ShidduchimóGirls are Shallow

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  • #591559
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    How many guys do you know who leave yeshiva shortly after getting married. I am in yeshiva and have seen many. It is well known that it is extremely difficult to get a shidduch of the same level of religiosity once one leaves yeshiva. This is very detrimental to those guys who should be leaving yeshiva, as they are pressured to stay and often waste their time instead of moving on in life.

    Do you girls just need to be able to tell your friends at the vort what yeshiva your chosson goes to? If you are willing to marry a guy leaving yeshiva in 2 months, what is the difference if he left 2 months ago?

    Not to minimize other problems, but I don’t think the girls should be complaining so loudly about the guys’ shallowness regarding weight or the shidduch crisis until they get their own house in order. Maybe the shidduch crisis people are right; girls shouldn’t date until they are adults.

    EDITED

    #1134552
    tzippi
    Member

    Interesting about the girls waiting to date till they’re adults.

    What do you propose the BOYS will offer? What’s in it for the girls?

    #1134553
    bpt
    Participant

    I’m sort of on the same page as PBA, only I think what happens is the minute the $ gets tight (or there is the slightest hint that the promised “ois-halt” is not as rock solid as originaly thought) the happy couple comes to terms with the new reality and starts shifting from “full time learning” to a job in the morning or afternoon a few days a week, to a few more days a week, and before you know it, he is working full time, but still under the banner of “still learning”. With many jobs today not requiring 9-5 in NYC, you can “work” yet not attract unwanted attention.

    As far as the “what will my friends / neighbors say” syndrome, that’s something I’m working real hard to eradicate from the globe, but so far, no luck.

    As far as Tzippi’s comment, there I absolutly agree. The promised “ois-halt” should be based on what the boys “3 years time” earnings potential is. So for example, if the boy’s father is a lawyer or some other sort of proffesional, that makes $100,000 per year, then its reasonable to assume that the son will make 20% of that when he enters the job market 3 years after the wedding. After all, he needs some experience, so 20-25k is a fair start.

    That being the case, the MAX a boy like this should get as a “sign-up” pacakge is the projected 3 years starting salary (or $600 – $700 / mo, 3 years cap).

    If a boy’s estimated adult earnings (again, based on what is father currently makes) is closer to $50,000, than the “choson package” should be %20 of that $275 / mo, with a 3 year cap)

    Not everyone is smart enough or ambitious enough to strike it really rich. So not every choson should get the same starting package. Is he a winner? Let him prove himself. I would love to have my neighbors car.. if I can afford it. If not, tough.

    Why should a choson be any different? (and no, I do not have girls… I have boys only, so I CAN talk)

    #1134554
    AZ
    Participant

    Simple Basic Market Economics

    #1134555
    oomis
    Participant

    This is all very bothersome to me. What is the father of several daughters supposed to do? What is the father who is NOT making a wonderful parnasssah supposed to do? What is young couple who think that mommy and daddy are made of gold, supposed to do? (That part is easy – they BOTH have to work to earn a living. Rabbi Yochanan made sandals. I doubt anyone thought less of him for it.) For the sake of the young couple’s maturity and growth, they should have a better plan. And we as parents have to stop infantilizing our kids by refusing to let them grow into responsible citizens who both contribute to society (WHILE AT THE SAME TIME making time to learn).

    #1134556
    tzippi
    Member

    Let me clarify what I meant by what’s in it for the girls and what will the boys offer. There’s this story that’s being bandied about about Rav Hirsch, I’m sure you’re all familiar with it. The question is, what kind of boys are we producing? Of course not everyone’s a Rav Hirsch, just as not every girl is a Rebbetzin Hirsch, but the point is, there is no talking about what and who the boys should be becoming.

    #1134557
    volvie
    Member

    I see many Talmidei Chachomim are being produced. What are the girls offering? What should be becoming of the girls?

    #1134558
    ir
    Member

    I went to a local shidduch meeting recently. It was only a small percentage of girls that were looking for a boy in kolel. Most of the girls, lovely and frum, were looking for “learner-earners”.

    #1134559
    oomis
    Participant

    “I see many Talmidei Chachomim are being produced. What are the girls offering? What should be becoming of the girls? “

    The offering of the “girls” is that they are producing the next generation of talmidei chachomim and wives of same. They are being pregnant with them, birthing them (which if a man had to do it even once, would mean the end of civilization for all time), rearing them, teaching them the essence of Torah Yiddishkeit, and the middos that they need to have in order to be worthy of the title of talmid chochom.

