Should a 2nd date be protocol ?
Home › Forums › Shidduchim › Should a 2nd date be protocol ?
- This topic has 53 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 9 months ago by Sacrilege.
August 10, 2010 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #592135shtultz20Member
What do you think? Should a girl or guy decide after 1 date that “it’s not for me” or should they give it another shot?August 10, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #692803HennyKMember
That depends on what basis the girl or boy says “it’s not for me”August 10, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #692804
it depends on a number of factors
pretty complex decision
there should be no “protocol”
anecdote, someone i know:
plonis went on a date with ploni and decided not for her
two years later they went out again
they got marriedAugust 10, 2010 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #692805
I used to give each girl a second date no matter how the first one went so that they shouldn’t think I said no because of their looks. Although if it was going really bad I’d probably do something to get her to say no.
In one particular case, when the shadchan was a relative, I told her that it’s a definite no but I wanted to go out again in order not to hurt her feelings. Luckily the girl said the same thing and there was no second date.August 10, 2010 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #692806
Mi k’amcha YisroelAugust 10, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #692807yentishParticipant
the answer to your question is an unequivocal NO!!! some dates are just so bad that forcing a 2nd one for no reason is a complete waste of time. before anyone starts with their excuses of ‘nobody is themselves on a first date’….’you have to give it a chance’ etc. i say to them that to make a 2nd date required would probably just worsen the shidduch crisis situation that we’re already in. you cant force people to like each other. period. the boys seem to have all the veto power in the shidduch world, up until the dating actually starts. a girl does not have to say yes just because the boy does.
and by the way, kudos to dr. pepper for giving a girl a second date no matter what. that’s very classy. eventhough if you had a miserable time the girl probably did also.August 10, 2010 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #692808
Unless the person did something truly offensive on the date, a second date should take place, IMO. Many people are not themselves on a first date, they are shy, nervous, anxious about making a good impression (and end up doing the opposite). A second chance is a good idea.August 10, 2010 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #692809apushatayidParticipant
The only protocol there should be is mentchlechkeit.August 10, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #692810
FWIW, IMHO, if one is going to err, it should be on the side of giving someone a 2nd date, even if the first didn’t go as planned. That being said, however, there are certainly times when one can tell after the first date that there is zero possibility.
The WolfAugust 10, 2010 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #692811shtultz20Member
Well, I must say, that if one side wants to give it a 2nd try, it couldn’t have been too bad.August 10, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #692812sms007Member
unless the first day was a horror, i feel there should be a second. there are many stories of couples who didn’t think it would work on the first, but went anyway so not to hurt the other’s feelings, and they got marriedAugust 10, 2010 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #692813pantherMember
most seem to say that unless you absolutely think it’s no then you can give it a try.August 11, 2010 2:21 am at 2:21 am #692814
(Especially if it is a Beshow.)August 11, 2010 3:26 am at 3:26 am #692815apushatayidParticipant
I was under the impression that if one of the parties traveled quite a distance, then several dates were a given unless the person turned out to be an axe murderer or something.
I traveled from NYC to Canada to go out with a girl. The first date was on ereve shabbos. I had an awful time and couldn’t stand the girl, and I was sure she couldn’t stand me, yet I was told she was expectin my call before shabbos to arrange to meet again after shabbos. Turns out she said that because she was told “hey, he came from ny, you can’t say no after one time its not fair to him”.
Is this in fact one of the “rules” today. Its close to 20 years since I’ve dated anyone but my wife.August 11, 2010 3:30 am at 3:30 am #692816charliehallParticipant
Many times I went out on a single date but not a second date; it was clear that we were not compatible.
I proposed marriage to my wife on our second date and she accepted; we remain happily married.August 11, 2010 3:32 am at 3:32 am #692817
Yes. If you travel long distance, there are generally two dates.August 11, 2010 4:09 am at 4:09 am #692818rebbitzenMember
if its really really bad, and he/she really feels like there’s nothing in common and nothing to work with..then you’re not doing anyone a favor by making the other party shlep/get all ready…for nothingAugust 11, 2010 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #692819pantherMember
Most times unless it was one of those really bad dates as popa_bar_abba said if the person is from out of town and you dont have anything against the other one then it’s generally accepted to go out again.August 11, 2010 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #692820
I’m not trying to be arrogant (it wasn’t through my merits that I was in this situation, rather it’s because I’m a male) but I always had a large selection of potential dates, including many who “already agreed to go out and is just waiting to hear a ‘yes'”.
