October 13, 2009 12:18 am at 12:18 am #664354bein_hasdorimParticipant
bygirl31: If you offered the mods 50% shadchanus gelt they might reconsider.
On a serious note, there are many jewish dating sites out there,
not just for more modern crowds. There are many ehrliche yidden who use them.
I personally don’t go for that,) but I heard It works for many people.October 13, 2009 1:06 am at 1:06 am #664355cholentkugelkishkeMember
The bottom line is – YOU can Resolve the Shidduch Crisis! Yes, you! If everyone takes it upon themselves to take a few minutes a day to try to suggest a shidduch – it will help tremendously. Never underestimate your own shadchan skills. Most shidduchim are made by relatives & friends. Make this your kabbala for the new year. You can do it as a z’chus, as it is a huge z’chus!!October 13, 2009 1:26 am at 1:26 am #664356sunflowerMember
ckk, man are hungry? ure sn gives me teh sniffs of erev shabbos!October 13, 2009 1:44 am at 1:44 am #664357shaindelMember
Ya, CKK said exactly what I was trying to say, YOU can make real shidduchim chances are you know your siblings,cousins,friends and neighbors better than a shadchan! Your suggestions probably will be on TARGET and it doesn’t hurt to try!! All we need is everyone out there to start getting involved the crisis is because shadchanim are overwhelmed, overworked and underpaid… they get tons of people and can’t keep up with all the people calling them at all hours of the day and expecting them to set them up!! they try their best but it’s not humanly possible to redt shidduchim day and night when you have a LIFE TOO… we need more of them as well and not enough people are getting involved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!October 13, 2009 5:14 am at 5:14 am #664358
AZ: the least you can do is thank me for that warm welcome i gave ya at the start of this thread!
Joseph: i’m always right!October 13, 2009 5:21 am at 5:21 am #664359
…except when you’re wrong!October 13, 2009 5:53 am at 5:53 am #664360
Joseph: which is never!October 13, 2009 6:56 am at 6:56 am #664361
… except now.October 13, 2009 7:01 am at 7:01 am #664362
Joseph: Good morning!October 13, 2009 10:04 am at 10:04 am #664363haifagirlParticipant
Joseph: I’m all for reinstating polygamy. I’ve been trying to get people to listen to me for years.October 13, 2009 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #664364
haifa: Explain your reasoning.October 13, 2009 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #664365
Goody 613: Please explain how arranged marriages will alleviate the problem of their being more girls in the dating pool than boys. As the Letter form over 70 Roshei Yeshiva states, the problem is a result of having more girls in the available pool than boys, which is directly is caused by AGE GAP.
Ronrsr: See what was just written. Having more than 10% of girls never getting married is at the very least a crisis. If you have time do some research on HS and their alumni. The data of alumni still single at 30 and above should make anyone shriek. (The boys have less than 2% single after 5 yrs of dating).
Mybat: This problem is not limited to the yeshvish community in the slightest. One difference in the Yeshiva community is that they typically larger families and thus age gap creates a higher discrepancy of numbers.October 13, 2009 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #664366squeakParticipant
I’m taking bets. $50 says this thread gets closed before AZ gets to repeat himself more than 10 times. Any takers?October 13, 2009 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #664367
AZ:?October 13, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #664368
AZ, thanks for clarifying the use of the word agunah. For most of us, we have the visceral reaction of a word being crudely misused, knowing women who have been put through gehinom by recalcitrant husbands. I had no idea that that was the classic use.
WADR though, I would not want that word to be used in everyday talk. Not just because we have to help the classic agunos but we don’t want to demoralize our girls any further, we need to build them up.
Please note I am NOT ch”v criticizing the gadol hador, just saying that for the rest of us, let’s not use this word, or use it lightly.
And I still wonder about my 22 y.o. daughter. If there is a 22 y.o. young man out there for her he will have to be exceptionally accomplished for his age.October 13, 2009 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #664369haifagirlParticipant
Joseph: There are obvious benefits to polygamy.
First, there’s the obvious that we will be able to get by with fewer boys instead of needing equal numbers.
Second, I’m not sure men are designed to be monogamous. This will give them some variety within the bounds of halacha.
Third, and my favorite reason, “You want dinner? Go bother your other wife.”October 13, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #664370
artchill, you wrote, “In Chicago the age 27+ ?is less than 2%”
Is this including women who have moved to other cities for shidduch purposes, and are still single?October 13, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #664371
Maybe the problem is that the girls are too accomplished for their age and any guy they go out with will not be smarter, more succesful, more religious, etc. So how is a guy going to marry a girl that is “better” than him and how is a girl going to marry a guy who is “less” than her?
