January 22, 2013 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #607892
Hi,I hope all the readers here can help me with my dilemma. I was just offered a GREAT job. I’ve been looking for a while and as we all know, it’s not so easy to get good jobs these days. My only concern is that it is known that the office is more like a family (which has its perks) but, everyone calls each other by first names. Should I only accept the job on condition they call me Miss/Mrs. ____ instead of my first name? I don’t want to start the job off on the wrong foot with demands that they will think are unimportant. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thank you.January 22, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #922439
Men at the office should definitely not be calling or referring to you by your first name.January 22, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #922440
The standard in the business world is to call people by their first name. It doesn’t connote anything weird or “family-like” about the office.January 22, 2013 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #922441MCPMember
Only if your first name is Miss/Mrs.January 22, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #922442YentaParticipant
Tell them to call you Mr.
That should throw a twist on things.
Do it, and let us all know how things went in the office on your first day!January 22, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #922443
it depends what seminary you went to & how long ago you were thereJanuary 22, 2013 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #922444young menMember
It think this is very important to mention right away especially with the great challenges that are at work.so now the question is how do you say it.you should work on it with someone wheter its your rov good friend. I would tell you a story my Rov told me that he was sitting on the plane and some people are more stringent than others in regards to sitting next to women.and maybe the crew didnt look at it in such a good way so my rov when over to the crew and explained it in very nice way that we have such a thing as boundaries and that keeps us good even while the world is very low and its not showing disrespect to women he said something like this and they really appreciated that someone explained it to them. my humble opinion if you explain it the right way like for example,I am really looking forward working with you and working as a team and putting in my greatest effort etc.focusing on the boss,job.and than say with an introduction the beatiful thing about having boundaries which even some goyim praise us for that like a story about a professor from kansas written in a mishpacha magazine more than a year ago,so hatzlacha on the new job.and be able to continue being on your level in yidishkeit while having a great job.January 22, 2013 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #922445
First of all kudos to u on actually asking that question. Most girls today don’t even realize there would be an issue with that. Its very inappropriate for you and workmates to be on a first name basis. You should definitely insist on being called by your last name. In the beginning it may be uncomfortable and you might feel stupid but u have to stand up for what’s right. And in the end everyone 1 will probably respect you for it.January 22, 2013 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #922446
Lady: If you’re actually considering sabotaging your job over this, you ought to ask your rav first if that makes any sense.
And make sure he knows that it is the standard in almost every business office in America.January 22, 2013 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #922447MDGParticipant
“And make sure he knows that it is the standard in almost every business office in America.”
My wife works for a large corporation (over 30,000 employees) and when she refers to and has needed to communicate to a C-level officer, about 6 rungs higher than her in the corporate ladder, he is always referred to and called by first name.
When I was in corporate America, it was the same way; everyone was referred to by first name.January 22, 2013 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #922448agoodbygirlParticipant
First of all, even considering such a job is like placing a stumbling block in front of yourself. It is very inapropriate for a bas yisroel to be working with men. A true frum girl should find herself a teaching job and leave the money making up to Hashem.
All the Best of luck to you!January 22, 2013 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #922449
It is very inapropriate for a bas yisroel to be working with men. A true frum girl should find herself a teaching job and leave the money making up to Hashem.
That is not the opinion of the gedolim that I rely on.January 22, 2013 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #922450haifagirlParticipant
I worked for several men over the years, including some rabbis. All but one called me by my first name. And in that case, everyone in the office was called by Miss/Mrs. last name.January 22, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #922451artchillParticipant
When you are boss, have the employees call you Mrs. Boss. Until then, understand that all industries use first names when communicating.January 22, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #922452yaakov doeParticipant
Agoodbygirl raises an interesting point. I have come across many frum men and women who worked in tyhe non Jewish world without compromising their Yiddishkeit. Be sure to set an example, a kiddush Hashem at all times.
