September 13, 2010 12:31 am at 12:31 am #592333missmeMember
There is absolutely no excuse for the sickening styles of short skirts that are contaminating our neighborhoods. No, covering the knees only when you are standing immobile like a statue is not sufficient. And there is far worse, with some so-called frum girls not even covering the knees ever – even standing erect. No, the skirt must be long enough past the knees to cover them in any position when walking, climbing stairs, sitting down, or getting into a car. Its right before Yom Kippur. Do teshuva before its too late.September 13, 2010 1:39 am at 1:39 am #696387
I think that, if there were more pressure from community members, more tochecha, those women would not be doing it.September 13, 2010 1:41 am at 1:41 am #696388
mdd, what kind of pressure do you think would work on these prutzas? the rabbonim have been crying out about this for years, and they still continue their immorality.September 13, 2010 1:42 am at 1:42 am #696389Anonym613Participant
I agree with you. I sometimes wonder if Tznius is taught anymore in the home or in Yeshiva. I see so many so-called frum girls with short, tight dresses or skirts, above the knees, and “stiletto” or very-high-heeled shoes, and long, red fingernails and toenails.
Besides the fact that they don’t look like Bnos Yisroel, when they’re dressed like that; they lead men into impure thoughts, for which they will be severely punished after 120. The Shechina departs when Pritzus is present.September 13, 2010 1:49 am at 1:49 am #696390
So right, it depends on whom, we are talking about. I am talking about the resent pirtsa in Flatbush — where till recently you would almost never see an improperly dressed Jewish girl. If people give them funny looks, if some ladies rebuke them verbally, it very well may work.September 13, 2010 2:13 am at 2:13 am #696391popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Before you go about rebuking people, think about all the times somebody rebuked you and it had a positive effect.
I can’t think of any! I must be a real big rasha!
Rebuking people, especially strangers does not usually have positive effects.September 13, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #696392smartcookieMember
I, With my skirt well below my knee, am the “yunchiest” lady around because today it’s not fashionable to dress tzniusdig.September 13, 2010 2:29 am at 2:29 am #696393artchillParticipant
For the first time, we see eye to eye!!September 13, 2010 2:30 am at 2:30 am #696394
popa, so what exactly do you propose be done about this epidemic? actually plague is more apt. the rabbonim have been crying out about it for years. the gedolim have put together tznius symposiums. yet the prutzas keep getting bolder. so the tears of anguish have fallen on deaf ears. the lectures have not gotten us far. teaching about it has fallen short. and you say not to rebuke. what else would at least make a dent?September 13, 2010 2:38 am at 2:38 am #696395cofeefanMember
i agree that there is a massive problem ( i work in a boys school and you wouldn’t believe the way some mothers come to pick up their sons….) but i also agree that rebuking strangers in public is not the answer because it can sometimes have the complete opposite effect than desired….. maybe if someone people respected said something about it it could help….September 13, 2010 2:39 am at 2:39 am #696396avramiParticipant
i think that the situation has gone too far, but we must realize that this is up to the rabbonim to take care of it and we have to mind our own business and worry for our wives and daughters. the more it gets spoken about especially in this format, our bnos yisroel will even to it more lehachis, so lets just skip this topic and leave it for the gedolim…..September 13, 2010 3:11 am at 3:11 am #696397maynishMember
I totally agree. This is seen even when they pick their “chushiv” husband up from “kollel”. what is he learning all day? They should be embarrassed of the kovod hatorah.September 13, 2010 3:16 am at 3:16 am #696398
I did not mean to say they will have a re-awakening — they just may feel the pressure and be afraid to do it.
To mind one’s own business when one could be moche is wrong! These women, mestama, would not do it in many places in E.Y. Why?! — food for thought.September 13, 2010 3:17 am at 3:17 am #696399maynishMember
And let me tell u all parents out there…. THIS IS ALL STARTING WHEN U SEND THEM OFF TO ISRAEL> first the skirt is picked up a little.. then it is borrowing her friends clothes … then its “oh mommy theres a HUGE sale in the mall im going to buy new clothes .. i didn’t buy anything all year…
and when they come home UR SHOCKED>>>>> WAKE UP>>!!!!
