October 3, 2010 1:20 am at 1:20 am #699100
If you are talking about what the family does, how can you ask that question?
If my siblings will not accept not to attend a conservative shul, why should someone want to marry me? I don’t understand.
Maybe you can clarify your comment.October 3, 2010 2:05 am at 2:05 am #699101an ideaParticipant
Heres another angle to understand where people are coming from: Consider a prospective shidduch where the boy/ girl is coming from a broken home but didn’t negatively affect the child. As we all know the first few years of marriage the parents of the children are heavily involved and the newlywed has to become aclimated to a not-so-ideal family situation. Shouldn’t that be a concern for a parent with a child in shidduchim? Simmilarily, a parent is concerned about their child becoming aclimated with non-religious relatives etc. I think thats very understandableOctober 3, 2010 2:27 am at 2:27 am #699102
If an FFB marries a BT;
then after the wedding, is the BT prepared to:
1) Not attend “conservative” or “reform” weddings, bar-mitzvahs, and bas-mitzvahs, etc. made by the BT’s non-Frum family (as their “rabbis” (and especially “gay” or women rabbis) are not rabbis, a double-ring ceremony is not a Jewish ceremony, and there is mixed seating and immodest dress and men and women dancing together to non-Jewish music), etc.) ?
2) Not attend C”V the marriage of a Jew to a non-Jew, if someone in the BT’s non-Frum family decides to C”V marry a non-Jew?
3) Not enter a “conservative” or “reform” temple, if that’s where the BT’s non-Frum family prays?
4) Not eat in a BT’s non-Frum family’s non-Kosher home?
5) Insist that that the BT’s non-Frum family dress and behave according to the Torah’s standards of Tznius, when the BT and his/her FFB spouse make a Seudas Mitzvah (wedding, bar-mitzvah, etc.) ?
So is the BT prepared to do all of the above?
If not, why should an FFB want to marry you?
That’s as clear as I can make it.October 3, 2010 3:18 am at 3:18 am #699105
Now, if these things you describe are indeed assur, then I don’t think anyone who really is a BT would do them. As I previously stated, the term BT is usually used to describe someone who keeps halacha.
I am really not convinced that all of them are assur.
1. You are allowed to attend a conservative wedding.
2. I don’t know if you can attend an intermarriage, (but again, let’s assume the BT will follow halacha).
3. One cannot daven in a conservative temple, but BTs don’t attend their non-frum family’s temple.
4. One is allowed to eat kosher food in a house where not kosher food is eaten.
5. I am not aware that it is assur to invite a relative to a simcha if they will dress untznius. In any event, the relatives are usually willing to “do in Rome”.
Why do you assume that BTs will do things which are assur?
What do you picture when you think BT?
I am finding this discussion somewhat troubling.October 3, 2010 3:33 am at 3:33 am #699106
1. Most simchas are in shul. You can’t enter their temples.
2. Maybe the BT will want to attend being they don’t think it’s ossur.
5. A lot of the relatives don’t care what they “do in Rome”.
What do you find troubling about this discussion?October 3, 2010 3:53 am at 3:53 am #699107
1) Why are you allowed to attend a “Conservative” wedding, performed by a “rabbi” who is not a “rabbi,” (and especially if it’s a gay or woman “rabbi”), where a double-ring ceremony is not a Jewish ceremony, and there is mixed seating and immodest dress and men and women dancing together to non-Jewish music), etc.) ?
“Conservative” is not Judaism, any more than “Reform” is; they both incorporate violations of the Torah into their “religion.”
2) Of course you can’t attend an intermarriage. Intermarriage is a violation of the Torah.
5) Tznius is a Mitzvah, just as keeping Kosher is a Mitzvah, and and keeping Shabbos is a Mitzvah. If the Frum relatives (the BT and his/her FFB spouse) will ask the non-Frum relatives to come to a Seudas Mitzvah, dressed according to the laws of Tznius; then the non-Frum women relatives should not show up at the Seudas Mitzvah, wearing a sleeveless or strapless short dress, above the knees, or pants.
I’m not saying that that BT’s will do something that is Assur.
