December 23, 2009 4:46 am at 4:46 am #670738
playing ball will lower your status (as apposed to not playing ball, obviously) as a chashuv bachur this is a fact among the top 15 yeshivas in america. we the bachurim (like the rest of the world)are dealing with our ego and facts.December 23, 2009 4:55 am at 4:55 am #670739
“granted…we all know it happens my point is that it shouldnt, and that there is no need to try and justify stupidity. and oomis is right…sports is a very healthy and beneficial outlet”
im not justifying the habit. im justifying the mindset of a bochur and why yeshivos are run the way they areDecember 23, 2009 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #670740MaKesherMember
“and why yeshivos are run the way they are” Q: How so, can we get more specifics?
EDITEDDecember 23, 2009 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #670741oomisParticipant
And do you not think it is high time that Yeshivahs started to recognize that ball-playing is NOT a bad thing? What makes a bachur more chashuv for not playing a healthy sports activity:? I am NOT suggesting they sit and WATCH sports, but rather actively PLAY, which is a terrific outlet, refreshes the mind and body, and burns off excess energy that might otherwise be channeled into less acceptable directions.
I would also prefer not to hear the word “chashuv” used at all in regards to boys in Yeshivah. Chashivus comes in all shapes and colors, so to speak, and the fact that a boy sits in the Beis M. all day, makes him no more chashuvv than the boy who earns a parnassah, learns, and yes, makes time to unwind by playing a few games of ball to blow off steam in a healthy way.December 23, 2009 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #670742
very well said. smoking does NOT equal chashuv!December 23, 2009 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #670743
to bombmaniac ,oomis1105
correct, smoking does not equal chashav .didn’t say or imply that ,all i said was that among their “peers” they will not be the same “chashuv”
wrong or right ,thats the system,and thats what we respond to.December 23, 2009 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #670744
fine but dont try to justify WHY people smoke. lets just deal with it…and you know, just because something IS, does NOT mean it HAS to be!December 23, 2009 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #670745
And do you not think it is high time that Yeshivahs started to recognize that ball-playing is NOT a bad thing?
i have been brought up the same way. playing sports is a healthy and beneficial way to spend ones free time.
but dont start selling your haskafa to everyone else , everybody has their source for haskafa, and not every time is it agreed upon.
many roshi yeshivas from the previous generation, absolutely forbid!!! their bachurim to play (yes they promoted walks and other forms of exercise)
THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT HASKAFA AND HALACHA IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE! ITS A WELL WRITTEN AND DOCUMENTED FROM PREVIOUS GEDOLIM.
MAYBE ITS IMPORTANT TO DO SOME RESEARCH, BROADEN OUR HORIZONS AND ONLY THAN START POSTING OUR HASKAFADecember 23, 2009 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #670746
fine but dont try to justify WHY people smoke. lets just deal with it…and you know, just because something IS, does NOT mean it HAS to be!
OF COURSE. I WAS SAYING WHY YESHIVOS DONT BAN ITDecember 23, 2009 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #670747NY MomMember
bombmaniac: fine but dont try to justify WHY people smoke. lets just deal with it…and you know, just because something IS, does NOT mean it HAS to be!
I agree! Yeshivas should work on changing the attitude of smoking being acceptable. In fact, if a boy smokes, that should LOWER his chashivus in the eyes of his peers and the hanhalah. “V’nishmartem meod l’nafshoseisem” isn’t just a nice posuk to quote to your small children, but should be something we actually live by – especially with regards to smoking. Who in this day and age can say, with a straight face, that smoking is not detrimental to one’s health?December 23, 2009 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #670748
you’re nitpicking…the point is not the actual sports but other forms of physical activity, or some other outlet aside from smoking which im SURE every rosh yeshiva would agree is worse than smoking
EDITEDDecember 23, 2009 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #670749NY MomMember
And by the way, in my son’s yeshiva, I don’t see ANY bochurim hanging out smoking outside yeshiva, as the hanhalah strongly discourages it. So if our yeshiva can do it, every yeshiva can!December 23, 2009 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #670750
NO IM NOT NITPICKING. MY POINT IS PEOPLE BLAME YESHIVAS, MECHANCHIM , AND RABBAIM HOW THEY RUN THE SYSTEM. without having the proper hashkafas themselves this is just a example (another misconception is that smoking is assur min hatorah )
yes i have said more than once, smoking is a bad habit ,it should be stopped. but the blasting of the bachurim that do it ,and yeshivas that dont do enough to stop.the false claims under the isurrim that are being done. and not recognizing the proper way to run yesheivas (ex. promote sports in yeshiva) it is blown out of proportion by people who decide for themselves what hashkafa is all aboutDecember 23, 2009 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #670751
yes not every yeshiva is like your sons. you (and hopefully your son) decided what yeshiva was the place for him to shtieg. but for many your sons yeshiva is not the “place”
they need a different setting.