And this is just how they look and imagine what they were doing.
and to top this all off… i love when they go and marry AIDELEEE yeshiva guys that are marrying a “beis yakov girl from a very PROMENENT family” BE CAREFUL OUT THERE>>>>
Like our rabbis say. the ONLY way we can help is to daven.. i have in mind everyday hashivainu avinu le’torah secah…. Amen.September 13, 2010 3:38 am at 3:38 am #696400
One of the reasons that the maskilim had less success by the Chassidim was because the latter were more forceful in their macho’os, while the Litvaks were more timid. I am a Litvak, by the way.September 13, 2010 3:46 am at 3:46 am #696401kapustaParticipant
Could someone clarify something for me? Is the issue being discussed here the frum BY girls who wear skirts just above the knee, or the girls who are frum, not BY, never associated themselves in any way with a BY mentality and are wearing skirts above the knee?
Here is a view from someone who went through the BY system (who doesn’t wear any short skirts, and very much admits that there is an issue): Tznius is probably the most often used topic for a Yom Iyun/Shabbaton etc. I think I can honestly say at this point in my life that I have heard too much about Tznius. It is overused MUCH too much. As someone once very well pointed out to me, if a person has one food which he loves and eats it every day for a year, at the end of a year the food is no different than any other. Tznius is a beautiful thing, and its a shame for something so beautiful to be labeled as “boring”. When it is forced down the throats of young girls, it is cast aside as the filler topic that teachers talk about when they need a lesson to bring out, and the brain completely shuts down. To explain once, twice, and maybe even three times the beauty of Tznius is great. But fifty three times is not good. Rebuking more probably wont work, nor will talking about the issue more. Whoever isn’t causing an issue with tznius, knows about it, and the people who are the issue, aren’t going to speeches. What we are doing now obviously isn’t working!!! Why wont we learn the lesson and instead of stuffing something into a hole, make a new hole?!
We need something new.
(Sorry for ranting.)September 13, 2010 4:05 am at 4:05 am #696402
Talking too much does not help, talking too little does not help — pressure might. And, yes, we are talking about BY-type girls.September 13, 2010 4:31 am at 4:31 am #696403
kapusta, yes, this pandemic (and that is an understatement) is occurring amongst some BY types, unfortunately, as mdd said. (amongst some non-BY girls this issue has long been a problem and even worse.) if you feel one method discussed to cure this illness is ineffective please please share what you feel IS effective. to do nothing or ignore it is certainly not the solution and will leave it untreated and allow it to get worse, as it already has.September 13, 2010 4:42 am at 4:42 am #696404WIYMember
Maybe Im wrong but I think that the only thing we can do is educate our children inside the home about whats right and wrong. Buy them books on Tznius and most importantly the mother has to be a good example of looking good while dressed Tznius.
It hurts me to say this but we have no Gedolim who have the power to do anything to change the situation. Im sure Rav Matisyahu Salomon can cry and scream until he is hoarse and at best a few people will listen and maybe dress differently for a few weeks.
The schools are not doing their jobs or what they are doing is just not working because its not enough. We need to fortify our homes.
I wrote this a few months back and I will say it briefly again. Our homes must be a sanctuary from the outside world. If we bring in the non Jewish shmutz like the news papers, magazines, music, tv, movies, novels….then we are polluting our senses and desensitizing our neshamos to purity and wholesome hashkafos ideas and ideals. A girl exposed to the junk of the non Jewish world (which is obsessed with sex and promiscuity) will automatically feel a pull towards untzniusdik dress. It will likely even be subconscious. She wont know why she wants it but she will want it strongly.
Its a huge problem but all I can say is that the people I know who are Tznius stay far away from the non Jewish shmutz media and entertainment.
You see my point is that untznius dress is not the cause of our problems its an effect of other actions. We need to cut things off at the root. The root is the connection to outside influences.
I may add that another powerful influence for a girl can be bad friends or friends who are headed that way and have started with the untzniusdig dress. So even a girl who has no access to non Jewish things (very UNcommon, there are “good” girls who read filthy novels that destroy their sensitivities) can still be influenced by bad friends. But it is highly probable that these girls themselves have been poisoned by non Jewish sources.