I’m asking if BT’s who want to marry FFB’s, will not, after the wedding, participate with the non-Frum family in things that the non-Frum family are doing, that are Assur by the Torah.
Please also read the posts by oomis1105 to see what I’m talking about. Many times, there is pressure by the non-Frum family to participate with them in events that are Assur; otherwise, the BT and his/her FFB spouse are considered “religious fanatics.” This is something that an FFB with Frum family on both sides of the family doesn’t have to deal with. Can the BT resist this pressure?
Obviously, I’m not making myself completely clear.
Is there someone else who has been following this thread, who can explain better than I’m doing, to popa_bar_abba, what I’m talking about?
Thank you, Health, for the additional clarifying comments. I greatly appreciate them.October 3, 2010 3:58 am at 3:58 am #699108
Health: I find troubling the assumption that BTs don’t keep halacha and don’t ask shaalos.
This represents a very xenophobic view.October 3, 2010 4:09 am at 4:09 am #699109frumladygitMember
mw13 : In response to your comment as follows : “As a Monsey resident, I can tell you that the neighborhood that has the biggest “bum crisis”, as you put it, has the most BTs. I’m sorry if this theory offends you, but I’m fairly certain it’s real”
Either you’re unknowledgeable or just plain ignorant but the facts are that places like Lakewood has one of the biggest drug and alcohol problem amongnst their bocherim. But Just like other problems its swept under the table. And Lakewood is not a camp of BT’s.
By the way, just out of curiosity, which shetls/cities are you referring which are made up of the BT’s whose kids are at risk or already going off the derech? I am not aware that BT’s congregated together for making statistics such as what you’re coming up with.October 3, 2010 4:10 am at 4:10 am #699110
frumladygit: And where did you find your bubbe maisa statistics regarding Lakewood and the “biggest” drug and alcohol problem? Clearly your ignorance of the facts resulted in that libel.
Anonym613: Another reason you cannot attend a non-Orthodox wedding, in addition to the reasons enumerated earlier in the thread, in the inevitable lack of tznius that will take place at the event.October 3, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #699111
“Health: I find troubling the assumption that BTs don’t keep halacha and don’t ask shaalos. This represents a very xenophobic view.”
Nobody said that BT’s, as a group, don’t keep Halacha and don’t ask Shaalos.
But some BT’s may find it difficult not to continue to participate with the “Simchas” of the non-Frum family.
I know of a case of an FFB who is married to a BT who is “Modern Orthodox” Frum; but he still wants to attend the “Simchas” of the Reform non-Frum family, even if he doesn’t participate in them.
The BT’s mother is also a BT, and she davens in a Young Israel and even wears a short Sheitel; yet, when 2 of her nephews R”L married non-Jewesses, she attended the weddings, because “it’s family; it’s my brothers’ children.”
This is very troubling to the FFB spouse.October 3, 2010 5:09 am at 5:09 am #699112mw13Participant
“Either you’re unknowledgeable or just plain ignorant”
Wow, what a intelligent, impartial statement…
“By the way, just out of curiosity, which shetls/cities are you referring which are made up of the BT’s whose kids are at risk or already going off the derech? I am not aware that BT’s congregated together for making statistics such as what you’re coming up with.”
As I explained before, I see this to be true in BT heavy neighborhoods in Monsey. Also, it stands to reason: if people can have their parenting abilities impaired by growing up in aa emotionally dysfunctional home, why shouldn’t the same apply to a spiritually dysfunctional home?
“making statistics such as what you’re coming up with”
As Ben Torah pointed out, somehow I doubt your statistics are rock-solid either…October 3, 2010 5:20 am at 5:20 am #699113Midwest2Participant
For those who find BT involvement with their non-frum families to be problematic –
In most cases what you find unacceptable or shocking is something that has probably been brought to a Rav for advice as to what can or can’t be done. Most BT’s I know have a Rov who is knowledgeable about these issues. In many cases the Rov permits, for the sake of keeping good-will in the family, participation that would not be permitted in other circumstances. A BT going to a sibling’s wedding in a Conservative synagogue is not in the same ball-park as you, an FFB, going to your second cousin’s wedding in the same place.