Just a thought…..October 13, 2009 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #664374
haifa: With me, I’d be having two dinners.
tzippi: Your usage of the word agunah, is also a misuse and certainly not its classical use (i.e. the wife of a missing husband.) In fact the correct term you would be using is mesoreves, although in many cases today it is in fact a moredes.October 13, 2009 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #664375
I think mybat is touching on a major source of the “shidduch crisis”. Namely, girls going for a higher education and neglecting shidduchim in the interim. They are both delaying their marriage and over-educating themselves and effectively (in the real shidduch world) making themselves less attractive as such. A female PhD. will have eliminated a major portion of Bnei Torah from considering her, G-d forbid leaving her with the shrayim.October 13, 2009 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #664376mepalMember
And she’s only going for a degree to support her learning husband…
But the truth is, its much easier obtaining a degree as a single girl rather than doing it married. When you’re single, you have way less obligations, thus more time and energy to put into getting your degree.October 13, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #664377
Is it possible that, for the most part, our single people are just going through the motions of shidduchin, but for whatever reason, have been influenced by the goyish world or other factors, and do not want to marry? And a good portion of those who do not want to marry, but marry anyway due to pressures; are getting divorced?October 13, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #664378
Is it possible that, for the most part, our single people are just going through the motions of shidduchin, but for whatever reason, have been influenced by the goyish world or other factors, and do not want to marry?
I think you are on to something here with some people.
And a good portion of those who do not want to marry, but marry anyway due to pressures; are getting divorced?
I don’t know that these are any more divorce oriented than others… but then again, how much do I know about this issue anyways?October 13, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #664379
Well, someone told me that they tried to introduce a girl that is 30 to a religious guy, but she didn’t want to go out because he’s not a kollel boy…..I was like what???October 13, 2009 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #664380
To Joseph: I’m not sure I understand. What is the proper term for a woman whose husband is putting her through gehenom and withholding a get? Sounds like the man’s the one who is being mored (rebelling?!?!). Please understand when you use such terms that with my BY and sem background I don’t have grounding in gemara so unless you carefully explain I might conclude that you are misusing the terminology.
And a woman with a PhD – G-d forbid? So much for Rebbetzin Grunfeld.October 13, 2009 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #664381
Once the out-of-town girls move to other cities to further their education in order to “support their talmid chacham” they assume an aura of superiority and feel they are Hashem’s gift to mankind. Many boys aren’t as special, and certainly wouldn’t want to take away Hashem’s gift to mankind from the rest of society!! So, they take a pass on her.
Cherrybim: Most of the divorces/disaster stories we are seeing in the past three years are directly linked to girls and their families settling for the bottom-of-the-barrel families, out of fear of becoming a “statistic”. So, yes those who married from the pressure are getting divorced at higher rates.
I’m writing this very vaguely, but try to understand. More boys went through very difficult circumstances and have therefore spent time vacilating in frumkeit, and many have lost the interest in marriage and staying married. The loss of so many boys from the potential pool is the “direct” cause of the shidduch “crisis”. Deny it all you want but it’s the sad reality of our times.October 13, 2009 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #664382mepalMember
More boys went through very difficult circumstances and have therefore spent time vacilating in frumkeit…
What makes you think its more boys than girls?October 13, 2009 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #664383
artchill, why do you assume that women who move out of town to further their education consider themselves superior to others? I know many women who’ve moved from smaller cities (such as Chicago, Cleveland, or cities with smaller Jewish communities) to the NTC area. Most of them moved for both educational/ job reasons & for shidduch purposes. The women I’ve met don’t have a superior attitude about this. Apparently your experiences are different.
I only mentioned the fact that many women move for shidduch purposes (especially if they are older than the average single), so your 2% data point may be artificially low (what is your source for this, by the way?)October 13, 2009 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #664384
In Ploniville (EDITED) graduating class of 2000 (27 yr olds) 14% still single. I actually just received the total number of graduates and the number of singles. I obviously can’t post the name of the school or the names of the singles. Try contacting some of the alumni and ask them to go their yearbooks……..
EDITEDOctober 13, 2009 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #664385
False. Funny you say that. I am actually quite friendly with them and from the data on girls schools alumni it seems to be higher. Would you please clarify when and who made the comment that 10% is an exaggeration. What they have said is that the community needs to be awakened out of their slumber and realize the tragedy – even if it means publicizing the numbers and thus scaring people……..
