August 16, 2012 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #892742MorahRachMember
I don’t live in Brooklyn and I have spent very little if any time there, so I do no know how people greet each other on shabbos or any other day. Where I live, which is a very frum community as well, men will nod to me and
/say good shabbos almost every time. I don’t think anyone has ever walked passed me on shabbos and put their heads down. I am talking about very yeshivish men, not chassidish maybe it makes a difference. This is a reason I love me neighborhood. I don’t know many people besides my friends but everyone is friendly. And 2 millisecond ” good shabbos” or a pleasant nod doesn’t do any harm. This has never led to IMO any bad behavior on my Part and I would assume on the part of then men who wish me and my husband a good shabbos.August 16, 2012 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #892743Sam2Participant
mw13: You are ignoring an entire Sugya about what constitutes Sh’eilas Shalom. Most of the Poskim (maybe even all nowadays) hold that M’ikar Hadin it’s Muttar to say hello to someone in a bathroom because that’s not called Sh’eilas Shalom (yes, I know the M”B has a Midas Chassidus for men to never talk in a bathroom at all).
Naftush: I won’t discuss the Rama at length because people here would call me a Sheigetz for it (I know, it’s only a Rama, right?), but yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying he says. It contains a Kula, certainly. But there is a Chumra that comes along with it (although to be fair, the Mechaber would probably agree to this Chumra as well).August 16, 2012 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #892744oomisParticipant
MW13 your mekoros can be interpreted another way from the way you understand it.
Sif katan vav: “Ain shoelin bi’ shalom eisha klal”, which, simply read, means “do not greet a woman at all”.
Respectfully, it ain’t necessarily so. It might likewise mean when simply read, ” One does not inquire after the well-being of a(married) woman at all.” The word “Shoelin” means to ask about something. The mechaber could be more literally saying that a man should either not enagage in personal “hi, how are you?” conversation with a woman, or even to ask her HUSBAND about his wife. These are two things that can lead to personal interaction under some circumstances, though most normal people are fully capable of a quick hi how are you without having sinful thoughts.
“Hevei makdim shalom li’kol adam” could easily be translated as “greet every man”, not “every person”. (The Mishna is obviously addressed only to men; however, one would imagine that the same would apply to a woman greeting a woman.)
Come on! L’kol adam clearly means every PERSON. “Adam” is a general term for mankind. So what if the Mishna (according to you) is addressed only to men (and I don’t know that I accept that to be 100% true). Aren’t women also required to follow all the laws of the Mishnah and Gemarah? Does the Mishna NOT discuss Hilchos Mikvah,Challah, and Neiros? Are women exempt from shmiras Shabbos and kashrus? Are these things not discussed in the Mishna?
As for women greeting other WOMEN – it clearly goes without saying that that this is proper and good, that’s not a chidush. The chidush is in including ALL people. Do you have any idea how a simple good morning or good shabbos or whatever, can lift the spirits of someone who might be ina bad mood? And how it reinforces the good feelings of someone who is in a GOOD mood?
I think that the interpretation of some of these ideas is just a rationalization for some people to exhibit their very poor middos.
When I see someone in the street and say Good Shabbos (and it could be that it is even a woman), and on VERY rare occasions there is not only no response, but they make a point of ignoring me, my thought is “well YOU have yourself a NICE day.”August 16, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #892745yehudayonaParticipant
I don’t live in Brooklyn. I say GS to men and boys unless they’re engaged in conversation. Almost all respond. I only say GS to women and girls I know, but if other women/girls instigate, I return the greeting. Am I a shaygetz? Oh, never mind. My first sentence contains the answer.August 16, 2012 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #892746
“Ain shoelin bi’ shalom eisha klal”,
I asked my wife how my daughter’s day at camp went. Interestingly enough, I think that should be forbidden.
1. The SA and the Rema make no exceptions for daughters.
2. The added word “klal” seems, to me, to be inclusive of everything, including one’s family and perhaps even one’s wife.
I guess I won’t ask about my daughter any more. Perhaps then I might take a step towards no longer being the lecherous, perverted sick excuse for a human being that I am.
The WolfAugust 16, 2012 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #892747
I really think that it boils down to the community.
In some areas it is OK to great or talk to the opposite gender, in other communities it is unacceptable to do so.
Which way is the right one. I don’t think that it is up to some online posters to decide.
