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I can try, but honestly, I don’t anticipate seeing the person I heard it from any time in the near future. If I do, I’ll bl”n see if the opportunity comes up to ask him.
Which post are people referring to re: l”h?
DY -“There was absolutely no implication in my post about butter or cream.”
You missed my point! I was showing perhaps why R’ Moshe came up with this Pesak of Nish Ahin Nisht Aherr. Since it’s not as Chomer as Taaroovos – it’s only a Bal Nefesh should be Machmir!
Health, he said ??? ??? ????? on milk.
DY -“Health, He said ??? ??? ????? on milk”
You still missed my point! I was showing perhaps why R’ Moshe came up with this Pesak of Nish Ahin Nisht Aherr on milk. Since it’s not as Chomer as Taaroovos – it’s only a Bal Nefesh should be Machmir!
I’m not sure I get you. Are you perhaps unaware of the fact that the reason we’re more meikil by certain dairy products than by milk itself is because it’s not easy to produce them from milk of a b’heimah t’meiah?
DY -“i’m not sure I get you. Are you perhaps unaware of the fact that the reason we’re more meikil by certain dairy products than by milk itself is because it’s not easy to produce them from milk of a b’heimah t’meiah?”
That could be true, but the gov. oversight applies to cream & butter too. The fact is R’ Moshe held Cholov Hacopanies is Mutter. And nowadays you might have to be Somaich on his Heter even for cream & butter: From Dubai news: …indroduce ice creams and milk powder from camel milk to the mass market.
If can my own story that probably has no basis in fact but is a good story non the less
I have heard that someone went over to Reb Dovid Feinstein and said ” I heard that Reb Moshe drank Cholov Stam and threw up” and Reb Dovid replied “Both stories are true, Reb Moshe drank Cholov Stam and threw up. Not at the same time though.”
Health, I don’t know about cream, but butter has needed R’ Moshe’s heter ever since Breakstone’s starting blending milk in.
This is a rediculous thread. A don’t pasken from this kind of story. Reminds of the story where Rav Moshe picked up one carton of Chalav Yisroel, put it down, and picked up and used a carton of a different brand of CY. The observer assumed there was a kashrus issue so he asked Rav Moshe why he put down the first container. Because it was empty, Rav Moshe responded
(For posterity) See this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/games-involving-lying
(since renamed “Lying about games involving cholov stam”)
Jewish thinker
I provided a source thats better and just as believable than any your going to get.
At what point are you going to get the hint that there may not be a source?
I found the following story online. As such this the “mekor”
The story occured Tuesday afternoon February 28 1978 or 21 Adar I 5738. He had justy finished giving a shiur on Atzutz Nakuv, when he asked for a coffee. ONe of the younger bachurim jumped at the oppurtunity and ran off to prepare it. Shortly after having the coffee the Rosh Yeshiva felt unwell and vomited. This was very unusual and created a big tumul. At first soem suspected the milk as it had been sitting out all day, but others drank the milk and were fine. This was really starnge. It was then that the mistake was realized. This young bachur and never prepared the Rosh Yeshiva’s coffee before and was understandibly nervous at the task at hand. He didnt double check the milk and accidently used a private bottle of instead don the Yeshiva’s cholov Yisroel milk.
Ubiquitin, I actually have a source, but I don’t have permission to post names, so I’m uncomfortable doing so.
It’s third hand, so I can’t swear to the veracity, but I think it’s true.
“From Dubai news”
So, now we are makpid on chalav yishmael?
apushatayid -“So, now we are makpid on chalav yishmael?”
Not funny! and You missed the point!
Who missed the point?
I got the point. I’m guessing you didnt.
mesorah 123 -“He didnt double check the milk and accidently used a private bottle of instead don the Yeshiva’s cholov Yisroel milk.”
This is the problem with trying to prove something from a Maaseh, instead of the Psak that he wrote. Maybe he vomited because it was s/o elses’ bottle of Cholov, instead of the Yeshivas'(stealing)!
Of maybe he was sick because of a virus?
RebYidd23 -“Of maybe he was sick because of a virus?”
It could be anything. Obviously, some guys have an agenda & they can’t just say they hold R’ Moshe was Wrong!
A great Rav told me that there is a ????? in ????? ??? to a Yeshiva in the 1950s. Cholov Yisroel was very expensive, and to save money, the Yeshiva wanted to serve the bochruim cholov stam. Rav Moshe paskened that they should server the bochurim only Cholov Yisroel, because being ????? on Cholov Yisroel is a sign of ???? ????, and it is a Yeshiva’s job to teach the bochurim ???? ????. I don’t know where the ????? is, but it can be found in ????? ???.
That would be this one:
NaarYisroel -“sign of ???? ????, and it is a Yeshiva’s job to teach the bochurim ???? ????.”
It’s only a “sign” , not the Halacha!
