August 20, 2012 3:52 am at 3:52 am #892795farrockgrandmaParticipant
Ah, the beauty of a Good Shabbos! In the English language, it is so hard to see a ‘hello’ without adding a ‘how are you?’ A ‘Good Shabbos’ stands on its own. You can never go wrong with saying Good Shabbos, nodding, and continuing on your way. No need to linger and provide fodder for idle gossip. Recognizing and greeting your neighbor is a wonderful thing. (But then, I also don’t live in Brooklyn)August 20, 2012 4:27 am at 4:27 am #892796
Englishman, you answered none of my points. Instead, you transformed a perush Rashi into a psak, equated it to the Torah itself, and accused me of disagreeing with both. It’s quite similar to the judgment that you and a few others pronounce against folks who say GS to members of the opposite gender. What’s next? Loosing violent police on the offenders? After all, Rashi on this week’s parsha “paskened”!August 20, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #892797oomisParticipant
The fact that it doesn’t sit well with you, doesn’t bother them. “
Ah, but the fact that it doesn’t sit well with them, DOES bother ME!August 20, 2012 4:41 am at 4:41 am #892798oomisParticipant
Natfush: “All” ?????? ?? ???? did was greet men on the street. Her being described as a chatterbox was a result of her greeting everyone. And we see where it led her.
Isn’t it AMAZING that a chatterbox was the daughter of a man whose name means “talker?” It’s reminds me of something Jerry Seinfeld once said,”When you name a boy Jeeves, It’s pretty much a done deal that he will grow up to be a butler.”August 20, 2012 9:26 am at 9:26 am #892799CuriosityParticipant
Ya’ll need to stop being so uptight. If you think saying GS to a particular someone passing you on the street will cause you to be nichshal then don’t do it. The rest of us will keep acting like normal people.August 20, 2012 10:03 am at 10:03 am #892800
oomis1105 and others, this CR began with a question about the propriety of men saying GS to girls. Swiftly it went over to accusing members of both genders of the gravest sins in the book as if they’d been raised in S’dom. Commenters have justified this by waving the tsniut banner, tendentiously translating a halacha that’s ambiguous to begin with, using a commentary by Rashi as a psak, etc. I thank you all for this: this morning I davened ????? ??????? ???????? with something closer to kavana than usual because of the thought that I might somehow fall into the clutches of these self-appointed one-man Sanhedrins who are ?? ??? ???? on the flimsiest of evidence.August 20, 2012 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #892801
Shulchan Aruch (EH 21:6) says that one may not ask a woman about her welfare, even via a messenger, and even via her husband. (Based on Bava Metzia 87.) Rashi in Kidushin (70b, DH Ein Sho’alin b’Shalom Ishah Klal) writes that asking a woman about her welfare is prohibited because one thereby “makes her heart and mind familiar with him” and creates a feeling of affection within the woman which could, Chas V’Shalom, lead to sin.
Rambam Mishna Torah, Issurei Biah 21:5 says a man should not send greetings to a woman at all, not even via a messenger.
(Wolf: I corrected the citation of the S”A per your point on the previous page.)August 20, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #892802
(Wolf: I corrected the citation of the S”A per your point on the previous page.)
Now that you agree with me that my actions are wrong and that I am a disgusting, pathetic, deviant (what else would you call someone who violates sections of Even HaEzer with his own relatives as described above), I ask you what actions the community should take against someone like me, taking fully into account the heinousness of my crimes.
The WolfAugust 20, 2012 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #892803
Shlishi: See on the second page where we already discussed those. You presenting those sources as you are is quite possibly Halachically inaccurate and therefore misleading.August 20, 2012 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #892804
shishi, but a perfunctory GS is none of these. A kosher Jew who says GS (and a Jew is taken to be kosher unless proven otherwise) does not say it to invite the recipient to explain how she feels, to create familiarity of heart or mind, or to generate affection, least of all in the public domain. I continue to flinch from interpreting it as evidence of dire sin.
Incidentally, I ordinarily don’t say GS or other perfunctory things (boker tov, etc.) to women or girls. I consider it a chumra that reminds me to respect tsniut generally. I do respond if spoken to; that belongs to derekh erets and prevents Torah from being taken as grim and antisocial.August 20, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #892805
Sam and Naftush: Please explain your understanding of the above referenced Shulchan Aruch and Rambam. Why do they prohibit, al pi halacha, sending a greeting even via a messenger? And considering it is prohibited even via messenger, how could you justify it in person face-to-face?August 20, 2012 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #892806
Shlishi: A greeting does not necessarily qualify as “Sh’eilas Shalom”.August 20, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #892808
You certainly cannot ever stam shmooze with women (or girls) not your immediate family.August 20, 2012 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #8928092scentsParticipant
Interesting, what you consider Assur, others consider Muttar.
