found their own personal solution, perhaps to concentrate on learning or something else. When I was a soldier for example I did walk out but I was not chief rabbi then.
If Rav Ovadia did not feel required to leave what can we say?January 5, 2012 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #848446DoswinMember
apushatayid: This letter from Rav Elyashev (translated in the OP) saying frum Jews shouldn’t go to the army (including Nachal Chareidi) or to college, was published on the front page of the Yated (signed).January 5, 2012 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #848448
Yichusdic, look again! The Gemora does certainly praise him! The Gemora asks why the earlier generations had their prayers answered more than the later ones. The Gemora answers that the Earlier ones stood up for Kovod Shamaim, but the Later ones did not. It brings the ma’ase to prove the point about the earlier generations.January 5, 2012 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #848449
????????? ?????? is ???? ??? ?????January 6, 2012 1:32 am at 1:32 am #848450
MDD, The gemoro illustrates his readiness to stand up for what he perceived as kovod shomayim. It does not say that his action, his error in knocking the headdress off of a non Jew that cost 400 zuz in fines, was in and of itself praiseworthy. Rav Ada’s praiseworthiness is found in his actions listed in Gemoro Taanis.January 6, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #848451
Yichusdic, this is outrageous! The Gemora does so praise him! Btw, he thought she was a Bas Yisroel.January 6, 2012 3:53 am at 3:53 am #848452
I’ve reviewed the daf three times in the last 24 hours. I know that he mistook her for a Jewish woman. The gemoro brings his action as an example of someone prepared to sacrifice for what he saw as kovod shomayim. this act was brought as an example. You are extrapolating praise. It is not in the pshat in the gemoro. The idea of being prepared to sacrifice is considered a lost positive trait that earlier generations had, yes. But this act had neither praise nor condemnation. And there is much, much more about Rav Ada’s praiseworthiness from other mekoros, like the one in taanis i mentioned, or the story of how Rav Huna brought him with to a wine warehouse he thought was on the verge of collapse simply because his virtue would keep the building from falling. You are inferring more than is in the text, and the meforshim on the daf are silent.January 6, 2012 4:43 am at 4:43 am #848453
The Meforshim do not need to add to the openly stated. Be mode al ha’emes even though it does not fit with your wrong hashkofos!January 6, 2012 4:58 am at 4:58 am #848454
Hello: Seeing or hearing an Ervah is not Abizraihu of Giluy Arayos. I don’t have a source for that at the moment, so if you can bring one proving that it is I will concede that point.January 6, 2012 7:13 am at 7:13 am #848455
Avi K -“1. Which gedolim? You remind me of the pashkavillim wroiters who sign “harabbanim shelita”. Which rav? The erev rav? Harav im kulam?”
ALL the Gedolim esp. the Chofetz Chaim and all the others you mentioned! BTW, did you ever hear of the Satmar Rebbe and the Brisker Rov?
“2. Learn Tanach – unless your “gedolim” have banned it as Zionistic. David had an army. Learn Gemara. Just as Yoav needed David, David needed Yoav (Sanhedrin 49a)”
There is nothing wrong with a country having an army, but there is something wrong with Jews(?) making a country based on Kefira!
“3. I doubt very much that Rav Shach stood up just because he liked his grandson. He stood up davka when he was in uniform – he stood up for the uniform.”
Naarish -I just told you a story that an army guy told me -he had absolutely no more respect for him than any other Jew who came to him!
“4. Is it also assur to have dealings with the Medina in order to take or just to give?”
Just to give, but actually the Brisker Rov & probably the Satmar Rebbe held it’s also Ossur to take!
“5. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (I presume thaty ou have heard of him) used to go to Har Herzl to visit kivrei tzaddikim.”
Maybe he went to see Rav Kook’s Kever -I’m sure it wasn’t to see Teddy Hertzl!
“He was very machmir that one should violate Shabbat to make things easier for combat soldiers in wartime.”
