February 6, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #594789an ideaParticipant
I’m just curious of getting the CRs opinion of something that was bothering me: what percentage of homes in the frum community do you think have shalom bayis issues? What are the key issues that you think hurt shalom bayis today?February 6, 2011 1:19 am at 1:19 am #740245toomuch00Member
Money. Control. at least in my home..February 6, 2011 1:22 am at 1:22 am #740246Be HappyParticipant
money worriesFebruary 6, 2011 1:28 am at 1:28 am #740247truth be toldMember
?? ??? ????? ????February 6, 2011 1:36 am at 1:36 am #740248Lomed Mkol AdamMember
I’m not an expert with this issue, however, from my observation I would assume many marriages have issues but are still tolerable so they survive; and there are many that are almost on the verge of breaking.
I would divide shalom bayis issues into two categories:
1. Everything is running normal w/o any outside factors to aggravate it, but spouses just can’t get along with each other. 2. Outside factors like financial stress are aggravating the marriage and causing strain in their relationship.
The former, i would assume is being caused by one spouse being ‘dominant’ type, and too controlling of the other spouse. Either other spouse can tolerate it, or he/she becomes too miserable to be able to handle it and marriage becomes destroyed.
The latter, is obviousy caused by husband feeling inferior and insecure over his failure to bring parnassah to the home; whereas he starts to feel threatened by his wife [as if she’s confronting him over is failures] and then, as a result, he takes it out on her and emotionally abuses her thereby aggravating or destroying the marriage.
I’m not a professional; this is just a layman’s opinion.February 6, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #740249565656Participant
NO one thing is the casue but:
– spoiled generation- people think everything is coming to them.
– lack of realization that husband and wife are meant to bedifferent and must work things out!February 6, 2011 2:03 am at 2:03 am #740250ShrekMember
“shalom bayis issues” is kind of vague. could you be more specific? do you mean spousal abuse? do you mean couples who are in unhappy marriages?February 6, 2011 6:14 am at 6:14 am #740251
Lomed,not always is a spouse abusive because HIS WIFE made him feel inferior.Sometimes,the wife starts out in awe of the guy,BUT HIS OWN UNRESOLVED ISSUES OF CHILDHOOD,coupled with really stupid advice from his peers and mentors cause his abusive behavior to become unbearable.
I would like to take this opportunity to say:
Many of us now-single mothers had to become strong and unafraid IN ORDER TO RUN OUR HOMES AND TAKE CARE OF OUR CHILDREN ON OUR OWN.Do not jump to the totally WRONG conclusion that this new-found strength IS WHAT SCARED THE POOR LITTLE HUSBANDS.
You could not be further from the truth!February 6, 2011 6:32 am at 6:32 am #740252i am hereMember
A lot is from not being mevater and expecting everything to just come to them.
Also being an abused child can lead to being an abuser if not taken care of, along with that being a control freak!
Parnasa and not dealing with it correctly.February 6, 2011 6:59 am at 6:59 am #740253
I think the women today are too outgoing. They stroll the streets being dressed to the T. The Tznius today is BAD and the street is always full of woman.
Sadly, the men see all these dressed up ladies, MANY of them walking in a flirting way, and it doesn’t do good to his own marriage….
I think this ruins many marriages, and I personally know of a few such tragic marriages. Correct me if I’m wrong please.February 6, 2011 8:25 am at 8:25 am #740254
The problem with Shalom Bayis is the lack of personal responsibility and accountability. Stop making excuses like men looking at women in the street, or being abused as a child therefore being abusers. Everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves and being accountable for their own actions. One must understand the purpose of getting marriage, the importance of marriage, and the proper way to conduct a frum marriage. Each partner in the marriage is responsible to do their part to make the marriage work and to make the other one feel loved and respected.February 6, 2011 10:23 am at 10:23 am #740255intersaantehMember
Mingling mommas and poppas (no relation to the great PBA.February 6, 2011 11:18 am at 11:18 am #740256Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Eclipse: I’m with you, I didn’t say the wife ‘makes’ him feel inferior; I meant the husband may naturally feel inferior, because he’s lacking proper emotional health [due to his childhood upbringing], and coupled with his feelings of guilt [that his own miscalculations and/or lack of skill has caused his downfall of parnassah]. You should definitely be commended for picking yourself up and leaving an abusive marriage [and I’m a man speaking]. May Hashem give you strength to continue to raise a special yiddishe family.
