December 23, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #593704
i had a rebbe whos wife alone knew the password to the internet and he didn’t so if he needed to use the internet, he had to ask his wife and she of course always knew what he was doing. He said that he feels that all responsible jewish homes should have a similar setup, where the wife has carte blanche and that keeps the husbands taivah in check. Is this a little overboard or maybe not enough?December 23, 2010 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #973243
No, its prudent. No one watches a husband like a wifeDecember 23, 2010 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #973244blinkyParticipant
Who is watching the wife?December 23, 2010 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #973245
but what if the husband feels his wife doesn’t trust him which hurts his all-important pride??December 23, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #973246
women do not have the raging taivah that men do. It’s why, for example, men can’t watch women concerts but women can watch men concerts.December 23, 2010 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #973247
also, women are [usually] more intrinsically loyal than men are. If you don’t believe me, ask any marriage counselor or rabbi whos in the know on these subjects.December 23, 2010 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #973248
Thanks, Klach.. could’nta said it better myselfDecember 23, 2010 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #973249blinkyParticipant
Women may not have the taiveh as men do, but it can be addicting even on Kosher sites…December 23, 2010 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #973250
BP – much as i hate to admit it, it’s absolutely true.
But chazal still say that al; the redemptions will come thru women to make up for the fact that all problems were originally caused by a woman – chava. So there.December 23, 2010 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #973251
women also have more self-control than men, so are less likely to get addicted. But of course it still pays to be prudent.December 23, 2010 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #973252smartcookieMember
Woman need Shmirah too. If somebody denies that, then they are lying.
Men need it more, true. But enough stories surfaced after women spent too much time on the internet unobserved, and they reached wrong sites/people.December 23, 2010 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #973253
the problem is way more rampant by men though. A woman can usually suffice with a third party someone who will know what shes doing online, but a man will still have his burning taivahs. In fact, some rabbanim say that any internet activity that the wife could do [instead of the husband] she should to protect him.December 23, 2010 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #973254
Or communicated with the wrong person.December 23, 2010 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #973255BobchkaParticipant
I think that the passwords should be in joint control, the husband can put in his half and the wife hers 😀December 23, 2010 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #973256
or just get the stinking sewer system ot of the house.December 23, 2010 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #973257
bobchka – that could make for some awkard moments . . .December 23, 2010 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #973258
besides, why should the husband want to know the password at all – he is much safer not knowing it because it protects him from a very big nisayon. It would be a sign of love if my wife would do that for me and much appreciated.December 23, 2010 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #973259apushatayidParticipant
“should the wife have total control of the home internet?”
I dont think it is a good idea for any one person, male or female, to have sole control.December 23, 2010 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #973260
” it can be addicting even on Kosher sites… “
True. But you don’t go to gehenom for broswing/ downloading 1500+ cc cookie recipesDecember 23, 2010 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #973261hudiParticipant
I think that’s a great setup. I was actually just thinking about it yesterday. I guess there has to be a mutual understanding in place as well.December 23, 2010 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #973262msseekerMember
Bobchka, I know a couple who does this. Works great.December 24, 2010 5:38 am at 5:38 am #973264candy613Member
should the wife have total control of the home internet?
Shouldn’t the wife have total control over everything?December 24, 2010 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #973265OfcourseMember
BPT “But you don’t go to gehenom for broswing/ downloading 1500+ cc cookie recipes”
ROFL!December 24, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #973266
I see that the current western attitude was already adopted by us. You hear this talk of uncontrollable men, only the women are stable, all men this, all men that, yeah that’s a man…
I would say that it’s actually the other way around. Women are more vulnerable, and are easier to fall pray to someone trying to get her. While the Nisayon for a man is instant and all over, the danger for a woman is deeper and with bigger consequences.
This is in regard to one topic. Regarding the Nisayon of Dei’os, loss of Emuna and seriousness there is little doubt that it is a much bigger danger for women, who aren’t as well prepared, amongst other reasons. Once ideas like there creep into the mind, they are very hard to get out. There are many people around today who walk the walk and do the dos, and have no Emuna, or are very cooled off inside. Attitudes like these are very easy to come by.
