Rosh Hashana davening in BP

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  • #613646

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It occurs to me I will probably be in BP for rosh hashana.

    Are there any shuls there I could daven at? Which ones are good?

    I need:

    Room to move around

    Gemaras (Bavli)

    Good chazan who only does chazzanus, but never ever sings

    Good makri

    Good shofar man (because I didn’t grow up, and I can’t)

    I’ll bring my own kiddush (herring)

    #1099453

    Doesn’t exist.

    #1099454

    BasementDweller
    Participant

    Try Beth-El, Bnei Yehuda or similar as the average Chasidishe Shul will certainly sing.

    #1099455

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Can anyone rank the BP shuls according to which of the above characteristics they have. I may be willing to compromise on some (e.g. Bavli v yerushalmi)

    #1099456

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No singing? Why not?

    #1099457

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Popa why are you spending Yom Tov in Battery Park? oh oh you meant the other bp.

    #1099458

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: shira is for malochim. Tefilla is for people.

    #1099459

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “No singing? Why not?”

    Orchos Tzadikim Sha’ar Hachanifus:

    ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????

    Mishnah Berura 281:4:

    ???????: ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???

    #1099460

    BoysWork
    Participant

    opposite of me, I once went to a shul on rosh hashana where there was no singing. I hated it. I find the singing on rosh hashana and yom kippur to be an important part of the davening. to each his own.

    #1099461

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Goq, no, not a gas station.

    PAA, see the ?????, specifically ???? ????.

    Popa, remind me again, what did ??? ????? say by the ?? ????

    #1099462

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: Remind me again if the Torah says they davened or sang on yam suf? Remind me again what we do on Rosh Hashana?

    Recall that “oz yoshir”, after they were saved. And before they were saved, Moshe davened. Not yoshir.

    #1099463

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oh, so now you’re not limiting shirah to malachum, you’re limiting it to certain situations.

    #1099464

    a mamin
    Participant

    popa! I thought you were a mooney??? No on would pass up davening there on Rosh Hashana if they belong??

    #1099465

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Shtuyot. They were like malochim. Ma sh’reasah shifcha al hayam…

    Ask better.

    #1099466

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    From Boruch Sheomar and Yishtabach?

    #1099467

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    lo kashya.

    We say that shir is appropriate to Hashem. We don’t say that is what we are going to do!

    #1099468

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That dochek may work for Yishtabach, but not for Baruch Sheomar.

    #1099469

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1099470

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “PAA, see the ?????, specifically ???? ????”

    I assume you mean ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????.

    1)That’s in the part that the Chazzan skips (or pretends to say quietly).

    2)The prayer is clearly saying to accept his prayer AS IF he had a pleasant voice which means that he doesn’t.

    3)Even disregarding points one and two, it still doesn’t address the problem mentioned by the Orchos Tzadikim or the problem mentioned by the Mishnah Berura. So perhaps in theory there should be singing (assuming you don’t accept points one and two), but in practice my original post still stands.

    #1099471

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Well, if we don’t value a pleasant voice, why is there an “as if”? Or do you also think the rest of his list of qualifications aren’t maalos for a baal tefillah?

    Also, the O”T is against being haughty about a nice voice, not against having one. Anyhow, a nice voice is good for nusach even without songs, so although I answered you l’shitascha, the raya doesn’t begin.

    The M”B is against using niggun in a way which ruins the davening, not against its proper use. In fact the M”B is m’duyak that nigun is used for davening.

    As the Briskers say, it doesn’t say in Shulchan Aruch that a baal tefillah has to have a nice voice, because if he doesn’t, then he’s not a baal tefillah.

    Agav, when popa says he wants “chazzanus”, I assume he really means nusach. Maybe I’m wrong.

    #1099472

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Well, if we don’t value a pleasant voice, why is there an “as if”? Or do you also think the rest of his list of qualifications aren’t maalos for a baal tefillah?”

    I didn’t say we don’t value it. My point is that if the chazzan says it then it means he doesn’t have a pleasant voice and if he doesn’t say it, you can’t bring a raya from it (unless he skips just those words).

    “Also, the O”T is against being haughty about a nice voice, not against having one.”

    Popa is assuming that if the chazzan has a nice voice he will be haughty about it (and incidentally he will also be lying).

    “The M”B is against using niggun in a way which ruins the davening, not against its proper use.”

    Again, Popa is assuming that it’s guaranteed that a chazzan who songs will fall prey to the Mishna Berurah’s concerns. Which is actually not such a far-fetched assumption.

    “As the Briskers say, it doesn’t say in Shulchan Aruch that a baal tefillah has to have a nice voice, because if he doesn’t, then he’s not a baal tefillah.”

    And as the anti-briskers say: That is an invalid argument because you can make up any halacha and then say that the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t say it because it’s pashut. E.g. the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t say that a baal tefillah has to where techeiles, because if he doesn’t then he is not a baal tefillah.

    Disclaimer: I didn’t notice my pun until after I wrote it.

    #1099473

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Which is better than I, who still hasn’t noticed it.

    And there you go again, mixing up proof and being right.

    Also, I didn’t realize you were explaining popa’s reason, I thought you were agreeing.

    #1099474

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Which is better than I, who still hasn’t noticed it.”

    I said “the chazzan will fall prey…” prey/pray. I hope I explained it well.

    “And there you go again, mixing up proof and being right.”

    I wasn’t mixing nothing up. It seemed that you were trying to prove (perhaps somewhat in jest) that a chazzan needs to have a nice voice. I responded that you used an invalid prove. You are correct that you can be right even if it is an invalid proof, but then for the same price you could have just said that a chazzan needs to have a good voice because you are right.

    “Also, I didn’t realize you were explaining popa’s reason, I thought you were agreeing.”

    I was explaining Popa’s reasoning. (I know his reasoning because I was present when he forcibly removed the chazzan in the middle of kedusha. He unfortunately hadn’t realized that the chazzan was [one of] his father in law. Let’s just say that it didn’t end well which is why Popa is looking for a different shul.)

    I personally happen to like when the chazzan sings (as long as I know the song). I don’t like it when the chazzan chazzanishly drags out the entire davening (but a little bit is ok).

    #1099475

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I remind you all that the first time I was blocked from YWN by Mod 80 it was for stoning a chazzan with esrogim.

    #1099476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I wasn’t mixing nothing up.

    Agreed!

    Actually, I was asserting something, not proving it. But it should be self evident.

    #1099477

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1099478

    I read once that singing in Tefillah has its roots dating back to the Bais Hamikdash. It’s a zecher, an echo of the song the Leveim used to sing daily in service for HaShem in the Bais Hamikdash. That’s why on Shabbosim etc. when the ‘olam’ generally has more time, we express ourselves in song to our Creator at parts of the Tefillah.

    #1099479

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Are you looking for a Shul that doesn’t say the Eilu Va’Eilu Shtickel? Do you say Kedusha, btw?

    #1099480

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t hold of Eilu Va’Eilu.

    #1099481

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Find out where DaMoshe is davening, and then let us know how it was.

    #1099482

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Find out where DaMoshe is davening, and then let us know how it was.”

    DaMoshe has clearly indicated that he will be singing. Popa has clearly indicated that he doesn’t want any singing. Not a good shidduch. Unless you want DaMoshe to have esrogim thrown at him.

    #1099483

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa can go out and eat herring while DaMoshe sings. He can pretend there’s a YCT guy saying a drasha.

    #1099484

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bump?

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