So what? Are you trying to tell me if men have to listen to women sing it’s equal to doing things because of Sakana Nefoshos?
The only Sakana Nefoshos there is -the women will scream, kick and shoot at anyone who doesn’t want to listen to them!January 6, 2012 7:36 am at 7:36 am #848456
AinOhdMilvado -“Regardless of your points, (which ARE true) the fact remains that in todays’s world, (without mashiach being here) without the IDF, every Jew, Chareidi and frei, would be exterminated.
Thus the very lives of the anti-Zionist chareidim are dependent on the existence of a Jewish army. If they don’t want to join the IDF, they have that choice, but a little hakaras hatov for being able to wake up in the morning (to protest the ‘medina’) is still an obligation”
Total absolute lies -Read my post to Emmuna 613!January 6, 2012 7:58 am at 7:58 am #848457
AinOhdMilvado -“In my humble opinion, if someone is really and truly so anti-Zionist, they should not use anything from the ‘terrible’ Tziyonim”.”
I agree, but not every Godol said it was Ossur!
“When I say ANYTHING, I mean the majority of the country’s infrastructure, i.e. highways, electical system, water system, phone system, etc.”
And they do this all for free? There is no such a thing as an electric bill or a phone bill, etc. in EY?
“Most certainly they should NOT make use of the I.D.F. which they so malign and detest. What do I mean by “make use of the I.D.F.”? Simply, they should not BE in Eretz Yisrael. Why not? For the simple reason, that since Mashiach has not yet arrived, the fact is that without the I.D.F. EVERY JEW in Eretz Yisrael from the most secular to the most ‘ultra-chareidi’ would be slaughtered by the yishmaelim! Thus, just to be ALIVE one is making use of the Tziyoni I.D.F.”
An absolute lie. Hashem protects us, not the Tziyonim!
Did you ever learn Torah -like Chumash?
It was our Army that destroyed the Egyptians, not Hashem.
It was Avrohom Aveinu’s army that destroyed the kings he was fighting against, not Hashem. The last two lines are your version.
My version everbody else knows!
“Of course, this is just my personal opinion, – I would not want to get ‘ha’na’ah’ from someone I detest. If one now lives in (PRE-Mashiach)Eretz Yisrael, they ARE, de-facto, getting benefit from the I.D.F.”
Actually it’s the Freye who are still alive because of all the Zecusim of the Frumme, esp. the guys whom learn Torah all day!
So the Freye have to have Hakoras Hatov to the Bnei Torah!
Where did you learn how to be so Krum???January 6, 2012 8:19 am at 8:19 am #848458
Feif Un -“Health: the story you said with R’ Shach goes against what you said earlier. You claimed the soldiers do nothing, and it’s only the people learning who protect Israel. R’ Shach said there are two fronts, one on the battlefield, and one in the beis medrash. Yes, both are needed. The soldiers are just as necessary as the guys learning, and we need to appreciate both.”
Excuse me -there is no contradiction!
I’ll give you a Moshul (Parable -for those who don’t understand Hebrew) -There was once a guy who needed desperately to leave town because over there people were looking to kill him Ch’vs -so he hired a wagon with a driver. The wagon got him safely to a different place. He was so happy -he kissed & hugged the driver besides paying him & giving him a big tip.
Acc. to your train of thought – he should have given the money to the wagon itself and the horse.
Similarly here – the army is just the wagon & the horse.
The driver is Hashem. What makes Hashem (the driver) tell the horse & wagon where to go? It’s the Zechusim of Klal Yisroel. They have these many Zechusim because of the Bnei Torah learning Torah. So the only ones that get Hakoras Hatov are the Bnei Torah!
Unless you tell me when you travel somewhere, eg. by bus, you put the money in the windshield and hug the bus and don’t pay the driver!January 6, 2012 8:42 am at 8:42 am #848459
Avi K -“Popa, anything which is needed for the morale of the troops is part of pikuach nefesh.”
And if you believe this one – I have a bridge to sell you!