The question here is one of maar’as ayin – yes it looks fishy. But the real issue is dan l’chaf z’chus. Assume that the question was taken to a Rav and his advice followed. If you’re not a BT, you have no idea the conflicts and heart-break that some go through in order to be shomer Torah u’mitzvos despite misunderstanding and even outright oppostion from their families. Ask yourself if you could pursue your own course when every single member of your family thought you were crazy? Those of us who don’t have to go through this diplomatic nightmare should be grateful, and give the BT credit for his/her choices and fortitude.October 3, 2010 5:58 am at 5:58 am #699114
Midwest -Thank you for posting. You just proved our point. If you marry a BT -they might do things which you as a FFB might feel uncomfortable doing, even if they have a heter to do it.October 3, 2010 6:49 am at 6:49 am #699115SacrilegeMember
There is no reason for the mudslinging going on here.
I doubt any of the “statistics” brought up here were factually sound in which case, leads to gross amounts of Loshon Hora and Motzei Shem Ra not only about groups of people but whole communities as well.
I’d imagine the point of this thread was to make the public aware of a wonderful group of boys/girls that were being over-looked due in part to the ignorance and or close-mindedness of some members of the Klal.
I dont see how or why this had to become a smear campaign against ANY group of individuals.October 3, 2010 6:55 am at 6:55 am #699116cvParticipant
My daughter became BT when she was 12 yo and I followed her. B”H she is married and have large family. Most of our relatives (including my daughter’s in-law) sencirely believe
that me, my daughter and son-in-law are crazy, because we are observant. And, of course, most of our relatives feel very sorry for my grandchildren, who have crazy parents and grandmother. Most of our relatives do not communicate with us, do not participate in our simchas (last simcha I so my relatives was my daughter’s wedding – relatives came out of curiosity), I’m only one who buy raffle tickets from my grands yeshivah, I’m the only one who help to pay tuition. This list can go on and on. But I think we are very lucky. If on a top of the situation we have my daughter was married to FFB and her in-law were treaded her as second quality person, it will be even worse.October 3, 2010 6:59 am at 6:59 am #699117
In certain situations, it’s sometimes better to be closed-minded.October 3, 2010 10:18 am at 10:18 am #699118
As I wrote above, I give BT’s 100% credit and admire them for deciding to become Torah-observant Jews; I’m not denigrating BT’s.
I’m sure that it’s not easy for them to become Frum, especially if they have to deal with opposition from their families.
All I’m saying is that some BT’s want to marry only FFB’s and not other BT’s, and some FFB’s hesitate to marry BT’s because of the issues with the BT’s non-Frum families, unless the BT stops participating with the non-Frum families’ “Simchas.”
I would be curious to know who is the Rov who permits a BT to attend a “Conservative” wedding (to keep family good-will), where there are so many violations of the Torah; as the Conservative “rabbis” (and especially “gay” or women rabbis) are not rabbis, a double-ring ceremony is not a Jewish ceremony, and there is mixed seating and immodest dress and men and women dancing together to non-Jewish music), etc.) ?October 3, 2010 10:57 am at 10:57 am #699119emoticon613Member
people – i think there’s no reason for this conversation. meaning:
1) a lot of what’s being said can be VERY VERY hurtful to readers. really. how do you think a ger/giyores or a child of one feels when he sees “are you prepared to marry a ger.”
2)many FFB’s also have not frum relatives, at least nowadays. and therefore have to deal with family issues anyway.
3)it’s all irrevelevant anyway, being that Hashem makes shidduchim, and what will happen will be what will happen in any case, no matter what we do or don’t do to remedy or ruin the situation.
4) i’m a child of a BT and a giyores. having said that – chavivin yesurin, as rabbi akiva says. it’s a kappara for avonos every time s/o throws another barb at you for being ‘less than quality.’
for the complaint part of this – as of now i haven’t seen anyone for like ten months now, and you know what? i’m not even old. so there.
(chavivin yissurin – i shouldn’t complain 🙂 )October 3, 2010 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #699120tzippiMember
Anidea: I don’t understand your premise. If a child of divorced parents is emotionally healthy because of how things were handled (understanding it does take some time to get to this place) – the parents are each basically decent people and got their acts together and were determined to work together in the best interests of the children – why should it be a problem if they are involved in their kids’ lives?