So, no. I don’t think it is that safe for her to have exclusive access without oversight. The second issue is more prevalent than is noticed. If you watch comments on Yiddish sites, you start to wonder where did all these people get their Chinuch.December 25, 2010 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #973268myfriendMember
I see that the current western attitude was already adopted by us.
RuffRuff, Is the western attitude to blame the men instead of women for wanton behavior?December 26, 2010 12:55 am at 12:55 am #973269
“I see that the current western attitude was already adopted by us. You hear this talk of uncontrollable men, only the women are stable, all men this, all men that, yeah that’s a man… I would say that it’s actually the other way around. Women are more vulnerable, and are easier to fall pray to someone trying to get her. While the Nisayon for a man is instant and all over, the danger for a woman is deeper and with bigger consequences.”
True, a woman developing a relationship with another man is much more dangerous long-term then a man seeing inappropriate images of other women. However, the initial pull of inappropriate images is far, far stronger than that of a chat-room (or of kefira). Therefore, women tend to have an easier time initially controlling themselves than men do.
That said, the best idea is always the one-two punch: Have an internet filter (such as K9, available free online) that only the wife has the password to, and have a second program that records a history of every site the computer goes on and sends it to a respected third party (Rav, Rebbi, etc.) for them to go through.December 26, 2010 1:59 am at 1:59 am #973270adorableParticipant
I think the wife and the husband both unserstand that they need to have a filter and there should be an agreement that they are loyal and they won’t hide anything. I just put K9 on my computer which i dowloaded for free and so far so good! It is quick and does not slow the computer down. Whatever it is men have taavos that are very strong and they have to just have yiras shomayim and i think a good rebbe or rav to keep them in shape is also very important! i wouldn’t know that men have a harder time than women because being a girl i can’t imagine anyone having it harder than us but that is what they say so…December 26, 2010 2:39 am at 2:39 am #973271
Yes, as I said, the Nissayon is instant, and the problem is instant, too. The main thing is to have a filter that would block those images from appearing.
It doesn’t have to translate into thinking of yourself as a Rasha. I don’t see anything wrong with having the password, unless you know yourself and suspect that at a weak moment you will go on a clicking rampage. As long as your history is open and you’re not sneaky, just make sure the filter settings are properly set and go to where you are familiar.
In regards to Kefira, don’t underestimate it. There are attitudes about Yiddishkeit floating about, sometimes very subtly, that allow a coldness to everything seep in. Discussions are constantly brought up about Ikrey Emuna and all differing opinions are voiced. Someone with a weak backing in Torah, or someone who is more easily won over, will have those ideas creep into their mind. I can see on people who after being exposed to all these sites, seem like they just ate from the Eitz Hadas, and their eyes are suddenly open and they question much more than they did or should. But, I think I’ll agree that it isn’t as drastic.December 26, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #973272m in IsraelMember
I actually was advised by a Rosh Yeshiva in the New York area that if a frum family has a heter to have the internet in their home, they must have a filter (and yes, I triple the recommendation for K9 — it’s effective and free) AND the password should require input from both husband and wife — i.e. neither can go on without the other’s knowledge. This is not about which gender is more likely to be nichshal. It is simply being aware of the tremendous dangers of the internet and setting up precautions. Not that your spouse must hover over your shoulder, but just the fact that they are aware you are online is a psychological assistance in case of taava. “Al Tamin B’Atzmicha Ad Yom Moscha”December 27, 2010 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #973273
I have K9 and it does not block everything it should. No filter does. I spent some time once testing it by entering all kinds of words into Google and was able to access a lot of things I would prefer not to have seen. That’s why only I have the password and my husband doesn’t. We’re both calmer this way.December 27, 2010 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #973274
Mother in Israel — who keeps YOU out of trouble?December 27, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #973275smartcookieMember
I can’t understand why a woman trusts herself.