This is whole reason they even have women in the army -they say it’s good for morale. It’s not for their army strength. That’s why the Gedolim Paskened it’s Yahrog V’al Yavor.
Avi -Did you ever learn that things like Giloy Arayos are not allowed to be Oiver even if it’s “Pikuach Nefesh”?
So something like singing isn’t a stand alone, it’s to promote Kurva between the two genders -to lead to more Chumradik Aveiros, because that’s the whole reason they are even taken as soldiers!January 6, 2012 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #848460
“be modeh al haemes”
In the last 2 days, mdd, you have repeatedly castigated me, my hashkafah, my direct reading of the pshat in both the Torah and the Gemara (without offering an alternative direct pshat, instead depending on inferences that support your position), you called a vort of the Netziv modernishe kabala, and you dismissed the entire possibility that someone who doesn’t share your hashkofo could possibly have an alternative point of view that has some justification.
You injected the description of Rav Adas actions as being motivated by the issue of modesty, but such a word or description is not there on the Daf, and as you conceded the meforshim don’t discuss the issue. I looked a fourth time this morning.
The emes is that your arguments are unconvincing. That’s OK. You are entitled to infer or interpret as suits you. As a side note, Rav Eliyahu Abergil, who heads the beis din in Beer Sheva, found sources (I’ve only seen a quote of his work, not the sources themselves) that describe a karbolta, the head covering worn by the woman in the Gemoro, as something associated with idol worship. Not an issue of tznius. In that case, IF she was thought to be a Jewish woman in public displaying the accoutrements of and thus encouraging avodoh zoroh, I understand better why he ripped it off of her head, and I can see it taken as the kind of example that needed action. Again, a Rav Ada or a Pinchas Hakohen is on a madrega to do such a thing.
I guess the words elu voelu divrei elokim chaim have no meaning to you. Well, they do to me. My g(x8) uncle R. Shmuel Shmelke of Nikolsburg encountered many angry Yidden who disparaged his hashkofo, and tried to run him out of town and his position through many of the same overbearing tactics. Didn’t work. And it won’t work.January 6, 2012 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #848461
Your ideas would not be at all HEALTHy for the Jews of Eretz Yisrael, frum or frei.
Yes, my tzadik, of course HaSh-m can protect us, but that is when we have the zechusim for the neesim g’luyim that would be required to survive without an IDF. Perhaps you think the frum HAVE those zechusim but the frei don’t (so THEY need the IDF?)
Perhaps you remember the little incident of the Chevron massacre, where dozens of FRUM Jews were slaughtered by the yishmaeli savages BEFORE there was a Tziyoni state, slaughtered as they sat learning in the beis medrash!!!
Yes tzadik, HaSh-m protects us, BUT to count on that protection alone, in today’s Middle East, would be to be somaiych al ha’nais, which of course we are NOT supposed to do. Therefore, as I said above, in today’s pre-mashiach world, EVERY Jew in Eretz Yisrael needs the IDF if he/she wants to be able to wake up in the morning.
By the way, the fact that people are paying water and electricity bills does not change the fact they are USING the infrastructure of the ZIONIST state. If I hated the state, I would NOT want to be USING them EVEN if (or especially if) I was paying them.
And by the way, where did YOU learn to be calling people you don’t know at all “krum”?!? I suppose anyone who does not agree with “R’ Health” is “krum”.
Asarah b’Teves and so much sinas chinam – very sad.January 6, 2012 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #848462zahavasdadParticipant
@ Health Avi K -“Popa, anything which is needed for the morale of the troops is part of pikuach nefesh.”
Avi -Did you ever learn that things like Giloy Arayos are not allowed to be Oiver even if it’s “Pikuach Nefesh”?
