January 29, 2009 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #638809notpashutMember
No one is condoning smoking here. I think you missed the boat.January 29, 2009 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #638810
Can someone please explain to me why we must weigh one against the other??
It seems like the only reason we are having this discussion is because some people have tried to discredit the original post by asking what a yeshiva bochur is doing online. Other than that, what is worse a stroke or a heart attack? BOTH CAN KILL!!
As for the comment “The potential for good use of the internet far outweighs the bad, in my opinion.”
Wow you are either totally naive about what is truly out there on the internet, or so blinded by your desire to prove a point that you would make such a statement. I cannot fathom anything worse in this world then the darkest depths of the internet. The internet has been used to abduct children for the purpose of (whatever) and other criminal and immoral activities! I see no way the good can outweigh stuff like thatJanuary 29, 2009 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #638812just meParticipant
I have to say I find this very amusing. First of all, the biggest laugh is all the people on line talking about the evils of the internet. Maybe you should discuss during davening the evils of talking in shul. That said, I think we all know that the biggest problem of the internet is that you can go to bad sites in the privacy of your home instead of being embarassed to go to the news stand to buy disgusting magazines. It does take some self-restraint. OMG! People acually restraing themselves! What a radical thought!
Second, my boys all went to different yeshivas in the States (NY and NJ) and the smoking that went on there was unbeleiveable! One yeshiva, in an effort to slow it down, made a rule that you couldn’t smoke within 2 blocks of the yeshiva. One dorm that one of my son’s was in while in Bais Medresh, had a haze of smoke inside.
Smoking is smelly, expencive, effects the heart and lungs and keeps organizations like Chai Lifeline in business. I can’t understand why it’s condoned in most yeshivas.
There really is no comparison to the 2 problems. It’s like saying: Is it better to play in traffic or eat at McDonalds.January 29, 2009 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #638813
holtzichfest … your type of thinking demonstrates exactly what is wrong with today’s Jewish societyJanuary 29, 2009 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #638814oomisParticipant
“As for the comment “The potential for good use of the internet far outweighs the bad, in my opinion.”
Wow you are either totally naive about what is truly out there on the internet, or so blinded by your desire to prove a point that you would make such a statement. I cannot fathom anything worse in this world then the darkest depths of the internet. The internet has been used to abduct children for the purpose of (whatever) and other criminal and immoral activities! I see no way the good can outweigh stuff like that “
I don’t know how old you are, but I suspect possibly on the younger side (if I am mistaken, I will stand corrected). I am probably a great deal older than you, and I assure you, not in the least naive. I proabably know more about what is out there than many posters here who do not own or watch a tv.
There is UNQUESTIONABLY a lot of shmutz in this world, no doubt about that. But the things you mention show a singular hysteria that is a typical component of decriers of the internet (and why are you posting on it, btw, if you are so opposed and “cannot fathom anything worse in this world?”). Do you seriously not think there are FAR worse, DARKER things in this world than the internet? If so, then I don’t think that I am the naive one, nor do I need to prove a point, because you prove it for me.
The internet can be used to scope out ** DELETED ** sites. It can also be used to scope out beautiful pictures of Eretz Yisroel, Divrei Torah, secular educational research, medical information, referrals for social services, and so on. People can put filters on their computers and if they are educating their children with love not fear, they will produce a generation of Yirai Elokim that have no need or desire to navigate inappropriate sites. More important, children learn by imitating their parents’ actions. When they see anything in life that is done in an appropriate manner, that is the lesson they learn.
Your remark about kids being abducted, as it relates to frum kids, bothered me a great deal. Many kids who are abducted, meet predators in on-line chat rooms. It is far more likely to happen in the general (rather than frum)population where kids need to truly be monitored in their computer use, both at home and by friends. Education is the key. Not leaving kids at home alone for several hours after school, to fend for themselves, is also a serious issue, as many parents must be two-income families and their children are unsupervised after school.