That said, there is no issue with people of the same gender to great each other. I feel sad when I see someone ignoring my greeting, I look at them as an not (yet) fully trained individual.August 16, 2012 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #892749oomisParticipant
I think the “Good Shabbos”ers have it.August 16, 2012 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #892750shtark4everMember
what has become of us nothing will happen if we say good shabbos to a girl if we passing by. stopping and shmuezzing is a different issue but just saying good shabbos is being polte i dont think one should intiate the good shabbos but if a girl says it to you abd she is not doing it in a pritzusdik way then you should forsure anwserAugust 16, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #892751
That could very well be your opinion. However everyone is entitled to follow the ruling and hashkafa of their own community.
There are a number of communities that consider it inappropriate for members of the opposite gender to greet and chat. The fact that it doesn’t sit well with you, doesn’t bother them.August 16, 2012 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #892752mw13Participant
Yes, there is indeed a full sugya about what does and does not constitute sheilas shalom. I am not denying that, nor am I suggesting that those who wish members of the opposite gender a “Good Shabbos” have no poskim to rely on; far from it. I was merely responding to Naftush’s comment that called the concept of forbidding interactions between the genders an “outrage”, and demanded a mekor for it in halacha. I was simply pointing out that this idea does indeed have a mekor in the Shulchan Oruch, and as such should not be bashed and branded an outrage so quickly.August 16, 2012 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #892753
What are girls (men)?August 17, 2012 12:07 am at 12:07 am #892754OneOfManyParticipant
Trying to apply the associative property?August 17, 2012 12:19 am at 12:19 am #892755WIYMember
Lol. Good one. You wait and then you pounce.August 17, 2012 12:46 am at 12:46 am #892756
WIY: I hadn’t been online in a couple days. I was still on vacation.August 17, 2012 1:00 am at 1:00 am #892757shlishiMember
popa: I thought the CR is your vacation.August 17, 2012 1:06 am at 1:06 am #892758princess17Member
in out of town places boys are more likely to say good shabbos to girls. but the girl should not start it if the boy says good shabbos then she can answer him but the boy has to start . im not saying he should but if someone does initiate it it should be the boy not the girl . i heard this for other things as well like if a girl sees a boy cousin on the street and he doesnt say hi then she should not eithr but if he says hi then she can say hi backAugust 17, 2012 1:55 am at 1:55 am #892759
That’s really weird, p17.August 17, 2012 3:46 am at 3:46 am #892760
mw13, I did not treat the concept of forbidding interactions between the genders as an “outrage”. I used the word to describe one poster’s insinuation that saying GS to the opposite gender is evidence of loose morals.August 17, 2012 4:44 am at 4:44 am #892761ZeesKiteParticipant
Does anyone happen to know how ?????? ?? ???? got her name?August 17, 2012 6:30 am at 6:30 am #892762
??. ????????? ???? ????????? ???????????????? ??? ??????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???????? ???:
??? ??? ????? ?? ????: ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???, ????, ???? ???? ???? ????:
?????: ???? ????? ??? ???, ??? ???, ??? ??????, ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???:
??????????. [Her name denotes that] she was a chatterbox, [always going about saying] [men] [She would] chatter about with words, greeting everyone.
?? ????: ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???, ????? ?????:
the daughter of Dibri: [This denotes that] she was very talkative, talking (??????????) with every person. That is why she fell into sin.August 17, 2012 9:20 am at 9:20 am #892763Avi KParticipant
In NY they say “If I want to have a lousy Shabbat I’ll have a lousy Shabbat”.August 17, 2012 10:56 am at 10:56 am #892764avrahParticipant
A Rebbe of mine once said “If a Bais Yaakov girl is going to go against what her Morah’s taught her and say Good Shobbos one shouldn’t respond.” Of course as commented above this may not always be what everyone was taught.August 17, 2012 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #892765yichusdikParticipant
Only one thing to say.
I grew up in the Agudas Yisroel shul in my city. Most of the founders of the shul were survivors – Mostly Galitzianer, but also some litvaks, Hungarians, and a smattering of different chasidim from across Europe. These were musmachim and balabatim who were educated in the finest yeshivos in Europe.
They all, each and every one of them, said good shabbos or gut yomtov to every Jew they passed, man or woman. Always. Every opportunity.
That is also how it was done in Krakow, where my father, grandfather, and generations earlier came from.
That is the mesorah I have. And I have a pretty strong Mesorah in my family.
So if you want to discard menschlichkeit and call “good shabbos” pritzus, you aren’t being a Pinchas, you are being foolish.
Englishman, if you are going to translate Rashi, do it properly, don’t cut and paste a transliteration that is not precise, and is intended to be oblique. You will end up mistaking cause for effect, as yo have done.