Both spouses should always be present when internet is in use.December 27, 2010 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #973276
i was in miami and a bunch of yeshivos put together a program for parents in which a few distinguished speakers with tremendous expertise in this area spoke about the importance of having internet filters and having a third party who will be emailed a list of every site visited from your computer. Unfortunately, only like 10% of the frum community showed up, which is a big embarrasment. So first, shame on them. Second, how come there isn’t this kind of initiative in all jewish communities – it is vitally necessary. And third, it seems many people are to proud to admit they need internet protection, and this is very sad.December 27, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #973277
I have no time for trouble. Nor do I have any desire to get into trouble.December 27, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #973278
M in I – most people aren’t as lucky as you. And chazal say something like “Ein adam misaveh elah al mah she’einav ro’os”, which translates as “a person only desires what he sees” – meaning we don’t have a desire for things which we are unaware of.
PS – not 100% sure that is exact lashonDecember 27, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #973279tzvideerMember
SHOULD THE WIFE HAVE TOTAL CONTROL???????
WOW!!!! i wasnt even aware there was an option!!! when does the wife NOT have control of everything??
the husband is just a guest and should do as he is told!!!
INTERNET??? whats it doing in the house anyway??!!!December 27, 2010 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #973280
Are you implying that your husband has time, and interest in getting into trouble?!
No. Of course not. But you would “test” the filter and, oops! Chances are that, other than for the pictures, you are worse off visiting off beat sites.December 27, 2010 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #973281
you can usually test the filter without the risk that if it fails you will end up somewhere shverDecember 27, 2010 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #973282
RuffRuff – Why is she worse off than him?December 27, 2010 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #973283aries2756Participant
A woman will only fall prey to another man if and only if there is trouble in her own home. That will happen with or without internet. Women are very loyal beings first to Hashem and then to their Husbands and that is why women are trusted with mitzvos that are b’shtika while men’s mitzvos are b’farhesya. There are many frum men that don’t think twice about going for a massage in a hotel or in the city and low and behold, the masseuse was a woman. How many frum women will allow themselves to get a massage from a male? Very, very few. That is out of respect to their husbands and most importantly out of respect to Hashem. That is the difference.December 27, 2010 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #973284
Mother in Israel, there is a setting on K9 which enforces Safe Search in those search engines which have it. That means that it automatically sets the Google Safe Search setting to on. Google itself will then act as a filter and not show any results from inappropriate words. If the search engine does not have such a mode, K9 will block the search engine altogether. Make sure you have enabled that setting. In addition, I like that K9 has a setting to block unrated sites. That means it will block any site that they do not recognize as being OK. If they never heard of the site, it will be blocked. So that is an additional level of protection. I think K9 is quite good if it is set properly. The annoyance is that sometimes it blocks too much, or in the middle of filling out a form, it may block a screen. It also blocks all YouTube, even the OK videos if you set it to block social networking. It is all or nothing.December 28, 2010 12:36 am at 12:36 am #973285
RuffRuff, it is true that you will find a wide array of hashkafa issues on the net. Yes, the pure yeshivish hashkafa which I grew up with was very warm, and I sometimes long for the days when I thought along those lines. Everything was very rosy. Yet, I don’t think it is the internet which changes people’s thinking. It is very difficult life experiences that do. In addition, some of the behavior of kannaim which I began to read about in the last few years, as the frum news sites came into being made me simply nauseous. No need to repeat the various stories here, but there were probably close to half a dozen, including the dibbuk fiasco, etc. If the people who think that way can act so repulsively, then it requires a rethinking of one’s hashkafa.