I think that many people who have extremely strong negative feelings about the internet, do so because it is either soemthing they are being taught to believe, or they have heard of “someone” having a bad experience. All things, money, food, enjoyment of nature, etc. can be used for good purposes or nefarious ones. If we asser everything because it has a potential for bad, then we also lose out on its potential for good. The internet is a pwoerful tool, and as with all power tools, you have to use it wisely, or you will get hurt.January 29, 2009 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #638815gavra_at_workParticipant
This is the Mir. You and I both know there are no rules. If you want somewhere with rules go to R’ Friedman in Beitar or Brisk. Not the Mir.
Thats what makes it great. Anyone can join.
oomis1105: Nothing against you, but you are a woman. You know not the power of the Dark Side, and the ease of falling into its trap.
That all said, who cares. The point about smoking is a good one, whether made in a proper setting or not.January 29, 2009 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #638816notpashutMember
All the teenagers ON THIS WEBSITE who have repeatedly said that they can & do get past any filter are reading your post & laughing at your naivete.
You say, “I think that many people who have extremely strong negative feelings about the internet, do so because it is either soemthing they are being taught to believe, or they have heard of “someone” having a bad experience.”
I personally heard R’ Belsky speak about MANY MANY FAMILIES which he personally was invoved with which were destroyed because of the internet. And bear in mind, he is only ONE Rav.
Oomis, you are a nice person, but you’re closing your eyes & ears to reality & living in a fantasy land.January 29, 2009 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #638818
>>There is UNQUESTIONABLY a lot of shmutz in this world, no doubt about that. But the things you mention show a singular hysteria that is a typical component of decriers of the internet (and why are you posting on it, btw, if you are so opposed and “cannot fathom anything worse in this world?”). Do you seriously not think there are FAR worse, DARKER things in this world than the internet? If so, then I don’t think that I am the naive one, nor do I need to prove a point, because you prove it for me.<<
No, I just know that any of these dark things have sites representing them. I am not saying it should be banned for that reason. Simply questioning the notion that the good outweighs the bad.
>> All things, money, food, enjoyment of nature, etc. can be used for good purposes or nefarious ones. If we asser everything because it has a potential for bad, then we also lose out on its potential for good<<
Agreed, but realize, just like there are sites out there working on suicide prevention, there are sites out there where people encourage each other to actually commit suicide and give advice on how to do it.
I have no issue with the Gedolim assuring it based upon the notion that the bad outweighs the good. They told us to forgo the zechusim of the Shofar and lulav because of the MERE POTENTIAL of chillul shabbos did they not?!?
>>Your remark about kids being abducted, as it relates to frum kids, bothered me a great deal. Many kids who are abducted, meet predators in on-line chat rooms. It is far more likely to happen in the general (rather than frum)population where kids need to truly be monitored in their computer use, both at home and by friends<<
In 1995 I was in my mid-teens and active on the youth boards of the Jewish forum of AOL (way back before the offered an unlimited plan). My bio was up in the penpal section. TWICE a frum guy e-mailed me claiming to be in his 40s, from Brooklyn, like me, asking to befriend me. Needless to say I shunned his request. (I wonder to this day if her was successful)January 29, 2009 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #638819moish01Member
notpashut, it doesn’t take a genius. i can get past the filter on my computer. and put it back so no one can tell. took me a few weeks, but i got it eventually.January 30, 2009 12:35 am at 12:35 am #638821
Notpashut, if you are just installing a filter and saying that is enough, you have NOT done your job as a parent. That is like giving your kid the drivers ed book and saying thats enough to drive.
A parent should be involved in what their kids are looking at online. The internet should only be available in a public area of the home and should primarily be used when others are awake and able to see everything that is going on. A parent should also constantly talk to their kids about the dangers of the internet etc.
