December 28, 2009 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #591016
I recently heard of a shidduch that was rejected from the boys side. The reason the boys parents said no (after initially saying yes) was not because the girl wasn’t right for their son (she has the right yeshiva, seminary, camps, hashkafah, etc.) but rather the shidduch was rejected because one of her teenage brothers is in college and doesn’t go to Yeshiva or have a regular seder (the boy is 19). The brother is Shomer Shabbos and Kashruth and overall has good midos. Learning “isnt for him” so he doesn’t sit in a seder to learn.
My question is should a siblings behavior impact the making of shidduchim? And if you think it should, then why?December 28, 2009 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #673691jewish and working 22Member
Welcome to the stupidity of what matchmaking has become. Now you know why the shidduch process does not work, and will never work (on a large scale) if we keep heading down this path.December 28, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #673692shindyMember
I am not surprised that people will reject a shidduch because of a sibling. There are schools that will reject a girl because of an older sibling. In both cases, the boy has lists….the schools have so many applicants. This is the reality.
The truth is that in the case that Yiddishekup 101 wrote about, would the family of the girl really want a family that has a problem with her brother? Clearly this is not her beshairt, leave it and move on.December 28, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #673693
why is that a problem family…why does a person who does not conform to your idea of a proper jew constitute a family problem…ESPECIALLY if its a sibling…who cares?
You missed the point. The boy’s family felt it was a problem. And the question was: why would the girl want someone whose family felt it was a problem? -77December 28, 2009 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #673694americaisoverParticipant
Not surprising at all, but I bet if the girl had big bucks and the “learning” boy whose parents are looking to shakedown their future mechutinim might have been assured of 1) a house in Lakewood 2)years of support 3) a new hat/suit/cufflinks etc. every few months 4) a new car 5) vacations from learning during “bein hazmanim” 6) tuition for future children, and other eat bread and drink water sacrifices his parents would have reconsidered the shakedown.December 28, 2009 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #673695
i spend so much time in here it all just blends togetherDecember 28, 2009 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #673696
I think its crazy however it (saying no because of siblings) happens all the time.December 28, 2009 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #673697AZParticipant
Boys can say no for any reason and get away with it.
If it was the other way around it is much less likely the girl would say no.
Hmmmmm wonder where I heard that before…
wonder what the reason is…December 28, 2009 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #673698youdontknowmeMember
“Boys can say no for any reason and get away with it.
If it was the other way around it is much less likely the girl would say no.”
So you say but in reality girls say no to shidduchim for crazy reasons all the time (speaking from my own experience). I think it’s too simplistic to blame every shidduch problem on age gap.December 28, 2009 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #673699happyOOTerParticipant
Mishugas yes, but I wouldn’t want my daughter marrying into that type of family anyway. These days good middos are sorely lacking. A boy who sits and learns 20 hours a day but has lousy middos is not truly shomer mitzvos.December 28, 2009 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #673700AZParticipant
Of coursse every shidduch is its own parsha. BUT boys (for the most part) can get away with saying no for any and all reasons and they will still get plenty of chances. If girls do it – they do it at their own risk. That’s just a direct derivative of the inequity of numbersDecember 29, 2009 12:15 am at 12:15 am #673701JosephParticipant
Chazal advise us to look at a prospective wife’s brother’s, since Chazal say her children can be like her brothers.
So the person described in the OP has a strong basis.December 29, 2009 2:14 am at 2:14 am #673703anonymrsParticipant
i dont remember who it was talking about, but there is a pasuk which says someone was the sister of someone. we learn from here that one should check out the brothers of a prospective wife.