The Torah allowed Soliders to marry a non-jewish female captive (Ivri Cananan ? I forgot the exact Hebrew term)January 6, 2012 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #848463
Health, I liked your mashul, but surely the wagon driver needed the horse and wagon. He couldn’t have carried the fugitive to safety on his own back. Likewise, the zechusim of the lomdei Torah alone cannot defend Klal Yisroel. Klal Yisroel needs an army that the zechusim of the lomdei Torah can be mechazeik to be victorious.January 6, 2012 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #848464yungerman1Participant
Sam2- “Hello: Seeing or hearing an Ervah is not Abizraihu of Giluy Arayos”. I hope I am understanding you correctly, but I am pretty sure I saw someone that said ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? and seeing an ervah would be assur because of ?? ????.January 6, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #848465
Yichusdic, there is no point in responding to you anymore. Anybody willing to see can see — the pshat in the Gemora. One can also learn the “Chofets Chaim” about these dinnim. Do not relegate tochecha or machoh to Amoroim or before only!January 6, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #848466
Your correction of Health’s mashul is exactly correct.
A wagon driver who can get the person across WITHOUT a wagon and horse equates to a nais niglah (i.e. HaSh-m acting without our doing anything b’derech ha’teva, without our hishtadlus – i.e. without the IDF), which is not supposed to be expected.
Of course the wagon and horse ALONE (equating to the IDF ALONE in this mashul) won’t work either (without the driver.)
SO… the bottom line is, that we have to do our hishtadlus (i.e. have a strong IDF) and THEN, with the help of HKB”H we CAN be zocheh to a nais nistar.January 6, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #848467
Yungerman: That would be a very strange application of “Ein Hamikra Yotzei Midei P’shuto”. None of the Rishonim say that. Would they also say that “Lo S’galeh K’naf Aviv” means there’s an Issur D’Oraisa of seeing one’s father naked. That is very, very strange. It’s not what Ein Hamikra Yotzei Midei P’shuto means.January 6, 2012 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #848468
MDD: Anyone can see any P’shat they want in that Gemara. It is one line and almost none of the Rishonim comment on it. There is no definitive clear meaning of what a “Karbalta” (sorry if I got the word wrong) is.January 6, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #848470fuzzmanMember
i saw this israel video on youtube, its beautifully done, everybody shud watch it
its called REFOCUS: together we stand, divided we fall – israel videoJanuary 7, 2012 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #848471
sam2: Igros Moshe EH 4:60 famously writes that even talking to a girl on the phone is an Issur d’Oraisa of Lo Sikrvu and Yeiharei v’al Ya’avor. See also Gemara Sanhedrin 75a, Rema YD 157:1, Chavos Yair 182, Sidrei Tahara on YD 195:15 and Gra thereJanuary 8, 2012 12:43 am at 12:43 am #848472
Hello: As I have said several times before, I just do not understnd that T’shuvah. That aside, Rav Moshe talking about the Issur of Lo Sikr’vu doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not seeing something not Tznius is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.January 8, 2012 4:21 am at 4:21 am #848473
Well, Mdd, you are welcome to stop your diatribe any time. I am sure that there are people on a madreiga to make a macho’o. I’m not one of them. Neither, I suspect, are you, nor are the vast majority of us. But know this. The kind of “response” and discussion you are looking for, and the only one acceptable to you it seems, is for someone to accept your point of view as the only legitimate one. If that kind of thinking prevailed in our mesorah, we would have no mishna or gemoro, because no one would ever disagree. We would have no Rambam and Raavad. We would have no R’ Yaakov Margoliyos and Rav Yehudah Mintz. No R yaakov Emden and R Yonasan Eybeshutz. That is not how our tradition works.January 8, 2012 4:48 am at 4:48 am #848474DoswinMember
yichusdik: mdd is correct in the pashut pshat in the Gemorah. The only reason the Gemorah brought the story, was to demonstrate it was a praiseworthy action. Also, you keep repeating that one must be on some madreiga to make a macho’o against a wrongdoing. There is no such thing. What gives you the idea one must be a certain madreiga (source)?