I have seen men shmooze (read: laugh and joke around) with non related women, to me this is terribly wrong, to them it is Muttar L’chatchila. .August 20, 2012 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #892810
You certainly cannot ever stam shmooze with women (or girls) not your immediate family.
Who says you can stam shmooze with women even in your own family? Al Tarbeh Sichah applies to one’s own wife too. When I ask my daughter how her day went at school, that’s a sin. When I ask my mother how her back is doing, that’s a sin too. When I ask my sister how my nieces are doing at camp, that’s a sin. When I ask my father how his wife’s [not my mother] surgery went, that, too, is a sin [since she’s an erva to me and I should not ask about her]. These are all sins of which I am guilty and for which I must suffer, and I challenge shlishi, or avhaben or any of that group to find me a single hetter for doing so. The fact is that I am a disgusting pervert for even thinking of doing these things, and I deserve whatever punishment, judicial or extra-judicial, the community wants to mete out to me.
The WolfAugust 20, 2012 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #892811FRUMKIDMember
I grew up “out of town” and moved to Brooklyn as a bachur. I was always very frusterated by the lack of warmth. Out of town including “out of town”-Jerusalem, everyone says good shabbos, even in the frumest communities (maybe not men to women, but to each other is very common). Now in the summer in Boro Park, I would walk in the streets and the other person would purposely look down and not make eye contact with me so he doesn’t have to say Good Shabbos. How cold can you be? It is amazing to me that people dont have manors or social skills. We are brothers, treat each other like brothers, how will moshiach come if we dont even want to look at each other?
Please, next shabbos look someone in the eye and wish them GOOD SHABBOS!August 20, 2012 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #892812
Avhaben: That comment came out of the blue. It’s not related to our thread at all. And why is your immediate family allowed? It should only be your wife or your daughter/mother. Your sister should be Assur too if you learn EH 21. That’s why everyone, at the very least to some extent, holds by the Rama at the end of that Siman.August 20, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #892813
Wolf: Taking the liberty of speaking on behalf of many, we don’t appreciate your ill-humored leitzanus in trying to be dismissive of halachos.August 20, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #892814
Wolf: Taking the liberty of speaking on behalf of many, we don’t appreciate your ill-humored leitzanus in trying to be dismissive of halachos.
Trust me, when I want to be humorous, you will know it. I am being dead-on serious. I am 100% serious when I mention that these are sins that I need to repent for, sins that I keep on doing and sins for which I deserve whatever punishments the community metes out.
The only humorous post I made in this thread was my first where I commented about the OP’s lack of grammar. The rest of my posts were 100% serious.
Normally, I suppose you’d give a regular person the benefit of the doubt before calling them a letz. I understand why you wouldn’t give me that same benefit of the doubt — I’m a proven rasha who does not deserve it. But in this case, you are wrong — I am not mocking.
The WolfAugust 20, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #892815
Avhaben: You miss his point. He’s attempting to prove that what you think of as Halachos can’t possibly be what the actual Halachah is.August 20, 2012 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #892816OneOfManyParticipant
avhaben: Hey – I do not grant you that liberty, and I am quite sure I am one of many.August 20, 2012 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #892817
Sam: Really? Halacha doesn’t prohibit chit-chatting with girls?August 20, 2012 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #892818
Sam: Really? Halacha doesn’t prohibit chit-chatting with girls?
Irrelevant to the argument as saying Good Shabbos or “shoalin b’shlom” does not equal chit-chatting. We’re not discussing chit-chatting in this thread.
The WolfAugust 20, 2012 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #892819
Wolf: I am responding to Sam’s incorrect implication that halacha allows casual talking with women or girls.August 20, 2012 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #892820
Wolf: I am responding to Sam’s incorrect implication that halacha allows casual talking with women or girls.
Fine, whatever. I don’t think anyone was talking about shmoozing until you brought it up anyway. In any event, it’s still not the point of this thread.
And you still have yet to show me that any of the things I mentioned doing are okay. The fact that you cannot/will not shows that you agree with me that they are forbidden and that, as someone who does those things, I should be punished.