As others, especially Oomis, have so ably shown, Ein Shoalin … and Al Tarbeh sicha…. have their own contexts and meanings, neither of which applies to a situation where both parties are in movement past each other, in a public place, and are not having sicha or dibur, as they are understood in halocho.
Pure, unadulterated zealotry, to no useful purpose.
I guess I had more than one thing to say.
Seriously?August 17, 2012 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #892766wanderingchanaParticipant
Good Shabbos, everybody!!!
🙂August 17, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #892767
A Rebbe of mine once said “If a Bais Yaakov girl is going to go against what her Morah’s taught her and say Good Shobbos one shouldn’t respond.”
And how am I supposed to know exactly what a young woman’s Bais Yaakov teacher taught her regarding saying “Good Shabbos?”
The WolfAugust 17, 2012 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #892768
Oh, damn… I did it again. I asked my wife how my daughter’s doctor’s appointment went. And I also asked my sister how her daughter (my niece) is doing in camp.
More evidence that I am a lecherous, perverted, disgusting human being who should be shot on sight.
The WolfAugust 17, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #892769yentingyentaParticipant
I live around the corner from a shul. one shabbos I was walking home with my almost 5 year old sister. we passed a few married men/couples/girls walking and they said good shabbos. As we passed the shul, a group of boys/young men were leaving the shul and just as we passed them, my sister said (innocently and loudly of course cuz she can) “how come they didn’t say good shabbos?” B”H these boys saved me from answering her and a few called GS over their shoulders
Most yeshiva boys I pass move over to the grass so they don’t have the CH”V walk on the same sidewalk as a girl. seriously? I don’t have cooties ya know. but the fathers I see walking w/ their children do say GS. I was a B’nos counselor for 4 years and saw ALOT of fathers w/ kidsAugust 17, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #892770
Hey, I like the fact that not all of the girls will respond to my “good shabbos”. At least now I know they’re completely not for me…August 17, 2012 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #892771
As I mentioned, if that is the way it is done in your community, good for you.
This doesn’t mean that people of other communities should start following your menhagim.August 17, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #892772Shraga18Participant
Zeeskite and Englishman,
You two don’t get it. Shlomis Bas Divri was brought up way back on the first page of this thread, and the whole issue was carefully ignored for the rest of the thread by those whose worldview it didn’t fit.
And know you two have to go and bring it up again. C’mon, get with the program!August 17, 2012 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #892773Shraga18Participant
“Pure, unadulterated zealotry, to no useful purpose.”
Actually I think a zealot is someone who isn’t willing to see someone elses point of view or opinion, much like you seem to be doing…August 17, 2012 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #892774
You might not be aware, however it is Assur for a man to walk behind a lady.August 17, 2012 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #892775yentingyentaParticipant
2scents, yes I am aware of that. I was walking towards my house, the boys in the other direction. There was no walking behind me because we were walking in opposite direction. Thanx for the concern thoughAugust 17, 2012 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #892776yichusdikParticipant
Shraga, you are partly right. I guess I shouldn’t tell others what strictures to put on themselves. So if someone wants to ignore the Jews they pass on shabbos that do not meet certain criteria, I can’t tell them they have to.
Do not for a minute think that such a choice of chumra is normative practice or demanded by halocho, or that someone who does not follow your chumra is transgressing. That would be pure unadulterated zealotry, to no useful purpose.
2scents, see above.August 19, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #892777
Hey, I like the fact that not all of the girls will respond to my “good shabbos”. At least now I know they’re completely not for me…
And this precisely proves why men should not be greeting women and women greeting men, in the street. You perfectly show how the casual encounter actually does have a sexual overtone.August 19, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #892778Sam2Participant
I feel like today’s Daf has a line relevant to this discussion.August 19, 2012 10:07 am at 10:07 am #892779
Englishman, here we go again: it’s about a perfunctory GS. Not chattering, not arayot, not luring others into arayot, not negiya, not flirting, not sexual overtones, not (to pre-empt the next commenters) avoda zara, shefikhut damim, etc. etc.August 19, 2012 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #892780
Natfush: “All” ?????? ?? ???? did was greet men on the street. Her being described as a chatterbox was a result of her greeting everyone. And we see where it led her.August 19, 2012 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #892781Feif UnParticipant
pba: I don’t think he meant anything about sexual overtones. I think he just meant that rude girls are not for him.August 19, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #892782
pba: I don’t think he meant anything about sexual overtones. I think he just meant that rude girls are not for him.
