September 23, 2008 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #588327outoftownerMember
We have a big problem these days. We have wonderful, beautiful, amazing girls, who have good middos, are tzanua, are pleasant, and sweet, who have good jobs, and looking forward to raising a family,, and their only apparent (visible) fault is that they are not a size 2,4,6 or 8. Because they are not skinny or thin, they are viewed to be deficient in some way. And I find it amazing because these girls could have everything going for them, but they will be turned down and not even considered before a boy dates a girl with half of the fine qualities who is thin. Its so fascinating how today we support girls starving and dieting in order to get a date! What kind of unhealthy habits are we promoting? Is there something INHERENTLY wrong with the person because she isn’t skinny? Of course there is a line where being too heavy is unhealthy, but being to skinny is just as unhealthy if not even more dangerous. People assume that overweight people are impulsive and grotesque, where really many of them are sweet amazing girls who try so hard, diet 24/7, excercise all day, and they just can’t get the weight off. Why are mothers teaching their sons to be weary of the dress size of a girl? I find it amazing that mothers have the audacity to ask what size a girl is. Girls who are not “fortunate” enough to have a small build feel like less of a person because of something so superficial and so physical. I know of a girl who was 20 years old. and was overweight. A shadchan redt her a boy who was hashkafically NOT for her, he was divorced, and he had a child from his previous marriage… The shadchan told her that because of her circumstance (being heavier) she would have to compromise… Not only are people not redting these girls to normal boys, but they are also insulting them, degrading them, and offending them. I just think we need to think about the message we are sending when we hold physicality to be such a priority, and we downplay some important things that boys should be looking for in a wife like good middos and menschlichkeit. I also think the message we are sending to our children is that you are only worth something if you are thin and beautiful. This is chukas hagoyim, which is basically saying the more emaciated you are the more beautiful you are the more you are worth to someone else. I know that this is the world, and there is not much to be done about it, I just don’t think it is right, and many times you should not judge a person at face value, by appearance alone, and if you look a little beyond surface deep you will find something beautiful you weren’t willing to give a chance before.September 23, 2008 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #625309DocParticipant
You are completely correct.September 23, 2008 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #625310Feif UnParticipant
I agree with you on some points. A girl shouldn’t be turned down sight unseen. However, to say that weight shouldn’t be a factor at all is ridiculous. A man must find his wife attractive. If a guy doesn’t think the girl is good-looking, he shouldn’t marry her.
Something once happened to a friend of mine from Yeshiva. He asked our Rosh Yeshiva for advice. he was dating a girl. The conversation was great, they were on the same page hashkafically, etc. He had one problem: he didn’t think she was good looking at all. As he told the Rosh Yeshiva, “I could probably talk to her on the phone for hours. Even in person, once the conversation gets going, it’s great. I just don’t like the way she looks!” The Rosh Yeshiva told him to end the shidduch. My friend asked, “Since when do we put such an emphasis on looks?” The Rosh Yeshiva told him that you must be attracted to your wife, or the marriage will never work.September 23, 2008 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #625311Mrs. LMember
Oh, but of course
he is the biggest masmid around, intends to stay in learning minimum 10 yrs. with full support.
Now that we clarified the matter about this gevaldige yireh shmayim, the bottom line is
He wants BEAUTIFUL, THIN, RICH. Just like in the goyish velt!September 23, 2008 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #625312000646Participant
I think its just that most guys arnt really attracted to big girlsSeptember 23, 2008 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #625313LeiderLeider…Participant
I truly do not intend to be crass or unsympathetic about this subject, but I don’t think it’s unfair for a boy to wish to marry what he considers a good-looking girl. And yes, the slimmer, the better (if this is something important to him, and if that is what he considers a factor in looks).
Does a girl have the moral right to decline to marry an otherwise perfect boy because he has an unsightly lump on his nose? The answer is a resounding yes! I think the boys are subject to the same moral equivalency. They have the moral right to turn down a girl who they deem too heavy for their liking.
Now, you do raise a valid point as to why ehrliche bochurim would care about looks etc. (or why ehriche girls would care about looks as well, for that matter). However, as long as our boys and girls are not trained to ignore looks as a factor in marriage, it would be unfair to expect anyone to look away and ignore this. After all, heavy girls (and boys) are not as physically attractive as their thinner counterparts, and we would be living in denial if we think otherwise.September 23, 2008 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #625314Mayan_DvashParticipant
Boys, girls please understand that skinny people tend to have problems or complications R”L during pregnancy (or trying to get there). (THe same is for grossly overweight people. Because everyone is different please find out from your physician what your weight should be.