The WolfAugust 20, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #892821
Avhaben: Wrong. That is not at all what I said. What I said was that you misunderstood Wolf’s point. Wolf’s point was that if you prohibit Stam talking with all Arayos (other than a mother/daughter) then you would not be allowed to have a conversation with a sister. Heck, you wouldn’t be allowed to say “Good Shabbos” to your wife when she’s a Niddah. This proves that there are exceptions to this “rule”. Now that Wolf had proven that, we can move on to trying to learn what women are prohibited to talk to and under what circumstances. (Note my first post on this thread, by the way.)August 20, 2012 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #892822RebRYMember
It is sad that men don’t greet each other here in Brooklyn. I was in Flatbush for Shabbos ( not because I wanted to be but had to be for a simcha) no one said Gut Shabbos. In Boro Park and Williamsburg most men don’t greet each other unless they know each other. I try to say Gut Shabbos to men sometimes they respond sometimes not. I won’t greet a woman.August 20, 2012 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #892823
Sam: I’m addressing you because you are rational.
So, I imagine you are correct that it is not assur to be say hello to a woman.
But, all that means is that it is not part of a hard rule. It is obviously still subject to a question of what we can see that Hashem wants us to do.
It is quite clear that chazal frowned upon the idea of men and women having relationships. Of course though, it is a question of line drawing. I don’t think it is far fetched at all to say that men and women should not have the sort of relationship where they greet one another in the street, and should not greet one another in the street in order to avoid such relationships.
Before reading this thread, I would have thought it is appropriate to greet a woman on shabbos in the street. But I’ve been convinced otherwise now. I don’t like it.August 21, 2012 1:25 am at 1:25 am #892824
PBA: See my first post in this thread. I said it depends on where you are and what is accepted. If it’s a place where it’s accepted, then it would be rude not to. If you’re in a place where it’s not normally done, then by doing differently you are showing that you are doing something that is not considered standard decency where you are (a similar logic to R’ Moshe’s famous T’shuvah about being friends with a girl) and therefore you are being Over on a very Chamur Issur. I think that makes perfect sense. Do you disagree with that at all?August 21, 2012 1:31 am at 1:31 am #892825
That sounds about right. But I think that norms should be adjusted so that it is not normally done.August 21, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #892826EnglishmanMember
Sam, Rav Moshe’s famous teshuva about being friends with a girl says *emphatically* that it is completely assur. Read it inside.August 21, 2012 1:39 am at 1:39 am #892827
PBA: Communal norms come up for a reason. In small communities, especially, it is very hard to have friends without being friends with their spouses as well. I agree that something would be strange about a large community in New York having looser norms, and maybe that is something for the community to work on, but it’s very hard to dictate norms to communities. Every community has such different dynamics and relationships with the outside world and therefore has different standards. And, hopefully, those standards came about through Shomrei Torah Umitzvos doing what they felt necessary to ensure that they and future generations remained Shomrei Torah Umitzvos. So I really feel like in most cases it’s not so appropriate to try and dictate standards to communities unless the community’s standards are clear violations of Halachah.August 21, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #892828
Englishman: I have. Trust me. I’m sure I know it better than you. It has no direct bearing on whether or not one can say “Good Shabbos” to a girl though.August 21, 2012 2:46 am at 2:46 am #892829gregaaronMember
Before reading this thread, I would have thought it is appropriate to greet a woman on shabbos in the street. But I’ve been convinced otherwise now. I don’t like it.
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. But a perfunctory “Good Shabbos”, without any intention or desire for further conversation (as evidenced by the fact that in many communities, one will say it to any frum person between the ages of 5 and 100) does not, in my opinion, fall under the category of conversation.
(Several years ago, I asked my Rebbeim the question upon which this entire thread is based, and I was told that it depends on community norms.)August 21, 2012 2:51 am at 2:51 am #892830EnglishmanMember
Sam: Igros Moshe EH 4:60 states quote “There is also a severe prohibition from the Torah in close friendships between a young man and woman.” end-quote It makes no exemptions.August 21, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #892831
Englishman: And how is “close friendships” relevant to saying “Good Shabbos” to someone you walk by on the street? I worded my response very carefully and it is accurate.August 21, 2012 3:16 am at 3:16 am #892832gregaaronMember
Your knowledge of the t’shuva is impressive, but it has no relevance to the point that Sam, Naftush, I and others are making, which is that saying good shabbos is not the beginning, middle or end of a “close friendship between a young man and woman”.August 21, 2012 3:25 am at 3:25 am #892833
Englishman: Also, your mistranslation implies a Heter that R’ Moshe never said. Kishrei Re’us should not be translated as “close friendship”. R’ Moshe would Asser even a friendship that would be qualified as “friendly”, not just a close friendship..August 21, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #892834
Sam: Igros Moshe EH 4:60 states quote “There is also a severe prohibition from the Torah in close friendships between a young man and woman.” end-quote It makes no exemptions.