i therefore conclude that camparing one yeshiva to another is like comparing a skinny person to a fat one. they just have different genetic makeup!
ps (of course if the hanhalah doesn’t allow they will hide when they do it, like done in many places.but i dont know what yeshiva your son attends and its very possible that no one in that place smokes, good for him. and good for you.)December 23, 2009 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #670752oomisParticipant
I wonder if the objections that our Gedolim (if any feel this way) might have to sports, might possibly harken back to the time of the Greeks who spent inordinate amounts of time in the Gymnasium. Many hellenized Jews were doing so as well, so there is a truly bad association in their eyes with ANY type of sports activity that involves play. Maybe they fear it will result in a new “hellenization.” I still think that all legal and moral things including exercise, are good in moderation, and that is not MY hashkafa, it is fact.December 23, 2009 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #670753
AJ…i am placing blame on many people…parents…teachers…hanhalla…while at the end of the day there is no way of stopping a bochur bent on smoking, they could do more. i have been around many smokers, and have no inclination to smoke, in fact every time im around a smoker i make sure that person knows how disgusting i think the habit is, and how bad for his health smoking is. parents have to constantly emphasize the evils of smiking and other vices so that their kids never pick up any of those habits. teachers, the same. constant emphasis. hanhalla…SEVERE punishment for smoking, i.e. suspension…lengthy detentions…demotion to a lower shiur…i know this may sound sever but smoking is SUCH a sever problem that it calls for drastic measures. obviously like i said before you cant stop a person who is determined to smoke…but i do think more can be done.December 23, 2009 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #670754
oh! how so unfortunate. you ponder the issue, then conclude with the facts that you know.
let me remind you that before i posted R MOSHE feinstein psak about smoking is was common misconception that everybody agrees its “ASSUR MIN HATORAH”.
now i used sports as an example of people who are uneducated in hashkafa. whether it is agreed upon by the vast majority of gedolim today? probably not .but again recognize that there is another opinion. if you dont like those yeshivs don’t send your child there all i ask is to respect the other side , especially if your not fully educated in the matter
(THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT SPORTS, SMOKING OR OUR CHINACH SYSTEM, ITS THE PEOPLES DISTRUST THEY SHOW TOWARDS IT, the system is by no means perfect. but involving haskafa in the argument requires vast knowledge and many years of studying so unless you have that, display caution)December 23, 2009 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #670755
i will NOT respect the other side…because assur…mutar…whatever it is still wrong, and your argument of hashkafa only started based on the sports. we got that out of the picture. everything i said makes perfect and no one in their right mind would argue on it.
so lets lay iy all on the line. end this pointless argument.
smoking is wrong. period. assur…mutar…its wrong.
the punishment for smoking should be more than just a smile and a “dont do it again”
there is no distinction between a “chashuva” bochur who smokes and a “bum” who smokes they are equally wrong in that regard.
parents have to educate their kids on the evils of smoking and other vices, and constantly emphasize the point.
here are the four basic points that came out of this argument, and further discussion of the matter is pointless and unnecessary.December 23, 2009 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #670756
can someone please close this topic as it has obviously crossed with the other topic on smoking?December 24, 2009 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #670757MaKesherMember
To bring us back on topic let me tell you something that happens in MY daily life. I have a 9 yr old sibling with asthma, and for him smoking can and is deadly. Not only from himself but from second hand smoke passed on by other people. We can say all we want that we have to “broaden our horizons” and listen to the other side (whoever that may be), but to put other people at risk for what YOU feel is right?
Right now I’m not sure who is right, I have been successfully confused by all the arguments on this thread. (I’m not sure if thats a good thing or not)
AJ-I don’t think we’re telling anyone to Paskin Halacha here, but I do believe that everyone is allowed to have their own opinions and state them sometimes. And to feel undermined or bent out of shape because of that I think is because of the real disease that is plaguing our community which is uncertainty about our identities and our quickness to discriminate against ANYONE (even in our own circles) who are not like us.
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