Boys: see above and think long term as you are considering shidduchim. This is besides for the superficiality of the matter. The “looks” are anyway gone in a short amount of time.September 23, 2008 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #625315
I am wondering if it is the men who want the girl who is size zero or their mothers want this for them? I think most men do not find this ultra ULTRA thin look attractive at all. Yes, they do want someone slim. Unless they are chubby themselves, usually the boy wants a slim wife. The girls also are not interested in overweight men, unless they are heavy themselves.
Men AND women who are overweight, they should take care of their bodies not only just for shidduchim but for their general gazunt. People who are overweight can have serious health risks, such as high blood pressure, diabettes, and cancer (chas v’shalom). Let’s not let the shidduch crisis lead to an eating disorder crisis.September 23, 2008 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #625316yoshiMember
Sometimes when a girl is overweight, there are people who view them as someone who doesn’t take care of themselves, so how are they going to take care of a family? Now days skinny is supposably “in” and attractive, when some years back, having a little meat on a girl was the attractive “in” look. Some guys will define a girl who is a size 5 to be “too fat” while others see a girl at a size 10 and think she is at a perfect weight. Beauty is all relative.
We do have to define the difference between a girl who is a little “heavy” and very overweight to obese. It is not about hurting her feelings, it’s about being healthy and living to see her grandchildren. Diet is NOT always the answer. Learning how to eat healthy and properly and exercise, is the right choice. Nowadays there are “diets” that cater to that way of thinking. Plus, many people are not attractive to someone who doesn’t eat, or does extreme diets. They want to go to a restaurant and know the other party is enjoying themselves and not looking at the food as if it were the enemy.
I would have to say that guys are NOT attractive to anorexic looking girls either. A slim, toned, healthy looking girl is attractive to most people. Another thing to keep in mind, is the girl’s self esteem. A girl (or guy for that matter) who put themselves down all the time or can’t take a compliment, are not too fun to be around. I knew a beautiful girl going on a date, and the whole time the guy could not stop talking about how fat and ugly he was. She told me that she liked him and was attracted to him until he started acting in such a negative way.
We have to make sure that our daughters and sons are strong individuals, who have healthy self esteems. Usually if someone is leading a healthy lifestyle, they have a higher sense of self worth then those who are overweight or underweight.
outoftowner, I feel bad that people treated that girl in such a way. No one should have to settle on ANYONE when it comes to marriage. This is the person they are going to be with till they are 120. It’s a serious decision, we are not talking about what color shirt to buy, this is their lives.September 23, 2008 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #625317
just because girls that are heavy may not always be a fault of said girl, does in no way mean that a guy has to find that girl attractive. and to say that is a fault of guys is ridiculous. a man, genetically, has to find his mate attractive. a women doesnt have to be genetically heavy, (yes there are times that gemnetics plays a factor, but that isnt the point). to tell guys that they are foolish for not seeing past the heaviness of the wonderful personality that they are dating is akin to saying that when buying the house that has a roof that is half gone and a plumbing that is broken, well just you should look at teh wonderful community the house is in. now i am not saying that a heavy girl is broken. what i am saying is that men have certain criteria inorder for certain chemicals internally to activate. if a girl is heavy, and he is not into that, well then it is sheer stupidity to faulty teh guy. there are plenty of guys who do like heavier girls. just as there are guys who like blondes, brunettes and redheads. (ok noone really likes redheads 😉 ).
also the argument that skinny is just as unhealthy as heavy is ridiculous. there is a differance between skinny and anorexic, which most guys would find repulsive, probably more so then heaviness.
i hate always reading how guys should look past heaviness. its actually factualy impossible.
now if one wants to say that culture decides what is pretty, that has some truth in it, except thats not necesarily always true. some european cultures at times have found heavy women to be the attrictive ones, but that was not everywhere. asain, american (i mean the indigenous americans) and african countries have predominately found skinnier women to be attractive.September 23, 2008 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #625318
While I cannot change the boys, however, just wanted to share some thoughts on weight loss which may help. Dieting does not work, since people need to feel full and satiated. It is important to eat right, and also enjoy it. One needs to take into account how full a certain food makes you, but also how good it tastes. Calories and fat content are not the whole story. For instance, one might decide to eat better by munching on some boring cracker. One can eat and eat almost a whole box, and still not get a geshmack. However, possibly one donut may give one a geshmack and has much less calories than a whole box of crackers, even though officially the crackers are supposed to be healthier. That is because taste plays a major role.