Hey, that’s *exactly* the point I was making regarding the SA. “Ain Shoalim B’shlom Ishah K’lal” — no exemptions. Sister, niece, stepmother, daughter — there are no exceptions to the rule. And since I’ve asked about the welfare of all of the above, it’s obvious that I’m a disgusting pervert.
The WolfAugust 21, 2012 3:45 am at 3:45 am #892835
Sam: Back to our conversation. That actually makes it seem quite worse. You make it seem like people in small communities will actually be friends with their friends’ spouses–not just say “gut shabbos”. I can’t think of any way that Hashem wants that.August 21, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #892836
PBA: Because sometimes it’s necessary to keep Yiddishkeit alive. People can’t stay alone in a bubble and be happy. I will not relate the whole story (it probably wouldn’t get past the mods), but something shockingly close (not inappropriate though) happened between a close friend of mine and a girl he knew. When I asked them how that was at all okay, they both responded, in unison, “He’s like my brohter” and “She’s like my sister”. The two were two of 7 Frum kids in the tiny Midwestern community where they grew up. Close communities there are how Yahadus (or any community) survives. And I don’t know “friends” per se, but people are certainly very friendly, even with members of the opposite gender (though obviously the guys are better friends with the guys and the girls better friends with the girls).August 21, 2012 4:12 am at 4:12 am #892837
That is not my hashkafa.
Also, we are way past the issue of saying good shabbos now. Are you saying that this is the situation in Miami, Chicago, LA, Baltimore, Denver? I’ve been in those places, and there are plenty of people to be friends with.
And that premise doesn’t really make sense to me either. Are you saying there are not enough men to be friends with? How many friends do you need?August 21, 2012 4:22 am at 4:22 am #892838
PBA: No. Miami, Chicago, LA, Baltimore are not like that. Though to be fair, you are right. This is about much more than Good Shabbos. Good Shabbos might be okay even in places where being friendlier is not. And being friendlier might not be okay even in places where Good Shabbos is.August 21, 2012 4:27 am at 4:27 am #892839
Good Shabbos might be okay even in places where being friendlier is not. And being friendlier might not be okay even in places where Good Shabbos is.
Those two sentences are a repetition of each other.August 21, 2012 4:41 am at 4:41 am #892840youngbubbyMember
farrockgrandma: You are absolutely correct. A gut shabbos greeting is just good manners.
wolf: You are frightening. Find yourslf a good psychiatrist asap.
pba: You are from a friendly, out of town community. You can’t possibly agree that saying gut shabbos is anything more than a perfunctory greeting, and is appropriate most anywhere except Brooklyn, where no one greets anyone nicely or wishes anyone well.August 21, 2012 4:48 am at 4:48 am #892841
I come from? I come from Monsey.
And sure, it is a perfunctory greeting. And the purpose is to be friendly. And I’d prefer you weren’t friendly with my wife, thanks so much.August 21, 2012 4:57 am at 4:57 am #892842
So one time I went to my cousin’s kid’s bris in Jerusalem. My cousin’s neighbor (from the same landing in their building, 2 apts on each landing, who I naturally recognized because the kids are always back and forth and I was always around) was pulling a stroller up the staircase. So my other cousin and I offered to carry it for her.
She said no. And she was correct. We should not be friends.
It was appropriate for me to offer, and it was just as appropriate for her to refuse. We should not be accepting favors from one another. We should not be building positive feelings about one another; we should be strangers.August 21, 2012 9:07 am at 9:07 am #892843
PBA, you said “it is a perfunctory greeting. And the purpose is to be friendly.” Webster’s dictionary disagrees: “perfunctory: characterized by routine or superficiality : done merely as a duty : CURSORY, MECHANICAL.”
I stand my ground.August 21, 2012 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #892844
Natfush: Don’t stand your ground on technical dictionary terms. Popa’s correctly noted the idea of greeting someone is to be friendly. And he is correct about the propriety (or, rather, lack thereof) of such friendliness.August 21, 2012 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #892845
PBA: See, that’s where I might disagree. Depending on the situation, it would not at all be inappropriate to refuse. If accepting would build closer personal feelings, then it would probably not be so appropriate. But if it just builds gratitude or goodwill in general that anyone is willing to be so nice, I see no problem at all (and, once again, what type of feelings it will cause probably depends on what the communities were like that each of them grew up in and live in).
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