So bottom line if we want our kids to live up to a higher standard we have to live up to a higher standard an not allow certain things into our houses even for ourselves. The biggest hypocrites are the parents with the TV in the bedrooms who say “only for parents” most kids see right through that and lose all respect for the parents and frumkiet which they begin to see as fake and do whatever you want, make your own rules.September 13, 2010 5:01 am at 5:01 am #696405misterhockMember
i think that some of men want their wifes to dress the way they do. if the men dont stop idolizing ‘hollywood styles’ then the women are never going to change. be it 5 inch heels or the long red toenails that you could see througt the open toe shoes with no socks! the solution rests in the mans court…September 13, 2010 6:14 am at 6:14 am #696406mischiefmakerMember
I agree with kapusta’s rant that tznius is spoken wayyyyyyy too much about. Besides, when its spoken about it should be spoken about in the right way. The speaker should know what crowd they’re speaking to. Also, i find that things that are sensitivities are being stressed more than halacha. First get people covering their knees and then complain about the tanks and bright colored cloths. I don’t think speakers help though, at this point. I think the vaad in lakewood shouldn’t support any schools that don’t enforce the halachas on the parents and students. There aren’t many other ways to fight the peer pressures out there.September 13, 2010 6:25 am at 6:25 am #696407ramateshkolianMember
galus everyone…everything is going down hill. I can barely think of one issue, one mitzva that’s not suffering. We’re all confused and lacking clarity. Even rabbanim and leaders. It’s part of galus and if you really care about the shchina, you will daven very hard during this time and always that mashiach come….September 13, 2010 10:09 am at 10:09 am #696408
Misterhock is 150% correct. Blame the husbands and fathers who pay for the clothes and look the other way when objectionable clothing is purchased and worn.September 13, 2010 11:24 am at 11:24 am #696409whatrutalkingabtMember
I agree 100% with misterhock. This is not only the womens problem- why do you think they dress the way they do? Because they want to impress their husbands so he wont be impressed by every other lady on the street. Its a huge problem but it has to be addressed to both the men and women. Maybe if each man would make sure his wife and daughters are dressing properly it would work. Like WellInformedYid said- we have to enforce it within the home. And its the same problem with those long showy shaitels that everyone prances around in.
And BTW- artchill and popa- it definitely does help when you get rebuke from an outside person. Years ago, I had more than one occasion that I tried to make something pass for tznius and someone came over to me and told me I’m sorry for saying this and I hope you are moichel me but this and this is not so tznius. And let me tell I was so embarrassed that I never wore that thing againSeptember 13, 2010 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #696411HaKatanParticipant
While I agree that men should be very clear with their wives as to what is acceptable and what is not, the excuse that the husband wants her to look good is not an excuse for her to dress inappropriately and it cannot, therefore, shift the blame to the husband if they both know better.
In other words, if both know very well that it is wrong to behave and dress like a zona, then she can still dress differently at home than in public. But in public (and in private, too, for that matter), her obligation is to dress like a bas melech whose kavod is reflected from within, no matter what anyone else thinks or feels about it.September 13, 2010 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #696413from Long IslandParticipant
Please don’t knock the “modern Orthodox schools” My girls attended a HS on Long Island that is labeled Modern Orthodox.
The school dress code was ankle length skirts – NO EXCUSES. ALL the girls wore long skirts, no slits, no buttons, etc.
I think a problem stems from being a “Kallah Maidel” When I was in HS in Brooklyn, during the 60’s and the mini skirt era, we all dressed Tzniusdically UNTIL we turned 16. Once we became old enough to be “looked over”, our Moms dressed us fashionably with make-up and heels. And the problems began. This is not a NEW problem, this is a fashion problem !!
