November 27, 2008 12:02 am at 12:02 am #588752
After reading through a number of threads, it has become apparent that a number of individuals (bloggers) maintain that there is an issur of holding conversation with a (unrelated) member of the opposite gender. This being the case, how is it permissible to hold conversations via a blog (YWN) with members of the opposite gender?November 27, 2008 12:42 am at 12:42 am #662903
i dont know…November 27, 2008 12:45 am at 12:45 am #662904
First of all, on these threads we are talking to everyone, as if making a speech, and of course one may give a speech to the opposite gender.
Second of all the problem with talking to the opposite gender is tznius/flirting. This is clearly not happening on a yeshivish website with amazing moderators.November 27, 2008 12:55 am at 12:55 am #662905
it probably is considered almost the same, but not as bad…probably like the difference between an issur d’oraysa/min haTorah and an issur d’rabanan.
i shouldnt be blogging to any of you now if you feel it’s wrong but i just thought id make that point. maybe consult your LOR (local orthodox rabbi)November 27, 2008 12:59 am at 12:59 am #662907
i dont think there is anything wrong on ywm plus how u supposed 2 know with the wakiest namesNovember 27, 2008 1:29 am at 1:29 am #662910
i dont really think there is anything wrong either. about these “wacky names” some ppl like having different identities or at least diff. personalities that they may not have the chance to express with friends/family. im not in any way calling posters with wacky names schizophrenic. just justifying these “wacky names”.November 27, 2008 2:42 am at 2:42 am #662911
i totaly disagree with you , for many people are directing their responses to specific UsernamesNovember 27, 2008 2:49 am at 2:49 am #662912
JAPP: im confused. what are you trying to say? whats your point?November 27, 2008 2:54 am at 2:54 am #662913
BYmadel you are one of theses wacky names i refer 2November 27, 2008 3:05 am at 3:05 am #662914
By madel: many people look for certain users I.E. BYM, thereby talking to a specific gender, thats why i disagree with you and think its assurNovember 27, 2008 3:05 am at 3:05 am #662915
no i actually consider myself someone that lives up to my name.
what about you? are you always laughing?November 27, 2008 3:49 am at 3:49 am #662916
i see your point. but i kinda thought my user name would shove off those BY Yingele 🙂
i like to think of myself as someone that thinks things through. like choosing a user name. i might have been influenced by attending the BY convention this past week …
but back to the point, im not sure about its assurness. because i agree with “ashrecha yisrael” (cool name A.Y.)–this amazong webiste has amazing moderators for exactly this purpose.
trust me, otherwise, as the BYM that i am, i would not be on this website.
so whyd you choos JAPP?? lol you dont havta that 🙂November 27, 2008 4:02 am at 4:02 am #662917
I think it is important that people learn the difference between assur and siyag latoirah… I find that a lot of acual halacha gets crossed over because we are not taught the difference always of whats precaution and what is real. When a girl is told its assur to speak to a boy and then she comes in a situation where she has to, either it can make things very difficult or it can have the opposite affect, once she crossed over that line and it didnt seem so bad then maybe some of the other mamish assur things aint that bad either. unfortunately I have seen this scenario too many times. From boys and girls. There must be separation because of tznius, as a preventative to worse things.
As for the YWN aspect… it taka can be an issue if people step overboard. I wouldn’t rate it as forming a relationship like an IM because we really dont give identities and genders (except some) but a group conversation to accomplish a thought or a point is basically all that is meant to be on this.
If you feel that it is lowering your ruchniyus standards and you are crossing the line, by all means, please refrain from participating in conversation. And if you feel someone else is… maybe give a loving warning or alert our dearest mods and eds. 🙂November 27, 2008 4:12 am at 4:12 am #662918
shkoyach- shkoyach!!November 27, 2008 4:14 am at 4:14 am #662920
thank you shkoyach for your clarification. i see the difference with siyagim and assur gamur stuffNovember 27, 2008 4:47 am at 4:47 am #662921
Since blogging is totally anonymous, for all we know Bais Yackov Maydel is really a 48 year old married father of 6. Or a 17 year old boy. For all you know, I’m Bais Yackov Maydel. The point is, take anything and everything you read on a site where posters are totally anonymous with a very large grain of salt.November 27, 2008 4:57 am at 4:57 am #662922
attn jphone: i like to consider myself many things, one of them is being an honest person.
why dont you check out my post on the “how old are you?” topic.
