Jews And Starbucks

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  • #799603

    myfriend
    Member

    I’m seeing your point. But that doesn’t make your conclusion necessarily correct.

    #799604

    In Los Angeles they have a Starbucks like chain called “Coffee Bean and Tea”. Every store we were in (this is going back 4-5 years) had a hechsher, don’t remember which, but do remember from my pre-trip planning, that it was widely accepted in LA. Not only were ALL the coffees kosher, but so was everything that was sold in the store – sandwiches, muffins, etc. After I came back to NY, I sent them an email complimenting them – as the stores were also very pleasant to sit in. Unfortunately, whoever the owner(s) are, didn’t have the big bucks it would take to open a franchise in NYC. This is their kashrut info from their website http://coffeebean.com/Keeping-Kosher-W249C125.aspx.

    #799605

    Homeowner
    Member

    A Woman outside bklyn, Thanks for the tip. I see they are in Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport although I’ve never noticed them. I will definitely look the next time I am there.

    #799606

    Feif Un
    Participant

    There is no problem buying a coffee in McDonalds. I heard that straight from a very prominent Rav.

    Here’s a funny story: I was once driving from Canada to Brooklyn overnight. At one point, I stopped at a rest area, and wanted a coffee to help me stay awake. It was about 2 am, and the McDonald’s at the rest stop was the only thing open. I went to the counter and asked for a plain black coffee. The guy behind the register looked at me, looked at my kippah, and said, “I thought Jews aren’t supposed to eat at McDonald’s? We’re not kosher!”

    I explained that plain coffee was fine, and he was glad to learn something new.

    #799607

    Homeowner
    Member

    I am reliably informed that the steel milk pitchers at Starbucks are rinsed in the sinks and then washed in the dishwasher along with the porcelain trays that hold the pastries. (The trays are also rinsed before being placed in the dishwasher.)

    I will leave the question of the permissibility of using the milk open to those here.

    #799609

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If one puts cold milk into a steel pitcher which was washed in a dishwasher with treifus, one is allowed to drink the milk since the milk is not stored in the container for 24 hours. Also, there was probably soap in the dishwasher. (We seem to rely on soap, despite that the shach and taz don’t like this heter.)

    Now, since the trays were rinsed, and there is no reason to think they are ever used for hot food, then even if the above was not true, the milk in the pitchers would still be muttar.

    #799610

    frumladygit
    Member

    Bottom line is : IF people want their STARBUCKS COFFEE THAT MUCH They will find a way to get it. Excuses are just that.

    #799611

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    frumlady:

    Why would you say that? Has any Rov told you it is assur? This entire thread is just a bunch of boich svaros; why are you accusing people of eating treif based on that?

    #799612

    frumladygit
    Member

    Do I need to ask if its ok to buy cut up fruit from a nonkosher caterer? After all its just fruit. According to your reasoning there are no problems with just a “black coffee”.

    My point is that people who want their Starbucks coffee will overlook whats wrong with it. There are many problems with it, as have been discussed above.

    #799613

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    frum lady:

    I understood your point precisely, and that is what I am criticizing. You have no basis beyond speculation for your “issur”, and based on your speculation, you accuse huge numbers of fine Jews of eating treif and justifying it because they simply “want it”.

    As far as your cut up fruit, you do need to ask. It is not very simple that you cannot. I am working with the assumption that the knife was cleaned before being used for fruit, in which case the worst you would need is to wash the fruit (or depending on the fruit, perhaps cut off a klipa). If we then use the rule of “stam keilim einum bnei yoman”, we can say that you don’t even need to wash them.

    As regards “my reasoning”, I have reasoned nothing except that one should not rely on boich svaros to malign other Jews.

    #799614

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Frumlady, my Rav has told me its muttar. Not that there is a way around if I really need or want it…MUTTAR.

    Why should I listen to the rantings of a woman on the internet?

    #799615

    A Rav told us that in a greengrocer, the cut up melon is not a problem, because a green grocer only sells fruits and veggies, not ham sandwiches. He also says that goyim are very particular about what knives they use, and they wouldn’t use the same knife they slice meat with to cut produce. I’d find it hard to believe that no one who’s cried “ussar” in this thread hasn’t ever bought a cut up watermelon in a grocery store.

    #799616

    Helpful
    Member

    Perhaps its hard to believe in a place outside of Bklyn, but those of us in Brooklyn ARE strict in our kosher observances.