Also, you say there are differences of opinion that are acceptable, in defending your right to your opinion on this issue. So even putting aside the issue of your being wrong on the issue, by your own standards you must at least acknowledge mdd’s and others right to their position of the correctness of making a macho’o and giving tochacha. So when the macho’o is made, you by your own standards stated in your last comment must accept their right to make that macho’o,January 8, 2012 6:43 am at 6:43 am #848475
Sam: what problems do you have with this IGM, I’m happy to answer your questions.
If you saw the Rema I cited you would see that he writes that any time there is a Lav (and some say even an d’Rabannan) there is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor due to AbizraihuJanuary 8, 2012 9:55 am at 9:55 am #848476
hello, Rav Moshe is talking about a romantic phone call in the context of a teshuva about dating.
Zahava, the term is “eshet yaffet toar” (beautiful woman).
Health, this is not gilui arayot. According to some opinions it is even muttar lechatchila as I have posted several times. Therefore, it is totally appropriate for a rav to be meikal if he feels that the situation warrants. In nay case, as I have posted, the fault for the fact that Israel is not yet a completely (there are also many good points – as Rav Kook said light and darkness are blended together) tora state lies squarely on the shoulders of those frum Jews who come here but do not become citizens and vote as wel as those who choose not to come because of their love of Galut (= chet hameraglim).January 8, 2012 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #848477
Hello: I am familiar with that Rama. My point is that the Lav of Histak’lus doesn’t necessarily fall under “Giluy Arayos”. I would need to see a Makor somewhere that it does.January 8, 2012 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #848478
AinOhdMilvado -“Perhaps you remember the little incident of the Chevron massacre, where dozens of FRUM Jews were slaughtered by the yishmaeli savages BEFORE there was a Tziyoni state, slaughtered as they sat learning in the beis medrash!!!”
That incident is a direct result of the Tzionim starting their campaign to take over Palestine. Did such an incident ever occur under the Turks? Whatever you’re smoking -can I have some?
“Yes tzadik, HaSh-m protects us, BUT to count on that protection alone, in today’s Middle East, would be to be somaiych al ha’nais, which of course we are NOT supposed to do. Therefore, as I said above, in today’s pre-mashiach world, EVERY Jew in Eretz Yisrael needs the IDF if he/she wants to be able to wake up in the morning.”
Yea, they need the IDF the same way the wagon driver needs the wagon & the horse, the same way the bus driver needs the bus, but do you have Hakoras Hatov to the driver or to the horse?!?!
“By the way, the fact that people are paying water and electricity bills does not change the fact they are USING the infrastructure of the ZIONIST state. If I hated the state, I would NOT want to be USING them EVEN if (or especially if) I was paying them.”
Now you are saying that the Tzionim are worse than Goyim who worship the stars. It could be, but no Godol has yet said that they are. If you don’t know -paying for a service is called business and you are allowed to do business even with Goyim – even if the Goyim created the infrastructure.
“And by the way, where did YOU learn to be calling people you don’t know at all “krum”?!? I suppose anyone who does not agree with “R’ Health” is “krum”.”
This has nothing to do with me! Anybody who defends the Medina of Kefira is KRUM!!!
“Asarah b’Teves and so much sinas chinam – very sad.”
I agree; but where is this Sinah eminating from?????January 8, 2012 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #848479
zahavasdad -“The Torah allowed Soliders to marry a non-jewish female captive “
So what? Did the Torah all of a sudden Matter Jewish Niddos?
Speak to what is happenning now, today in the IDF!
“(Ivri Cananan ? I forgot the exact Hebrew term)”
Look it up. You do own a Chumash (Hebrew Bible), don’t you???January 8, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #848480
Raphael Kaufman -“Health, I liked your mashul, but surely the wagon driver needed the horse and wagon. He couldn’t have carried the fugitive to safety on his own back. Likewise, the zechusim of the lomdei Torah alone cannot defend Klal Yisroel. Klal Yisroel needs an army that the zechusim of the lomdei Torah can be mechazeik to be victorious.”