HOWEVER, you are right and i am not trying to make e/o believe that i am an almost 18-yr old HS girl, b/c its really not up to me to decide what others want to think.
in addition, jphone brings me to state an important point: i dont care what age ppl think i am or if they believe me or not about what i say about myself–im here to give my opinions, and i think thats what mattersNovember 27, 2008 5:08 am at 5:08 am #662923
I’m not accusing anyone of being something different than what they imply. All I’m saying is take everything with a grain of salt. A screen name might imply something exactly the opposite of what someone really is, it might be right on the money and it might be the first bit of nonesense that popped into someones head when looking for a screen name.November 27, 2008 6:54 am at 6:54 am #662924
I don’t understand how it could be a problem talking to people here? The issur is getting too close and crossing the line of tzniyus with a woman. This is an anonymous webforum. There’s no pictures or even avatars. There is no issur of sending a woman an email either.November 27, 2008 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #662925
Takeh not pashut,not pashut.November 27, 2008 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #662926
The only Issur of this coffee room is Bitul Torah…otherwise…November 27, 2008 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #662927
Talking w/members of the opposite gender can quickly lead to many sins be4 any1 even realizes that bad stuff is going on. This has happened 2 many time already, as so many of us have been unfortunate to witness ourselves…November 27, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #662928
jphone: youre absolutely right.November 27, 2008 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #662929
chacham2, everything starts by an email
however, in this case its a public forum therby you are not speaking to any one individualNovember 27, 2008 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #662930
BYmadel yes i laugh all day and so u live up to ure name by posting on YWN all day thats nice 2 knowNovember 27, 2008 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #662931
actually im new to ywn, and so yes, its hard to keep my eyes off the screen, but im getting better at it, have you noticed the time gaps between posts?
reading the posts on the topic “you know when youre in the coffeeroom for too long when…” (or something like that)has helped me.
i am not your TYPICAL BYM, but nevertheless, i am still a BYMNovember 28, 2008 3:34 am at 3:34 am #662932
efsher ywn will start a new coffe room for the womenNovember 28, 2008 6:03 am at 6:03 am #662933
dont have internetMember
bugyes— maybe yw will start a new coffee room for the men….aahaDecember 1, 2008 12:35 am at 12:35 am #662934
hey mabye this will solve the shidduch crisis a shidduch chat room lolDecember 1, 2008 1:51 am at 1:51 am #662936
if only…December 1, 2008 4:44 am at 4:44 am #662937
That would make it worse… (intermingling.)December 1, 2008 5:21 am at 5:21 am #662938
The Big OneParticipant
The Rabbonim are not keen on that. And I’d trust the Rabbonim a lot faster than any laymen.December 1, 2008 7:18 am at 7:18 am #662939
Shkoyach (:p) on your remark about gedarim, it’s mamash really something people don’t know enough about.
When I spoke with ( deleted by YW Moderator ) about joining the Air Force, his response was (or at least as much of it as I’m sharing), “As long as you won’t be mechallel Shabbos.” This was distinguished from working on Shabbos, which may happen, but without actual chillul. Another thing I’d like to add on, though, is the idea of “inconsistency is not hypocrisy.” Just because a guy tries not to speak with girls doesn’t mean if one holds the door open for him he shouldn’t say thank you, etc. etc.
As for speaking to people online, even when gender is implied in a user name, I think the internet’s inherent anonymity makes it ok since you really have no idea what gender they are. That and the filtering, as well as the public forum, I think makes it, though not ideal, ok.December 1, 2008 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #662940
These are the words of the message that began this thread:
“After reading through a number of threads, it has become apparent that a number of individuals (bloggers) maintain that there is an issur of holding conversation with a (unrelated) member of the opposite gender.” (Yes, I did not include the question about “speaking” in a blog room, intentionally)
. Has anyone ever gone shopping (bakery, grocery, bank, gas station, clothing store – the list is endless) and had to speak with a member of the opposite gender?
. Has anyone ever called the customer service of any company and had a member of the opposite gender answer their call?
Has any Rav, anywhere, stated it is assur for a man to order a loaf of bread from a member of the opposite gender or for a woman to buy gas if she had to speak with a member of the opposite gender?
The Mishna in Avos says “Al Tarbe SICHA im Isha”, there is a difference between Sicha and Dibbur. See the Sfas Emes on this mishna.