    #799617

    I’d find it hard to believe that no one who’s cried “ussar” in this thread hasn’t ever bought a cut up watermelon in a grocery store.

    i guess you feel that way because of the circles of people you find yourself in

    im not even one of those “crying ussar” but i would not buy cut up watermelon from a grocery store, nor would any of my friends. there is certainly room to say its mutar but i would absolutely not eat such a thing.

    #799618

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’m in the same boat as Mod-80 on this. While it’s not something I would do myself, I would never castigate someone else who does it — much like my opinion on the Flatbush Eruv.

    The Wolf

    #799619

    dunno
    Member

    frumladygit:

    Bottom line is don’t look down upon us who drink Starbucks coffee when we were told it’s completely muttar. If you don’t want to drink it, fine. Just keep your holier than thou attitude away from it.

    #799620

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Perhaps its hard to believe in a place outside of Bklyn, but those of us in Brooklyn ARE strict in our kosher observances.

    Are you sure, Helpful? I think some might say that the avir of chutz l’brooklyn causes people to be nichshol in kashrus. 🙂 :p

    The Wolf

    #799621

    This thread is really fascinating and revealing. seems to be unique among all other threads here of this sort.

    the generally more machmir crowd is taking the side of Mutar here.

    the generally more makil crowd is taking the side of Assur

    #799622

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    the generally more makil crowd is taking the side of Assur

    I’m assuming (if I’m wrong, please feel free to correct me) that you put me in this group.

    If so, I’d like to clarify. I don’t think that it’s assur. Just because I won’t do it does not mean that I believe the action to be forbidden. I just believe that there are too many variables for me to take into account, so I’m just better off without. But that’s a far cry from saying that it’s forbidden.

    The Wolf

    #799623

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mod80, I’m fairly consistent. Unless you think I’m generally machmir?

    OOC, would you buy frozen vegetables without a hechsher? I’m talking about vegetables that don’t require a hechsher. Not broccoli or anything like that.

    We generally don’t buy fresh cut up fruits or vegetables either.

    #799624

    aries2756
    Participant

    Actually it is very easy to be assur on everything if you don’t know the halachas that distinguish the issue between mutar and assur. It is very easy to say assur on everything and that makes life simpler than to actually understand why something is mutar. That is the difference of just stam a RAV and a Posek who is on a higher madreigah and has studied more to be ABLE to KNOW and actually pasken sheilos for these very reasons. It is not a matter of looking for a heter or doing whatever you can to have your coffee.

    Obviously a Hechsher organization who says its mutar has way more knowledge on this issue than anyone stam speculating on why it should not be. They would have discussed among THEIR POSKIM the ins and outs of ALL the various situations and questions regarding the issues and halachas involved.

    So are we arguing stam to argue? Are we trying to say that the we know more than the hechsher organizations who say it is mutar? Are we saying that the Hechsher organizations are not valid? What exactly is the point of the conversation at this juncture? Where are we going with this?

    #799625

    mosherose
    Member

    “much like my opinion on the Flatbush Eruv.”

    Accept that all the gedolim have said that the socalled eruv is mamash passul. So why do you use it and be mechalel shabbas?

    #799626

    SJ

    yes i would say you are consistent here

    wolf too

    maybe i made a mistake in my analysis

    #799628

    Just to clarify, I’m referring to, for example, going to Pathmark/Waldbaums/Shoprite – you know, your standard regular grocery store, and buying a half a watermelon. I wasn’t talking about fruit salad type cut up.

    Mod, I’m confused where I fit in your concept that “the generally more machmir crowd is taking the side of Mutar here.

    the generally more makil crowd is taking the side of Assur”. But that’s OK, the Rav referred to is a Posek who gets calls from around the world, and studied halacha under Rav Elyashiv shlita.

    It’s the old story, told on YWN and elsewhere that it often takes more knowledge to know what’s muttar then what’s assur.

    #799629

    yeah, i confused myself too

    see my last post

    #799630

    frumladygit
    Member

    Aries I like what you wrote. But I just have one question. These kashrus organizations like OU also put hechshierim on products that are not necessarily bishul or pas Israel. For example, potatoe chips, breakfast cereals, granola bars.

    On what do they base this? It says clearly in the SHulcan Aruch its a major averiah to eat these things if they are not bishul.

    Like I said before, the fact is people DONT want to know. And the people who want to know – know it already.

    #799631

    frumladygit
    Member

    Go to Starbucks homepage, FAQ’s

    http://www.starbucks.com/customer-service/faqs/menu

    There is a question :

    Are your beverages kosher?

    So I am asking is it ok to have non-jews preparing Kosher drinks without supervision? I dont know. Someone answer.