In general, protein makes one feel very full, and this is also a big part of the enjoyment of food. Feeling full means one won’t get hungry for a long time. I just happened to look on a jar of Rokeach whitefish and pike gefilte fish, and each piece has only 50 calories. That means one can eat 4-5 pieces and feel stuffed, and yet only consume 250-300 calories. One will not even want to look at food for a long time after this. I find that eating a big breakfast, means I can skip lunch. Also, if you eat supper late then you won’t get hungry again at 10 or 11 pm, and start raiding the fridge. Try to eat as late as possible, then you will go to bed on a full stomach.
Vegetables are important lchol hadayos, so eat a lot of those. ALso rice seems to make people very full, and doesn’t have much sugar.
The big no-nos are ice-cream, milk shakes, chocolate or strawberry milk drinks, because these have tons of fat and sugar, but don’t fill you up at all. If I have delicious ice cream sundaes in front of me, I can easily eat 20 of them, since how would I know when to stop? I will still be hungry after all of them.
They say that fish is good for you, and also chicken, but red meat is not so good. Eat tuna packed in water, but don’t squeeze out all the water. This will make it taste good and moist wihtout too much mayo which has a lot of fat. On the other hand, low-fat mayo tastes horrible. Better to use a little regular mayo and enjoy, then the low-fat stuff, and still feel like you didn’t enjoy the meal. Same is true with many low-fat or lite foods and salad dressings.
You can get delicious chicken cutlets and nuggets from Of-Tov which only require a bit of microwaving for a good meal.
French Fries and potato chips have a lot of fat, and also don’t make you feel full. That is bad news. However, I am not against all carbs, and see nothing wrong with a bagel or two for breakfast. I am not totally against fat either, as a great dish can make you go a long way, whereas a more healthy dish can sometimes make you eat 10 of them without any real enjoyment from the meal.
For drinks, use 1% milk. They say to use skim, but it tastes horrible. 1% can taste as good as regular after you get used to it. However, for things like cream cheese, the low-fat stuff tastes terrible, and if you are only using a little as a spread on a bagel, might as well enjoy it and buy the regular. Same with butter, as long as you don’t overdo.For fleishigs, use 1/3 orange juice and 2/3 water. After a while you will get used to it, and it is not bad. Also cheaper, too. Diet drinks are controversial how much they help lose weight, and whether they are not safe. I think since they do not raise blood sugar, you end up eating more at the meal, and may not lose much weight in the end. Some may disagree. Regular sodas are terrible, as they are loaded with calories, and they use corn syrup as a sweetener, which I have read that the body does not recognize the calories from it as well, and you may drink a lot without feeling content
If you can get by with 2 meals a day, a big breakfast, and big supper close to bedtime, and not snack at all in between, that is the best thing.
Exercise is crucial. Not just going through the motions, but real heavy-duty continuous exercise. I prefer running. If you can do an hour straight 3 times a week, that is very good. It also curbs the appetite, and you also end up drinking more, and wanting food less. The best thing to drink is water, or the dilute OJ.
The name of the game is to eat so you feel full, not hungry all day, but no snacks or eating out of boredom or whatever. If you need an occasional candy bar, then at least get one with a wafer and nuts so it fills you up, and is not just pure chocolate. You have to know what you enjoy, because you will not be able to force yourself to diet and be hungry, or to eat very boring bland foods. You will then find yourself binging out totally out of control.
I am not a professional nutritionist, and am not the skinniest toothpick either, so I can relate to liking good food, but my weight is relatively decent. Just providing some advice that makes sense to me, and that I can mostly follow without cheating. I think that nutritionists need to better understand the tradeoffs between satiation, taste and calories per serving. It is not as simple as it seems.September 23, 2008 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #625319sesMember
joking or not, its comments like yours that put ideas into peoples heads.
i have 2 cousins in their mid 20’s , from mazing family, absolutely stunning, beautiful girls, perfect sizes, they could both model, they have one problem, they are redheads, and like your stupid comment, no one wants to date a redhead. .September 23, 2008 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #625320chaimsmomMember
People turn down shidduchim for all sorts of reasons which are beyond the control of the other person. Why should weight be any different?September 23, 2008 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #625321JosephParticipant
Reading many of the responses here to the original poster says a lot as to why we have a “shidduch crisis.”September 23, 2008 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #625322
What? Why wouldn’t anyone want to date a red head, that is so silly! Anyways she is going to cover her hair, in orthodox circles, she can become a blonde or brunette, who cares??? Actually,My husband finds red hair very attractive…I think the next shaitel is gonna be RED. I have red high lights though…September 23, 2008 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #625323lesschumrasParticipant
My wife is a redhead! ( and we’ve been married 37 years !!! )September 23, 2008 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #625324intellegentMember
It really is sad that boys will not date heavy girls. I know someone very well, who is very smart, has a really great personallity, is a huge balabuste and happens to be beautiful! She is heavy (not extremely but heavy) and I know she will have a hard time.
