January 12, 2009 5:40 am at 5:40 am #683183
thanx shkoyach.January 12, 2009 5:45 am at 5:45 am #683184brooklyn19Participant
you hear that, guys? my age remains a secret and it is completely assur to pressure either me or Moish to reveal it!
shkoy!January 12, 2009 5:49 am at 5:49 am #683185
well I guess to quote you quoting myself “Ma Pleeeezure” 🙂 Hey I think that’;; be my new quote. i really am sleeping by the way qwerty. You’re imagining that I am here 🙂January 12, 2009 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #683188
This thread is great.
Aside from just writing the instances we cannot speak l”h, can we list the seven conditions which must be met in order reveal the information?
We probably usually stumble when we say there is a toeles but we forget that there are other conditions nessecary to reveal the information as we are great at finding thousands of reasons the rules stating when we can’t speak aren’t applicable.January 12, 2009 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #683189areivimzehlazehParticipant
i’m new to this topic. as brooklyn mentioned earlier, i somehow automatically skip the sticky topics. but i’ve finally arrived- buruch habah to me.
Per all the above info, i would love to “mod” some of my previous posts. I guess that’s the biggest lesson of loshon harah- you can never retrieve
Keep up this holy workJanuary 13, 2009 2:48 am at 2:48 am #683190syriansephardiMember
from 12-1 no lashon hara as a zechut for the soilders in eretz yisraelJanuary 13, 2009 7:43 am at 7:43 am #683191
I’ll be happy to post the 7 conditions soon IY”H if I am able too. Just had a really late night and didnt have a chance to check the CR till 2:45 am!January 13, 2009 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #683192syriansephardiMember
wow then u must really be addicted if ur checking at 2:45 am!!January 14, 2009 5:00 am at 5:00 am #683193
syriansephardi: us addicts are up till 3:30am on some nights in the cr!!!January 14, 2009 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #683195noitallmrParticipant
BTW peach has nothing to do with a heart of stone…January 15, 2009 3:23 am at 3:23 am #683196
noitallmr: enlighten us what your talkin about please!!!January 18, 2009 5:17 am at 5:17 am #683197
A Warsaw businessman came to the Chofetz Chaim with a list of seforim he wished to purchase from him. The Chofetz Chaim noticed that the man ordered all of the Chofetz Chaim’s seforim, except for the one on hilchos lashon harah. The businessman explained that in his line of work it would be impossible not to hear and speak lashon hara.
To which the Chofetz Chaim replied that he discussed this issue with R’ Yisroel Salanter and R’ Yisroel said it’s worthwhile to read the sefer on lashon hara if only to make the reader sigh when he learns it.January 18, 2009 6:27 am at 6:27 am #683198
Curious: wow!!! that was great!!! thanx for updating this thread a bit!!!January 18, 2009 6:58 am at 6:58 am #683199anonymisssParticipant
nice story, thanks!
~a~January 19, 2009 2:07 am at 2:07 am #683200
Sorry I disappeared for a bit.. it happens well I am back for now at least.
7 conditions of toeles. Sometimes you think you have to repeat “lashon hara” because you know that Mr. Joe is harming your freind. But wait!!! You may only repeat the info if ALL 7 conditions are met. (See Guard your tongue by R’ Pliskin P.115-118)
#1 You know absolutely positively that it is 100% (and no less) true.
(that means you didn’t just hear abt it from your cousins uncle’s washing machine’s sock’s neighbor)
#2 You know for a fact that what is being done is wrong. (you must find out and weigh the matter carefully for it may be permissible)
#3 You must first rebuke the evildoer before repeating the info. If you know for a fact that he won’t listen and it may even make matters worse than you can avoid doing this as long as you repeat the info in front of 3 people. (if that will also cause more harm than good then you may forego this too.)
#4 The information you are repeating must be absolutely true to the details without exaggeration whatsoever.
#5 You may not intend to derive pleasure from repeating the info and you are forbidden to speak against the wrongdoer if you are motivated by personal dislike. (there is more to this so look in the book.)