What Mesora123 stated is totaly untrue. The fact is Maran Reb Moshe z”l himself never ate chalav Stam ever. When he first arrived in America, with chalav Yisroel not being pre-packaged available, his cousin, Rav Hertzel Kantrowitz z”l, would go to a farm every 3 months, watch the milking and bring to R’ Moshe a container of chalav yisroel. This was the only that he would drink. For hid family and yeshiva was a different story. However, for himself, R’ Moshe would consistantly go for years for 3 months at a time without tasting milchigs. (Not that easy). Until after the war, with the influx of chasidim among the survivors, who made chalav Yisroel readily available.
I have no idea if R Moshe ever at cholov stam, but as others stated, his whole family did (my dad remembers sharing a Hershey bar with his grandson).
My cousin asked my grandfather, a talmid of R Moshe’s and a good friend of R Reuven’s, and he said that the story sounded like shtus to him.
Jewish Thinker, do you keep asking this in order to prove that there is no source, or because you believe that there is a source out there somewhere and you want to find it? It does seem like there is no readily available credible source, but you won’t be able to prove it. After all, in a world of white sheep, one cannot definitively prove that only white sheep exist, but the sight of only one black sheep can disprove that.
My story above, I heard from my father hk”m (a close talmid of R’ Moshe z”l and mentioned in a Dibros) who heard it from his father and his uncle (first-cousins of R’ Moshe.) That uncle was the one who brought R’ Moshe his cholov Yisroel approximately once in 3 months.
The point is that despite his heter (which clearly states “b’shaas hadechak”) for his family, Yeshiva and klall Yisroel, he himself was moser nefesh not to be to’aim milchigs for his first 15 years in America (besides for the few days he had from his cousin) until cholov Yisroel farms opened here after 1945.
Was Mehadrin the first post-war Cholov Yisroel mass food producer? (They started in 1949.)
Why are a bunch of grobbe baal habatim giving their shitta? Rav Moshe himself writes “Baal nefesh yachmir al atsmo” so regardless if he threw up or not it doesn’t make it mutar lechatchila.
Joe, I think that’s true. Of course in 1949 I wasn’t paying much attention (I was only 6) but in the early sixties I worked for a guy who wholesaled milk and dairy products for J&J, Mehadrin and Kahal. I had occasion to be in the Kahal dairy on Flatlands Ave. Those cows never saw a pasture.
From Wikipedia: The first chalav Yisrael dairy farm on the East Coast of the United States, and possibly in the entire United States, was started by Isaac Balsam in 1903, and remained in business until 1955.
It might have been a small operation, though.
That was pretty rude, DC MUTO.
Also, my Mesorah is that “Ba’al Nefesh Yachmir” means Muttar Lechatchilah. And that attempting to be Machmir is Yuhara. R’ Moshe was a Ba’al Nefesh. I’m not.
R’ Moshe says l’hedya that it’s not yuhara to be machmir.
I believe that in at least one of the teshuvos he just says raui l’hachmir without mentioning baal nefesh.
Certainly, in that famous letter to R’ Weinfeld, he says it’s not l’chatchilah.
So your mesorah (or how you’re applying it here) is wrong.
madianartshop
Accordning to R’ Nota Greenblat R’ Moshe ate chalav stam when in Memphis
Why is it easy for people to belive a Gadol did something Machmir and learn from that, but they alwatys make excuses when they are makil on something and either claim it was a mistake or it didnt happen
DY: My Mesorah is on when the M”B uses the phrase.
So it’s how you’re applying it that’s wrong.
The fine for a company adding some small amt of an emulsifier or a mix of other milks is minor. Rav Moshe was a true American citizen and belived in the USA food admin. and could not belive someone would go behind their backs. Who says that if Rav Moshe know the small fine thats involved would he have been Ok’ed it.
PS whats is done with the millions of gallons of hog milk. (never saw them for sale in shop rite. Some farms in N.C. raise 62,000 of
them. Also are the plants Pasteurizing (hot) cows milk are being used for other types of milk ?. Do people who rely on R’moshe know that once you leave the USA his hetur is null.
I’ve been waiting a while now for this thread to curl up and disappear on its own, but it’s not happening. Every time I pass by and notice the title, I cringe. Why are a bunch of strangers on the internet discussing a Gadol of this stature?
If we want to say that we’re all here lishma, trying to learn from his hanhagos, then we’re all being dishonest, agreed? If it’s a chalav Yisrael vs chalav not Yisrael thread we’re looking for, there are others out there where we can be entertained. If we’re looking for real guidance, this isn’t the place.
So maybe the Mods would like to put this to rest in the spirit of these sad days? And may we all be zoche to see this great Tzaddik soon with our own eyes.
Not agreed.
This may belong in the “changing your mind” thread, but I’ll say it here because of relevance to your post.
I have often learned new things and new perspectives from the posts of the wonderful people in the CR, and that includes many comments in this thread.
I am personally very interested to learn from the Psakim and Hanhagos of Rav Moshe zt”l, and I think this is an excellent forum for that.
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