Granted, kids can get around a filter. But they can also get around the no internet at home. My step-nieces have no problem doing anything they want online and their parents dont allow them to have internet. They went to the library, to friends etc. So banning it won’t work either unless you ban them from being friends with anyone who has internet at home. (They live in an out of town community so it isnt so feasible to say no to all the kids there!)
Education is often a more powerful tool than restriction.January 30, 2009 12:52 am at 12:52 am #638822
(EDITOR: Stop ignoring me. I have a right to respond to people who attack me. Can you at least edit out what disturbs your own sensitivities.)
OK – I edited out the parts that “disturbs my own sensitivities”.
We do not and will not accept posts that bash Rabbonim. You have the right for your opinion, but if it anti-Torah, anti-halacha or anti-Rabbonim please don’t express it here. Please feel more then welcome to take your comments elsewhere.
I’m sorry if I am being to tough, but your post truly bothered me.
Have a good Shabbos!
–YW Moderator 99January 30, 2009 1:18 am at 1:18 am #638823
tentwenty30 wrote: “holtzichfest … your type of thinking demonstrates exactly what is wrong with today’s Jewish society”
Ya, not jusy his type of thinking, his way of speaking as well.January 30, 2009 1:49 am at 1:49 am #638824
how about this?
Parents stop blindly trusting the filter, and actually proactively both educate and monitor their children’s internet use. The internet is too valuable a tool t simply throw away definitively. The best things are not filters, but rather monitors that either record or forward histories of internet use (such as spector, covenant eyes etc). It does not prevent access to bad sites, but acts by way of deterence, as it is noticeable if it gets deactivated.January 30, 2009 2:08 am at 2:08 am #638825
If anyone here thinks they know things that the Gedolim didn’t consider, please contact your local Godol and so inform him.
Until then, and until they say otherwise, follow their current directives.January 30, 2009 3:50 am at 3:50 am #638826
YW Moderator 99,
Absolutely nothing I wrote bashes Rabbonim. You can pick on my words “disturbs your own sensitivities”, but that is exactly what this is. There wasn’t a false word in what I wrote, nor was anything negative towards anyone other then the Kanoyim – who are not the Rabbonim – and know how to get what they want.
Anyway i’m not mochel you for embarrassing my anyonoumous personality.January 30, 2009 4:01 am at 4:01 am #638827
The moderator didn’t embarrass you.
You embarrass yourself.January 30, 2009 4:09 am at 4:09 am #638828
Nobody read what I wrote so that doesn’t exactly make sense.
But i will say again as I have said many times in other YWN topics. I believe your modus operandi is to bother and distrurb the people who take part in this forum. I rarely ever see you providing anything positive or constructive to a conversation. You stick your nose in to bother all parties.January 30, 2009 4:15 am at 4:15 am #638829
Obviously the Torah bothers you, as the moderator made clear. In that case, when I express the Torah opinion, be it a married women needing to cover her hair or be it something else, it is obvious why it bothers you: You don’t like what the Torah says, as explained by our Rabbonim.January 30, 2009 4:19 am at 4:19 am #638830oomisParticipant
If parents monitor their kids’ use of the computer, place it NOT in a closet, but in a very prominent place in the general family room where the parents can be there any time at all, the kids would not be able to so easily use the computer for the wrong reasons. Our computer is in a room where we are in and out all the time when the kids are home. NO one gets to use the computer without the knowledge that it is totally visible at all times, though we respect their privacy by not standing on top of them. The computer has always and only been used for research papers, or to IM friends (and we always knew who each friend is) etc., and no chat rooms were allowed at all. My kids are adult now, but they still “follow the rukles.” Because if they didn’t (and I would know from the history which is retained in the computer, even when they think they have deleted something), their Screen Name would be eliminated from the computer, and I would block their access. I actually had to do this one time in the last ten years, and it was only because the child involved started to monopolize the computer, so I limited the days and hours during which he could access it, as well as the amount of time alotted to him. He was not happy, but I am the parent and he was then only 12. He did learn not to be so greedy, and made good use of the computer when he was able to use it.