    #799632

    aries2756
    Participant

    frumladygit, if you have a question on kashrus you should direct it to a kashrus organization they have websites as well as phone numbers. It is totally inappropriate to direct it to a blog!

    #799633

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    frumlady:

    It is also a major aveira to slander people, especially rabbonim.

    Also, you are lying. It does not say in the shulchan aruch that potato chips, granola bars, and breakfast cereal need to be bishul yisroel. (None of those things existed. Especially potato chips which had not yet been brought from America.)It is a major aveira to lie.

    So I am asking is it ok to have non-jews preparing Kosher drinks without supervision? I dont know. Someone answer.

    You don’t know? Based on your don’t know you are slandering most of the frum jews in America?

    In any event, the answer is that it is ok.

    #799634

    frumladygit
    Member

    popabar I did not slander people. I think you may have an insecurity complex issue, based on how you receive/perceive my statements when it comes to issues close to your heart, or coffee cup. However your problem is not within the context of this thread for me to address here, so I will just say that it is a fact that foods which cannot be eaten before cooked such as the above mentioned examples need to be cooked by a Jew. That is in the Shulcan Aruch.

    Now as for your accusation that I am slandering rabbonim, I did not use anyones name. So it is impossible to have.

    Futhermore, I do not even know the name of which Rav you people such as SYSinNYC or dunno claim to have gotten a “mutter” from. THere are many different kinds of “rabbis” who “hold” differently. THerefore you see OU saying that breakfast cereals do not have to be pas israel.

    WHen someone like myself holds differently that is not slandering another person.

    Aries2756 if it is the case that discussing Starbucks and kashrus questions on blogs is inappropriate why haven’t you or anyone else pointed this out when the OT first opened this thread?

    The OT mentions many things in his initial post. Such as what is your opinion as to the establishment holding breakfast sandwiches that are vadai tarfus.

    He mentions many “shailas”, however it was only a discussion until I pointed out the many issues as I shared my firsthand “inside” information from past employment experience in such an food and drink place. THat was when I was accused of slandering Rabbonim and having a holier than thou attitude above the coffee drinkers.

    By the way, not one person has been able to properly address the question as to where ‘they’ rely on certain things do not need be produced bishul/pas israel. Just a bunch of bashing.

    #799635

    aries2756
    Participant

    frumladygit, exactly for the reasons you yourself mention. Because the OP was just asking for opinions and YOU are pointedly asking pushing your opinions against what Rabbonim have already paskened and what Kashrus organizations already responded as pointed out by other posters. YOU are the one saying THEY are wrong.

    #799636

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popabar I did not slander people.

    the fact is people DONT want to know

    I have nothing to add.

    Now as for your accusation that I am slandering rabbonim, I did not use anyones name.

    These kashrus organizations like OU also put hechshierim on products that are not necessarily bishul or pas Israel….It says clearly in the SHulcan Aruch its a major averiah to eat these things if they are not bishul.

    I have nothing to add.

    so I will just say that it is a fact that foods which cannot be eaten before cooked such as the above mentioned examples need to be cooked by a Jew.

    Incorrect. If they are not eaten raw, and are also served on royal tables. YD 113:1

    #799637

    frumladygit
    Member

    Hello???? Aries2756 Back in the thread it has been mentioned that Starbucks is not ok-ed by CrC but only by OU. That is one of the reasons and nature of the purpose of a Discussion like this.

    If I bring this up its not wrong. Its a discussion. CrC doesnt hold like OU.

    Ok you hold by your rav and I will hold by mine, and we’ll all be happy drinking our favorite coffees with sweet smiles on our faces, and fingers dancing wildly over the keyboard of our laptops, whilst sipping our hot drinks! (hopefully not arguing here anymore)

    LUV YA!

    #799638

    frumladygit
    Member

    OK so IF …if…if I have been wrong and unintentionally offended any members, relatives, wives, shareholders or rabbis of the OU Kashrus organization I sincerely and humbly apologize as my only intention was to argue with popabaraba.

    I would not otherwise be able to fall asleep with a clear conscience. But you still wont catch me drinking a Starbucks ok?

    #799639

    Tazo tea passion flavor is so yum!!

    #799640

    artchill
    Participant

    frumladygit:

    I am very close with and supporter of Lubavitch in Illinois. I respect your fierce adherence to Bishul Yisroel. However, the OU can certainly be relied upon. Coffee is one such example.

    From OU website:

    A. Five reasons why a food might be exempt from bishul akum (non-Jewish cooking) regardless of how it is cooked.

    Edible raw: Foods which are edible raw are excluded from the prohibition of bishul akum. Foods which people would eat raw but are always pasteurized for safety, are considered edible raw.

