February 1, 2009 2:10 am at 2:10 am #638865yankdownunderMember
Klal Israel stands on the merit of people learning Torah. Where does it appear in the Torah of Hashem, about Surfing the Net. People who learn in Litvitch and and Chasiddish Yeshivas and Kollels (around the world) are protecting the Neshamas of millions of Jews by their selfless dedication learning every day. I guess I do not understand why someone (who is involved in learning) from a Frum Family would feel the need to be informed about the secular world . Smoking is destructive not only to the smoker but also to innocent others who also breathe in their smoke. Mussar generally does not work as far as getting smokers to quit. Smoking Clinics, Support Groups with people sponsoring smokers, making changes in the smokers eating regimen … are more productive ways of curbing Nicotine Addiction.February 1, 2009 3:10 am at 3:10 am #638866
flatbush27, which pasuk says one can’t look at those things or talk in chat rooms?
And even if those things are issurai diuyraysu (I simply don’t know), even someone who does C”V do those things probably does them a lot less often then someone who smokes. And smoking is chemically addictive, so once you start its incredibly hard to stop.February 1, 2009 4:48 am at 4:48 am #638867
As well, I am not convinced that the study of said kefira with the attitude that it must be carefully considered and weighed against Torah values is necessarily wrong.
It is absolutely forbidden to learn or read kefira (without a special heter of “kidei l’horos”). And there is much kefira (as well as plain attacks on Rabbonim — specifically and in general) on the net.
The bottom line about using the net, is to ask a shaila if it is permissible or not — and if so in what circumstances.February 1, 2009 4:50 am at 4:50 am #638868
Regarding your second point. Your close and personal friend Joseph seems to spend much of his waking hours on YWN. I however in addition to having a job, keep a daily four (4) hour seder with my chavrusa. So exuse me if I don’t share in your vorts on a internet blog. If I want to see a vort ill open a sefer.
Joseph, you’ve managed to do it again. You gave a response. “Kefira IS I problem yada yada yada”. There was no tachlis to that comment. You didn’t provide any reasons why you believe that. You did it simply to get under his skin. It was NOT productive in anyway.February 1, 2009 5:07 am at 5:07 am #638869squeakParticipant
Wow, azi. A job, a 4 hour seder, the occasional post on YW, AND you still have time to hang out in front of unsavory shops that have disturbing advertisements!February 1, 2009 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #638871
What in the world are you talking about?February 1, 2009 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #638872amichaiParticipant
people, lets remember, words or arrows.February 1, 2009 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #638873jphoneMember
“Smoking vs. Bochurim on the Internet”.
Sounds like the undercard at UFC 98.February 1, 2009 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #638875teenMember
whats tbe undercard at UFC 98?February 1, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #638876
azi, thanks for the support, but to an extent, Joseph did answer me. My question to him was slightly unfair, b/c it is difficult to put the logic behind it into eloquent prose.
Can I make a slight request? Thusfar, this topic has retained a high level of both intellectual honesty, as well as a low level of personal/ad homenum attacks. Can we keep it that way?February 1, 2009 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #638877
102030 – Thank youFebruary 1, 2009 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #638878
I feel you may be suffering from Stolckhome Syndrome.February 2, 2009 1:29 am at 1:29 am #638880
“Your close and personal friend Joseph seems to spend much of his waking hours on YWN”
who you kidding azi. your here plenty. good for you and your 4 hr seder. is that where you think of all your anti-gedolim and anti-torah ideas”.February 2, 2009 2:40 am at 2:40 am #638881
you people are enough to make me SICK. can’t you stop fighting for even a minute? no, this is not “arguing in learning.” i don’t believe for even a second that any of you are being completely lshaim shomayim. don’t even try that one.
an argument is ok, but you people are making personal attacks. it’s enough to turn ANYONE off. it’s SICKENING!February 2, 2009 4:02 am at 4:02 am #638882
azi … i don’t think so … if i may be so arrogant, I would like to say that I merely possess a higher level of intellectual honesty than you do, and therefore are able to concede with grace.
That being said, Joseph, do you mind trying to qualify and PROVE (sorry don’t know how to underline, the caps are not shouting in this case, it is for emphasis only) what you are saying? I am curious to hear your views on thisFebruary 2, 2009 4:29 am at 4:29 am #638883
moish01, you’re 100% right. All that was totally wrong. We all make mistakes.February 2, 2009 4:36 am at 4:36 am #638884
First of all, thanks again.
There is a heter called “kidei l’horos”, which means in order to rule a halahcic issue you may read kefirah, etc. Rav Avigdor Miller went to Rav Moshe ZT”L and asked him if he can read the New Testament. Rav Moshe said yes, but only you, since you’re doing it for the purpose of disproving it. Objective reading of such material is not k’dei l’horos and is prohibited.February 2, 2009 5:11 am at 5:11 am #638885
So the tables have turned. How did this happen to us?