#6 Use another method other then repeating negative information whenever possible. Meaning if you can get the point across or mission accomplihed by other means than bad mouthing the culprit then you must do so.
# 7 Punishment must be in accordance with Torah Law. If by you tellin over this information you will cause the wrongdoer a greater loss than the Torah requires of him than you can not repeat it.
There are many more rules regarding these halachos and condtions and you are bet off learning them and chazering them over and over as well as asking a competent Rav when such a shaila arises.January 19, 2009 3:31 am at 3:31 am #683201
shkoyach: thanx for helpin this thread out with a s”h lesson!!! i enjoyed it!!!January 20, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #683202
One may not request shidduch information from a known enemy of the person in question. One may not even request info from someone who is known to have had a disagreement with the person in question. This is often very tempting as the questioner feels they will get “the inside scoop”. Avoid this!January 20, 2009 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #683203areivimzehlazehParticipant
curious- this is not an attack, i repeat, this is not an attack. but please tell me- what is your source
i’m out of here for the night so will catch you tomorrowJanuary 21, 2009 3:47 am at 3:47 am #683204
Valid quesiton areivim, my apologies for not posting the source – I should have.
It’s actually written on the last page of the book “Chofetz Chaim, A Daily Companion”, part of the shidduch supplement written by R’ Moshe Mordchai Lowy (Agudas Yisroel of Toronto) and Rav Hillel Zaks.January 21, 2009 5:57 am at 5:57 am #683205
curious… interesting. i wonder how this applies to ppl seeking info on a shidduch of s/o who had a broken engagement or divorce. does it discuss that?January 21, 2009 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #683206
Look in the end of the c”c in the last tziurim. I unfortunatly cannot remember which one although I believe it is the third that disscusses a little bit about shiduchim.
Shkoyach, the reason is because you are allowed to discuss information for a toelet which includes only for the good absolutly no sinah/hatred along with no additions or subtractions and, we know, lifnei iver to titen michshal/before a blind person do not place a stumbling block hence the halach listed above.
You cannot speak to ones enemies regarding a person. Additionally, if you accidently say, “but I heard he/she is a ben/bat Torah,” I don’t think I need to complete this to tell you this is avak lashon hara or even perhaps l”h itself because we cannot praise people before their enemies.
Not only that, you may become caught up their emotions and loose the fact that you are speaking for a specific toelet and possibly believe such falsity, anger and cause accusations in shamiyim endagering the whole klall.January 21, 2009 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #683207
I didn’t see anything regarding broken engagements/divorces, but I will try to reread it.
There’s a number given that one can call to ask any shidduch shmiras halashon questions. It’s 718-951-3696, can call 9-10:30 PM.January 22, 2009 11:37 am at 11:37 am #683208
Sorry, what I intended to say was there are halachot and eitzot there about negative information between the two parties and others. But, I don’t think the c”c specificly states broken engagments although that is usually the purpose of those that wish to harm because they are nogeah bidavar.
The explanation I wrote is just from general halachot in the c”c.
But, again, this does not nesecarily apply when a side is full of talmedei chachamim and yirei elokim because they will harbor no resentment. You need to know before asking them for information if there are any unsettled feelings. Personally, from a family member, we were asked about a person who broke off an engagment. B”H, we had no resentment. The girl was really good but not ready at that point; she was pushed into it. We were able to give good, reliable information and we have received the invitation in the mail. For some this applies and for others it does not.
Many times the c”c says you need to know the tevah of others.January 22, 2009 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #683209
i assume this is where i’m supposed to post it.
In all the other places Hashem just says that He heard their cries. What did Hashem SEE this time?