Now if you’re talking about someone who is emotionally healthy not because of how things were handled but in spite of, I understand such concerns. If my kid was offered such a shidduch but was young, and might have to deal with some hairy situations, I would say, this might be the right one but not the right time. But a mature young adult who could handle this, with the proposed shidduch having the tools to deal with this, not necessarily a problem.October 3, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #699121
tzippy -while it’s true that mature people can handle problems in life more than younger people, it doesn’t mean that all will come out with flying colors. There is a reason EVERYONE says everyday -“Al tovoe leday nisayon”.October 3, 2010 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #699122Sister BearMember
Wow! First of all this thread is about Shidduchim for kids of BT’s not marrying BT’s themselves.
Second of all if you don’t want to marry a BT, fine don’t but BT’s are not 2nd rate citizens.
3rd of all if you anyways are talking about all the hardships that marrying a BT involves, why don’t you actually ask someone who is married to one and is involved themselves. And if you don’t want to live that kind of life, then don’t, no one is forcing you.
4th – for those who said BT kids go off more than FFB kids. I would think that is not true. Of all the kids I know that are OTD, they come from FFB homes and I don’t know one kid from a BT who is off. If a kid has a question about Torah and G-d and anything, the BT asked it and knows the answers so can give them to their kids. Whereas in a FFB home the parents for the most part probably don’t know the answers and yell at the kid for asking.
And I agree with emoticon613 – some of those comments that people made are hurtful. Their is no point in saying them.October 3, 2010 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #699123
Sis Bear -“3rd of all if you anyways are talking about all the hardships that marrying a BT involves, why don’t you actually ask someone who is married to one and is involved themselves, etc.”
Maybe some of the posters here are actually talking from experience!October 3, 2010 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #699124charliehallParticipant
Popa is right; there are rabbis who are meikel for some of the things on your list in the interest of shalom bayit. If you are a posek, you must break your anonymity and identify yourself.October 3, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #699125The Big OneParticipant
“If you are a posek, you must break your anonymity and identify yourself.”
But you should also be demanding who the posek is who “matirs” all that stuff, whenever anyone here (or on any thread) claims their anonymous posek says its okay.October 3, 2010 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #699126
I am not a Posek. I am an FFB married to a BT, as is oomis1105, so I’ve had to deal with issues regarding non-Frum family.
As The Big One said; if “there are rabbis who are meikel for some of the things on your list in the interest of shalom bayit,” shouldn’t they be identified, in the interest of fairness?
What are the names of these Poskim who are meikel?
Are they meikil to attend a non-Frum wedding? Are they meikel to attend an intermarriage? What are they meikel?October 3, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #699127
Does your flipping the question back to us imply that you did not have a source for those halachos?
That is fine, but halachos which are not sourced should be identified as such.October 3, 2010 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #699128The Big OneParticipant
popa, the burden of proof ought to rest on those who say there is a heter for what is normally assur.October 3, 2010 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #699129MoqMember
Big One – what does the phrase “normally assur” mean? Does it mean that you havn’t done it – or your community? Does that mean that anything your community hasn’t done is prohibited until proved otherwise? Cute. But not Halacha. Respect the Halacha. Halacha only respects reason. Not emotions.
1- Entering a conservative temple; can anybody make a reasonable argument that such a thing would be prohibited? Remember, we need an actually issur, d’orayasah or d’rabban. Not ” mamish avadeh”. My Shulchan Aruch is missing that chelek. Beis Minus? Maybe. Avraham Yehoshua Heschel was certainly an apikporus, as were other conservative leaders. But they are not worshiping another god. They deny Torah principles, which may be Kefirah – but is not worse then a university – certainly one could enter. I believe it is permitted, though should only be done when there are no other options.
2- Attending an intermarriage – I could hear it being forbidden; you are joining a celebration, and by definition celebrating, a horrible issur (even more then an issur, an opting out of khal yisrael).