Using first names is the norm out there in the world, and although not our way is not a halachic problem. Avoid any socializing with them outside of the office which I’ve found is understood by co workers. By your dress and use of language you will stand apart anyway.January 22, 2013 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #922453MCPMember
Maybe you should be learning in Kollel instead of workingJanuary 22, 2013 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #922454
~Maybe you should be learning in Kollel instead of working~
yeah that would definitely solve the tznius issue.January 22, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #922455
A suggestion: maybe don’t insist on anything, but call everyone (at least the males) by their title and last name, and hope they do the same. If not, by calling them Mr., you’ve still made a statement.
Most important is that you act in a professional way.
Bring all possible ideas to your rov for guidance.January 22, 2013 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #922456apushatayidParticipant
Just curious. How did you identify yourself on your resume? At your interview? Did you lose your three billy goats gruff?January 22, 2013 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #922457
what’s with the coffee room and the troll jokes?? i dont get it.. ive never heard someone call another person a troll beforeJanuary 22, 2013 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #922458GeshmakManParticipant
Very simple – if you want to keep the Shtetl mihnagim, then stay home and don’t involve yourself with the “outside world” (and its higher paying jobs).
If you want to work in the real world, then you need to “deal” with some circumstances you might not feel comfortable with or used to.
I am not telling you to shake men’s hands or to eat treif Chas v Shalom, but being referred to by your first name is something that HAS to happen. This is not a Seminary Shabbaton where you are referred to as Miss/Mrs in front of your students.
At my job in BH a nice sized firm, everyone knows that that we Yidden eat Kosher, leave early for Yuntif/Shabbot and do not shake the hands of the opposite gender.
Please enlighten me as to what else we need to be makpid on?January 22, 2013 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #922459
@justwantagoodoy, a troll is someone like you, hardatwork, agoodbygirl and boredsouls. Kinda like me, myself, I, and ani.January 22, 2013 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #922460
Wow. That hurt. I don’t even know what a troll is, but I don’t think I am one. Why do you think its OK to just call people names with no valid reason.January 22, 2013 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #922461
wow u must have a pretty low self-esteem to be calling urself a trollJanuary 22, 2013 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #922462GeshmakManParticipant
Please don’t call her a Troll, she prefers to be called Miss/Mrs Troll!January 22, 2013 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #922463ShiraTobalaMember
You should be called by your first name in order to not cause a Chillul Hashem.Chas vicholila.January 22, 2013 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #922464yentapeshaMember
This is pure onaas dvarim, mamish not impressive. Each person has there own nekudas habichira and no one can decide on another’s name.January 22, 2013 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #922465Torah613TorahParticipant
PBA is right. It is considered normal to be called by your first name at work. I would personally prefer to be called Ms. Lastname, but I don’t want to stand out.
Instead, I usually insist on being called by my full first name by anyone who isn’t a family member.January 22, 2013 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #922466
For sure, bored. I was obviously referring to myself. *rolls eyes*
@hardatwork, I thought it was interesting that you appeared at the same exact time as justwantagooeytoy and seem to enjoy discussing the same ridiculous things. My judgement may have been premature. We shall see.January 22, 2013 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #922467apushatayidParticipant
So, how did you identify yourself on your resume. At the interview? Surely this is not the 1st time you are meeting with a representative of the company.January 22, 2013 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #922468January 22, 2013 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #922469
and ouch for calling me a troll!!! yet again!!January 22, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #922470
Some users profiles are interesting. For example:
January 21, 2013 (1 day)
January 21, 2013 (1 day)
Doesn’t like being called a troll.
the big bad wolf should ask mechila
January 21, 2013 (1 day)
learning part time
January 21, 2013 (1 day)
January 21, 2013 (21 hours)
January 22, 2013 (12 hours)
January 22, 2013 (2 hours)
That’s seven usernames created within the last day or so, all on this thread, and sharing a bunch of other threads as well.
I wonder if by any chance they know each other.January 22, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #922471
@CRuzer, I think you should find a new profession other then investigating. Not such a good fit for you.