So what? I just addressed this point to AinOhdMilvado!January 8, 2012 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #848481
Avi K -“Health, this is not gilui arayot. According to some opinions it is even muttar lechatchila as I have posted several times. Therefore, it is totally appropriate for a rav to be meikal if he feels that the situation warrants.”
For s/o like the Chief Rabbi who only has to endure this sometime, I’d agree. The soldiers that have to hear this all the time will start becoming friendly to the singers. This is why it is Ossur for Soldiers & it is Yahrog V’al Yavor, because one thing will lead to another. I’m sorry that you are so warped up with your Tzionis (Zionism), that you you can’t see the obvious!
“but do not become citizens and vote as wel as those who choose not to come because of their love of Galut (= chet hameraglim).”
It is Ossur to become citizens & to vote acc. to many Gedolim!
Sometimes people don’t move there because it’s easier to be a Frum Jew here in the US! You can move there and people like you can brainwash you and your kids to become Krum!January 8, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #848482
Avi K: “hello, Rav Moshe is talking about a romantic phone call in the context of a teshuva about dating.”
First of all, I was responding to a challenge if there is a connection between Lo Sikravu and Yeihareig v’Al Ya’avor. Reb Mosha and the Rema clearly connect them.
Secondly, the Teshuva relates to “friendly” phone calls and not “romantic” ones.
Thirdly, there is NO context of dating.January 8, 2012 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #848483
sam: once Reb Moshe proved that even speaking, which is not clearly brought as an Issur at all could be Lo Sikravu, Kal v’Chomer Histaklus and Kol b’Isha Erva which are clearly Assur. Anything that leads to Kirva and Ta’ava is included in Lo SikravuJanuary 9, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #848484
Hello, he uses the term “leshem chibba” – for the purpose of affection.January 9, 2012 6:29 am at 6:29 am #848485
Avi: Nope. Look inside. The question related to a platonic friendship, Reb Moshe replied that if you want to be friends with a girl more than with a boy there must be an underlying, even subconcious, physical affection. However, there was clearly no question of outright “romantic” conversation he wanted to talk to her the way he claimed he would with a boy.January 9, 2012 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #848486
1. An individual soldier will not hear the same singer “all of the time”. He will not even hear singers all of the time. Only here and there when his unit is sent to the ceremony. There is about as much chance of him deloping a friendship with her as there is of someone developing a friendship with one of the Republican contenders by going to a debate.
2. Only rabbanim associated with microscopic groups like the Eida HaChareidit and NK (if they are considered a Jewish group and not a breakaway, heretical sect) assur voting. All of the rest hold that it is a mitzva. Some even support specific parties.
3. How is it easier to be frum in America? Everything is according to the Goyish calendar. To get off for Shabbat or Yom Tov you have to put in a special request. You can’t even write the Jewish date on a check. There are no mitzvot taluyot baAretz. Ramban, in fact, states that there are only mitzvot in Tumaland in order to practice for Eretz Yisrael.
4. Look inside yourself. Rav Moshe states explicitly that the boy wants to go out with a girl even though neither is old enough to think about shidduchim. “Reut” means something more than mere friendship. Rav Moshe also uses the term “dibbur leshem chibba” (speaking for the purpose of affection) and uses the word “chibba” in several other places.
5.”If you want to be friends with a girl more than with a boy there must be an underlying, even subconcious, physical affection”. You are contradicting yourself. First you say it was paltonic then you say it was the opposite. In any case, the boy did not say that he wanted the girls friendship more than a boy’s. Rav Moshe said that if all he wanted was friendship he would seek out other boys.January 9, 2012 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #848487
Health, you seem to have missed an important nekudah of the mashul. You are correct that the bal agala is the main actor, but the horse and wagon are necessary and should also be shown “appreciation” in the form of care and maintenance. Horeses especially are living creatures with enough intelligence to understand extra care, a kind word and a pat on the neck. Soldiers deserve at least as much appreciation as one would give a faithful horse.