    [The OU certifies pat paltar (non-Jewish baker’s bread) as Kosher]. No arrangement required by the (but food may otherwise be subject to bishul akum)

    If you need more clarity look at Chabad.org:

    http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/947606/jewish/Laws-of-Bishul-Yisrael.htm

    #799641

    frumladygit
    Member

    Thank you artchill.

    #799642

    truthsharer
    Member

    Just FTR, Bishul Yisrael and Pas Yisrael are not in the same boat.

    One is a requirement (which of course has parameters) and one is a chumra that was until recently not accepted by the vast majority of Jews.

    #799643

    Homeowner
    Member

    What does coffee have to do with Bishul Yisrael?

    #799644

    aries2756
    Participant

    frumladygit, thanks agreed, but I don’t go into starbucks because they boycott Israel so it has nothing to do with Kashrus. I might go into Dunkin Donuts on occasion though. I don’t drink much coffee these days.

    #799645

    metrodriver
    Member

    Poppa-Bar-Abba; In reference to Ladygit’s original question about whether Bishul Yisroel is required on cereals and other condiments. She asked a rhetorical question. “How come Rabbonim are issuing Hechsheirim on those products”?! You said that it was Loshon Hora. I’m sorry to dispute your verdict. But since when is asking questions, especially without mentioning any names, L”H?!

    #799646

    Homeowner
    Member

    aries, Starbucks doesn’t boycott Israel. Please read the following article completely.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/israel/starbucks.asp

    By the way, in this economy, when they already had to shut down lots of stores in the US, it’s probably not the best time to expand to a foreign country.

    #799647

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    metro:

    I think you need to go back and read the posts in question.

    #799648

    RenaD
    Member

    I saw this thread and I thought you might be interested in this article called:

    “What’s Really Kosher at Starbucks?”

    http://www.communitym.com/article.asp?article_id=100536

    The author is makpid and did extensive research. Of course, she is not a posek, but the article merely opens your eyes so you realize what is questionable. She says don’t rely on her info too, but ask Rabbi….drinks for thought.

    #799649

    aries2756
    Participant

    Homeowner, please you can dance around the issues all you want, but truth is truth, if starbucks is so popular in America AND in Arab counties, HAD they wanted to make it big in ISRAEL they would have. THEY chose to be friends of the ARABS instead of friends of ISRAEL. They can explain it any which way they choose to but the truth is the truth, they made a choice and the choice was to make nice with the Arabs.

    #799650

    Homeowner
    Member

    ariesaries, you’re killing me. Here’s a webpage of an Arab group calling for a boycott of Starbucks because the Jewish CEO, Howard Schultz, supports Israel.

    http://www.inminds.com/boycott-starbucks.html

    There’s more to opening up in a foreign country than just wanting to do so.

    #799651

    Homeowner
    Member

    RenaD, thank you for posting the link, but in just skimming the first part, I find several errors that call into question the accuracy of the entire page.

    1. In many local Starbucks shops, the hot chocolate behind the bar is not kosher, while the one on the retail shelf bears a Chaf-K Dairy.

    I don’t know when this was written because Starbucks has had at least three different hot chocolates in the past few years. Here are the ingredients of a cup of “hot chocolate” served in New York as of last week when I asked:

    The kashruth issues concerning this are those that I posted in my original message but of course, everyone individually should verify the kashruth of any product you buy.

    I don’t know what the writer is talking about. The only syrup for sale to the public is the one liter size of Starbucks syrup which has the OU. (Or at least all the flavors I’ve seen had it. Please check yourself before buying.)

    3. the knife used to cut the ham or turkey sandwich

    Again, as noted previously, there are no knives to wash as the only knives in the store are the indvidually wrapped plastic knives. The sandwiches are made and wrapped elsewhere.

    I continue to welcome a discussion of the halachic aspects of patronizing Starbucks. I merely ask that it be based on facts.

    #799652

    Helpful
    Member

    It’s a conspiracy aries; a conspiracy.

    #799653

    aries2756
    Participant

    Homeowner, all your proving is that he has a great PR firm. Tell me if he is such a great supporter of Israel, what the heck is he doing in all the Arab nations? And don’t you dare tell me business is business. You can’t support Israel and the Arabs at the same time. That boils down to that Mr. Shultz is just plain a double talker and all he supports is Mr. Shultz so you can’t believe anything he or his PR firm says.

    #799654

    aries2756
    Participant

    Helpful, you talkin ta me?????

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