I still do not agree with the points about the awfulness of the computer, but I hear what you are saying about the filter, and I guess it means that parents need to be even more creative. There is a Master Screen Name for each computer. Don’t allow the kids access to that, because they CAN get around any parental controls in that case. I used secret words that only I would think of to keep my Master Status the only one, and my kids couldn’t do anything on the computer without my haskama.January 30, 2009 4:34 am at 4:34 am #638831
gavra. i personally know ppl. who have been kicked out of the mirt the mir has mashgicim who check on all the deeras very frequently. it is not nearly as hefker as it used to be. and ppl. will always break the rules in any yeshiva if they want to.
azi and tentwenty. i think the cr is a bit too right wing for you.January 30, 2009 5:36 am at 5:36 am #638832
That meaningless and purposely agitating (attempted) comment is a perfect example of what i have been saying about you all along. Nowhere have I said women don’t need to cover their hair. You know I didn’t. This is just part of your poor debating skills.
Secondly, who made some anonymous dude named YW Moderator 99 the arbitrator of what is “anti-torah”? If he would have bothered to have actually read and understood my comment he would have posted it. Again, your falling back onto something you don’t even understand as your support. Another example of your poor and immature debating skills.January 30, 2009 6:25 am at 6:25 am #638833YW Moderator-99Member
Implying that Rabbonim make decisions with out reviewing them at all or knowing what they are talking about is called bashing.
Secondly, I am NOT the arbitrator of what is “anti-torah” – the torah is. And I did bother to actually read and understand your comment. All 3 times that you posted it. Not only that, I actually discussed it with another moderator and we both agreed that it absolutely can’t be posted.
And if you happen not to like our posting decision making, there are plenty of web-sites out there that will post anything you give it. Please feel free to go there.January 30, 2009 10:01 am at 10:01 am #638835
oomis said “I still do not agree with the points about the awfulness of the computer,”
What will it take for you to admit that the dangers outweigh the advantages?
Chazal said all of klal yisroel stops blowing the shofar on shabbos because SOMEONE MIGHT carry it B’SHOGEG. How much more so when we KNOW there are MANY frum yidden who use the internet for things which are ossur!
Do I need to give examples?
How many Frum Yidden do you think saw…
– the Daniel Pearl video?
-The Saddam hanging?
-movies rated “worse than R” ? (trying to keep it clean hear Mods)
-any Yousef Al-Khattab messages?
Do you not think there was a reason the Agudah donated an entire convention to the threat posed by bloggers? Children hear one thing from a Rebbe, then go on the internet to see that a blogger who has anointed him or herself with da’as torah says differently.
Have you heard of “FailedMessiah” or “UnorthodoxJew” (If you have not all the power to you).
Need instructions how to build a bomb? How to do other illegal activities? It is all here.
Obviously I am an internet user. I am just asking why you insist that a) It is not that bad, and b)the good far outweighs it?January 30, 2009 11:28 am at 11:28 am #638836
Since this post is about me I must reply to flatbush27. First of all I am not a bachur I am an Avrech. You shouldn’t make assumptions about people you don’t know. (Especially because all of your assumptions are wrong.) The same way I wouldn’t make an assumption about you since I don’t know you. There is no comparison between smoking and the Internet. I am not sure where you get the notion that there is a comparison. The Internet is Asur for the Tzibur in E’Y who have chosen to live a different lifestyle then their brethren in Chutz Laretz. Go to any halacha shiur for Amreicans in Israel and you will find many things which the poskim of Eretz Yisrael are very Machmir on, Which we Toshvei Chutz are not Machmir for, especially since we are mostly somech on the Psak of Rav Moshe. The facts are that most Avrechim in the Mir have American lines as well as Internet in their apartments. Obviously the Internet has both Maolos and Chasronos but every yid is a Neman is not yours or my place to judge what they are doing on the Internet. You don’t know where I come from. (thankfully not the Tri-State area) The Internet is my connection the outside world. I use it for News, Information, Paying Bills, and Investing. There is nowhere in the Torah Bksav or Bal Peh where it says those things are Asur. Smoking a Ciggarette is with out a doubt an issur Medoraisa of more then one lav. When you add on the effect of smoking in front of someone else it adds many more issurim.