P.S. I am very happy you made $12 million in a business venture. You should have much hatzlacha further.October 13, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #664386
If we are going the ploniville route I’ll produce some more numbers. this is smalll sampling of schools I receive more data I will gladly share it (without disclosing names of schools and names of girls.)
’02 (25 yrs old)
22 out of 88 not married (25%)
‘O3 (24 yrs old)
39-104 not married (37.5%)
1999- 28 year olds
13 single out of 107= 12.2%
2000-27 year olds
6-83= 7.2% +(6 divorced with children)
2001- 26 year olds:
9 single out of 74=12.2%
2003-24 year olds:
totals 241-343 (6)=11.9%
35-260 (not counting 2000 unusual year w/ 6 divorces)) =13.5%
2000 (27 yrs old)
5-35 not married = 14.3 %
2001 (26 yrs old)
9-40= 22.5 %
2002 (25 yrs old)
2003 (24 yrs old)
(24-27) 151 graduates -38 single =25.1%October 13, 2009 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #664388
I have the greatest sympathy for people who wish to be married and can not marry, due to a shortage of the opposite sex.
But, this doesn’t sound like that problem. This sounds like a question of either 1) changing standards on the part of the young women (they wish to marry “white collar” workers); or 2) We have a generation where there are many more accomplished girls than the previous generation.
Will our making more shidduchim help the problem? If there si still a shortage of spouses that meet expectations, then making a shidduch will only take one boy out of the boy pool, and one girl out of the girl pool, still leaving us with the initial problem.
Is the problem, really, that we have honored the kollel boys too much, and the working boys too little? Have we passed this attitude on to our daughers? There is nothing ignoble or unholy about honest manual labor. After all, if your toilet is backed up,
who do you call? The rabbi, or the plumber?
A more realistic solution would be to match girls with higher expectations with charming and hardworking boys, so they can see that such a match may be for them.October 13, 2009 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #664389
The boys ARE getting married and they are marrying females :-).
It has almost NOTHING to do with dating expectations. The suggestion of more people getting involved in shidducim helps only minimuly. After all the boys are getting married without additional help. The working boys are also getting married….
What IS needed is more people getting involved in figuring out ways to even out the numbers (close the age gap) thus evening out the numbers. However in the YWCR it seems to be a lost cause – oh well…..October 13, 2009 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #664390rebetzinParticipant
AZ, I’m with you all the way. I just don’t post because I have nothing to add to what you say.
It bothers me immensely the way the people in the coffee room don’t take what you’re saying seriously and I have no explanation for it, since in real life, most people that I know do believe in the age gap problem.
What’s interesting is that the same people here who post in other contexts, “How dare we question the gedolim” and the like, are still mocking you after the letter with all the signatures.October 13, 2009 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #664391
Hey rebbetzin. I’m not mocking, just waiting for answers. And I also want to see a generation of happy marriages. The age gap is clearly the most dominant of all the issues – I won’t contradict the gedolim – but that still may leave a hefty percentage of other issues to be addressed also.October 13, 2009 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #664392
AZ, I do agree that the age gap is a significant issue. However, I have observed that among my classmates who married young (age 20 or younger), most of them married men several years older. My classmates who married when they were older–around age 24-27–married men who were only slightly older or younger than they were. One classmate married at age 27, to a man 5 years younger. Have you observed this phenomenon in your research?October 13, 2009 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #664393
in the olden days, didn’t they just bring in more boys from Poland?October 13, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #664394
People who deal with REAL problems caused by fallout of the AGE GAP “Crisis”, are far less sympathetic to the awareness raised by a young, idealistic spokesperson. Perhaps, when you meet the victims of the AGE GAP “Crisis” campaign, you’ll see that sowing fear or raising awareness (call it what you want) caused far more harm than good. I am an idealist too, which is why so many heartbroken people end up on my doorstep. The negative fallout of the NASI campaign will be felt for many years down the road.