The girls on Long Island are NEVER told to dress up when they go to school, they are told to dress down. And while the look is somewhat sloppy, ie: long schleppy skirts with oversized sweatshirts, as mothers, we are happy with the look and the LACK of focus on fashion !!September 13, 2010 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #696414dunnoMember
Constantly talking about tznius doesn’t help the problem. And like many others mentioned, rebuking a person will likely have the opposite effect. I think the only way to enforce tznius is for teachers to infuse students with a love of yiddishkeit. When you love someone you want to do things that make them happy. So too here. Instill a love of being Jewish and kids will want to follow halachos. In addition, when tznius is actually being discussed, it’s the halachos that should be focused on rather than the sensitivities. If kids hear an extreme view said to be halacha they not only won’t follow the stringency but will assume that actual halacha is also the extreme. I am not saying not to discuss sensitivities at all. But it should be clearly differentiated from what’s halacha.September 13, 2010 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #696416aries2756Participant
If you want to influence others, you have to do it with a “gitte neshoma” and not with harsh words and pre-judgments. The only way to impress the beauty of tznius on others is to be a beautiful example of all that is good about Yiddishkeit and tnius. If one goes around pointing fingers you impress upon others the reason one should not care about tznius, to remove themselves from finger pointers and busybodies. There are ways to teach without insulting or embarrassing another person. For instance “that is such a lovely skirt, my daughter is a bit taller than you, do you think she can get it with a longer skirt so it covers her knees in all situations?”
Let us all start this new year with a new attitude, and that is to make Ahavas Yisroel a priority.
EDITEDSeptember 13, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #696417
It is normally the role of the husband/father to ensure proper hashkafa is found in the home. This includes Tznius. As a husband and father, I agree that my wife is able to impart ideas about tznius to my daughter, way better than I can ever hope to, however, my wife looks to me for guidance on what it and is not proper, in fact, she demands it, as the husband/father of the family. So, in many ways this does in fact start with the men.
Another thing that simply does not help this discussion in any way are senten ces such as this “In other words, if both know very well that it is wrong to behave and dress like a zona,”. Zona? Hyperbole such as this simply turns people off.September 13, 2010 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #696418Pashuteh YidMember
I agree that tznius is spoken about too much. The lesson should be one dresses with dignity, and from the knees to the chest to the upper arms are covered at all times. This should be it.
There is no halacha that one cannot wear high heels. It is a matter of judgment. If it is a halacha, then please tell me exactly how many inches is the max for a heel. One author discusses the exact colors of socks because of refelecting light. This is not halacha, either. He also forbids too long skirts or denim skirts. Please show me where this is forbidden.
I once saw a camp list for my daughter and it said the zipper or the pockets of the skirt could only be in the front or the back. I don’t remember which one and which way now. I actually fought with my daughter and made her feel bad. I was naive.
Let us not make up new things and focus on the actual halacha. Driving girls crazy with things like how tight the sleeves can be has no basis in halacha either. If you decide to invent new daily chumras, you will lose big time in the end. A girl is allowed to make herself attractive, and when dating, her father is supposed to dress her so well that people jump on her (shehakol yikfitzu aleha).
Note that Reb Moshe writes that in a place where the custom of all the women is to dress a certain way which does not conform to halachic requirements, while we must encourage our daughters to dress better for extra tznius, it is not halchachically considered pritzus, since it is the normal mode of dress (I guess within certain obvious limits).
Most girls have neshamos tehoros and would never even know that they can be machsil men, as they do not consider themselves so attractive. Even when they make a tznius mistake, they do it without even realizing that anybody would look there. They are innocent and pure maidelach. Most never realize what these things are all about until they get married.
If one puts a bug in their head that they are big-time objects and this is drummed into them every day at school, then what does that do to their neshamos? Let us make our homes clean, as mentioned before, from improper things, and let us keep their neshamos pure. Get them so involved with their schoolwork and chessed projects that they don’t have time for any other thoughts to creep into their heads.
EDITEDSeptember 13, 2010 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #696419
Soft words and “teaching about the beauty of…” do not help some people, pressure may. But it is true, that it is very important to differentiate between Halacha and sensetivities (such as wearing high heels etc.).September 13, 2010 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #696423HashemLovesMeMember
from another perspective:
i was brought up totally frum. i am a bais yaakov girl. i am out of high school. i am out of seminary. i have learned about tznius over and over and over, and it IS a beautiful thing. we had one yom iyun in seminary about tznius, and it was ssssoooooo inspiring.
but you know what? I have a skirt. it is four inches below my knee. my sister thinks it’s too short. my mother thinks it’s fine. i wear it on shabbos. to shul. none of the women have ever told me anything. the rebbetzin has never told me anything, nor has she given me any looks when i go over to her to wish her good shabbos. i am complimented on this skirt.