In your original post on this thread, you are concerned that someones spirituality is more important then their physical health. If you actually read my original post and actually read what I said, you would have seen that the message is that smoking in front of others is the worst form of destroying your spirituality. Being Oiver inyanim in Bein Adam Lchavero and causing a Chillul Hashem and Bezayon Hatorah are issurim that Yom Kippur is not MECHAPER for. What kind of oinshim can you expect in Shamyim for causing harm to a fellow yid. There are many pitfalls that one can run into on the Internet and I would hope no one ever does, but at least that person has the chance to correct any mistake he did by doing Teshuva. Unfortunately some one who harms others does not have that opportunity unless the other person is Moichel him and he pays that person the necessary damages that the Torah teaches us the Nizak is owed. My whole point is that is Pashut that someone who learns Torah all day should have the common sense not to harm others while he is smoking. Out Torah is a Toras Chaim you can be the biggest Masmid in the world who unfortunately is addicted to smoking, which the Torah that you are learning says is assur. When someone see’s you on the street with your black hat or long payos, you are representing the Torah you are learning. By smoking in public you are demonstrating that you have learnt nothing and that those that you follow have taught you nothing. That is an outright Chillul Hashem as far as I am concerned. If that is not true then any self respecting smoker who thinks he is a Yarei Shamyim should please smoke in private where no one can see him and eventually try very hard to quit.
If you and others really care about others spirituality, then you should speak up about the Chilul Hashem of supposedly Yeshivish people smoking recklessly with out regard for any one else.January 30, 2009 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #638837
Thank you YW-Mod 99.January 30, 2009 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #638838
“Implying that Rabbonim make decisions with out reviewing them at all or knowing what they are talking about is called bashing.”
I never implied any such thing. I gave a specific examples were Rabbonim themselves have admitted to not meeting to discuss the issues and expressed regret and the matter was publicized. One was a stupid example about ztedaka campaigns.
“Secondly, I am NOT the arbitrator of what is “anti-torah” – the torah is”
So now you’re not just a guy with a job, you even have Das Torah to decide what is pro or anti Torah!
You completely missed the point. I simply wrote why I feel it is K’fira what flatbush27 wrote that he puts his trust and faith in human beings. Apparently you are more interested in taking sides than being able to recognize someone standing up for Kovod Shamayim and Yiras Shamyaim.January 30, 2009 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #638839squeakParticipant
I see the comparison between internet and smoking. Having the internet is a risk. Smoking is a risk (I allow the argument that smoking is not an inherent danger because some smokers have no problems). Who is to say which risk is higher?
The question is, what is your risk appetite? Hopefully, it is low for both your neshama and your health. The difference is that the risks associated with the internet are completely within your control. The risks associated with each puff of a cigarette are out of your control the moment after you take the puff. Blind banning of the internet means that we do not trust anyone to exercise control. Blind banning of smoking means that we recognize the fact that the risk cannot be managed.January 30, 2009 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #638840
sisy: im not sure why being an avreich learning full time makes a diffrence of you having internet. a bochur and an avreich should both be learning full time but maybe you forgot your makom and the fact that someone (your parents, or your in laws) are supporting you even through these tough times. i think the gedolim have more pressing issues at hand than your problem which is people smoking near people who get bothered by it ( which is a very valid problem). you say that most americans have internet. so what. that reason for you to have internet is ridiculus. boruch Hashem your not from the tri state area. you wouldnt last a day here.
you also say “there are many pitfalls that one can run into on the Internet and I would hope no one ever does, but at least that person has the chance to correct any mistake he did by doing Teshuva”. that is completely anti torah. would you give your teenager son his own laptop with internet and not supervise him at all and say its ok because at least he coul do teshuva. when you do an aveira and say to yourself, i will do teshuva afterwards so its ok, the teshuva does NOT work.