    #1134560
    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    ir, I agree! For about 3-5 years after high school/sem the girls insist on learners. Fast forward to age 23, 24 after having dated learning guys, some of whom werent the biggest baalei seichel and midos, their eyes open up to other options, and they consider or even prefer learner/earners.

    #1134561
    miamimiami
    Member

    IMHO – Much of these post are disturbing. We are not buying cars with 3 year leases. Too much time is wasted on image and what other will think! Are you marrying somebody because your parents/friends/shadchin thinks it is a good idea?

    Further, IMHO, I do not see how this type of dowry/support system can continue? There are people making good money and are totally broke/in debt because of it. (I have seen the post here.) And they continue, because they cannot look poor or unable to fulfill financial obligations – it would be too embarrassing.

    Even worse, IMHO, it appears that this type of environment creates EXTREME self-centered-ness, which is another term for Giyva. And we know the Creator HATES this midda. “What am I worth($)?” “Is the girl/boy worthy of my level of holiness (religiosity)?” “I should be able to get somebody better” Good grief – it gives me heart palpitations to think people think like this….

    #1134562
    Bodek
    Participant

    Can we get this thread back on topic?

    “How many guys do you know who leave yeshiva shortly after getting married. I am in yeshiva and have seen many. It is well known that it is extremely difficult to get a shidduch of the same level of religiosity once one leaves yeshiva. This is very detrimental to those guys who should be leaving yeshiva, as they are pressured to stay and often waste their time instead of moving on in life.”

    IMHO: the workplace today is not a very good enviroment for a single guy to be in. Its sad to say, but for so many guys, once they make the move and go out to work its a downhill battle. Even if someone is not learning the whole day in yeshiva at least he is surrounded by good people.

    Once a guy gets married, he is usually more settled in life (i.e. Pas Besalo) and will have an easier time battling such temptations as inappropriate office relationships and internet useage.

    #1134563
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hey, my perfectly obnoxious thread has been completely hijacked.

    Tzippi: I still don’t understand your question.

    #1134564

    If you put the word Shidduchim in the title of a thread it WILL be hijacked

    #1134565
    Bodek
    Participant

    Mod 80- can we change the name of the thread to somthing that got do do with it?

    here’s one idea: “Single Working Guys Crises”

    Popa-bar-abba: since this is your thread – i hereby give you permission to veto my title…

    #1134566

    LETS PLEASE TRY TO KEEP THIS PARTICULAR THREAD ON TOPIC

    #1134567
    bpt
    Participant

    IR –

    PLEASE ask the shidduch group if you can share their contact info with me and if so, please forward it to the Mods, as I have 3 learner – earners lined up, as soon as they come of age. (hopefully, the wisecracking comments of their father won’t be held against them!

    First post after the plea to stay on topic is off-topic. However since there is an important Toeles here and BP Totty is such a nice fellow, we’ll leave it alone.

    #1134568
    bpt
    Participant

    I agree with Bodek on the temptation issue. The workplace can present real challenges to single men, and its much harder to fool your wife if you’re not behaving as you should. So while I left yeshiva before getting married, I would not be so quick to turn my boys loose into the real world without being at least engaged. On the other hand, I’m not letting my boys jump into a responsibility of raising a family if they don’t have a clue as to how they plan on paying for the bills that come with it. Help is one thing; welfare is another. I think 3 years is enough, and there should be a cap on the ammt.

    #1134569
    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    BP Totty, your views are so sensible, I’m honestly surprised youre not being throttled with offers.

    #1134570
    bpt
    Participant

    (Mods – please read the last line of the post.. you’ll see I’m getting back on topic)

    Azoi –

    Thanks for the vote of confidence. I’m still a 2-3 years away from entering the fray. so lets see what happens then. But in all fairness to the other memebers, I’d say 80% of the people here share some of the view to some degree or another. What I do seem to have, is the way in which to put the thoughts in writing (that’s a job related skill, by the way).

    Besides, it doesnt seem like most folks are doing to bad at clinching deals. If anything at all, these threads bulid confidence for people to stick to what they believe in, if they see they are not alone.