What mariner says is definitely true. I definitely agree that no one (from either gender) should marry anyone that they do not feel attracted to. However, the point is that not every boy would inherently not feel attracted to a heavy girl. This girl that I mentioned above, I think it is very possible that many boys would not have a problem with her weight if they would not come with preconceived notions. If all boys are told keep away from fat, they will keep away from fat!
So if a boy naturally is disgusted by the extra fat on a girl’s body or face, he should definitely stay away but it should not be because of his mother but because of HIM. I truly think that whoever gets this girl as a wife is really lucky!
It is not necessarily skinny people who can experience fertility problems. People with annorexia (nervosa) can have such problems. I know a girl who just got engaged and I keep hearing that the boy is tops tops tops. She is also tops tops tops. She is very smart, SLIM, well-dressed, frum, capable, talented etc. She has one problem. She is scared of food. I really believe that she has an eating disorder! I even convinced someone to call her mother to try to deal with it but i think the problem CAME from the mother. Anyway, I wish her well and hope she got over her problem or that she never had it and I just imagined it (but I don’t think so.)
P.S. The boy the second girl is engaged to was redt to the first girl. Not sure what happened to the shidduch…September 23, 2008 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #625325
ses and shindy, i have friends and relatives that will only date redheads. it is a joke, and alot of guys really do like redheads. it was a joke, as i specifically wrote, get over it. people have been making fun of redheads for hundreds of years, even sir arthur conan doyle had an episode of sherlock holmes just about that.
pashuteh yid, youre info is correct for the most part, though youre idea of 2 meals is no good. you are actyually supposed to eat 5 meals a day. all trainers and body builders do this. it is the best way to stay satiated, and not eat garbage. the meals are to be smaller, but still 5. i dont know the specifics how its done, but i know certain meals are just proteins, like chicken, and others should have carbs. but that has to come with exercise. i for one eat 5 meals a day, and dont excercise on bit, and am, lets say how they say in the shidduch circles, “athletically” built (which never made sense to me, as athletes are thin usually.)September 24, 2008 12:21 am at 12:21 am #625326
Mariner, I think 5 is way too many. I like to eat 2 huge meals, and feel really full for many hours. I am no expert, though, I just know what works for me, although I could probably lose a few pounds. I was only trying to give ideas on how to eat as little as possible without feeling hungry at all.
When I was young, I was quite skinny, but I noticed once they get married, almost all men put on some weight. I don’t know whether it is the wife’s cooking skills, (or maybe the lack thereof, which drives men to the cookie jar).
I think when you are young, you naturally move around more and have more energy which burns calories. When you get into the thirties and forties, you become more sluggish. That is why it is essential to force yourself to exercise. See the running thread for more info.
Some of my kids seem to be able to eat three meals a day of cookies, and not gain an ounce. This metabolism thing is quite a mystery.September 24, 2008 1:20 am at 1:20 am #625327chasid-of-HashemMember
somehow this is turning into a diet forum but another thing in regard to pashuta yids meal plans: you write that there is nothing wrong with a bagel or two for breakfast. ill tell you whats wrong; 1 bagel is equal to 4 slices of bread so a breakfast of two bagels (and whatever else is on the bagel) makes a whopping 8 slices of bread- and thats just breakfast!!!! talk about a carb overload!!September 24, 2008 2:15 am at 2:15 am #625328
What is going on in the world? Girls should not be treated as second class or “damaged goods” because they are a little heavier. Imagine going to school and being worried that your friend is anorexic… I know someone who was worried about a good friend of hers and actually looked to see if she ate lunch! There were many girls in that class who were boardering grossly underweight. Ok, to be a size two when you are 5 feet tall is one thing (skinny but not crazily underweight) but not when the girl is 5 foot 4… There are people I know who are “watching their weight” for shidduchim and are perfectly healthy, and even on the skinny side! This is an epidemic that rages across the frum community!
One more point- if girls watch their weight for shidduchim, what will happen once they get married? If they start eating normally, then they will gain tons of weight! By starving themselves (or dieting) for a while, once they start eating a normal amount they will gain a lot of weight!!! (the metabolism slows down)September 24, 2008 2:18 am at 2:18 am #625329JewessMember
You seem really frustrated with this situation. Sorry about that.
There are men who prefer heavier women but in today’s society being thin is associated with being healthy and that is generally considered more attractive.