Our Torah is a Toras Chaim you can be the biggest Masmid in the world who unfortunately is using the internet, which the Torah that you are learning says is assur.January 30, 2009 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #638842enlightenedjewMember
Ssiy – very, very well said. I’m surprised no comments on your post.
Squeak, I agree wholeheartedly. The nicotine in cigarettes, cigars, pipes, etc can be chemically addictive besides potentially life-threatening and a nuisance for others. Once started it is VERY hard to stop. I would point out though that there is such a thing as internet addiction – another danger of the internet besides content. While not chemically, biologically addictive, it can be a dependency that can be hard to break.
I don’t think that banning something out of hand is always the best route to guiding a large group people to do the right thing, especially if the cultural, philosophical and psychological makeup of said group is extremely diverse. Bans can at times (though not always) be a cop out, a quick, easy “solution” to a problem which often can be solved more effectively by targeted statements and activities while taking into account risk/reward assessment, trade-offs, opportunity costs, likelihood of acceptance, etc. It goes without saying that this requires more work and thought than learning of a new fad, item, activity or technology and slapping a ban on it. Often times items or activities are banned when advocates of these blanket bans may not be aware of or take into account how banning an item or activity will affect people’s lives in a myriad of ways.January 30, 2009 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #638843
Squeak, here is the difference: smoking not only effects YOU, but second hand smoke also harms others.
Improper use of the internet generally harms one person.January 30, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #638844
and sisy stop trying to save the velts tzaros before you start workng on yourself and the fact that someone who is supposedly learning full time has internet in their home which is the worst thing in todays society as said repeatedly by the gedolim. the reasons you stated for having internet are meaningless. they are just excuses. ask your rosh yeshiva, R Nosson Tzvi Finkel if its ok for you to have internet and come back to me.January 30, 2009 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #638845enlightenedjewMember
Flatbush – “sisy:… a bochur and an avreich should both be learning full time but maybe you forgot your makom and the fact that someone (your parents, or your in laws) are supporting you even through these tough times.”
What does this have to do with anything? And isn’t that narrow minded?
Anyway, I think that we all have too little trust and faith in ourselves. The internet, cell phone, TV, telephone, these are all mediums and not content and are not problematic in and of themselves, the content is. If people can generally self regulate, then maybe a blanket ban is not the best way to react and approach these technological innovations. By way of analogy – eating too much will most probably lead to obesity which can have all sorts of issues attached to it, from health (ushmartem es nafshoseichem) to lashon hara (“hey, did you see how fat ploni got?) erc, etc. Do we ban food?? No we try to self regulate our intake.January 30, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #638846gavra_at_workParticipant
Sounds like you are getting personal. I’m suprised the mods let it through. You seem to have an ulterior motive.
ARE YOU A SMOKER?
Also: Has your Rav allowed you to be in the coffee room?
Please respond (if you will) to the two questions posed so that your Negiyus will be clear to all.