Thanks, Feif Un. I wouldn’t necessarily call them rude – after all, they feel it’s the right thing to do – but it shows a certain hashkafa which, while maybe making them better people than I, is not what I am looking for in a life partner. I definitely did not mean it the way PBA took it. 🙂August 19, 2012 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #892783
Feif: I think you misunderstood pba’s point. pba is (correctly) pointing out that the person who made that comment was giving his “shabbos greetings” to girls on the street with sexual overtones even if he didn’t outwardly acknowledge he was doing so. Perhaps he even told himself he wasn’t, but his comment (that pba responded to) proved he did in fact have those overtones, as he was evaluating their lascivious value to himself.August 19, 2012 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #892784
Feif: I think you misunderstood pba’s point. pba is (correctly) pointing out that the person who made that comment was giving his “shabbos greetings” to girls on the street with sexual overtones even if he didn’t outwardly acknowledge he was doing so. Perhaps he even told himself he wasn’t, but his comment (that pba responded to) proved he did in fact have those overtones, as he was evaluating their lascivious value to himself.
Sorry Englishman, but for once PBA had it wrong. Judging a girl – especially one who has been suggested – for shidduchim purposes is not “evaluating lascivious value”; otherwise, there would be no excuse for the entire shidduch process. Saying good shabbos has nothing to do with sexual overtones – it’s the way I was brought up, that one says good shabbos to every Jew (and indeed is the way it’s done in my relatively right-wing neighborhood). If I see a girl that was suggested to me, and I’m weighing the pros and cons of giving a yes, her not returning a good shabbos greeting says something about her – again, not something negative, but something that indicates that we are probably on different pages hashkafically.August 19, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #892785
You continue to prove the point.
As you note, you are using the encounter to evaluate whether you would like to marry her. That is, the encounter is not entirely platonic.
You happen to think that sort of encounter is appropriate, and I agree (for people in your situation). But, it certainly is not appropriate if the woman is not a potential mate, and you should agree to that.August 19, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #892786
Englishman, I continue to disagree and I find it odious to liken a girl saying GS to Shlomit bat Dibri. You and a few others aren’t even bothering to warn about a potential slippery slope. You’re going straight to the wholesale condemnation of strangers for the direst of sins on grounds that are flimsy, to put it mildly. I see no ????? in it, no ?????, no ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? (because I’m sure you’d object to being on the receiving end of this treatment), etc.August 19, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #892787
Natfush: You are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with the Torah — and a b’feirush posek with Rashi, at that.August 19, 2012 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #892788
As you note, you are using the encounter to evaluate whether you would like to marry her. That is, the encounter is not entirely platonic.
That may be so, but I have been saying good Shabbos to everyone since long before I was dating, and will continue to do so (community permitting) even after I am married, when there will obviously not be any such intentions. (Even now, I still say good Shabbos to my parents’ friends – such as the Rebbitzin of the Shul – and have yet to not receive a response.)August 19, 2012 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #892789
greg: People long before they’re dating and even long after they’re married are, often, also guilty of having less than platonic conversations or greetings, all the while being in self-denial about it.August 19, 2012 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #892790
Doesn’t Shulchan Aruch pasken that a male is prohibited from even indirectly sending a greeting to a woman through her husband (!!), let alone greeting her directly.August 20, 2012 12:15 am at 12:15 am #892791shlishiMember
Shulchan Aruch (EH 21:6) says that one may not ask a married woman about her welfare, even via a messenger, and even via her husband. (Based on Bava Metzia 87.) Rashi in Kidushin (70b, DH Ein Sho’alin b’Shalom Ishah Klal) writes that asking a woman about her welfare is prohibited because one thereby “makes her heart and mind familiar with him” and creates a feeling of affection within the woman which could, Chas V’Shalom, lead to sin.
Rambam Mishna Torah, Issurei Biah 21:5 says a man should not send greetings to a woman at all, not even via a messenger.August 20, 2012 12:54 am at 12:54 am #892792
Shulchan Aruch (EH 21:6) says that one may not ask a married woman about her welfare, even via a messenger, and even via her husband. (Based on Bava Metzia 87.)
The SA does not say “married.” It doesn’t say “Ain Shoalin Bshlom Aishes Ish Klal.” It says “Ain Shoalim Bshlom Isah K’lal.” It seems to me that it should be forbidden to ask about a non-married woman too. Furthermore, the fact that the word “Klal” (at all) is included indicates to me that there are NO exceptions.
That’s why I’m such a perverted sick human being. The other day I asked my wife about my daughter’s doctor appointment and I asked my sister how my neice was doing at camp. I realize that I should not have done those things and that I should be shunned by the community as a deviant for these disgusting acts that are clearly in violation of the Shulchan Aruch.
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