Smart Cookie: I disagree with your assumption. If a marriage is healthy on the emotional level, then other pretty women will not affect a man’s marriage, since a man/woman naturally learn how to appreciate whatever they have, even if it may seem that the grass is greener elsewhere.February 6, 2011 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #740257
smartcookie, you have a point, we ought to consider mandating burkas for the outdoors. Everyone will live happily ever after.February 6, 2011 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #740258
Over the very many years that I was married,two friends’ husbands asked me if I could “get ” their wives to be more optimistic about things;they thought their wives complained too much.
I very quickly made myself sound very imperfect “Oh,I complain in the house,etc.” because I did not want them to entertain the thought for even ONE SECOND that anyone was better than their own wives in any way.
When a man sees someone elses’s wife and starts wondering how much better she is than what he has at home,he is treading on dangerous territory.
Prutzos who INTEND to turn the heads of other married men are playing with fire!February 6, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #740259
Lomed,thanks.February 6, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #740260
smartcookie, seriously though, if there are “frum” women in your neighborhood who dress “beyond the line”, perhaps its time to move to a frummer neighborhood, with more conservative values. You cant control the way those who arent coreligionists dress. If a man’s eyes will roam, they will roam towards women who are not coreligionists as well.February 6, 2011 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #740261
Of course- the Torah doesn’t tell us to wear Burkahs. The torah tells us certain guidelines which we must follow. But I don’t always see that happening either.February 6, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #740262
smartcookie,we need more tznius trendsettersFebruary 6, 2011 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #740263
Eclipse- we need more women with common sense.
Rules don’t work. People just have to do what they feel is right and stop fooling themselves. (This tshirt is SO NOT tight….uhu….)
And many woman convince themselves that it’s Lshem Shomayim- they dress very
for their hubbies. But they’re forgetting that on the street they are in public.(And hubby is usually at work then anyway!)February 6, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #740264
Ofcourse- it’s not the problem of men’s eyes “roaming”.
It’s a major problem of woman dressing like models. They are screaming to everyone out there- look at me.
Even I, as a woman, sometimes stare at people and can’t believe how they’re dressed.February 6, 2011 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #740265
eclipse, “because I did not want them to entertain the thought for even ONE SECOND that anyone was better than their own wives in any way”.
Uch In Vay if a guy comes to a woman’s friend for help with his wife’s flaws. That reeks of trouble. I dont know if thats Halachically permitted. Ive heard of many improper alliances starting innocently, EXACTLY like that. Lifnei Iver Lo Sitein Michshol. I think, with the best intentions, any woman (self appointed marriage counselor) involving themselves with a friend’s husband that way, is less Tzniusdik than those with dressing issues. I think the safest response would be “Sorry, Im not Mekabel and I’m not a marriage counselor”. That would give the guy the right message.February 6, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #740266
Shalom Bayis does not happen on its own. It is a commitment and each partner needs to be committed to the other. Wandering eyes lack commitment (don’ blame the women, there are goytas out there as well). Childhood issues need to be addressed through therapy and not dragged through a marriage, that lacks commitment to Shalom Bayis. Each spouse needs to be responsible and accountable for their own part and their own commitment to the marriage and Shalom Bayis.February 6, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #740267flowersParticipant
you asked two questions, yet nobody here seems to care about answering the first one.
From what I have observed, shalom bayis is alive and well in most frum homes.
As for the second question. what hurts most?