    #1134571
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    my original title was hijacked by the mods. I called it: shidduchim; girls are shallow. I figured everyone would read it then.

    #1134572
    sm29
    Participant

    Before someone marries, they have to think ahead in to what their situation might be like. A good idea would be to ask someone in that situation about it so you kind of have sense of what it’s like.

    For example, if a girl wants lifestyle inwhich her husband learns while she works and takes care of the kids, then she should talk to a woman who has that, and ask her about some things about it. This way she can make an informed decision what to do. She might say yes she wants it, or decide she wants someone who does both learn and work.

    #1134573
    iBump 2.0
    Participant

    popa’s first thread…

    ūüôā Bump:)

    okay im done for now

    #1134574
    ObstacleIllusion
    Participant

    Interestingly enough, as I was reading this I did not realize that this thread was three years old, until the last post obviously. I was thinking that while this attitude of girls demanding strictly learning boys was once very prevalent, it has since decreased. Three years ago, the girls in the parsha had gone to high school/seminary in the years before the onset of the Recession or were close to finishing school when it struck. They were educated and taught to expect certain things in a very different financial environment. I think the girls now, who have been dating for a while or have recently entered the parsha, are much more aware of the fiscal realities and capabilities within our communities.

    #1134575
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    mods: can’t we please put this back to the original title? Mod 80 has been gone for a long time and won’t notice

    #1134576
    oomis
    Participant

    Girls are now coming to realize that the life that seminary taught them to want for themselves, might not be as they envisioned and fantasized it to be. Many of them want that life anyway, but many do not.

    #1134577
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Popa really is an excellent troll.

    #1134578
    DerechErets
    Member

    He is sincere here.

    #1134579
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    DerechErets: Please rate this thread on a scale of 1-250, with 1 being dead serious, and 250 being a complete troll, and please support your response with evidence from his posts.

    #1134580
    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Many communities on the East Coast, Flatbush in particular, is a community with the unfortunate “keeping up with the Joneses” concept. Because of this, it has become socially “cool”, if you will, to marry a guy because of his yeshiva. Don’t think there aren’t dozens of guys in Lakewood who don’t belong there. I’m not bashing the ones who do learn well, because they are in the majority. The big problem is the mechanchim who won’t push boys out to work if their talents lie there; they are scared of the stigma and the yeshivish-right. Then, what happens is that the guys who do eventually leave yeshiva leave it completely, having never been taught to temper their needs, as opposed to the guy who always thought he was doing the right thing by working, and being encouraged by his Rebbe, so he feels the desire to learn as much as he can.

    The only reason that out-of-towners have adopted this as well is because the OOT girls meets the in town ones in camp and seminary, and develop similar biases. I know of a couple of great guys who learn more and are more productive than boys who are supposedly learning “full-time”.

    The most important thing for a guy (or girl) is to do something with his life. If a guy is staying out of trouble, has a steady job that can support a home, and cares about Torah values and learn DAILY, then he is doing the right thing. There are countless meforshim that speak about the importance of earning a livelihood. Going to work is not bittul torah, but pretending to learn all day while hanging around IS bittul torah.

    #1134581
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ??? ???? ???? ???

    It was both trolling and sincere. IOW: like many of my threads.

    That is, I think this thread makes a good point, but it was deliberately made so as to be outrageous (an effect which was dulled by Mod 80’s changing the title outrageously, which I see has been changed back now happily).

    #1134583
    ChallahMom
    Member

    ok – so my response is to the title “girls are shallow”. yeah, but so are guys but that isn’t the biggest issue. the biggest is the procrastination men are sitting in comfortably that says “hey, i have the upper hand and i can marry someone whenever.” I think more people need to tell these guys they need to grow up quicker. Sure, we mother our boys but we also need to kick them in the tush and let them make some decisions on their own so they are capable of making decisions when it comes to choosing a kallah.

    #1134584

    ChallahMom,

    Isn’t it better that they grow at their own pace?