Nevertheless, there was still some pain in being rejected- even if I asked for it by trying to disprove Fermats Last Theorem on a first date.
Now look at it from the other side. Some girls have to wait weeks or even months to get a date. Imagine the hurt feelings of not giving them a second date. I still remember my sisters and their friends discussing how some of them “just couldn’t ever get to a second date”.
Isn’t it worth a few dollars and a couple of hours of your precious time to save another persons self esteem?
(I know most people will not agree with this, but I heard a story where a Rebbe suggested a shidduch to a Talmid and the Talmid wasn’t interested. The Rebbe asked him to go out with her anyway- just to boost her self esteem- since she hadn’t had a date in months.)August 11, 2010 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #692821Max WellMember
A date is for tachlis, not “to have a good time”. (That may occur of course, but that isn’t the goal.) And to go on a date where you are already certain it isn’t going to be, is an extreme lack of tznius.August 11, 2010 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #692822gavra_at_workParticipant
And to go on a date where you are already certain it isn’t going to be, is an extreme lack of tznius.
And Kavod Habriyos, as well as Genaivas Da’as.
Of course, the idea is not to completely close off the possibility of Tachlis, but if it is (for example, you feel she is really ugly, or any other Chisaron that you can’t get your mind off), I agree with maxwell.August 11, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #692823
trying to disprove Fermats Last Theorem
There’s your problem, Dr. Pepper! I’m guessing these dates happened before my formal proof of said theorem was accepted in the mathematical community. Numerical analysis has been booming ever since.August 11, 2010 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #692824Max WellMember
I’m guessing these dates happened before my formal proof of said theorem was accepted in the mathematical community.
C’mon, squeak. I don’t think Dr. P is that old!August 11, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #692825
Max, it wasn’t that long ago. Fermat was, but not the formal proof.August 11, 2010 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #692826nachasMember
If there was really nothing wrong with the boy or girl (being rude,nasty to people or anything against halacha ect.)only not “hitting it off” together, I think they should give it another chance. They could be nervous and not really be themselves.
I know from experience, we just finished having sheva brachos for my daughter and her chasson. My daughter went out with her chasson on their first date which lasted only an hour, she came home and told me she had nothing to talk to him about and he was not for her, he went home and said the same thing. I pushed her to go out one more time and he agreed to go out again (the shaddchan had a lot to do with it) and the rest is history (it really took five dates before it really clicked). Now they have so much to talk about and are so much alike in their thinking and hopefully they will always stay this happy with each other.August 11, 2010 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #692827☕️coffee addictParticipant
i’m just starting to read the posts but this is my take on it.
if the guy/girl had to fly in i would definitely say yes there should be a protocol (Actually happened to me and i was stuck on the second date with no one to go out with)
if not then I think 1 date is fine if it’s not a matzav, but if the guy/girl is being nitpicky i say give it a second tryAugust 11, 2010 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #692828SJSinNYCMember
It also depends how phone conversations go.
A friend had a few great phone conversations with a guy (long distance between them, so they wanted to see if there was a reason to go on a real date). He came in and it was disasterous. She hemmed and hawed and finally went out with him again. It worked wonders. They are happily married with 3 kids for almost 10 years now.August 11, 2010 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #692829
I agree with you 100% but the question is- where do you draw the line?
My sister went out with a guy who abruptly stood up and said, “if we leave now, I can still catch second seder”. How holy is that?
Would you say that once the guy realises she’s not for him he has to leave right away? Is he allowed to drive her home or does he have to pay for a taxi for her?
Hopefully you agree that he should finish the date like a mentch and drive her home. For some people the date isn’t finished until he takes her out a second time so it isn’t too depressing.
Going out more than 2 or 3 times when one knows it’s not happening is, in my opinion, Gneivas Daas. I don’t feel that way about a second date.