“I merely possess a higher level of intellectual honesty than you do”
Also what happened to your own request that “Thusfar, this topic has retained a high level of both intellectual honesty, as well as a low level of personal/ad homenum attacks. Can we keep it that way?”
“and therefore are able to concede with grace”
So you followed this sentence with a request to Joseph asking him to explain his position. So what exactly did you conede to? How can you concede to an opinion you dont understand?
I do not have any anti-rabbonim or anti-Torah ideas. I just have different ideas then you. If your ideas and views of Das Torah are the only right ones then how would you view Jews from previous generations who did have emunas chachomim, but for different reasons then you. Or for which things they sought after a Rav’s advice and council. No body ever asked the Pnei Yehoshua what do eat for dinner.
And how would you like it if I said your ideas are apikorsis for your views about beings of flesh and blood?February 2, 2009 6:57 am at 6:57 am #638888
tis, The moderators do a pretty good job. You are perhaps the only one who could literally yell at an at risk teenager:
Is it just me who was totally thrown off, and horrified, by torahis1? Almost seems like you are acting excatly the way the pople you are ridiculing act.
Torahis1 your remarks are just staggering and beyond belief.
Torahis1. What the…..
Why are you taking things so personally? So two people have a difference in opinion that doesn’t mean anyone hates each other.
Is there anyone here who hates another member of the CR???
I don’t think so…February 2, 2009 7:08 am at 7:08 am #638889
hey C”C, if that wasn’t L”H then what is?
moderator, i sent in a message and i’m realizing now why you probably didn’t post it… is it too much for me to ask you to edit it? i’d really appreciate it.February 2, 2009 7:44 am at 7:44 am #638890
i guess that’s a “no.”February 2, 2009 9:29 am at 9:29 am #638891teenMember
torahis1: We have Josephs here, and some others just like him
do you mean like you? i have nothing against joseph but for some reason i dont like your attitude to muchFebruary 2, 2009 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #638892
Finally someone else who understands anonymous personalities for what they are. I would thank you for your comment, but that is really something that Joseph does and it always reminds me of children slapping five after they finish bullying another child.
I happen to have a theroy about Joseph. I believe he looks at himself as a self appointed moderator of YWN. He seaarches for discussions that he doesn’t like and tries to interfere and interupt them. He may have even asked a Rav if he should do it and recieved a reply in the affirmative. Since if he never spoke to a Rav abot using a computer he is just a unbelievable hypocrite. (He may actually be a real moderator that poses as a Member to try and steer discussions in a certain way).
You probanly don’t see or recognize the constant negativity and dislike of others coming from Joseph. You have an appropriate screen name.
So not only can people not use the internet, but now they can’t even have lively dicussions! I don’t believe that personal attacks that take place here are so bad, as everybody is anonymous. I never felt insulted when everone started ganging up on me.February 2, 2009 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #638893
Sorry … i meant gratuitous personal insults …
As well, I gave Joseph a way out, but still requested that if he can, to justify his claim.
Joseph, I am not certain that you are correct. I know that there are Rabbonim (and I have the ability to name names, although I will not in such a public forum, for reasons I am sure you understand), who have allowed the objective study of said heresy, provided they could handle it.February 2, 2009 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #638894
Rabbi Solovetchik was not against the teaching of biblical criticism at YU. It was tought there to college aged people without the heter Joseph referred to. (By the way I never spent a day in YU, im a Beis Medrash Gavoah alumnus).
Maybe hundreds of years ago there was a need to have a specific reason to not study outside literature. For example they lived much more sheltered lives, so it makes sense that Rabbonim would outlaw it, to keep their enclosed lifestyle. But in todays modern and open world there may not be anything wrong with it.
Or at least one of the previous generations Gedolei Hadar R’ Yosef Dov Solovetchik’s Das Torah was that it isn’t assur. You can’t argue with Das Torah.
(Joseph’s next comment: There IS something wrong with it.)February 2, 2009 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #638895squeakParticipant
Why wait for Joseph’s comment? Your first sentence says all that needs to be said.February 2, 2009 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #638896
it might not bother you, but the rest of us around here don’t enjoy witnessing adults behaving like four year-olds. i could theoretically avoid this thread, but i don’t want to.
i just want to say one thing. this is the kind of situation when i say that fum people are the biggest hypocrites on the planet and i have no desire in the world to be one of them. we’re both going to burn at the end of the day. in that case, i’d rather be a decent human being who is mechalel shabbos than keep mitzvos and be a creep. at least i have manners.February 2, 2009 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #638897
You must be a mekubal because you speak in riddles.February 2, 2009 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #638899notpashutMember
Think about it.February 2, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #638900
ames, compared to barbarians, what’s the question?February 2, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #638901
moish you asked me to comment here- but sometimes silence is louder than words 😉
honestly- I have not a clue regarding your manners (but they don’t sound too terrible)
PS- at least barbarians know in what direction their decisions/actions are taking them
I know it’s not fair to do this after I make such an ambiguous comment… but I gotta run. see ya’ll tomorrow (or maybe not- will see… keep the suspense going)February 2, 2009 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #638902
azi: start acting your age and not your IQ. you continue to put people down to promote your opicorsis opinions on Judiasm. You say you have a seder and went to BMG. why should anyone here believe you? you could be a married, retired old bubby. and if its true then your here all day and night minus your 4 hrs.February 3, 2009 12:47 am at 12:47 am #638903
azi, allow me to interpret the mekubal squeak’s comment for you.