Either way, quit before your hole is too deep to climb out. After all, you have internet (And if you want, don’t support the Mir. I don’t.)January 30, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #638847squeakParticipant
SJS, nothing could be farther from the truth. Improper use of the internet harms marriages, families, friendships, and more. Not just the person who uses it.January 30, 2009 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #638848Native IsraeliMember
I feel it is equally as wrong for a bocher to be online, and a 45 yr old…
Yochanan, was a Kohan godel, and he became a tzidokee at 80
age is not an issue when it comes to these things
if a/t the younger you are the more chances you’ll change for the good, the older you are the more prone you are to keep on doing what you are doing…January 30, 2009 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #638849
gavra. i dont have an ulterior motive nor am i smoker. i do not condone smoking as i said earlier and agree completely with ssiy that its assur to smoke near ppl. who dont like it. i just feel he and other ppl. who are learning full time should not have internet in their house or be using it. when your learning you need to shut out the outside world and concentrate completely on learning and the internet is the biggest ‘outside’ thing that turns peoples mind away from learningJanuary 30, 2009 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #638850yossieaParticipant
Smoking has ZERO benefits, the internet has lots of benefits. It is naive of people to think they can just shut out the internet. Guess what, the internet is here to stay and you better learn how to live with it properly because soon EVERYTHING will be done via the internet. Personally, if I knew that a rav smoked, I would not follow him at all. There are lots of addictiions out there, yet you’d be hard pressed to find a heter for them, same with smoking. Smoking is known to kill. If you smoke, you are an idiot.January 30, 2009 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #638851
Native Israeli … true, however, when was the last time someone went of the derech b/c of Plato?
The challenge of the Internet is pornography and other such items, not “kefirah”
I will restate this again and again: the internet is to valuable a tool to simply throw away entirelyJanuary 30, 2009 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #638852
tentwenty. the internet is defitely too valuable a tool to just throw away but not for yeshiva bochurim. they dont need it at all and shouldnt be on itJanuary 30, 2009 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #638853
102030 – Kefira IS one of the challanges of the internet.January 30, 2009 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #638854
SJS, nothing could be farther from the truth. Improper use of the internet harms marriages, families, friendships, and more. Not just the person who uses it.
Smoking DOES cause health problems for both the smoker AND the people in the area.
Improper internet usage CAN break up marriages, families, friendships etc. To be fair, I don’t actually know anyone whos marriage or anything broke up from the internet (though I am not saying it doesnt happen).
Perhaps the marriages more likely to be broken up by the internet are those where internet is taboo?January 30, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #638855
Flatbush27: What about yeshiva bochurim who are also taking Secular courses, and require internet for research, or are interested in secular science, literature, politics etc? Do they really not need it? Should they be banned from using it? Please respond
Joseph … sorry buddy, but that is not what is breaking up countless marriages, causing teenagers to destroy their minds with pritzusJanuary 30, 2009 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #638856
tentwenty: yes they do need internet with a filter or other method. agreed. but they are not full time yeshiva bochurim. i am talking about bochurim who learn 3 sedarim a day and are not in collegeJanuary 30, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #638857mw13Participant
azi: mod-99 may not be the “the arbitrator of what is “anti-torah””, but he is one of the deciders of what can be posted on http://www.theyeshivaworld.com, a private website. If he, or any of the other mods, decide that they do not want to post your comment for any reason, then that is their choice.
And azi, I have seen Joseph post on the many torah threads in the CR many times, but I have never seen a dvar torah from you. So I’d say that your nasty little comment of “your modus operandi is to bother and distrurb the people who take part in this forum. I rarely ever see you providing anything positive or constructive to a conversation.” would seem to apply more to you than Joseph.
Back to the original topic, every cigarette smoked is an issur diuyraysu. Period. Almost nothing on the internet is truly an issur diuyraysu. Of course parents must use filters (yes, plural – filters can be broken all too easily) and close supervision, but the internet can, through some work, be kashured; cigarettes can’t be.January 30, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #638858
mw 13. looking at certain things ( figure it out) IS an issur dioraysa and meeting different ppl in chatrooms can and does lead to the worst aveiros in the torah. if you deny that you are truly naiveJanuary 30, 2009 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #638859
flatbush27 … none of what you are saying is incorrect. However, I feel that the instinctive “curl up into a ball and insulate ourselves” approach is misguided and will create more harm than good. Teenagers (and adults for that matter as well) can and will find ways to access what the want if they are so inclined to. By allowing supervised access, and with parental supervision, intervention and communication, teenagers (and adults) can learn to use the internet properly.
what do you think?