While I used to take every medrash 100% literally, one is led then to believe that the world of Chazal was extremely supernatural, with sheidim and all kinds of miracles happening on a regular basis. (There is an aggadeta about the nachash and Chava, and another about snakes chasing women for carnal purposes.) That presents the problem then, that since I have never experienced those things, nor has anybody else here, to the best of my knowledge, that the gemara would then be chas veshalom irrelevant, since our world runs according to the laws of nature. (Of course to a maamin, that is the biggest miracle.) So, if in the days of Chazal the world was completely different and supernatural, then how does Chazal’s advice benefit us, who don’t have those experiences ever? It is therefore sometimes better for us to view the world of Chazal as being natural, just like ours, not supernatural. They excelled, because they persevered with the same nisyonos as we have and faced the same challenges. They were able to sit and learn despite it all, and one can see their scholarship and dedication to learning in their words and ability to quote and ask a kashya from anywhere. I.e., they had Shas on their fingertips without CD ROMS.
In addition, the Rambam who says sheidim do not exist is not only offering an opinion on an interpretation of an aggedata, he is saying that he personally never saw one, either. (If he did, he never would have written that.) He is making a statement on the metzius of his time. Now, he lived only 750 years after the close of the Talmud. In his time, therefore, the world was probably like ours. So even the Rishonim lived in a natural, not a supernatural world. That leads one to believe it was the same way in the time of the gemara, too. So the gemaras about sheidim were probably meshalim for deeper concepts, but not meant to be taken literally. Of course, this is not the Yeshivishe hashkafa, which says that these aggadetas are all to be taken literally, exactly as they say.
Another problematic area is Kabbala. The Yeshivishe hashkafa says that the mekubalim have deep and secret knowledge of how Hashem runs the world and how to predict the future and intercede in the mysteries of hashgacha pratis to change the outcome. But many of these people have been shown to be fraudulent, or simply to be unable to produce results that differ in any way from what one would expect in the natural course of events. And if one asks to be shown a proof or explanation of how they arrived at their conclusion, one will invariably be told that he is a nothing, and can’t possibly fathom the wisdom of these people.
I personally find it difficult to conduct myself in these areas if I can’t understand it. Should one say a Lshem Yichud Kudsha Brich Hu uShechintai (joining the RBSH with his Shechina) or joining the letter Yud Kay with Vav Kay before performing a mitzva, when one has no idea what in the world that is supposed to mean? Now, if one says I am not on the level to understand it, I can accept that, but how do I know that the mekubalim understand it either? When it comes to rocket science, I may not understand it, but I know it works, because the GPS system tells me where I am, and how to get to someplace else. When it comes to these mekubalim, what is their track record?
So for various reasons, my thinking has become much more rational, and the warmth I get now comes from chesed, not what I used to consider Ruchniyus in my Yeshiva days.December 28, 2010 12:39 am at 12:39 am #973286
“A woman will only fall prey to another man… and only if there is trouble in her own home.”
I’m sorry, but that is a ridiculous generalization. Women without any domestic problems at all can also end up running off with another man.
“Women are very loyal beings first to Hashem and then to their Husbands and that is why women are trusted with mitzvos that are b’shtika while men’s mitzvos are b’farhesya.”
Umm… men have plenty of mitzvos bi’shtika too. Possibly even more, seeing as women have no mitzvos aseih she’hazman grama at all.
“There are many frum men that don’t think twice about going for a massage in a hotel or in the city and low and behold, the masseuse was a woman. How many frum women will allow themselves to get a massage from a male? Very, very few.”
That is because men have more of a tayvah to be touched, while women have more of a tayvah to be looked at. To put this in context, there are many married women who walk out in public while flagrantly violating the laws of tzniyus. How many frum men do such a thing?
We all have our own tayvos, but that doesn’t mean that one gender is better than the other.December 28, 2010 1:12 am at 1:12 am #973287
PY, thank you for that tip. I’m going to go check it out.
I don’t mind that it blocks You Tube. I use my computer to run a business and don’t use it for much other than that and an occasional visit to the CR.