@apushtayid, I had my name on top just plain, at the interview it really didn’t come up. I mean the interviewee introduced himself but that was all. I didn’t see this issue at the interview.January 22, 2013 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #922472yentapeshaMember
One that mocks someone else is really mocking that middah he himself posseses. What a pity to show your true colors when in reality you couldve helped and brought tremendous awareness of such a special, important mitzvah. Chaval on what was done and in the future i am confident that you will not breach it.January 22, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #922473
@CRabuzer, What with you? You seem to enjoy calling people names. For ex. at least 4 people trolls, then you called justwantagoodoy, justwantagooeytoy. So not cool.January 22, 2013 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #922474
sigh…January 22, 2013 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #922475oomisParticipant
I am not reading through the responses yet. I want you simply to ask yourself how important this job is to you. If you really want it, then PLEASE be a team player and be called by your first name. There was NO such thing as last names centuries ago, when we were more formal, and no one seemed to be concerned that it was a problem. If you insist on the formality that some people might advise you to do, claiming halachic or tzniusdig issues, (wrongly, in my humble opinion), then you will alienate everyone in your office and create an atmosphere of “I’m better than you are.” You will never comfortably hold on to a job with that type of a perceived attitude, people don’t like to feel you hold yourself higher.
If this were a more formal office, then you would be correct to expect the additional respect of being called Miss/Mrs. Whatever. But that is not the case in this office or in MOST offices today, so stop worrying so much about it, be called Sora, Rivka,Rochel, Leah, or whatever your name is, in the spirit in which EVERYONE is referred to by their given names, or do not take the job if it will bother you so much.
To be candid, most jobs will expect you to be a little more easygoing in this matter, so don’t be put off by that. Don’t compromise halachic issues in the office, like kashrus (when everyone is going out to the local deli or bar after work), or tznius issues (keep the men at a clear boundary), but your name is not one of those issues, unless someone is referring to you as “Honey” or “Sweetheart,” in which case you could gently say, My name is “Ploni.”January 22, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #922476
but her name isnt ploniJanuary 22, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #922477
CRuzer- whats with the sigh?? atleast give us a good OOYYYY!!!January 22, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #922478Veltz MeshugenerMember
One solution that nobody has mentioned yet is choosing a work name. It is easier if you have a distinctly Jewish name and will be working with non-Jews but even if the company is frum and the clientele is all frum, your boss should have no objections if you either a. choose a nickname that you don’t go by, and without explanation, tell him that’s what you’d like to go by at the office, or b. tell him that you are uncomfortable going by your first name, but don’t want to make waves, and would like to choose a different name for work.January 22, 2013 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #922479
hey cruzer r u by any chance the wolf? u guys have the same attitude!January 22, 2013 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #922480golferParticipant
Oomis, good choice not reading throught the responses. I can summarize for you- mostly the usual CR stuff about Trolls, Trolling, and who may or may not possibly be a troll.
Since you do seem to wish to respond to the OP, I wanted to comment on something you mentioned: “There was NO such thing as last names centuries ago.”
You are right about that. What you surely realize as well is that centuries ago, and even decades ago, it was not common for Jewish women to work in offices and businesses where there was a great deal of interaction with members of the opposite sex. Jewish women stayed home and took care of their home and hearth, as did most women. Before World War I it was not common to find women working, unless they were domestics, midwives, or teachers.
It can be problematic to try to extrapolate from what was common centuries ago to solve problems we face in the 21st century. That’s why it’s always good to find a Rav (or Rebbitzen if you prefer) to talk things over with when important decisions need to be made.January 22, 2013 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #922481
Veltz M has a good suggestion. You should do that.January 22, 2013 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #922482OneOfManyParticipant
Hm…I think CRuzer and DaasYochid are right about the troll…January 22, 2013 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #922483
I didn’t say anything about a troll 😉January 22, 2013 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #922484OneOfManyParticipant
Well, CRuzer was right about the troll, and you are right about the rest of its user names, then…January 22, 2013 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #922485
daas yochid: good detective work, unfortunately i dont have that many friends, could just be i started an interesting thread yesterday and some bored ppl at work wanted to join the fun!January 22, 2013 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #922486
Well I thought the coffee room was a nice welcoming place…I guess not. You create an account, try to ask things and get called names such as a troll…January 22, 2013 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #922487N.GMember
You were wrong. Next time don’t sign up for 10 members.
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