BTW, I never mentioned the word filters … they don’t really work and are too easy to get around. However, monitoring software that it is clear that it will be known to whoever is monitoring that it was disabled, works much better (some examples are spector, covenant eyes etc)January 30, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #638860
mw13 – yasher koach
102030 – Kefira on the net has caused countless damage (separate from the pritzus and marital issues that you alluded to.)January 31, 2009 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #638862
To flatbush27 you once again are making ignorant assumptions about me which are incorrect. You don’t know me. I learn two sedarim a day. No one supports me and my wife, we support ourselves. I have a college degree from one of the top universities in America that I obtained in a Yeshiva environment. I have two years of work experience. My wife and I decided that are marriage should start with a foundation that is based on Torah. I have taken a year off (possibly more) to learn after which I plan on continuing my career. The Internet is part of my life I take care of all of my business on it and it keeps me informed. Your naive assumptions reflect very poorly on yourself. Putting down the Internet is no way to say that smoking is ok, there is no comparison between the two. While it might be true that someone who is engrossed in Torah the whole day should not be on the Internet. I do know some people like that and they are truly special. Most of the people that I know are not on that level. I would be interested to know why you are on the Internet if you think it so bad. Would it be right for me to assume that your secular education ended at eighth grade. You are obviously not very intelligent, so STOP making assumptions about other people you don’t know. It just makes you look bad.January 31, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #638863
To flatbush27 it doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah that paying a credit card bill, trading a stock or reading Yeshiva World News is Asur. If you learn the Torah and it has an effect on you and it has an effect on your Derech Hachayim there are many things on the Internet that are not assur. A Yid has a neamnus that what he does is kosher you have no right to assume that someone using the Internet is doing things that are assur. If that was your outlook then you would assume your local butcher or restaurateur are serving you treif at kosher prices because it increases their income. Of course in both cases it is possible that someone is doing things which are not yosher. To make that your assumption about every yid or every butcher is very foolish. The Internet is not Assur, You can do Assur things on the Internet. Smoking is Assur. There is no way that it can ever be Muttar. There is no comparison between the two. Moreover when someone who learns the whole day walks outside the Beis Medrash wearing yeshivish garb and lights up a cigarette he is doing an issur in public. He is outright embarrassing the torah he just learned and the institution he just walked out of. To the Majority of people who see him he is causing a Chillul Hashem and a Bezayon Hatorah. If his smoking harms others he is oiver even more Issurim Bein Adam Lchavero, which Yom Kippur is not Mechaper for. That is an outright crystal clear Issur. When someone is on the Internet there is no Issur taking place. If a person can’t control himself it is possible that he will see something he shouldn’t and obviously that is assur and is something the Tzibur should be concerned about on a Klal level but the actual Maysa only affects that person. It is wrong for you to make the assumption that every Yid on the Internet spend his whole day looking at things he shouldn’t be looking at. When someone smokes and disregards the suffering of those around them his aveira is in the open. There is no doubt that he is killing himself both physically and spiritually as well as harming others. Any one that cares for the Kavod of Klal Yisrael has a chiyuv to tell them to STOP. Your trying to rationalize this clearly assur and harmful behavior just makes you an accomplice to their crime and therefore an enabler of their Chilul Hashem.February 1, 2009 1:00 am at 1:00 am #638864
Gut Vocht All,
Flatbush27, just curious, what would be your opinion on people learning 3 sedarim a day, who also would like to broaden their horizons secularly, and therefore read news, opinions etc? Would that be problematic?
Joseph, while in theory I do not disagree with you, I think that to say that the issues of kefirah are on the same level as those presented by pritzus, minimizes the challenges of the latter. As well, I am not convinced that the study of said kefira with the attitude that it must be carefully considered and weighed against Torah values is necessarily wrong. Are you able to justify your claim?
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