3-An event which is not tzinius. Yes, we all must avoid nisyonos shemiras einayim. But to attend an event which has immodest people there is categorically permissible, if the event is unique ( hopefully your brother will not have a second marriage), under the principle of Lekeh Darka Acharina, and then Shemiras Einyanim is obligatory. Business people rely on this everyday.
And if a not-yet-frum relative is marrying Jewish, it should be strongly celebrated and encouraged.
And hopefully, if you are clever, you can invalidate the marriage halachiclly (get two brothers to witnesses, whatever) and save Khal Yisrael some mamzerim if things don’t work out. Offer to officiate.
4- Eating in a non-kosher home – with mutual respect, disposable goods, saran wrap & silver foil, you can easily prepare a kosher meal in a treif kitchen. Ever eat airplane food?
5-Insisting on tzinius – would you pasul a FFB with non-frum relatives?
PS: Two ring kiddushin is a machlokes haposkim.
Any other great, horrible, issurim? After all, us FFBs have a flawless marriage record. I think BTs have added a lot to khal yisrael, besides for the tremendous kiddush hashemOctober 3, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #699130
Yes, Popa. It looks like you’re flipping the question back to me, also. (Thank you, The Big One.)
What I posted here about Judaism is what was taught to me in Yeshiva.
The violations of Judaism which occur at non-Frum events are Giluy Aroyos (e.g. immodest dressing, and men and women dancing together, and to non-Jewish music), which is forbidden by the Torah. Also, their “Rabbis” are the “Rabbis” of a religion that violates the Torah. (gay/women Rabbis; double-ring ceremonies; not necessary to keep Kashrus, Shabbos, Taharas HaMishpacha, and Tznius; ok to practice homosexuality; ok to marry a non-Jew; as long as one parent is Jewish, the child is Jewish, even if it’s not the mother. All of these are acceptable in non-Orthodox religions.)
Are there any Torah-observant Jews here who believe otherwise?
I am an FFB married to a BT, as is oomis1105, so I’m experienced with dealing with non-Frum family.
For one example, one of my in-laws, A”H, once got annoyed with me, in the middle of the year of Avaylus for one of my parents, A”H, because I wouldn’t attend the in-law’s non-Frum sibling’s 70th birthday party with music and mixed dancing in the basement of a Reform temple.
Besides the Giluy Aroyos issue, and the Reform temple issue, evidently my year of mourning for my parent, which is the last Kibud that I could give my parent, did not count.
Another example: When one of the Reform nephews got engaged to a non-Jewess, we were asked to attend the engagement party.
I asked, “Is the bride Jewish?”
Answer from in-law: “No, but she’s a very nice girl.”
So my BT spouse and I refused to attend either engagement party or wedding, and we sent no gifts, and also no gifts when a child was born.
These are just 2 examples.
So I’ve been there.
So again, who are these anonymous Rabbis who are meikel for BT’s in the interest of Sholom Bayis, and what are they meikel?October 3, 2010 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #699131
I am not denigrating BT’s. I think that it’s wonderful of BT’s to leave their previous lifestyle behind and embrace a Frum lifestyle. Kol HaKavod to them.
All I’m saying is that as an FFB who’s married to a BT, who’s been through the experience of dealing with non-Frum family,
I can now understand an FFB’s hesitancy to go out with or marry a BT, due to issues of dealing with non-Frum family.October 3, 2010 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #699133MoqMember
Of course giluy arayos is forbidden. Attending such a wedding was what I was addressing. Many people do many forbidden things – the question is, what is your issur?
And of course practically, certainly there are difficulties. I was talking about Halacha. Many frum people have irreligious relatives as well.
Certainly, a Baal teshuvah can me more lenient in certain situations, as the shaas hadachak can be described differently. I cannot quote a Rav as we are not speaking about a specific case, but anyone in the world of Halacha knows that being a Baal Teshuvah is a major factor in many shaalos.October 3, 2010 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #699134
Regarding entering a Reform or Conservative Church, see Igros Moshe O.C. 2:40 and Igros Moshe O.C. 3:25.
Regarding tznius, it should be made absolutely clear that a frum or non frum relative or guest (of either a FFB or BT) is not welcome at a Simcha unless completely dressed per Hilchos Tznius.