that being said, rejection of a sibling of a prospective mate is subjective. what i may see as unacceptable may be prefectly ok to you, and vice versa. also, what may be unacceptable for one child in terms of siblings may not be for another. for example, for one child, having a prospective in law who is in college rather than in bais medrash might be fine, but for another child in the same family, only learning in laws are acceptable.December 29, 2009 2:32 am at 2:32 am #673704cherrybimParticipant
Yitzchok’s shidduch with Rifka didn’t turn out that bad though.December 29, 2009 2:45 am at 2:45 am #673705
What if the wife HAS no brothers?December 29, 2009 3:18 am at 3:18 am #673706jphoneMember
Yes, chazal say to look at the brother. In this case it says this 19 year old is intellectually honest with himself and everyone else. A nice midda.December 29, 2009 9:51 am at 9:51 am #673707devils_advocateMember
I do not refer to anybody specific!!!, rather to the idea “learning is not for me”
“Learning “isnt for him” so he doesn’t sit in a seder to learn”. TRY THIS, “shabbos is not for me”
as far as i am concerned learning is a mitzvah like any other, parnassah is a heter not to learn. anybody care to explain the heter , Learning “isnt for him”
now of course,if one takes the time needed to relax ,thats all for the sake of learning. also if chas v’shalom someone doesnt have a hand they cant do mitzvos that require the hands. but is mr. “learning not for him” unable to read the stories of t’nach or medrashim? maybe even some chumash and rashi.December 29, 2009 10:59 am at 10:59 am #673708americanisraeliParticipant
its a good thing that avraham avinu didnt share that ideal. he would have rejected rivkah. and with those standards, this family would definitely say no to yaakov avinu. his brother was in the field all day.December 29, 2009 11:14 am at 11:14 am #673709haifagirlParticipant
Which reminds of a young lady I know. She is now happily married with a bunch of kids, but I knew her before that, in the days when she was looking.
She once told me she would never consider a BT. I replied, “Really? It’s a good thing your father didn’t feel that way.”December 29, 2009 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #673710tzippiMember
Devil’s advocate, we don’t know if he catches the shmuz, or listens to kosher radio and the occasional shmuz, etc. For all we know, he may do exactly what you’re saying.
Do you mean, BTW, to advocate a fellow sitting in yeshiva with a Midrash Says to pass the time?
Chasdei Hashem, that while for whatever reason he can’t get into learning, he’s still committed to staying on the derech. That says a LOT in my opinion. AND another factor is not so much a situation like this but how the family handles it. Sounds like they’re getting an A on that score too. Sounds like a GREAT family to be meshadech with.December 29, 2009 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #673711
Devil’s Advocate, I don’t really agree with the idea that there is an equality between observance of Shabbos and sitting in BEsi MEdrash and learning (notwithstanding the fact that we DO say that Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam). The frum velt really needs to take off its blinders and recognize that sitting a learning Gemarah is NOT for everybody. Everyone has different intellectual strengths, temperaments, and patience, and not all guys are cut out for the type of learning that we usually think of when we say “Sitting and learning.” That is a far cry from saying, “not cut out for Shabbos.”
This young man clearly is committed to OBSERVANCE of the Torah, if not the actual formal learning of it. Maybe he goes to a Shabbos shiur (or would) or likes to go over the parsha with the help of Artscroll. Maybe he would enjoy reading English language books about Halacha or Hashkafa. These are all forms of learning. I know a lot of frum men who rarely open a sefer. But they keep Shabbos in every detail, they are kosher to the letter, their wives all go to the Mikveh, and they are raising a generation of kids who are all in Yeshivah.
We really need to stop stereotyping what is frum and what is not. NOT all guys are cut out to sit and learn, and they are honest enough to admit it, yet they are committed to Yiddishkeit. That says a lot to me. There are lots of guys doing little more than warming the bench in the Beis Medrash, who ought not be there. So are they more desirable as an asset to their sisters’ shidduchim?December 29, 2009 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #673712
It might not be fair but boys get redd more shiduchim ergo theyre pickier than girls. dont delude yourselves into thinking that only boys say no for seemingly stupid reasons. I’d bet this family would say no if they were the girl.December 29, 2009 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #673713positiveaynayimMember
I think everyone needs to do what works for them. Everyone has different standards based on the way they decided to live their life.