Please don’t assume that all thin girls are emaciated or starving themselves. That’s just as rude as telling a heavy girl that she’s overeating.
I think that girls struggling with their weight should date guys that don’t necessarily want a thin girl because attraction in a marriage is so important. I would never want to be with a guy who’s not physically attracted to me and I hope you (or whomever you’re writing about) would not want to either. Looks are just as important as personality or anything else when in a relationship. Anybody who says it’s not is lying to themselves and their partner.
Good luck.September 24, 2008 5:40 am at 5:40 am #625330bein_hasdorimParticipant
outoftowner: although i feel for all these girls who have a hard time,
however i also feel for the boys who have the same problem.
Let me give you my take on this.
When i was dating i was looking
for a slim girl. I was absolutely not attracted to overweight
or even full girls. try as i may, i never found these girls
even remotely attractive.
You can’t expect people to ignore their obvious strong dislike to something,
or else we’ll have even a bigger Shidduch crises on our hands!!!
There is a long term health issue with overweight girls, & boys.
The following is the way i see it with overweight ppl,
If even when their dating & trying to impress their potential mate
1)being young & in their prime
2)knowing the hardships in Shiduchim w/ being overweight,
3)knowing the long term health risks of being overweight,
4)having time on their hands to diet, & exercise & not having to run a home,
they still can’t manage to lose the weight,
How do you expect them to ever lose the weight?
And is this person, who is not attracted to this girl,
supposed to marry her & suffer that, & potential health risks?????!!!!!
SERIOUSLY! I hope your spouse is overweight, cuz if not what
even gives you the right to suggest this approach
if you yourself wouldn’t do it?
Sorry for the tone, but what you expect is ridiculous!
i apologize if i offended any overweight people,
with my post, but this is the reality.September 24, 2008 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #625331
I would not turn down anyone because of their weight/size unless they were obese (which is a medical term meaning they have above a certain BMI-Body Mass Index)since at that point there are health risks. There are no health risks (besides for being a human being) that are associated with being a size 8 or 10 or 12! If they are an average height of 5′ 4ish and are a size zero- then I would be worried!!!!! Personally, I am on the smaller end of the spectrum but that is not from dieting or any other means of weight control. And I still belive that men should not turn down girls just for their weight. I understand that appearances are a factor, but does it have to be the main one (I wont go out with someone who is not a size 2 or less…) Furthermore, what about the fact that once the girls start to run a family they will not have time to go to the kosher gym ect and will gain weight? Is that a reason for divorce, since they are not attractive anymore? No, you will say. They will see beyond the externals and what really counts. So why cant we do that from the begining?September 24, 2008 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #625332yoshiMember
I don’t mean to go off topic, but people mentioned what amounts and how many times to eat that is considered “healthy”
Just know that breakfast SHOULD be your biggest meal of the day, and dinner should NOT be the biggest meal. Breakfast with a good combination of protein and fiber is the healthiest way to go, your breakfast is what jump starts your day. Studies have shown that most people who eat a good breakfast have less weight problems then people who skip breakfast. A lot of that has to do with the fact that if you starve yourself during the day, you will binge all night, and consume exuberant amount of calories. There is no reason to have a huge dinner (unless you have a race or something very physical the next day -there’s more to that, but doesn’t apply to this thread), you don’t need that many calories at night when you are sleeping. Just make sure you don’t let yourself go hungry (not boredom hunger, the REAL kind), when you deprive yourself of nutrients, your blood sugar can drop, and make you feel sluggish, tired, and sick.
p.s. I am not a member of a gym, but I still workout, you don’t need all that “special” equipment to keep in shape. just some good cross training/running shoes, and your own body weight to do exercises – (running, speed walking, several types of crunches, push ups, chin ups, pilates, etc.)September 24, 2008 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #625333
Thank you Yoshi for clarifying that!
Maybe we need nutrition classes in our schools, especially in the high schools.