Regarding attending an event of a non-frum person, if there is mixed dancing, amongst other issurim (i.e. tznius), it would be prohibited.October 3, 2010 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #699135
Please see Declaration of Union of Orthodox Rabbis on Reform and Conservative Judaism:October 3, 2010 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #699136
Having not followed this thread up till now, and not having the patience to read 80+ posts, pardon me if I’m repeating things that have already been stated.
It is permissible to attend a simcha (between 2 Jews only, intermarriage is assur, period, end of story) in a non-Orthodox venue. I’ve called up many caterers after being told by the non-frum hosts that “it’s kosher” to ask whose supervision they’re under. And if it’s not acceptable, I can eat before or after, and just have a coke while there. Avoid the synagogue’s sanctuary, the rest of the building isn’t assur. As a family of many yeshivish cousins, we wait in the lobby while “services” are going on, and then join them in the simcha room. Obviously, if it’s on a Shabbos, skip it all together with a polite “I don’t want to ruin your fun with my restrictions”. That statement works like a charm!
Now, back to the original question about marrying kids of BT’s – I think that’s very neighborhood specific. There are communities like Passaic, Far Rockaway and Kew Gardens Hills that have a true mix of BT’s and FFB’s, and no one really knows who falls into which camp unless they know the people more intimately. And B”H, there are plenty of marriages between both. So perhaps you might want to try to hook up with shadduchins outside of Brooklyn.October 3, 2010 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #699137QuestionForYouParticipant
1) Why is it permissible to attend a Simcha in a non-Orthodox venue? Because the Kashrus supervision is one that you accept?
2) If you’re Yeshivish, what do the men in your group do in the Simcha room when the dancing starts? Sit with their backs to the dancing?October 3, 2010 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #699138
What’s the likelihood of a non-frum (especially anti-religious, but even if not so) person using a truly kosher caterer — especially considering kosher costs much more — for an event?
Very unlikely.October 4, 2010 12:05 am at 12:05 am #699139
Ben Torah: It is clear that you have not had much experience with this. It is very very likely for non-frum people, to use a kosher caterer –
1. Especially near a frum community,
2. Especially if they have frum family or friends that they want to eat there
3. And Especially if the caterer has delicious food and is not way more expensive.
Also, I know many non-frum people, who while they won’t keep kosher, they won’t eat pork or shellfish either, and they have a certain amount of guilt that they assuage by buying kosher when they have a choice.October 4, 2010 12:09 am at 12:09 am #699140
Yeah, but I doubt its chasidesha shechita, so you still have a problem.
(That’s a joke, btw.)
Seriously, even if a non-frum person used a “kosher” food vendor, theres the possibility the vendor’s kashrus certification is not up to par.October 4, 2010 12:28 am at 12:28 am #699141
That’s true, but hopefully they would ask the frum person they want to invite which caterer to use (as my relatives have)October 4, 2010 12:47 am at 12:47 am #699142
It’s certainly easy enough to verify whether or not a venue’s certification is up-to-date. Just call whoever they say they’re under. For example, if they say they’re under one of the Vaad’s, ask a Rav in that Vaad to check it out, or call the Vaad.
Maybe people who have more contact with the non-frum world are more sensitive to dealing with non-frum people, be they friends or family. So, Mr. QuestionForYou, looking at that from the perspective of someone who’s very involved with kiruv, I see opportunities to show that the frum family isn’t stuck up, as many NYF perceive them to be. How hard is it to wish someone a Mazel Tov and be mentsch? I recently made a rather long trip to wish a non-frum couple a mazel tov at their engagement party. ANd you know what? The kallah asked me to help her with the Jewish aspects of the wedding ceremony and recommend a book for her to read. That’s a beautiful encounter, that can’t happen if we always think everyone who doesn’t wear exactly the same type hat as us isn’t good enough to stand in the same room with.October 4, 2010 1:10 am at 1:10 am #699143QuestionForYouParticipant
Nobody said that “the frum family is stuck up, and that everyone who doesn’t wear exactly the same type hat as us isn’t good enough to stand in the same room with.”