Dunno how you got this out of me. You deserve a gold medal, Moderator-72.
and i hope no one said this before. i wouldn’t know because i never read this thread 😉January 22, 2009 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #683210
oops! i think i posted in the wrong place.
moderator can you copy it over to the right place and delete this message? thanks.January 23, 2009 12:23 am at 12:23 am #683212charlie brownMember
moish, shkoyach for the beautiful and inspiring vort!January 23, 2009 12:47 am at 12:47 am #683213
Nice job moish!!! Good choice of dvar torah. Now where’s your rebbe?January 23, 2009 12:57 am at 12:57 am #683214
thanks, charles BUT IT’S IN THE WRONG THREAD! shows how much i look at these sticky ones.January 23, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #683215YW Moderator-72Participant
moish01 – it is such a good thought that I think we should leave it on both threads!January 23, 2009 2:41 am at 2:41 am #683216
you’re so mean! take it off! or else i’m gonna count it like i wrote two divrei torah and then i’m off the hook for life! (which i already am, but maybe it’s “scare” you enough into listening to me…) come on!January 23, 2009 7:05 am at 7:05 am #683217
Li’iluy Nishmas HaTzadekes Rebbetzin Cheryl Feldberger…. Hashkafa lesson of the day.
ppl tend to think that if I dont speak L”H I will have nothing left to say and wont have any friends! Punkt fakert! When you are careful wih your speech you will see that your conversations will become deeper and more meaningful as well as profound and will invigorate friendships and relationships!
HALACHA: Rechilus- You may not say rechilus abt a child. 10 yr old Moishy has a fight with friend Yanky Berger. Do NOT go tell Mrs. Berger that you saw Moishy hit her son because she will go and may cause undue harm to Moishy etc getting a whole family fight out of this!January 25, 2009 8:28 am at 8:28 am #683218JosephParticipant
Day 111 – Relatives and Non-JewsJanuary 25, 2009 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #683219
shkoyach & joseph: thanx for updatin this thread!!!January 25, 2009 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #683220
Some more shidduchim and shmiras halashon points: (source: shidduch addendum to the Chofetz Chaim: A Daily Companion)
– If you have negative information to relate about a prosepctive shidduch, yet you know that the person inquiring will not heed your advice, then do not disclose that info.
– If you decide not to continue with a shidduch based on info you heard, you may not repeat this info to anyone else, even to the shadchan. An exception to this – “unless there is a clear purpose”, i.e. “in order to prevent another person from falling into a bad situation”.January 25, 2009 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #683221
Same source as above:
THREE CATEGORIES OF INFORMATION with regard to shidduchim:
#1 – Objective, Essential Information
This type of info falls under the category of “lo saamod al dam rayecha”. Provided that all the rules of lashon hora l’toeles are met, this info must not be witheld, and it must be volunteered even if you are not directly asked.
This type of info includes any faults that are detrimental to establishing a Jewish home, a happy maariage and wholesome relationship. Included is seriously flawed character traits, immodesty, lack of religious commitment, and definite health or emotional problems.
#2 – Subjective, Essential Information
This refers to middos, personality, intellect, age, learning, etc. = info that is important but not crucial. You must tell the truth if asked, but you don’t have to volunteer the info if not asked. Unless you are sure that what you have to share will be detrimental to building a happy Jewish home, then refrain from sharing that info until you can clarify the matter.
#3 – Unique, Personal Preferences
This includes minor issues that do not stand in the way of a happy marriage. Example provided: a young lady only wants to date someone who will share her love of music. If someone asks you about a young man, and you know that he does not love music, how do you respond? If asked directly about this, you may honestly respond, and this does not violate rechilus, even though the shidduch will most likely be nixed. You may not lie regarding this matter, however you may choose to refrain from answering the question if you think the shidduch still stands a good chance.January 25, 2009 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #683222
curious: thanx that was really informative & important things to know!!!!January 26, 2009 12:54 am at 12:54 am #683225chofetzchaimMember
Tonight, Rosh Chodesh Shvat begins a new cycle of Chofetz Chaim Yomi. Please consider joining. It is 2-3 si’ifim per day and you finish all of Sefer Chofetz Chaim 3 times a year.January 26, 2009 6:06 am at 6:06 am #683226
Thanks R’ Jo and curious! I got to learn two extra times tonight 🙂
The shidduchim thing is a great thing to have on here… cant even describe how many times I’ve been put into those matzavim while ppl were inquiring abt shidduchim! Thank you for posting it. And I am so happy that I am not the only one posting halachos on here cuz I pashut dont always remember to post it 🙂January 26, 2009 6:38 am at 6:38 am #683227
Curious and Joseph: i just read your posts, thanx for the info.$January 28, 2009 2:11 am at 2:11 am #683228
No one posted new laws in a while.