RuffRuff, as a female, I honestly do not have any desire or interest in seeing or reading things that I shouldn’t be. Maybe it’s like aries said or maybe it’s just my nature. If I accidentally stumble across something, I immediately close it without a second thought and delete it from my history so that nobody else should accidentally come across it. My husband does not have extra time and does not want to do anything he shouldn’t, but he happens to have been born male at no fault of his home, and he himself has told me not to trust him in this area and to do anything I can to safeguard him. We’ve had this system in place for years and it’s been working beautifully.December 28, 2010 1:54 am at 1:54 am #973288
“We all have our own tayvos, but that doesn’t mean that one gender is better than the other.”
Neither gender is “better”.
However, women are more natrualy loyal, and thus are far less likely to run off with someone else, then are men. Thus they are far less likely to be drawn to mess around the internet in the first place. this is a strength of women. Men have their areas where they excel more so than women.December 28, 2010 2:26 am at 2:26 am #973289aries2756Participant
mw13, seriously? Frum women will not be tempted outside the marriage when their marriage is happy, fulfilling and satisfying! Obviously you are NOT a woman, and if you know of anyone who ran off with another man, there was something wrong with their relationship whether he admits to it or not.
As far as mitzvos b’shtika vs b’farhesia ask your Rav, what and why?
“women have no mitzvos aseih she’hazman grama at all” I disagree, women’s most private mitzvas are also time sensitive. You can not compare so don’t even try.
“while women have more of a tayvah to be looked at.” So YOU know women so well, that you can make this statement? How do you qualify this statement, did you take a poll? Did you do some survey on this topic? Let me just tell you FYI, you are wrong!
If you want to discuss tzniyus that is a whole other thread and topic but we can touch on it. Tzniyus is not only about dress it is also about attitude and behavior. So yes there are many Frum men who do not act appropriately. They are loud and vulgar. They do NOT dress appropriately and are way too showy for a Frum person. They smoke in people’s faces and they don’t care if it bothers you or not. That is not considered tznius behavior. Any behavior that draws attention to yourself is also not tznius whether you are male or female. In addition, MEN should take more of a responsibility in how their wives’ dress. Although YOU MEN might find their outfits desirable you must gather your courage to tell your wives that it is not appropriate nor tznius to go out in public or in front of the children in clothing that are either too tight or too short.
Women do not necessarily have more of a tayvah to be looked at than men do. Women have a need to feel pretty or as pretty and fashionable as everyone else. Some women more and some women less than others as I am sure is the case with men. Some men control their tayvahs better than others as I am sure is the case with women.
At any rate whatever works for the Shalom Bayis and the Marriage that is what should be implemented in the home.December 28, 2010 2:37 am at 2:37 am #973290
“Another problematic area is Kabbala. The Yeshivishe hashkafa says that the mekubalim have deep and secret knowledge of how Hashem runs the world and how to predict the future and intercede in the mysteries of hashgacha pratis to change the outcome. But many of these people have been shown to be fraudulent, or simply to be unable to produce results that differ in any way from what one would expect in the natural course of events.”
Then these people are not real Mekubalim. Kabbalah itself, however, is still very real.
“women are more natrualy loyal, and thus are far less likely to run off with someone else, then are men. Thus they are far less likely to be drawn to mess around the internet in the first place.”
I’m not sure it’s a stronger sense of loyalty as much as it a weaker temptation… after all, single women also tend to be less “drawn to the mess” then their male counterparts.
“Neither gender is “better”… this is a strength of women. Men have their areas where they excel more so than women.”
Agreed. As a matter of fact, that is precisely the point I was trying to make.December 28, 2010 2:59 am at 2:59 am #973291
“women are more natrualy loyal, and thus are far less likely to run off with someone else, then are men.”
Every time a man runs off with some other woman, a woman is running off with someone else’s man. So the numbers must be about equal.December 28, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #973292
the numbers are not exactly equal – ask any jewish marriage counselor/rabbi in the know, they will tell you that the woman is intrinsically more loyal.December 28, 2010 3:42 am at 3:42 am #973294
TNB, on the face if it, that simplistic explanation may make sense. However, once you factor in the age gap and countless other factors that nobody understands, the math changes totally.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.