The issue I have is that they initially said yes, and since checking out the other family is a priority to them, then they did not do a good job—that probably raises a whole slew of other issues.
If a person wants to be a certain way, and has given it genuine thought, and has da’as Torah backing them up, then be that way–but be consistant, and do it with yashrus.December 29, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #673714happyOOTerParticipant
haifagirl – good answer!December 29, 2009 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #673715
“She once told me she would never consider a BT. I replied, “Really? It’s a good thing your father didn’t feel that way.”
Although I do think this was a good answer, I can tell you from experience that marrying a BT can be a huge challenge, and I would NOT bedavka seek out that shidduch for my children. I am married to a phenomenal man, a truly ehrliche frum man, whose middos of chessed clearly derived directly from Avraham Avinu. He became frum in his 20s, at least 5 years before we met. His parents were wonderful people and I dearly loved them (no in-law jokes in my household). BUT, there is no question that it took a lot of work to make it work, and I was very fortunate. My in-laws had GREAT respect for my husband’s decision to be frum, and were very supportive of him.
Many parents of BT view the change as a rejection of their own values, and they do not emotionally support the decision of their child to be religious. If the child is young, they don’t want to hear about Yeshivas and tuition, or kashrus, or no tv on Shabbos. In some cases, they actively seek to discourage the religious forays that their child is making, or put down frumkeit.
And what happens when there is a (non-kosher and R”L non-JEWISH) celebration in the family? As loving and supportive as my in-laws were, when a very close relative married a non-Jew, they were VERY hurt that we did not go to what they viewed as a family simcha. There was great machlokess for almost a year, where the family member did not forgive us, until there was a death in the family, and it became less important to them to continue a grudge.
And what happens when the grandchildren can’t eat (without great preparation in advance)in the treif home, or don’t understand why Grandma and Grandpa (as opposed to Bubby and Zeidy) really have no interest in attending their siddur party? That was very hard on my kids, even with my in-laws being so wonderful. My shver, who was a real tzaddik bein odom l’chaveiro, did not attend the 8th grade graduation ceremony when my son received the highest Talmud award (and my parents O”H were long gone, unfortunately), because he was also invited to his great-granddaughter’s first birthday party. He did not “get” how important it was to my son for his only living grandparent to see him receive this award, and watch him graduate. Had he been Valedictorian, he would have attended.
It is not so “glatt” to say go out with a BT. If you do, it has to be with eyes wide open, and anticipating the possible pitfalls, i.e., people who flip in and flip out or people who put too much emphasis on the tafeil, and not enough on the ikkar. It is not for us to decide if someone should marry a BT. Only each person on an individual basis can make that determination. Knowing what I know, though I would not STOP such a shidduch, I would not deliberately look for it.December 29, 2009 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #673716bptParticipant
This gem of a girl is better off without Mr. Best Bochur. The problem is, he (or his folks)THINKS he’s the best bochur.
Let him enjoy his moment in the sun; it fades real fast.
And to the people who use the “chazal” stick, that determintion is best left to Best Bochur’s rov / Rosh Yeshiva. I wonder if they were consulted, or was Yiddish blit spilt on a hunch?
Not to worry, she will surely get the spouse that is best suited for her, as will Mr. Best Bochur. (But I only envy her)December 29, 2009 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #673717haifagirlParticipant
I understand the problems. I never said she should seek it out. I just felt she shouldn’t dismiss someone JUST BECAUSE he is a BT.
If she had had a bad experience with her grandparents I could understand her attitude. But in her case, she did not have those problems with her non-frum grandparents. They were very supportive and attended all the siddur parties and chumash parties, and all other simchas. They were thrilled to have so many grandchildren (and it was a huge family) and wanted to celebrate with them.December 29, 2009 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #673718JosephParticipant
1. The OP was asking a hypothetical question regarding a shidduch he “recently heard of”.
2. The OP stated that the brother “doesn’t go to Yeshiva or have a regular seder (the boy is 19).”
3. The OP then asked “My question is should a siblings behavior impact the making of shidduchim? And if you think it should, then why?”