I also dont mean to be off topic, but unhealthy weight is something that both men and women have an issue with, and maybe teaching important habits when they are younger will help curb obesity.September 25, 2008 2:35 am at 2:35 am #625334oomisParticipant
All these guys who are turning down shidduchim with girls who are larger than a size 2/4, often end up out of shape and a little chubby themselves. Plus they might find their hair thinning or go bald altogether. Are they such pictures of perfection themselves that they should be having such an attitude about women’s weight? People who love each other and want to truly build a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel, should look beyond externals. yes, there definitely needs to be an attraction, but perhaps it is time for us as a people to re-define what “the rules” dictate as being attractive and teach our kids to be less superficial and look for other more substantive qualities that attract them to someone.October 12, 2008 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #625335
we must forget about what should be and what could be and instead focus on what is.it is a fact that most guys will not date a heavy girl. any girl who is dating should make it a top priority to be thin. and people should stop complaining about this situation because it is not helping the girls or anyone else.October 12, 2008 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #625336
A young lady should not make it a priority to be THIN. She should make it a priority to eat well and exercise and be besimcha with herself because she feels SHE is worth it!!! I see plenty of skinny girls who are not finding their shidduch so easily either. Some men like a more full figured girl, they don’t want to give a hug to a bag of bones. Uch. Thank G-d my husband finds skinny women very unattractive.October 13, 2008 12:40 am at 12:40 am #625337shkoyachMember
Although I do feel for all the girls that are being turned down due to weight problems, I’m sure this is not what you want to hear but its ain’t just the weight problems! Hundreds of girls are being turned down because of other reasons such as divorced parents, or siblings of the D. Is it their fault??? other girls are turned down cuz their family is not chashuv or rich…. is it their fault?? How about out of town or just not “with the program” is that their fault? beacause they are from out of town or didnt go to a certain seminary or don’t/do have a degree… is it always their fault?!?!
Heavier girls are in it with every one else!! Sorry… don’t think you’re being singled out. It definitely doesn’t help but you know- Many not size 2 girls get married also.
Guys also first think that they want size 2 b/c it’s what they hear and think is attractive. But once they are maskim to go out with a not size 2 girl many times (not always) they actually realize the girl is a pretty girl anyway! I think we just gotta remove the boosha of “what will ppl say?! Oh No!” and as a society realize that meany times heavier girls are really geshmak too! many of them gorgeous also.
hatzlacha to everyone looking for shidduchim!! I really believe and hope that every one of us is davening everyday for all in this matter- those we know and those we don’t.
And for any shadchan that tells a girl or guy to lose weight for shidduchim… use some tact please! Some ppl have lost a lot more than you can comprehend before you even met them. It is apparently not as easy as just starving one self overnight and poof- weight sheds off.October 13, 2008 12:44 am at 12:44 am #625338
popa_bar_abba: the girls do not need to be “thin” per se. just “not fat”. there is a grave difference between the two. skinny is a size 0-4 (maybe 6) but up to a 10-12 is still not fat. of course it all depends on the build of the girl. but you are right when you say us guys will not change. and women telling guys that they are shallow is stupid, and doesnt help. it just hinders progress of a solution.
just as many, if not more, skinny girls are unmarried. all the older girls i tend to see unmarried, from 25 on up, are usually skinny or close to it. some are just unlucky if such a thing exists. others are stupid, and way too picky until it was too late.October 13, 2008 1:18 am at 1:18 am #625339InShidduchimMember
I COMPLETELY DISAGREe.
i am not a skinny girl at all. and i got married perfectly fine
marriage is great and my weight is not a factor at all.
i have personality and my hustband was zoche to look past it and liek me for who i am!!!!!!October 13, 2008 6:05 am at 6:05 am #625340bein_hasdorimParticipant
Nobody is born extremely obese,
they acheive that by overeating & not exercising daily.
People who are overweight, just get over it & please go
on a SERIOUS diet.
If not for shidduchim then for Hashem Yisborach
who says in the Torah “Ushmarted Me’od L’nafshoseichem”.October 13, 2008 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #625342tzippiMember
Re poppa bar etc.: No, our first priority has to be, what do our children need to build a bayis neeman. What do our children need to do to grow into the people who will build a bayis neeman. Understanding diet, nutrition and health may fall under the rubric. Concentrating on getting thin – THIN?!?!, not even slim??? – does not.October 13, 2008 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #625343tzippiMember
Re poppa bar etc.: No, our first priority has to be, what do our children need to build a bayis neeman. What do our children need to do to grow into the people who will build a bayis neeman. Understanding diet, nutrition and health may fall under the rubric. Concentrating on getting thin – THIN?!?!, not even slim??? – does not.October 13, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #625344muchcommonsenseMember
Shame on boys(or their parents) who put looks from the first 5 requirements on their list. (And I dont mean that you should take interesting looking girls- just the average size and look). LOOKS ARE NOTHING! It doesn’t make a marriage or break it. Doesnt make you happier at all.