    #1134585
    oomis
    Participant

    Anyone who puts the emphasis on the wrong things in shidduchim, is shallow or misguided, male or female. If the highest priority is “looks,” or financial matters, or what yeshivah/seminary was attended, there is something lacking. Yes, there needs to be attraction on some level, there needs to be a knowledge that finances will be manageable, there needs to be a love of Torah and chashivus to its being learned in some measure on a regular basis. But ALL those things can only be good in conjunction with seeing the person’s middos. ALL those things mean nothing, if the person’s middos are deficient. I don’t care how gorgeous/handsome/ rich/learned the people being redt are. If they have a lack of menschlechkeit, they are not good enough for my kids.

    #1134586
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “so they are capable of making decisions when it comes to choosing a kallah.”

    Lets start one step earlier. Let them decide who they want to date, why let their mothers make that decision.

    #1134587

    This thread raises an interesting issue that kind of infuriates me, and I’ve seen it happen more than once. I have two friends who were in Yeshiva until their mid twenties, and then left to go to law school while they were still single. One was in yeshiva with me and was known to be a metzuyan. I got to know the other one later, but he got semichah before he left yeshiva and was moser nefesh to be midakdek in halacha while he was in law school in a God-forsaken town. Both were extremely bright and went to Ivy League law schools.

    I attempted to redt them shidduchim several times. I heard from several girls’ families that although their daughter/sister was planning to marry someone who would work after a few years, they were interested only in someone learning full time. I urged them to be a bit more open, since these friends were accomplished masmidim who were well on their way to sufficient parnasah as well. But my suggestions fell on deaf ears.

    I don’t know who most of the girls in question ended up marrying, but I know that at least one married a very nice boy who was still learning in BMG at the time they were engaged. He is a fine baal middos, though he wasn’t such a strong lamdan, and in fact was paying a yungerman to learn with him while he was in BMG. A year after the wedding, he was beginning to work in property management.

    I have no complaint about the outcome – both of these friends have met their basherts and this girl undoubtedly is married to the husband who was right for her. But I am disgusted by the process, especially since it led her to reject a legitimate talmid chochom in the name of marrying someone who is still in yeshiva.

    #1134588
    interjection
    Participant

    “But I am disgusted by the process, especially since it led her to reject a legitimate talmid chochom in the name of marrying someone who is still in yeshiva.”

    I don’t understand why people get insulted when the wrong people say no. These girls clearly weren’t looking for college educated boys- esteemed as they may be. More yeses doesn’t result in a sooner marriage or a better marriage. All you need is the right person to say yes and forget everyone else. In this case, these boys likely feel their education is a strong part of their identity. Wouldn’t they only want girls who respect that part of them? Most people would be taken with his Ivy League status. Why get insulted that not everyone in the world agrees? If nothing else he saved himself time by not wasting it on a date with someone who won’t appreciate something he worked hard for and makes him extremely proud.

    #1134589

    Interjection, it’s not a statement about whether what they want is legitimate. It’s a statement about being shallow and therefore not getting what they want, or getting a “lesser” version of what they want. I’m also not insulted, either personally or on behalf of my friends. I’m just pointing out that it was a stupid thought process on the part of these girls.

    #1134590
    LevAryeh
    Member

    I’d rather a girl who was shallow than one who went off the deep end.

    #1134591
    oomis
    Participant

    LAB – good line!

    #1134592
    writersoul
    Member

    When you spend a limited (by necessity) amount of time looking into someone who would be exactly the same as the person on the next resume if not for the different name, symbols become important.

    Which I think is an issue with the shidduch system more than a vindication of shallow people. But that’s apparently just me.

    #1134593
    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Girls: Would you rather marry a legitimate talmid chacham who was in college or working while still single, or a stumbler in BM who will learn in kollel for a few years before pursuing a parnassah?

    #1134594
    interjection
    Participant

    FIF: I think you’ll get a different response from a single girl than if you ask her after she’s been married ten years.

    #1134595

    It’s very important to marry someone who loves learning, regardless of how much time he has to learn. As for whether he should be a talmid chacham– that’s more subjective.

    I had to run an errand this morning, and when I got home, I saw that my husband was very upset. I asked him what was wrong and he replied, “I’ve been doing study abroad paperwork for law school and I haven’t learned at all yet today!” It made me so proud to hear how he yearns for Torah.