I have the utmost respect for your idealism. There are many good causes in Queens and Long Island to get involved in, you could make a difference. Put your kochos into worthwhile causes.October 13, 2009 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #664395
everyone also wants a “cookie cut out” type of guy, whoever your frieds and siblings marry might not always work for you. Parents are also ashamed sometimes to let their children go out with someone who could be a very good match, but not someone they expect, because they want prestige.October 13, 2009 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #664396
what is NASI?October 13, 2009 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #664397
Artchill: I don’t know you and i presume you don’t know me but the day the Rabbonim who encourage closing the age gap change their mind is the the last day I will encourage that agenda. At the present time it seems like you feel you know better………. Please read the letter from over 70 Roshei Yeshiva carefully…
the close the age gap agenda has been in the public eye for a very short period of time. Interesting you should claim to know of “victims” unless a 19 yr old having a slightly harder time because some boys are starting to ask for slightly older girls is a victim…. EDITEDOctober 14, 2009 12:26 am at 12:26 am #664398
You are so gifted and talented.
I totally agree with you.
The shidduch crisis IS caused by the AGED GRAPE issue. Too many people are drunk and fall into the bottom of the barrel.October 14, 2009 12:43 am at 12:43 am #664399AZOI.ISParticipant
AZ: I am confident that after 120+, there is a very desirable place reserved especially for you in Gan Eden. You don’t give up, nor should you. I am sure Hashem is smiling down at you. May you and yours be blessed with Gezunt and Nachas Ruach in order to continue.
As someone who involves themselves in Shidduchim, my heart goes out for those older, among Achoseinu Bnos Yisroel, who with each passing year have less of a chance of finding a husband, while by and large the well known Shadchanim focus on the new crop.
May Hashem help us all help those in desperate need of Shidduchim.October 14, 2009 1:39 am at 1:39 am #664401
I don’t know if the age thing is the reason or not; my personal feeling is that it’s not.
And even if age is the prime factor; since we’re not going to change human nature, let’s not waste precious time and resources running up that road. Obviously, men and woman are not willing to settle and will continue searching for that non existent gold at the end of the rainbow, until it’s too late.
So why the age gap in the frum world now? Formalized Shidduchin.
Young frum people used to meet each other in informal settings and the age difference was minimal, or it didn’t make much difference since there was the hormonal factor.
And yes, many of today’s Rabbanim and Rebbitzens met this way too years ago; they would like to forget but I was there (Thirteenth Ave, on Friday night and Fourteenth Ave, Shabbos afternoon).
However, now we think that we can order what we want for shidduchin. Yes, that works if you have real yeshivish yichus or money; no age gap crisis there. But, for the “hamon am”: Get Real and don’t waste your time.
My advice: Marry any person who is a true Yiras Shamayim and that’s it! If you can do that, you’ve won and the rest is window dressing.October 14, 2009 4:56 am at 4:56 am #664402bein_hasdorimParticipant
shaindel: (said on page 2)
“the crisis is because shadchanim are overwhelmed, overworked and underpaid.”
whoa hold on a sec….What? UNDERPAID? which state are you from?
rather which country?(mods it’s rhetorical) Shadchanim are highly overpaid
& perhaps that is part of the crises! please let know of these underpaid
shadchanim, so me & my city, state, and country can save some big money.October 14, 2009 11:52 am at 11:52 am #664403AZOI.ISParticipant
Shaindel has a point, bec. outside of the handful of big name, highly successful, Shadchanim, and there certainly arent enough of them, others toil endless hours and get absolutely nothing for it, even when a relationship goes on for many dates, and then realize they can no longer invest the required time and effort.October 14, 2009 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #664404
” shadchanim are overwhelmed, overworked and underpaid,”
I might add totally under appreciated and frequently abused (verbally)/
It’s high time shadchanim started getting paid for their work even if it doesn’t end in a shidduch.
Suggestion: After three dates each side should give $150 and %50 per date for each further date. If they end up getting engaged a additional gift would be appropriate.
this all being said the boys still seem to be getting married relatively qucikly and thus this point is only very SLIGHTLY related to the shidduch crisis. After all someone is making the shidduchim….October 14, 2009 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #664405
AZ: “Suggestion: After three dates each side should give $150 and %50 per date for each further date. If they end up getting engaged a additional gift would be appropriate.”
How about: Nothing now, and $5,000-$10,000 after three years of marriage (held in Escrow). This way the shadchanim receive what they deserve and the candi-dates are seriously considered.October 14, 2009 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #664406
Yes AZ, that would definitely solve everything. Why don’t guys just go out with girls that they like?October 14, 2009 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #664407cholentkugelkishkeMember
bein_hasdorim – What? UNDERPAID? YES!!! Underpaid!!! Most shidduchim – even the ones that work – require so much work, that if you do the math – the shadchan is getting paid below minimum wage for his efforts. Forget about the ones that the shadchan spent hundreds of hours working on & didn’t work….. I’d like to ask you – which state are you from?
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