There was a story going around yeshiva while I was dating about a guy who opened the car door for the girl after the date for the ride home. The girl reached in and opened the button to the back door. She explained to the guy that her Rebbetzin said she can’t sit in the front seat if she knows she’s going to say no. The guy said that his Rebbe said he can’t let the girl in the car if he knows he’s going to say no.August 11, 2010 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #692830
I was referring to this post http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/funny-shidduch-stories/page/3#post-43239 (which by the way, my brother has since informed has a sequel).August 11, 2010 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #692831
“And to go on a date where you are already certain it isn’t going to be, is an extreme lack of tznius. “
How? I am sure it is many things, but tznius has nothing to do with it. EVERYTHING is not about tznius, btw. Sometimes it is about common menschlechkeit, gneivas daas,etc. but not tznius.August 11, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #692832
Dr. P, from reading the story (funny, though confusing) I would still say that you meant trying to prove the theorem, not disprove.
If there’s a sequel, what are you waiting for? A promise for a second blurb?August 11, 2010 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #692833
Sorry if it was confusing. Her question was, “In your opinion, before it was actually proven, did you think Fermats Last Theorem would be proven or disproven?”
Being that I originally thought it would be disproven I explained why I though so. She then wanted to know how it was proven so I explained it in great detail. (I had just finished a course in abstract math and the teacher stressed the theorem so I knew more about it than your typical math nerd.)August 11, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #692834
I would be very interested to hear your explanation of why you thought it would be disproven. I always thought the opposite.
You may or may not know of an old short story about the mathematician who “sells his soul” to the devil if the devil can prove or disprove the theorem in 3 days. The story ends with the devil returning after 3 days and admitting he did not solve the puzzle, but then shows the mathematician his notes and says, “Now if I could just prove these two lemmas….”
Ever since I first read the story (I saw it in a 1950’s magazine, but it may not have been the first time it was published) I have had an interest in the theorem.August 11, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #692835
Now if I could just prove these two lemmas
i believe the singular of lemmings is lemming, not lemma.
and what does a game have to do with the theorem?
unless you are making a reference to game theory?August 11, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #692836
The explanation I gave her would never fly by you. Instead of hijacking this thread could we continue this conversation in a different thread?
Feel free to start a new thread. Or….feel free to hijack this one, it’s the CR way.
You also wanted to know the sequel to that story. Should I post it in the “Funny Shidduch Story” thread?August 11, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #692837
i believe the singular of lemmings is lemming, not lemma.
He wasn’t refering to the animal. He was referring to the mathematical concept.
The WolfAugust 11, 2010 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #692838
I guess i forgot this: 😉August 11, 2010 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #692839
I guess i forgot this: 😉
Don’t feel bad… that’s one step ahead of me. I never knew it to begin with.
The WolfAugust 11, 2010 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #692840HaQerMember
Max well: “A date is for tachlis, not “to have a good time”. (That may occur of course, but that isn’t the goal.) And to go on a date where you are already certain it isn’t going to be, is an extreme lack of tznius.”
Yes, dating is for the tachlis of getting married, but the way that we are advised to bring about this tachlis is to have a good time together.
gavra_at_work: “…And Kavod Habriyos, as well as Genaivas Da’as.
Of course, the idea is not to completely close off the possibility of Tachlis, but if it is (for example, you feel she is really ugly, or any other Chisaron that you can’t get your mind off), I agree with maxwell.”
This thread is dealing with whether one should go on a 2nd date if he “knows” it won’t work. I see 2 reasons why one should do this.
1) Perhaps he doesn’t really “know”, there are many stories of people who have said no after first date and were pushed to try a 2nd time and ended up married. If this is the reason you are trying a 2nd time, it would be considered “tachlis”.
2) Kavod HaBrioyos – If you dump a girl after a first date it can hurt her feelings. The concepts of mentchlichkeit, good Middos applies to member of the opposite gender as well. In my opinion derech eretz overrides the claim of lack of tznius that people are getting all up in arms over.August 11, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #692841
….feel free to hijack this one, it’s the CR way.
Thanks, I will (for a moment)
The explanation I gave her would never fly by you.
You overestimate me. Besides, I would make special allowance for any actuary who ventures into the foreign realm of real mathematics. <insert evil grin>
You also wanted to know the sequel to that story. Should I post it in the “Funny Shidduch Story” thread?