    #1134596
    ironpenguin
    Member

    I think its interesting that girls are being called shallow for wanting a husband in learning. Has Torah become a commodity to be bought and sold now? Apparently it has. Actually, I think its just the Bais Yaakovy circle, the girls who went to BY seminaries and are now teaching/TTI/office jobs who would only marry a learning guy. They have so much of their life circumscribed that they could not fathom standing up and having a creative opinion. There are a very select few girls who have such a burning love for Torah that that is the only thing they want in a husband. For those girls, nothing less than a talmid chochum is what they want and deserve.

    For others, the girls who have been exposed to the realities of life, namely the costs of a frum lifestyle, do not want the kollel lifestyle. From what I hear, kollel only lasts a few years and then the husband starts looking for work, with no skills and probably no high school diploma. For this entire time, the girl is supporting and raising a growing family solely on the income of her teaching/office/special ed/speech therapy job.

    Some girls, in fact many girls do not want this lifestyle. It’s just not fair to them! If a married woman is raising the children shopping, cooking, laundry, doctors appointments with the kids, PTA….all the while holding down low paying job to cover all the expenses….what is she recieving from her talmid chochum husband? A dvar torah at the shabbos table? Being able to tell her friends that she has a husband in kollel? It gets old fast.

    I believe that most girls have seen this path and have chosen not to go down it, instead asking about a learner earner – a man who is a frum, good person, who likes Yiddishkeit and likes to learn but feels a responsibity to provide for his family.

    I believe that yes, girls are being shallow and afraid by only wanting to marry a learning guy. I know many girls and believe me, only very few of them truly have this burning love for Torah with the discipline to provide for the home without the physical contributions from her husband.

    Girls are shallow, but so is the society we live in. This is just one manifestation of the materialism and externally focused society we live in.

    How sad that Torah has become so cheap as to become mere bragging rights.

    #1134597
    live right
    Member

    ironpenguin: way to generalize! you have officially succeeded in presenting yourself as someone with a biased opinion.

    get to know some brave girls who value torah and are doing all they can to be able to provide for a home where a torah foundation can be built. they are not doing this because it is “circumscribed” and because “they cannot fathom standing up and having a creative opinion.” this is not the easy way out. its hard, its daunting and its stressful. if you ask me, marrying a rich or professional guy seems like the easier option.

    #1134598

    Iron Penguin, perhaps your love of Torah has resulted in a reading comprehension failure. The topic was not about girls who are shallow because they love Torah. It is about girls who favor the *appearance* of Torah over legitimate accomplishment in Torah.

    #1134599
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Iron Penguin has a point. We live in a day and age where a household needs 2 incomes to make ends meet. A frum lifestyle especially has many expenses associated with it, such as the higher cost of kosher food, seforim, Pesach, shabbat, yom tov meals, wigs (if that’s a particular community’s practice), yeshiva tuition, etc. Halakhically, a ketuba enjoins a man to provide for the kallah. Many families where the husband does not work are on welfare, which is a busha, and immoral.

    I hold like the Rambam 100% on the issur of taking compensation for learning torah. If people learn full-time and have the desire or capability to go into chinuch, kashrut, the professional rabbinate, become a mohel, a shochet, etc., then this is acceptable, since they’re not strictly profiteering off the torah.

    I learn in the evenings in a kollel program for an hour and a half and I also go to a daf yomi shiur, full of men who work or go to school during the day. They’re a fine group, and when they can be out schmoozing with their buddies, or playing computer games, or watching tv instead, the fact that they use their evenings to learn is inspirational and powerful.

    #1134600
    streekgeek
    Participant

    I find the title of this thread quite disturbing, which is why I decided to read through it even though it mentioned that horrible word of shidduchim.

    I semi-agree with ironpenguin on one thing. “Girls are shallow, but so is the society we live in.” You can’t expect girls who were brought up in a Bais Yaakov system that preaches “perfect boy=learner” to give up their idealistic dreams of a perfect marriage.

    However, in regard to the OP and FriendInFlatbush’s question: I definitely consider someone who sets aside time to learn and is serious about his avodas Hashem as someone I would date and potentially marry. As a product of a Bais Yaakov school, I understand that a home must be built on Torah, however I disagree (and always have, much to the chagrin of my teachers) that this does not mean a husband has to be in kollel full time. Personally, someone who was brought up properly, is well-grounded, and knows where he is going in life is a lot better then someone who is sitting around in yeshiva just because he must.

    #1134601
    writersoul
    Member

    FIF: The first, absolutely.

    interjection: Better not to give out personal information.

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