*Some people just can’t get along with others, so it wouldn’t make a diff who they married.
*Never being taught to handle life’s challanges effectively.February 6, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #740268agittayidParticipant
There are probably many reasons for shalom bayis problems. There is no one size fits all cause or solution.
For consideration, is the quiet revolution that has changed the roles of husband and wife in the marriage. The traditional husband as breadwinner, has been replaced by a combination of income from wife, support from relatives, charity, and public welfare. This may have caused a fundamental change in marital relationships, with many unintended consequences.February 6, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #740269
of course– I’m not into cold curt answers.I let them both see that outside everyone seems 100% jolly…and that we all get tired and cranky sometimes.February 6, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #740270
Aries- goy’tes aren’t half aas bad. When a man sees a untznius goy’ta, he knows it’s totally not in his reality.
When he sees a frun woman looking very attractive, he may think “why doesn’t my wife look like her too?”
This isn’t a major divorce reason. But it definitely creates A LOT of problems in our community.February 6, 2011 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #740271
SC, I hate to burst your bubble. If you ever find yourself in Manhattan please put on your darkest glasses. You might come upon some very frum (and chasidish) men out with shiksas. It is in his reality IF he is looking for it. IF he is not looking for it, he wouldn’t notice anyone.February 6, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #740272
aries2756, “You might come upon some very frum (and chasidish) men out with shiksas.”
Thats a very acusatory statement. How did you prove that they were Goytas? They might have been modern Sefardis? Not good, but not the same.
Anyhow, am I the only blind/naive one who has NEVER seen a frum man dating a Shiksa or even a “modern Sefardi”?February 6, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #740273
litvish guys stay out all night tooFebruary 6, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #740274
All this is true, however the remark was that when these men look at untzniesdik frum ladies, it ruins their shalom bayis. My point is if THEY are ehrliche men committed to their wives and shalom bayis they wouldn’t be looking. Anyone looking is lacking in commitment.
The problem is NOT who these men are out with, the problem is THAT THEY are out with women and they are NOT their wives. THEY don’t appreciate their tzniusdik wives they WANT to be menuvals, and they don’t care about what they might be bringing home with them.February 6, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #740275
Aries- nobody’s denying that men are out for Shiktzas too. But when they see our Heimishe, Frum woman looking a certain way, they think it’s ok to look like that.
(When with a shiktzah, they know it’s wrong and don’t expect their own wives to look/act that way.)
Please don’t deny this problem. Obviously, the ultimate fault is the man’s fault. But it’s the WOMAN’S Tznius that brings problems upon the men. They bring the Yetzer Hora and make it very difficult for men to keep their eyes to themselves.
Maybe you just don’t look out enough. Wait until the winter jackets come off and then tell me if it’s a normal situation out there.February 6, 2011 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #740276
Aries you just proved my point. You say the problem is that some men lack commitment. But think- what does that come from? From the women who want to be seen…they are USUALLY the cause to why the men lose commitment and cant control their minds to do what’s right.February 6, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #740277
If I understand this conversation correctly, the problem is the other frum women who are not dressing appropriately.
If we follow this, then if a woman decides to dress appropriately, her marriage will suffer, but her neighbor’s marriage will improve.
If I was in that situation, I know what I would do.February 6, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #740278
Poppa- why will a marriage suffer if the woman is dressed appropriately? (It’s possible to dress beautifully AND appropo)February 6, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #740279chayav inish livisumayParticipant
the shoresh of the word ahava is hav which means to give. when the giving in a marriage is compromised, it causes shalom bayis issues. people have to stop being so selfishFebruary 6, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #740280shlishiMember
popa. the implication of what you said is that you would have her )!dress inappropriately (since that would allegedly help her marriageFebruary 6, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #740281
smartcookie and shlishi:
I don’t know. I am just following the conversation, which was arguing that the problem is that men look at other women who are dressed inappropriately.February 6, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #740282
Poppa- that’s why we have a Torah which tells us that a WOMAN may not dress inappropriately in any circumstance.