There are three types of toelet:
1. To help the victim.
2. To degrade evildoers.
3. To remove doubt from one’s heart.
In order to apply a toelet, asses if the toelet has a probability of acctually occuring and harbor no resentment.
In other words, will the victim acctually be helped? Or are you just behaving zelously for the victim and will accomplish nothing through your information? Are you saying the information to late? Number 2 is easy; we need to prevent people from emulating his actions. Number 3 means that yes we can vent when we are in the proper place around the right people. You have to know they won’t accept the information as fact before hand…
Remember, this is only condition 5 of the 7 conditions nesecary to relay information.January 28, 2009 3:53 am at 3:53 am #683229
thanx tal, at least somebody is updating this thread.$
btw mods what happened with the cchf??$January 29, 2009 4:31 am at 4:31 am #683232YW Moderator-72Participant
if memory serves me correctly, there is a story about the Chofetz Chaim where he was traveling and in the wagon in which he was traveling there was a horse or cattle dealer (someone can fix the details – I do not remember all the details) and this merchant spent the trip talking about his trade. when they arrived at where they were going, and the merchant found out who he was talking to, he begged forgiveness for bothering the Chofetz Chaim with the nitty gritty details about horses or cattle. the Chofetz Chaim said it was a most pleasurable trip because there was no Lashon Hara.
so… why am I writing this? because if you go to: Feivels Wonders of Creation –
you can learn all about:
and most importantly, hopefully, NO Lashon Hara!January 30, 2009 3:51 am at 3:51 am #683241
Noone posted more laws. Hopefully, the zealousness to eradicate this disgusting middah still continues.
Three excuses to for judging other licaf zichut.
(1) he did not intend to committ it
-those two are very similar to me, the c”c uses different words though
(3) he did not know the chamur of the isur. a good example is the middah of jelousy which is clearly assur from the torah but the klal does it.
(Last post left out the toelet: to have the midubar do teshuva as it is not reason enough to speak.)January 30, 2009 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #683242
thanx for the great lesson, tal.$January 30, 2009 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #683243
tal: thanx for updatin this thread for us!!!February 2, 2009 6:24 am at 6:24 am #683244JosephParticipant
The prohibition against speaking rechilus may apply even if the listener is already aware of the information being conveyed. Rechilus includes any statement which may foster animosity; repeating how someone maligned or acted against the listener might make the listener better aware of details that would be cause for added hatred. Moreover, if the listener had not yet given much thought to the information, repeating it could be cause for animosity to form.February 2, 2009 6:33 am at 6:33 am #683245
ok, i read it. (it has words, doesn’t it?)
trying real hard, CC, no?February 3, 2009 4:13 am at 4:13 am #683246
thanks to e/o for updating! sorry… I dont spend enough time on here to do it anymoreFebruary 3, 2009 4:29 am at 4:29 am #683247
To continue from Joseph, ill feeling/richilut includes:
(1) he/she wants/will act
(2) he/she wants/will say
(3) he/she did
(4) he/she said
any normal person will have ill feeling regarding the one who intends harm unless you are speaking to a proper person to prevent lashon hara or harm. these concepts are well known yet not paid attn to much.February 3, 2009 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #683248lmParticipant
I would like to relate an incident that happened to me personally, a few months ago, and since then I try very hard to stay away from Lushen Horah. Hashem pays back Mido Kneged Mido. One friday afternoon I took the garbage out, when I saw my neighbor of 2 houses away having a very loud and angry argument with his tenant in front of his house, I could hear every word they were shouting at each other. I came back in to my house, I did not mention a word to my spouse or my children, and (mind you it was a very juicy piece of gossip that I overheard)but I did not talk about it. I kept it to myself I even tried mentally to forget about it. Right Motze Shabbos I got calls from customers that wanted my services and I kept receiving more and more calls during the week for more orders! I became unsually busy, with business orders, I saw Siatta DeShomay mamesh!
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