you know what? when it comes to tznius, ppl are on different levels. what some ppl see as short, others might think is ok. what some ppl see as tight, some might see as fine. when i look at someone, i don’t measure how long her skirt is. what hits me first is whether or not the whole outfit gives off a nice, put together, bais yaakov look (obviously, if i saw someone with a skirt that was so obviously too short, she would not fit in this category). now, i am speaking for myself, here. i personally think that the skirt that i have is fine. and if ppl would one day start coming up to me and criticizing me about the length of this skirt, if it would make me think again about it, i still wouldn’t get rid of it right away. it would be hard for me. not everyone can change their standards of tznius in a split second. if you can, kol hakavod. apparently, i’m not on that level yet. maybe with H-Shem’s help, one day i will be. maybe one day i will notice that my skirt is too short. maybe one day i will get rid of it, but it’s gonna take some time.
so please, i know that tznius is very precious and can’t be messed with, but not everyone is on your level. that’s what we are in this world for, to come closer to H-Shem, to perfect ourselves. if we would all be perfect already, there would be no reason for us to exist.September 13, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #696425
mdd, you say that pressure “may” help some people. You’re right – it “may.” But I wouldn’t take the risk. I think it’s safe to say that probably 80% of people, especially young girls, will rebel if pressured too much, will resent the object of the pressure, and will chas veshalom go to the opposite extreme in defiance and start dressing really pritzusdik, as opposed to wearing a shirt that’s just a bit too tight or a skirt that doesn’t cover when they get into a car. No, pressure is not the answer unless you’re working on a case-by-case basis and KNOW for a fact that it will help one specific person with whom you’re working.
Pashuteh Yid, the pockets go in the front and the zipper in the back 🙂 What did you fight about with your daughter? She wanted to wear a skirt that didn’t fit the dress code and you didn’t let, or the other way around?
apushutayid (these SNs are getting confusing!), thank you for bringing up the “zona” point. I wanted to say the same thing. Name-calling will get you nowhere, at best; at worst, it will turn people off. The people that we’re discussing are not dressing like zonas, b”H, and we don’t want them to try to show us what zonas dress like to prove us wrong, if you get my drift.
I for one would be disgusted if some stranger ever told me that I was dressed improperly, and would tell them that in no uncertain terms. How do you know that I’m not a baalas teshuva who is trying to improve little by little? How do you know that this is not considered a major change for me? (Incidentally, I’m not, but many are.) A comment like that could make someone decide that their efforts are not worth it anymore and just give up on trying to become better. Don’t do it. It’s not worth it. You could turn someone off for good, chas veshalom, and you wouldn’t want that to happen on your account, would you? Strangers are not your business. If you want to rebuke someone for tznius issues, start with your own family and see how that goes over. And then – don’t move on to anyone else! It’s not your place!September 13, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #696426HelpfulMember
I completely agree with mdd. We not only have a mitzvah of tochocho, we have a chiyuv of tochocho. We are obligated halachicly to rebuke a sinning prutza. And while calling them a zona is usually overstating it, prutza is 100% clearly the correct and appropriate term for these sinners.September 13, 2010 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #696427oomisParticipant
“Zona? Hyperbole such as this simply turns people off. “
That is exactly what I think. Equating a schoolgirl who wears a shorter skirt than you believe to be tzniusdig (covers the knees, but might not when they get into a car), or slightly above the elbow sleeves, with an actual hooker, is not just hyperbole. It is exactly the thing that causes some girls to believe that tznius is all nonsense. A zona is a zona, and not a young lady who dresses in a way of which you do not approve, but is surely not slutty.September 13, 2010 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #696428
No. NO! Prutza is NOT appropriate. These women are usually NOT bad enough to warrant the term “prutza.” A skirt that covers while walking and standing does NOT deserve to be called pritzusdik.
I have a sister-in-law who was OTD for a while, and now b”H is back on track. She dresses VERY differently than her mother and sisters (and SILs) – her collarbone is not always covered, some skirts are too short (and some may consider others too long), and she sometimes doesn’t wear socks or cover her elbows. I can guarantee you that if someone were to approach her and tell her that she is not dressed appropriately, it would cause her to have a major setback. Her family and friends are just grateful that she is keeping Shabbos and other mitzvos. She is one of the strongest people I know, and I admire her greatly. I would never DARE tell her that she is not tznius, and I’m family!