Come on- don’t act dumb. Inappropriate doesn’t mean wearing huge rags, and smelly ones at that. Everything has its limit.February 6, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #740283
Since when does “appropriately” mean unattractively?
Let’s not get confused here.
You can look put together ALL the time!
If a guy has “restless eyes”,yes,even that will do the trick.
But you don’t have to look like Rebitzen Shlumpola–just don’t be going out of your way to knock everyone’s eyes out!February 6, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #740284
Your indignation is misplaced.
I am not advocating anything, nor making any judgments. I am simply adding up the sum of the previous posts.
It was posited that a problem in sholom bayis is men looking at other women, which is caused by said other women dressing inappropriately.
Implicit was the suggestion that men are more likely to find a woman attractive is she is dressed inappropriately.
I just added up that if so, the woman who dresses appropriately, while helping her neighbor, will be hurting herself.
Of course, that is not a justification.
And it may not even be true, as you are all now saying.February 6, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #740285
The problem is that some people keep putting the ONUS on the women when the ONUS is on the men! Women have to follow their mitzvas and men have to follow theirs. Don’t blame a woman for what a man does, blame the man. Furthermore, if a husband TELLS his wife NOT to dress that way, she WON’T. So, where does that leave the men once again. Let’s lie the fault at the right feet, OK? Each person has to be accountable and responsible for themselves and not for others.February 6, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #740286shlishiMember
“Implicit was the suggestion that men are more likely to find a woman attractive if she is dressed inappropriately.”
that is pretty explicit i would think. if someone is dressed inappropriately of course many men will notice. isnt that the reason women arent supposed to dress inappropriately?February 6, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #740287
Popa,I get it–you were “tongue-in-cheek”…
What I meant by “do the trick” was,
if a guy is seeking “trouble”,
any skirt and sheitl will do-NOT YOUR FAULT.
But stirring up a GOOD GUY WHO IS TRYING SO HARD TO DO THE RIGHT THING IS JUST RISH’US.
I see how valiantly my own boys try to be shomer aynayim,I wish I could protect them from it all…February 6, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #740288agittayidParticipant
Straying men or women are a symptom of a deeper underlying problem. Problems wont be solved by worrying about what others are doing or wearing, but by developing self-understanding and maturity.February 6, 2011 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #740289KeenObserverMember
This thread is totally off the rails. Do you all really think that every little squabble between husband and wife is caused by the neighbor’s tight skirt?February 6, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #7402901dayatatimeParticipant
You’re %100 percent correct
If a guy is lusting after his neighbor then his issue lies far, far, deeper than just his neighbor.
It defenitely can add to it, but, it is far from the issue itself
My comment is not based on Tznius, I’m a guy and I cannot comment on that, I think it’s the women who need to be the ones to talk about it and stress its importance
1dayFebruary 6, 2011 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #740291deiyezoogerMember
i think there is a middle way to everything, for example, “excellent-good-fair-poor” you dont must be excellent(including marriage/looks)good should be fine for everybody in this world, but for some people fair is also right. poor, should nebach not be for us. my point is,if we (yidden)stick to the good catagory all the time, in any situation,we will be better off in life,and not cause anybody men/woman to fall into any unconfortable situations anywhere. hope my point was clear enough,if not, let me know!!!February 6, 2011 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #740292
“restless eyes”–I meant there is already a problem,not CAUSED by external factors….just exacerbated by it.February 6, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #7402931dayatatimeParticipant
” THEY don’t appreciate their tzniusdik wives they WANT to be menuvals, and they don’t care about what they might be bringing home with them.”
I don’t think you understand the real issue at hand.
A Menuval is a person who has the ability to choose between right and wrong, and they choose the wrong
Sometimes the people who are doing these things don’t even know what they’re doing, they are ADDICTS-they need help
If you can understand that, fine, if not let’s leave it at that
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