Another Item. Without disputing the issue, I take exception to the use of the term “yeharog v’al ya’avor” applied to issurim simply as an exclamation point. Yeharog v’al ya’avor is reserved for the most severe issurim, I.E. the Big Three (or any issurim b’shas hashmad). To apply the term to other issurim which, while serious, don’t really rise to the level of ultimate sacrifice does not so much reinforce the severity of the infraction as it deminishes the value of of that sacrifice. I am ready to lay down my life rather than allow myself to be forced to cross myself, or kill a fellow Jew (such cases actually happened in the Shoah), or commit incest. Should I really be ready to do the same to avoid hearing a woman sing, or use the internet, etc.?
P.S. Shoah is easier to type that holocaust.January 9, 2012 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #848488ToiParticipant
the blatant and seemingly deliberate blindness of several posters here, as well as their ability to try and manipulate texts to mean what they want is flooring.January 9, 2012 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #848489apushatayidParticipant
It has been noted that other gedolim have sat through these “performances”. People should follow their Rav, not signs on a wall, the yated or INN.January 9, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #848490
Whether or not there are heteirim allowing listening to kol ishah in the case in question is beside the point. The issue is why the IDF cannot make a simple accomodation to those who feel that it violates religious practice. When I was in the service, one of our battaion officers was killed. Being that he was Catholic, the Battalion Chaplain held a Funeral Mass. All members of the battallion were expected to attend. I told my BC (Battery Commander) that I could not attend the Mass as I was Jewish (which, of course, he knew already) and it would violate my religion. I was excused, no problem. In fact, the Army went lifnim meshuras hadin to accomodate by occasionaly bizarre requirements. Of course, that was the U.S. Army. Why can’t the IDF be at least as accomodating.January 9, 2012 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #848491
“If you don’t know -paying for a service is called business and you are allowed to do business even with Goyim – even if the Goyim created the infrastructure.”
I agree one can do business with goyim, but YOU seem to feel that Tziyonim are WORSE than goyim, that they are the enemies of Torah Jews. If you feel they are SO detestable, and your numerous comments indicate that you DO, you should NOT do business with them any more than you would do business with skinheads or klansmen (who are obviously also worse than stam goyim). Therefore, you should not put yourself in a position (by being in Eretz Yisrael) of having to use the services of the Tziyonim whether you pay for it or not. That goes for EVERYTHING, from the control tower Tziyonim at the airport that enable your plane to land, to the roads you use to get places, to all the other items I mentioned above, not the least of which is the IDF which allows you to stay alive with your throat un-slit. (Certainly you don’t think YOU have greater zechusim for divine protection than the yeshiva students in Chevron in 1929!?!)
You wrote: “I agree; but where is this Sinah eminating from?????”
Look in the mirror.January 9, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #848492
Avi: Are you addressing me or Health? You seem more confused than usual.January 9, 2012 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #848493apushatayidParticipant
RK. I suppose a Rav will take into account all your questions. He might even take into consideration all the poskei coffee room.January 9, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #848494
Raphael, I think this was the reason for the differentiation between ceremonies and entertainment. There is also an issue of always following the mara d’atra – in this case the IDF Chief Rabbi. In the Army this is especially important being that, as is well known, for eevry two Jews there are three opinions.There have already been clashes between a rosh yeshivas’ pesakim and a chaplains’ pesakim so it could be that Rav Peretz is asserting his authority.Probably though when things cool down there will be unofficial, quiet exceptions.January 9, 2012 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #848495
Hello: I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I have meticulously studied every Makor R’ Moshe quotes there. I still do not understand how he came to his conclusion and therefore will not address anything related to that T’shuvah. I can’t disagree with it; he’s Rav Moshe and I’m not. But I can’t address it either.January 9, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #848496
Apushatayid, What questions? The only question I asked was why can’t the IDF accomodate people who don’t want to attend the “entertainment” which does not appear to be a subject for piskei rabbanim. My comment concerning yeharog v’al ya’avor wasn’t a question, it was an opinion. you or anyone else is at liberty to disagree.
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