There was a girl in my school that we all KNEW was the prettiest girl in the whole school- not just in the class- a real raving beauty. Everyone always spoke about her. She got married- what a lucky boy. Guess what? HE GOT BORED OF HER! Can you believe it? The prettiest girl around! Yes, he cheated on her! Nebach.October 13, 2008 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #625345
thank you mariner for understanding my point. btw i did not mean skinny as oppossed to slim (which one is skinnier?)October 13, 2008 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #625346dating guyMember
Poppa bar abba is really out of line. Perhaps he can be reported to YWN to be removed for posting innappropiate comments. The veil of anonymous posts is really doing klal yisrael in. At this dangerous time in the world that we live in, we should really be giving everyone a hug and a kiss.October 16, 2008 12:44 am at 12:44 am #625348
Muchcommonsense, while that is a sad story, and certainly could happen, one side point is that it has been my experience, and that of others, that very often when women rave about a particular girl’s looks, guys will unanimously think she is unattractive. I am not disagreeing with you that one must see the other qualities in a spouse, and looks alone are not the make or break of a marriage (usually kindness is), I am just pointing out that often women have no clue how guys perceive looks. It sometimes works both ways, a girls can be considered great-looking to guys, but think she is too fat, and go on a dangerous diet which turns into an eating disorder that makes her look emaciated, sickly and terrible, thinking that is what guys are looking for.
Women should never offer opinions on women’s looks, neither about themselves or others, as they are usually very poor judges. I believe that this is a major cause of eating disorders.October 17, 2008 2:13 am at 2:13 am #625350oomisParticipant
If not for shidduchim then for Hashem Yisborach
who says in the Torah “Ushmarted Me’od L’nafshoseichem”.
Then I assume that ALL the Yeshivah bochurim AND their rebbeim are also no longer smoking, are not sitting hunched over their Gemarahs for long periods of time (because it is VERY bad for both the circulation and the spine), and are exercising regularly so THEY do not become overweight due to their sedentary lifestyle. Also, re: looking attractive for their spouses, presumably they are also using Rogaine, so as not to go bald and thus be less attractive to their wives. Are they bathing regularly, and making sure their beards are not unkempt, that their shirts are tucked into their pants, and that they use deodorant regularly and brush their teeth?
EVERYONE needs to look out for their health, but not being a size two has nothing to do with health and has EVERYTHING to do with extreme shallowness and a non-Torahdig way of looking at one’s priorities of life.October 19, 2008 2:44 am at 2:44 am #625351reenmasheenMember
everyone should know that after you give everyone mussar about not thinking about weight when dating, people are still going to take it into consideration when making the shidduch and unfortunately these girls will just have to weight a little longerOctober 23, 2008 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #625354JosephParticipant
muchcommonsense: “Shame on boys(or their parents) who put looks from the first 5 requirements on their list. LOOKS ARE NOTHING! It doesn’t make a marriage or break it. Doesnt make you happier at all.”
Pashuteh: “…guys will unanimously think she is unattractive… Women should never offer opinions on women’s looks, neither about themselves or others, as they are usually very poor judges”
No one is “unanimously” unattractive. Everyone is attractive to someone. And neither should MEN “offer opinions on women’s looks” as they are only their own, and the next guy will have his own opinion on the matter (and it is his that matters.)October 23, 2008 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #625356
joseph: muchcommonsense’s comments was beautifully said? you have not a clue as to how reality works. many many many a marriage has been lost to one spouse losing physical interest in the other. speak to any frum family/divorce attorney. looks is actually one of the only things halachically permitted to be on a “list”. being heavy is actually preferable to some people. to say that a person should not be honest to what attracts him is useless. i do agree though at a point the guy is being stupid. but again, it is his prerogative. you may think putting looks on the top 5 is foolish, i think putting yichus is, and the other guy thinks putting family monetary value is, while a fourth thinks whether the guy has a beard or will learn in kollel for x many years is foolish. all are foolish, and all are legitimate. the criteria is that it should be an honest decision, and not one pushed on by parents!October 24, 2008 3:10 am at 3:10 am #625357
oomis- I am glad you were able to say clearly how there is a one-sidedness to this whole argument. Men can damage their health while women are forced to damage their physical wellbeing in order to look healthy (when they are sick!). So many girls get eating disorders as their parents, shadchanim, teachers, friends… are all obsessed with being thin and looking like a size 2! I know of a few girls who were suspected of eating disorders or had at least one. It is a sorry state for women to be in and if men would get their priorities straight maybe this can be stopped.October 24, 2008 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #625359feivelParticipant
“Nobody is born extremely obese,
they acheive that by overeating & not exercising daily.
People who are overweight, just get over it & please go
on a SERIOUS diet.”
there is clearly a quite powerful genetic component to obesity.
it existed in olden times of poverty as well.