You didn’t answer my questions.
1) Why is it permissible to attend a Simcha in a non-Orthodox venue, according to Halacha?
2) As “a family of many Yeshivish cousins,” which you write above that you are (and you do use the word Yeshivish);
then when you’re at a non-Orthodox Simcha;
how do you handle the men in your group not watching the women dance at the Simcha, without a Mechitza to maintain Tznius (which is why I asked if the men in your group sit with their backs to the dancing);
and how do you handle the mixed dancing at the Simcha? Do you join in the mixed dancing?October 4, 2010 2:11 am at 2:11 am #699144m_sMember
I am personally involved with The Rebbetzins program, and we most definitely work with children of Baalei Teshuva. Although some do indeed have parents helping them out, not all do; sometimes Baalei Teshuva do not fully integrate into the frum community even after decades of being religious, so their ability to network for their children’s shidduchim (in terms of friends and extended family) is limited. The Rebbetzins can be reached by phone at (877) REB-BETZ, or by email at [email protected]. The program is free of charge and currently assists those in the age bracket of 18-30.October 4, 2010 2:49 am at 2:49 am #699145oomisParticipant
“For one example, one of my in-laws, A”H, once got annoyed with me, in the middle of the year of Avaylus for one of my parents, A”H, because I wouldn’t attend the in-law’s non-Frum sibling’s 70th birthday party with music and mixed dancing in the basement of a Reform temple. “
This happened to me, too, and it was very awkward, to say the least, but we explained to the best of our ability why I could not go with my husband.
Even more difficult was the time I invited a very close family member of my husband to our home for a special dinner, and he went on and on on how stupid we were not to even TRY lobster, as it was SO good. I told him that even if my religious beliefs did not forbid it, I would never put something that looks like a giant cockroach in my mouth, but that it made no difference, it was forbidden by Jewish law. Period. I never invited him over again, btw.October 4, 2010 3:12 am at 3:12 am #699146
OK, I am definitely not a posuk, in fact, I’m a woman who isn’t even a Rebbetzin, but I’ll take a shot at your questions.
1. Why ISN’T it permissible to attend the simcha? Just avoid the sanctuary, which is where we’re forbidden to go, not necessarily the simcha room. I know of many Orthodox couples who in years past got married in conservative shuls. It was commonplace up until the ’90’s in some communities.
2. What do the cousins do during the dancing? Yes, some turn their backs, but to be honest, I’ve never paid it much attention, and we’re generally seated pretty far away from the dance floor. Of course, it’s one of the rare opportunities that the frum cousins get to have mixed seating LOL. But none of us join in the “obligatory Hava Nagilla” set.October 4, 2010 3:21 am at 3:21 am #699147
Questions for you: What my father has done, is get involved in a convo with a man at the table, and put his back to the dancing. If asked to join in, he has to “check his cell phone to see if he just got a call.”
Also, he doesn’t stay the whole time, tries to come for the important parts, and lengthy dancing usually is something that you can be yotzei by sitting on the side, with ur back to the dancing, or dancing with men.October 4, 2010 3:45 am at 3:45 am #699148
It isn’t hard to sit out the dancing. Plenty of people do it at frum weddings too.October 4, 2010 3:49 am at 3:49 am #699149myfriendMember
The problem is even seeing the mixed dancing or improperly clad women.October 4, 2010 9:23 am at 9:23 am #699150
myfriend: so you sit with your back to it. as for improperly clad women, that’s anytime you step outside, unless you live in New Square or something.October 4, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #699151oomisParticipant
“1. Why ISN’T it permissible to attend the simcha? Just avoid the sanctuary, which is where we’re forbidden to go, not necessarily the simcha room. I know of many Orthodox couples who in years past got married in conservative shuls. It was commonplace up until the ’90’s “
Realistically, it is only a “Conservative Sanctuary” when men and women are physically davening together in it. At a chasunah, that is highly unlikely to happen, and it really is no different from any other shul in that moment. Is it assur to daven in a Conservative Shul when there are NO women present?October 5, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #699153
pascha bchochma, you’re absolutely correct. And especially when the weather is warm.
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