Yes, definitely- yoo halloo!August 12, 2010 9:17 am at 9:17 am #692842ummMember
My friend went out (with her husband) came back from first date and said NO WAY! She refused to go out again, saying it will NEVER work, he’s just so different in anything they discussed and he got her so nervous… Her mother convinced her that it’s not nice, especially since the boy was very enthusiastic and excited to continue. They went out again and the rest is history…
But on the other hand, I once dated a boy, who after the first date realized is not for me, (he was very enthusuastic) but I kept being convinced into another date, because maybe it could work, I have to give it a chance… Anyway, I went out with this guy FIVE times (did not enjoy a single date) and felt so cruel knowing I have no interest in marrying him. (The last date, he even tried getting a little ‘serious’ with me, and I’m thinking, DONT GO THERE, THIS IS HISTORY FROM THE SECOND YOU DROP ME OFF! (The reason I continued for so long was because each date got a DROP better, but at the end of the day, even if he got a little more manageable, he was not for me – and I could tell that from the first date.
(I want to add that lots of the pressure on me to keep dating him was from a shiur we had at the end of seminary, where we were told that lots of singles are still waiting around through their own fault, they say no to a boy for invalid reasons that dont really matter in a marriage, you have to be sure that you could never live with the guy before you say no… and I was so scared of pushing away my bashert. Everything must be taken with a pinch of salt.)August 12, 2010 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #692843
Umm, you reminded me of a boy I went out with also five times,knowing it would go nowhere, because he was a very nice person, and I simply was inexperienced with breaking up with someone. I kept thinking, give it a chance. But I was not attracted in any way to this nice person, and I could see he was starting to be emotionally attached. So very reluctantly I had to bite the bullet and tell him that I liked him very much as a friend (the kiss of death in any dating relationship, because it is code for : No way, no how). I learned a very valuable lesson from this incident. No matter what anyone tells you, if after three dates you still feel ABSOLUTELY no shaychus, it is 90% certain there is no point going out again. It is rare that it works out after that, and that’s why there are stories about it.August 12, 2010 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #692844gavra_at_workParticipant
(I want to add that lots of the pressure on me to keep dating him was from a shiur we had at the end of seminary, where we were told that lots of singles are still waiting around through their own fault, they say no to a boy for invalid reasons that dont really matter in a marriage, you have to be sure that you could never live with the guy before you say no… and I was so scared of pushing away my bashert. Everything must be taken with a pinch of salt.) emphasis mine.
Sounds like one of the most scary speaches I have ever heard.
To marry someone is a commitment for the rest of your life. It seems like that sem is producing and encouraging the divorce crisis.August 12, 2010 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #692845
I posted the sequel in the “Funny Shidduch Stories” thread.
Where would you like to continue the conversation about Fermats Last Theorem?August 12, 2010 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #692846SacrilegeMember
“A date is for tachlis, not “to have a good time”. “
I think youd be hard-pressed to find someone who goes on shidduch-dates for fun.August 12, 2010 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #692847
seminary, where we were told that lots of singles are still waiting around through their own fault, they say no to a boy for invalid reasons
That is quite horrifying. How is anybody supposed to date if they think every decision is either totally good or bad?
The better view is that there are many people one can marry and it will work reasonably well, if you try to make it work. So if you say no to someone, there will be another. If you marry someone who you are pretty happy with, it will work even if there is a “better” one out there.August 12, 2010 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #692848Pashuteh YidMember
When I was single, I made it a rule never to say no after one date. It is a crushing insult to the other person, if they are interested. After two dates, there is still no real attachment, so it won’t break anybody’s heart, and it won’t be hurtful to their self-esteem if one says no.
Imagine if one gets a string of no’s after a single date. The person may think they are ugly and totally lose their self-esteem and confidence. This overrides any consideration of tznius and any other stuff. As somebody said before, menschlachkeit is the ikar and the only purpose of the Torah.August 13, 2010 4:04 am at 4:04 am #692849
“Imagine if one gets a string of no’s after a single date. The person may think they are ugly and totally lose their self-esteem and confidence. This overrides any consideration of tznius and any other stuff. As somebody said before, menschlachkeit is the ikar and the only purpose of the Torah.”
Beautiful. To me this is the essence of ahavas Yisroel, worrying about another person’s feelings.August 15, 2010 2:32 am at 2:32 am #692850☕️coffee addictParticipant
Pasuteh Yid ,
why would they think they were ugly and not some other problem and find out what it is and then work on him/herselfAugust 15, 2010 5:34 am at 5:34 am #692851Lakewood MomMember
well said pashute yid
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.