While we have a chiyuv of tochacha, we still need to know when it is appropriate to give tochacha and when to keep your mouth shut. It is simply NOT appropriate and most likely harmful to tell a perfect stranger that their skirt is too short. I would rather have to give a din v’cheshbon for not giving tochacha than for turning someone further off, causing her to dress less tznius, or making her go off the derech. NOT okay.September 13, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #696429ramateshkolianMember
I am curious about one thing: why does this bother people sooo much? Why when they see someone wearing something inappropriate, they get angry at the person? It really brings up interesting emotions not found by other transgressions. And don’t answer Kavod Shamayim, because if we really cared deeply about that, well, things would be a lot different. So why? Is it because you’re scared your husband will see them? Please answer honestly.September 13, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #696430HelpfulMember
Oomis, those you describe are definitly not zonas, but they just as definitely they are prutzas. Uncovered knees getting into a car or uncovered elbows most definitly falls into the category of a prutza.September 13, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #696432
“Uncovered knees getting into a car or uncovered elbows most definitly falls into the category of a prutza.”
I hate to sound juvenile, but who says? And don’t tell me Rabbi Falk.September 13, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #696433
I wonder if those who yell “zona”, “prutza” and hide under the guise of “kavod shamayim” yell just as loud and just as long about those who create a chillul hashem by double parking, try to return something that they can not (or should not), argue long and loud with the sales associates who try to collect sales tax, those who are rude to the teller in the bank (dressed tzniusdik to the letter of every chumra and clearly identified as jewish of course) (the list is endless)?
I cant find anywhere on YWN anyone beseeching yidden to wake up and stop creating a chillul hashem in all their interactions. Why not?September 13, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #696434WIYMember
Besides what I wrote previously, I would like to add that in my opinion, most issues in Yiddishkiet stem from a lack of knowledge and adherence to Halacha. If people knew Halacha and tried to keep it we would all be fine. It may sound simple but its a fact. We have a shulchon oruch which tells us how to live. Unfortunately most men dont know how to read one and have no clue of 95%+ of what it says in there and most women are not properly versed in the Halachos they need to know.
My life changed drastically when I was Mekabel to start learning and LIVING Halacha. It is HARD and requires sacrifice and real honesty but it is so rewarding knowing that I am living how Hashem wants me to and knowing that I will merit so much more Hashgacha Pratis in my life for those choices.September 13, 2010 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #696435
IS the term Prutza appropriate? I have yet to see a single gadol who speaks or writes (or has spoken and written) about tznius issues, use this term the way it is being used and about those it is being used here. Of course, the YWN gedolim and poskim are free to use whatever terms they want.September 13, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #696436cokeMember
I think the short skirt buisiness has gotten out of hand! I was just on the phone with a someone who mentioned she was outside a vort, waiting for someone to come into the car and it suddenly hit her that every single lady that passed was wearing a skirt that was too short! What’s going on here? Do we want Moshiach or not? I know it’s a hard thing to work on, but who said things have to be easy…. let’s all work on this together! Thank you for bringing up this topic….September 13, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #696437
“We not only have a mitzvah of tochocho, we have a chiyuv of tochocho. We are obligated halachicly to rebuke a sinning prutza. “
Learn through hilchos deos, the nosei keilim and THEN come back and give tochacha and do it the right way. Please.September 13, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #696438cokeMember
i forgot to mention that then the girls want to know why the boys look at them….Stop always being perfectly dressed…..IN SHORT SKIRT! THEY ARE ATTRACTIVESeptember 13, 2010 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #696439
“Do we want Moshiach or not? I know it’s a hard thing to work on, but who said things have to be easy…. let’s all work on this together! “
If everyone worked on their own shortcomings instead of focusing on the shortcomings of everyone else, we stand a good chance of seeing moshiach. Today.September 13, 2010 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #696440shindyMember
I think that one of the problems is that the Bais Yaakov’s installed a uniform policy instead of dealing with tznius in the school. This is a good and easy solution in the classroom but what are the girls wearing at home and on shabbos? Maybe we should have a no uniform policy but you have to buy clothing that fits with the school standards and skirt lengths.
I also think it is very important for mothers to wear long skirts and be an example for their daughters. And husbands should tell their wives in a gentle way that the skirt is too short and he would like her to wear longer skirts.