So the correct answer to the OP’s question is that Chazal advise everyone in the shidduch parsha to consider the girl’s brothers; Not having a regular seder (i.e. a chavrusa; a shiur; or even learning themselves on a regular schedule) is not proper. So, yes, a siblings behavior should impact the making of shidduchim. And the reason why, as explained earlier, is that Chazal stated you can expect you’re children to share personality traits with their mother’s brothers.December 29, 2009 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #673719
Only one of my five children shares a trait in common with one of my brothers – his love of chazzonus. A brother and sister can be very different types of people. If they are both raised with yoshrus in a loving home, the fact that the boy is not a “learner” at age 19 does not mean the sister’s children will be that way unless SHE raises them that way. I think Chazal should have looked more closely at the GIRL, who will do most if not all of the child-rearing, and be concerned with HER hashkafa towards support of learning, both her future husband’s and her children’s.
We should consider ALL members of a family and how they interact with one another, in assessing a potential shidduch – not just look at the brothers.December 29, 2009 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #673720
Joseph not being into learning isnt a “personality trait”.December 29, 2009 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #673721tzippiMember
WADR to Joseph, do you think you hampered your sisters in any way? Or could you have at any point? (or maybe you didn’t fall under the rov category so they were safe….)December 29, 2009 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #673722
Yes of course everything must be considered. Still Chazal say what they say. And there is a logic to it as a particularly important consideration. Yes the woman will raise the children m more than the father. That is EXACTLY the importance of the brothers. The Kallah will likely raise her sons in a similar manner to how her mother raised her brothers.December 29, 2009 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #673723
Very interesting responses. Most think that the girl is better off without this particular boy because with such ideals (whether his own or his families)he is no catch.
I agree with the opinion that the most important thing when looking at the girls family is the environament that she ia brought up in. Is it loving? Does the family get along (usually)? Are middos placed at a high standard? etc. These are what we as Bnei Torah should be looking at. As someone said above would it be better for her brother to enroll in a Yeshiva just so he can say he goes?
We need to stop judging people based on what we think is right. It would be wonderful if all 19 year old boys were sitting and learning multiple sedarim a day. Fact is, not all of them can or are able to. We need to start accepting that reality.December 29, 2009 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #673724
Moderator—“The Kallah will likely raise her sons in a similar manner to how her mother raised her brothers”
Seems like you are blaming all mothers for all boys off the derech here!!! Many times no matter what the mother does (and for that matter the father too) a boy (or girl) will make their on decisions regardless of how their mother raised them.
Take your statement a different way, if the sibling is a ben torah, learning 15 hours a day but the girl isnt so “wonderful” should the shidduch be red anyway because look at how wonderful the boy is (and by inference, what a wonderful job the girl will do raising her own!).December 29, 2009 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #673725
I’m not blaming or judging anyone. I’m explaining part of the logic of what Chazal say as explained by Meforshim. No piece of information guarantees anything. It is all in the hands of Hashem and we must do our hishtadlus.
Looking at the middos of the brothers is an important piece of information.December 29, 2009 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #673726
I agree with Yiddishekop. I also believe that chazal had many important lessons to impart, but that does not take the onus off us for considering all aspects, not just one facet of a family. And if the boy is OTD (not the case in the scenario which we were presented), but the girl is ehrliche frum, then whose influence on the future children will be more strongly felt?December 29, 2009 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #673727
I must have missed something.
Did any poster here say that you should ONLY look at a girl’s brothers and ignore her middos and values, the rest of her family and all other information?December 29, 2009 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #673728TorahMomParticipant
And what if the girl has two (or more) brothers, one of whom is a shtark learner (with good middos also, of course)and one who is not (even one who may not be “at risk” or “OTD”). Does one carry more weight in the decision process than the other?December 29, 2009 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #673729
And what if she is a Baal Chesed but occasionally gets angry? What if her mother is wonderful, but not her father?
