Rosh Hashana davening in BP

Try Beth-El, Bnei Yehuda or similar as the average Chasidishe Shul will certainly sing.

No singing? Why not?

opposite of me, I once went to a shul on rosh hashana where there was no singing. I hated it. I find the singing on rosh hashana and yom kippur to be an important part of the davening. to each his own.

popa! I thought you were a mooney??? No on would pass up davening there on Rosh Hashana if they belong??

From Boruch Sheomar and Yishtabach?

That dochek may work for Yishtabach, but not for Baruch Sheomar.

“PAA, see the ?????, specifically ???? ????”

I assume you mean ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????.

1)That’s in the part that the Chazzan skips (or pretends to say quietly).

2)The prayer is clearly saying to accept his prayer AS IF he had a pleasant voice which means that he doesn’t.

3)Even disregarding points one and two, it still doesn’t address the problem mentioned by the Orchos Tzadikim or the problem mentioned by the Mishnah Berura. So perhaps in theory there should be singing (assuming you don’t accept points one and two), but in practice my original post still stands.

“Well, if we don’t value a pleasant voice, why is there an “as if”? Or do you also think the rest of his list of qualifications aren’t maalos for a baal tefillah?”

I didn’t say we don’t value it. My point is that if the chazzan says it then it means he doesn’t have a pleasant voice and if he doesn’t say it, you can’t bring a raya from it (unless he skips just those words).

“Also, the O”T is against being haughty about a nice voice, not against having one.”

Popa is assuming that if the chazzan has a nice voice he will be haughty about it (and incidentally he will also be lying).

“The M”B is against using niggun in a way which ruins the davening, not against its proper use.”

Again, Popa is assuming that it’s guaranteed that a chazzan who songs will fall prey to the Mishna Berurah’s concerns. Which is actually not such a far-fetched assumption.

“As the Briskers say, it doesn’t say in Shulchan Aruch that a baal tefillah has to have a nice voice, because if he doesn’t, then he’s not a baal tefillah.”

And as the anti-briskers say: That is an invalid argument because you can make up any halacha and then say that the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t say it because it’s pashut. E.g. the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t say that a baal tefillah has to where techeiles, because if he doesn’t then he is not a baal tefillah.

Disclaimer: I didn’t notice my pun until after I wrote it.

“Which is better than I, who still hasn’t noticed it.”

I said “the chazzan will fall prey…” prey/pray. I hope I explained it well.

“And there you go again, mixing up proof and being right.”

I wasn’t mixing nothing up. It seemed that you were trying to prove (perhaps somewhat in jest) that a chazzan needs to have a nice voice. I responded that you used an invalid prove. You are correct that you can be right even if it is an invalid proof, but then for the same price you could have just said that a chazzan needs to have a good voice because you are right.

“Also, I didn’t realize you were explaining popa’s reason, I thought you were agreeing.”

I was explaining Popa’s reasoning. (I know his reasoning because I was present when he forcibly removed the chazzan in the middle of kedusha. He unfortunately hadn’t realized that the chazzan was [one of] his father in law. Let’s just say that it didn’t end well which is why Popa is looking for a different shul.)

I personally happen to like when the chazzan sings (as long as I know the song). I don’t like it when the chazzan chazzanishly drags out the entire davening (but a little bit is ok).

I wasn’t mixing nothing up.

Agreed!

Actually, I was asserting something, not proving it. But it should be self evident.

I read once that singing in Tefillah has its roots dating back to the Bais Hamikdash. It’s a zecher, an echo of the song the Leveim used to sing daily in service for HaShem in the Bais Hamikdash. That’s why on Shabbosim etc. when the ‘olam’ generally has more time, we express ourselves in song to our Creator at parts of the Tefillah.

I don’t hold of Eilu Va’Eilu.

“Find out where DaMoshe is davening, and then let us know how it was.”

DaMoshe has clearly indicated that he will be singing. Popa has clearly indicated that he doesn’t want any singing. Not a good shidduch. Unless you want DaMoshe to have esrogim thrown at him.

Bump?