I was at a shivah house and frum women came in with short skirts and when they sat down it was REALLY not tznius. I felt like giving them a blanket or something to cover their legs because nebach they kept tugging and pulling down their skirt to cover but to no avail.
May Hashem send us the strength we need to fight all our Yaatzer Horos and send the geulah!September 13, 2010 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #696441
apushatayid, thank you! It disgusts me to no end when I see people making a chillul Hashem (while dressed in a way that could almost be considered untznius because they attract so much attention) – I have had tellers and cashiers thank me for being so pleasant and polite, and I can tell that they are exasperated by the way they are treated in my primarily “frum” town. So to all those people – how would you feel if someone told you that you were making a chillul Hashem by double-parking (“it’s only for a minute!”), by leaving your kids outside a store or letting them run loose while you leisurely shop (ditto), by not saying thank you to a woman who holds the door open for you (“pas nisht for me to look at, kal v’chomer talk to, someone of the opposite gender”)… the list goes on and on.
If you don’t have a problem in chillul Hashem, pick any example. Do you have a hard time controlling your anger? Imagine you yell at your kid in public and a stranger comes up to you and says “Idol worshiper! Chazal say that someone who loses their temper is like one who serves avoda zara! Repent, sinner!” Do you think that would help? Would you vow to never get angry again? Or would you turn on them and tell them to mind their own business? I think we all know the answer to that one… Just insert your primary fault into this situation and see how you’d deal with it. Everyone has their struggles; don’t make things harder for them.September 13, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #696442MoqMember
ACT ONE, SCENE SEVEN HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO.
OP: Women are so prust! We must give them tochacha!
FrumGuy: Yes! If only we would throw bleach at them!
WorkingOutMyAngeAtBaisYakov: come on! It’s so much worse to call people bad names! And I heard from my random seminary teacher a irrelevant vort which means you have be nice to everyone!
YeshivishYUguy: Yes, and Halachically speaking there are many halachos! Please see all relevant sources and Ravs! I happen to personally know of psak given to an irrelevant situation in an irrelevant place! It may have even been the Rav himself!
FrumGuy: And burn tires!
TiredBaalBus: Yes! And you never know where people are coming from! And it’s the fault of the Roshey Yeshivas, anyway! And the kollel guys. And my mother-in-law. And her mother-in-law. Back to the first mother-in-law!
EuropeanBubby: It because of the schmutz we bring into our home! The radio! Gevalt!
WorkingOutMyAngerAtBaisYakov: And besides, you need to have self-control? Why are you looking at me? Just because I’m exposed in a public place is my own private public place business! You are so prust!
FrumGuy: TIRES! And Bleach! And bleached tires! Down with the evil prutsas! We need to throw them while blindfolded, of course.
KollelWife: We need to show everyone the real , true, beauty and essence of the baas yisrael!
AngryFrumLady: Don’t you start with the holy mother-in-laws! But it is the Roshey Yeshivas fault!
FrumGuy: You are all going mamish mamish to gehenenom! It says in mesechta chagiga 108b and in Shabbos 160a and in Bava Basra 207a that anyone who is not like me is mamish mamish not geshmak!
And Maran Rashkebehag Rabbi Falk Shlita brings down seventy hundred more mareh mekomos.
Come on, it is the aseres yemey teshuvah. Can’t we all look inward? Just a little bit? Aren’t there any halachos we can discuss? Not just smash our personal haskafos against each other?
Is this really going to help anybody?
We’ve kind of done this a few times. Come now, each of us has where to look inward.
Certainly tochacha is only relevant when it has actual purpose coming from it?
PS: I do not refer to anyone specifically with my pseudo screen names. Merely the tired pattern that gets played, over and over again when anything comes to tzinius.September 13, 2010 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #696443blinkyParticipant
Im in a dillemma. Im very concious to make sure my skirts cover my knee at all times. I just bought a very nice straight skirt- when im standing it covers way below my knee (at least 4 inches) And when im sitting it also covers. But when i got into a car my skirt rode up a little to make me feel uncomfortable. I really like the skirt and it covers all the time its just cars thats the problem. I don’t know what to do. I don’t think lengthening it will help. Is it wrong to wear it and just be extra careful while getting in a car?
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