Obviously like in everything else one must take all known factors into consideration and use SEICHEL, that’s why we were given it.
No one said to look only at the brothers!
This thread is full of arguments against no one.December 30, 2009 12:06 am at 12:06 am #673730
“I must have missed something.
Did any poster here say that you should ONLY look at a girl’s brothers and ignore her middos and values, the rest of her family and all other information? “
As in all things, we have to use our seichel (as Mod 80 pointed out so aptly). Although no one said to look only at the brothers, there was a between the lines undercurrent that this is and should be a MAIN concern.
(BTW, isn’t it better to see a thread full of arguments against NO one, than one filled with acrimonious words towards SOMEone?)
EDITEDDecember 30, 2009 12:07 am at 12:07 am #673731
lol thats what we do best here 80…argue 😀 thats what makes the CR fun 😀December 30, 2009 12:14 am at 12:14 am #673732Shidduch SolutionMember
The reason why the Torah says that you should check into a girls brothers before completing a Shidduch, is that being that they were raised in the same home chances are that they will have similar behavior(ism). However in todays world we are influenced by the outside world and we can’t judge a girl from what you see in her brothers…
This is the Daas Torah from a Rav that answers questions for http://www.shidduchworld.orgDecember 30, 2009 1:53 am at 1:53 am #673733jmattMember
by the way:
???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????
…???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???December 30, 2009 3:12 am at 3:12 am #673734Yanky55Participant
AND by the way…..
Did Nachshon have a seder in learning or was his tzidkus the fact that he showed emunah in HKB”H by krias yam suf?
Anyone think of that?December 30, 2009 4:57 am at 4:57 am #673735charliehallParticipant
I guess I really am an outsider to the yeshiva world. In the modern orthodox world of which I am a part, BTs and gerim are pretty much indistinguishable from the FFBs and I don’t know anyone who would turn down a shidduch on that basis. And for the most part only men who want to be rabbis, or women who want to be Jewish educators, learn full time after about age 20. I think the shidduch crisis in the MO world (and there is one) has other causes.December 30, 2009 7:47 am at 7:47 am #673736youdontknowmeMember
To those of you saying the girl is better off without this guy, how is what you’re doing (judging someone based on a family member) any different than what the boy’s mother did? I think most guys would be surprised to find out what their mothers say on their behalf when it comes to shidduchim. I do think it’s crazy that they would say no to a shidduch for this reason but everyone has their own crazy things they do.December 30, 2009 9:53 am at 9:53 am #673737namelessMember
Re- the comment about Avraham Avinu being Mishadech with Besual.
It says that when Eliezer(avraham’s servant)went to see Rifkah, he had ‘Kvitzas Haderech’.
The wind blew him straight to where Rifkah was. Otherwise, under normal circumstances, he would have lodged on the way and the innkeeper would have probably asked him questions.
If he would have said that he is going to check out Besuel’s daughter for Yitzchock , the inkeeper would have talked him out of it……
So , if not here , then where can we learn that bad information can stop a good girl from getting ahead??December 30, 2009 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #673739devils_advocateMember
TO MR. “Shidduch Solution”
[quote[However in todays world we are influenced by the outside world and we can’t judge a girl from what you see in her brothers..
cannot judge with certainty !! correct. although it still raises doubt.December 30, 2009 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #673740
I think it all boils down to the indivdual her/himself. While in the ideal family all members will have same hashkofah, goals, ideals etc., in today’s world it seems almost impossible.
I personally know of many family’s where one or more of the children arent following the derech that their parents planned and trained them for (right yeshivos/Bais Yackovs, camps etc.). Today there are way too many outside influences even in the “best of” yeshivos.The Yetzer Horah is working overtime to drag down as many neshomas as he can.December 30, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #673742cherrybimParticipant
Actually, I didn’t touch your post, but thank you for the kind words.
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