Reb Eliezer ben Shimon was known to be massively obese.
it was said (although probably with some exaggeration), when he and another Godol (forgot his name) would stand facing each other a wagon could pass under the arch formed by their bellies. do you think they got that way because of eating desires and overeating?October 25, 2008 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #625361zevi8Member
The shidduch system is the problem. Why in the world do you need to find out everything about someone before you go on a date? The whole system is flawed. Its funny how i drive around lakewood and i see beautiful women with fat, ugly, unkempt men. What makes these men so special? These girls are just brought up to believe that a woman should go out and work 10 hours a day, support the family and pop out 12 kids while the man sits in yeshiva and learns. Oh yeah, thats a true jewish life.October 26, 2008 1:17 am at 1:17 am #625362
Zevi8: It is a bit hard to take you seriously after reading your posts on the PETA discussion where you make up alternative explanations of G-D’s allowing us to eat meat in order to justify your own crooked, non-torah, “morals”. Is the explanation of the sifsei chachamim not good enough? Are the practices of every gadol since Noah not good enough, that you declare yourself holier and eschew the “cruel, exploitative practice of eating meat.” (like say, the korban pesach) So excuse us if we don’t think you are right about this either. Or if we think you are an anti-torah, anti-chazal, anti-gedolim, cynic.October 26, 2008 1:53 am at 1:53 am #625363
You are a living example of why daas torah is so important. You are wrong from your opening sentence to your closing argument…..and you also happened by chance to completely miss the point. Seeing as it is right after yom kippur, I may grant that you will never want to face the truth, but I feel the need to point out your absurdity to anyone willing to face logic even if they don’t like it.
You begin by saying that “We have a big problem these days.” Really? We have a big problem these days? This is a new problem that just came up that you did not know about when your children were young and you gave them all kinds of candy at every opportunity? When you were young ugly people were pretty and let me guess the guys would only marry girls older than them. Right. OK.
And I quote your last point:
“I just don’t think it is right, and many times you should not judge a person at face value, by appearance alone, and if you look a little beyond surface deep you will find something beautiful you weren’t willing to give a chance before.”
You seem to feel that it is definitely true that just because a guy won’t marry her then it must be true that he is only looking “surface deep”. I would say that it is very possible that he knows all about the stuff under the surface and he’s not judging her at face value and if there was only one thing necessary in a marriage(that being “wonderful, beautiful, amazing girls, who have good middos, are tzanua, are pleasant, and sweet, who have good jobs, and looking forward to raising a family”)then he would marry her, BUT there are other things that might hold him back. Maybe she’s 44. Is that looking skin deep? Maybe she’s got no arms. Is that looking skin deep? Maybe she’s not jewish. Is that looking skin deep? Maybe she’s fat. Is that looking skin deep? Maybe she’s 22 but divorced with newborn triplets. Is that looking skin deep? Maybe she smokes like a trucker. Is that looking skin deep? Maybe a combination of the above. That doesn’t mean that she’s not “wonderful, beautiful, amazing girls, who have good middos, are tzanua, are pleasant, and sweet, who have good jobs, and looking forward to raising a family” It just means that the average guy is not going to marry her. ostrasized
Finally, you completely missed the point. We’re talking about a person’s life here. We’re talking about choosing a person to become a part of oneself to form a whole. Is someone expected to even consider thinking about how other people will feel about their decision? Should a person marry someone just to help a crisis? If you will answer yes, I suggest you insist that all fat girls and smoker boys should marry each other.October 26, 2008 6:02 am at 6:02 am #625364
torahls1: amen brother! but a question, if the smokers marry the fat girls, who marries the 22 divorcee with and triplets who has no legs?October 27, 2008 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #625365
torahls1- I have a real problem with your argument. Men did not have to start smoking. Some gedolim have said it is asur to start smoking. While he is guilty of following his temptations, the girl has nothing wrong with her. We are talking about a girl who is a size 6-8-10 instead of a 0-2-4 and that being her only fault (not missing limbs or being a divorcee with kids). There is a serious problem with wanting a 2/4 over a 6/8. Smoking is dangerous for those around the smoker, while being normal weight (sometimes the proper weight actually is a size 6-8). Why do you state that the male smokers are victims when they are at fault for starting? Why do you state that they are not at fault? They are the ones who put that first cigarette into their mouths. They did not have to! I know someone who quit after smoking for decades. Smoking is a death warning, while being a size 12 isnt! When doctors warn about the dangers of obesity, they are referring to size 18-20-26+ !!! Size 8 is NOT Obese (unless the girl is 4 feet tall. Then she would be. but then the men would complain that she’s short and wont marry her for both reasons.) Stop caring about a size 2-4 is all this thread was about. Not that all men should marry obese women.
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