I would add, the mishna says “Syag Lachachma Shtika”, perhaps that includes YWN chatroom, even if it IS annonymous.December 5, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #662943
HI I replied to this than i replied that i didnt see my reply and i dont even see that?December 5, 2008 4:05 am at 4:05 am #662944
well thanks for posting my last post however where is my original..? if you dont like it do i get black slip saying it didnt get in or do i get to wonder if it is in cyber space? i am too tired to write it agian tonight however, thank you for lettin me know i am alive here at yeshiva world news! :-). thought for a minute i was dreaming hereDecember 5, 2008 7:57 am at 7:57 am #662945
Too many tragedies have occurred from what simply started out as an “innocent conversation.”December 5, 2008 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #662946
Bogen, many happy marriages have also started from an “innocent conversation.”December 5, 2008 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #662947
I agree with you SJSinNYC. Met my wife that way. Happily married with two kids.December 5, 2008 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #662948
Blogging with the opposite gender should be ok as it probably won’t lead to mixed dancing.December 5, 2008 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #662949
madshtark – its how I met my husband! I’m happily married with one kid.February 24, 2009 12:19 am at 12:19 am #662951
Hill of BeansMember
I’ve noticed over the past few months here, especially in the general threads, that boys and girls of all ages, including notably some eishes ish’s, have been socialising with each other in a lax manner. I find this a troubling, and people need to use better senses. I know these kinds of loose conversations would not take place between these same people in real life. I don’t know of any heter to do so online. I think we all are aware of stories where such behavior led to improper activities. Rabbosai, please use better judgement and maintain the proper distance from the other gender than befits a Ben Torah and Bas Yisroel.February 24, 2009 2:06 am at 2:06 am #662952
Hill of Beans,
You are right on target with your concerns. The General, Random and some other threads have become like a chatroom, with the kinds of familiarity between the genders that sends shivers down a Yid’s spine.February 24, 2009 2:15 am at 2:15 am #662953
we dont’t know who anybody here is but if we met them in the street i highly doubt we would talk to themFebruary 24, 2009 2:19 am at 2:19 am #662954
Hill of beans: you don’t know for sure, who’s what gender.$ and we do have a CR mechitza.$February 24, 2009 3:16 am at 3:16 am #662956
As shkoyach said earlier there is a difference between an issur and a siyag. There is no issur for men and women to speak to each other. If there was then as jphone pointed out, how can a man go to a bakery and ask a women behind the counter for a loaf of bread. Chazal say to stay far away from arayos. There are some obvious issurim that can come about when men and women interact and therefore certain interactions themselves are assur. When it comes to arayos, in addition to the issurim that the Torah says bifeirush, there is an issur diyoraisa of “lo sikrivu”. Chazal explain this to mean that it is assur to do something that might lead to the actual issur mentioned in the pasuk. For this reason negia is assur diyoraisa. I assume that if a women is walking down a crowded street and a man brushes against her neither did anything wrong as long as it was completely unintentional (If one of them caused the accident then he/she obviously committed an issur and the other one did not). Speaking is a little more lenient in that a man is obviously allowed to buy bread from a woman at the bakery and speak to her in the process. If a man and women pass on the street on Shabbos they are allowed to say “Good Shabbos”. This doesn’t mean that they can have a whole conversation. There is no exact way of explaining what is assur and what isn’t. Every situation is different and you have to use seichel to figure out what might lead to an unhealthy relationship, but it is better to err on the side of caution and remember that chazal say to stay far, far away from arayos.
How do you apply this to online conversations? When men and women speak to each other online in a forum such as this, neither knows who the other is or what the other looks like. You can’t even know for sure that Joseph is a man or Bais Yaakov maydel is a women no matter how much they insist that that is the case. Even if you can determine another poster’s gender, you still don’t know their age and whether they are married. We have rules here in the Coffee Room about revealing personal information and therefore the issur of “lo sikrivu” should not apply at all because the chances of the conversations in the Coffee Room leading to actual contact between posters and then leading to issurim is very low. If, by some chance you do know another poster’s real identity and you are of the opposite gender than you probably should not be conversing with them online.
There is another issur besides “lo sikrivu” which is for men to have bad hirhurim (I assume that women acting untznius is an issur of lifnei iver regarding this). The moderators try to not approve any posts that may cause this. Of course, each person has to know himself and if having an online conversation with an anonymous women you have never met will cause this then you shouldn’t be having those conversations.February 24, 2009 4:05 am at 4:05 am #662957
Wow. I’m torn. I hear what the 2 Hills are saying, and I hear what the mod is saying. Mod42, is there an official Daas Torah who Yeshivaworld follows who can be asked for clarity on this important issue?
You mods have a heavy achrayos here. I wish you all much hatzlacha in keeping this place kosher.
We try to follow your anonymous Rebbe ZTLFebruary 24, 2009 4:28 am at 4:28 am #662958
“Chazal say to stay far away from arayos.”
Thats exactly it. Don’t expect every situation to be written. Chazal say stay far away.
The bakery comparison is a fig leaf. That is a necessity. This is not.
And lets face it. Most people here have identified their gender, marital status, and even roughly their age. In fact, there was a whole thread once dedicated to posters background information.February 24, 2009 4:36 am at 4:36 am #662959
mod42: well said, thanx for clearing that up for us, and so now i know that the mod’s learn, artists(mod42), and have a sense of humor.$February 24, 2009 4:54 am at 4:54 am #662960
qwertyuiop, you forgot my anivus again
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