1. Your first sentence was “Rabbi Solovetchik was not against the teaching of biblical criticism at YU.”
2. Your running on the foundation that there is nothing wrong with biblical criticism, makes further discussion with you fruitless.February 3, 2009 3:02 am at 3:02 am #638904
In Azi’s defense, he never said there was nothing wrong with biblical criticism … as someone who has studied it on my own, I can confidently tell you that it’s foundations are weak and its proofs non-rigorous.
However, if in fact, Rabbi Solovetchik did allow it to be taught, clearly he had a reason, to which I am not sureFebruary 3, 2009 4:38 am at 4:38 am #638905
moish01, while there may be frum people that are “creeps”, that doesn’t mean we all are. That’s like saying that since some people who don’t do mitzvos hate their parents, all of them do. You can be frum and still be a fine and decent person. And if you say yeah, there are some who are both but most are one or the other, you have to realize that for some reason, the more extreme a faction of judaism is, the more vocal it tends to be. In other words, just because 50% of people here in the CR hold one thing doesn’t mean that 50% of all jews think the same thing. The numbers could be closer to ten percent, or closer to ninety. Also, count the how many CR members there are, then count how many you consider “creeps”. I think (hope?) that you’ll realize that most of are, more or less, decent people.February 3, 2009 5:35 am at 5:35 am #638906
mw13, since when do i think rationally? 😉 no but seriously, it’s not just the fact that it’s going on. but that i pointed it out twice and got stupid comments back. for god’s sake, what makes this any better than nivul peh? why is THAT pounced upon in a second while this can just go by?
and that goes back to the “don’t judge judaism by the jews.” which i admit is kind of sad. but at least frum jews shouldn’t fit into this category.February 3, 2009 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #638907
moish- i hear your perspective, but will have to respectfully disagree.
firstly- mw13 is 100% correct.
secondly- so there are hypocrites out there. yeah? and? so?
There are mental people, sick people, quiet people, loud people, farfrumpte people, farkrimpte people, modern people, warped people… and hypocritical people. So whatcha gonna do bout it?? They’re everywhere- not exclusively in the frum community. We all go through life with these nutjobs at our sides. Is that an excuse to just drop everything and run in the other direction?
so you get completely turned off by hypocrites… so don’t associate yourself with them. Find other nicer, more honest, more REAL (frum) people to stick around.
squeak’s theory on blaming others would fit in nicely right around here….
(moish- sorry if i sound like I’m bashing you. It’s not you per se, but the world at large and the entire twisted situation. Don’t take it the wrong way)February 3, 2009 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #638908
i hear you. no answer.February 3, 2009 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #638909
wow- I rendered moish speechless…
what’d I do? what’d I do? what’d I do?February 3, 2009 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #638910
not gonna give you the satisfaction of knowing. sorry, man.February 4, 2009 2:32 am at 2:32 am #638913kapustaParticipant
Moish was it the hypocritical attitude that caused you to go “off”?
(I just used that for lack of a better term, it makes you sound like a light switch.)
one more question (I know I’m heading toward a random question award) but if you do something which you know is forbidden, which part are you doing it for? the sin itself, the idea of going against that which you’ve been taught all along, or just being able to do whatever you want?February 4, 2009 3:07 am at 3:07 am #638914
moish01, you want to see how a real jew argues? Copy and paste this URL address ,then read comment #7February 4, 2009 3:13 am at 3:13 am #638915
mw13 – beautiful find.February 4, 2009 3:17 am at 3:17 am #638916torahtzivaMember
THE ONLY TIME IT IS MUTAR FOR abachur to smoke 100% is on purimFebruary 4, 2009 3:24 am at 3:24 am #638917
torahtziva … why is it muttar then?February 4, 2009 3:29 am at 3:29 am #638918torahtzivaMember
IT is mutar on purim because it brings happiness.February 4, 2009 3:35 am at 3:35 am #638919
torahtziva, ushmartem mioed es nafshosaychem also applies on purim.February 4, 2009 3:40 am at 3:40 am #638920kabbalah manMember
i think both are bad but i now the dangers of the internet and for a bochur you wants to learn rather he smoke then go on the internet for inapprotiate things “stam” internet is not so bad but please do neither both are forbbdein “smoking is contrversial so do not argue with me about it i know already”February 4, 2009 3:42 am at 3:42 am #638921
mw13, yeah i saw that earlierFebruary 4, 2009 3:59 am at 3:59 am #638922
its not mutar on purim. its just accepted
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