February 19, 2012 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #853066Sam2Participant
Chacham: Someone specifically asked Rav Schachter in a Shiur a few years ago that according to the Rashba who Rav Schachter holds by for Bal Tigrah (he didn’t quote any opposing Rishonim if I recall correctly) that Bal Tosif and Bal Tigrah are not at all opposite sides of the same coin. In fact, they are very different. You cannot be Over on Bal Tigrah according to the Rashba unless you also fulfill the Mitzvah but not Bishleimusah.February 19, 2012 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #853067
About Mesorah- First of all, that the Maharil, Chemdas shlomo, Malbim, radvaz and all the rabonim in the time of the radziner who held techeiles in theory could come back ( look in the hakdama to ein techeiles where he says Reb Shmuel Salant and The Maharil Diskin and Reb Yitzchok Elchonon Spector all held in theory it could come back and it is known that the Maharsham and reb itzele ponovizher used the Radzhiner techeiles) all clearly disagree with this premises that you need a mesorah. The bais Haleivi is also quoted saying the opposite as I pointed out earlier. So you are on very flimsy grounds.
But let us discuss the general idea of needing a mesorah and not being able to bring rayas from metzious. The way Reb Yoshe Ber Zl said it over is that if we do not have a mesora on on something we cannot bring a raya from the metzious. An example he gave was ???? which the bracha is mezonos. However, there is a safek whether rice is ???? or ????. However later based on rayas from languages and other rayas from metzious the achronim were machria that rice is ????. But Reb Yoshe Ber said based on the fact that the mesora was lost we still do not know what is really ???? therefore you should not eat rice except after making a hamotzie. It should be noted that the gra was one of those achronim who paskened based on the metzious. See tosefes maaseh rav. So the gra disagrees with this idea. But anybody who is using this mesora idea to patur themselves from this mitzvah must be careful not to eat any rice.
In shas the idea of needing a mesora for metzious is not found anywhere. In fact there are many places in shas where amoroim used metzious to prove halachos. One example would be in Bava Basra where Raba bara bar chana tried using the tzitzis of the Meisei Midbar to pasken if the halacha was like bais shamai or bais Hilel.
Another example is Yoma the gemara says hat by the avoda of yomi kippur you do not spray the dam on the peroches….but Reb eliezer brebi Yosi said that he saw the paroches and it had drips of blood from the avodah of yom kippur. The gemara is not just docheh him by saying you cannot bring a raya from metzious. ayin shum vdoik.I can bring at least another 4 examples of cases when the the gemara uses metziousto pasken the halacha.
There is, however, one place in Shulchan Aruch where the idea of Mesora is brought down. By a bird the Torah does not tell us which ones are kosher; it just lists the non-kosher birds. But the gemara gives us simanim to see in the birds and determine if it is kosher. But it is brought down in YD siman 82 that some are machmir not to rely on simanim alone but you also need a mesora. This din is only said Lchumra. The reason is because we are not certain which the 24 non kosher birds are. So we are Machmir and al pi this many are makpid to not eat Turkey.
According to this one should not be able to use a Chazon Ish esrog. However, as I pointed out earlier, the chazon ish (see maaseh ish 3:139) said he has so many rayas from metzious it is better than a mesorah.
And that is it. Those are the only places the din of having a mesora is mentioned. All these places it is used to be machmir, not meikil. And it is very clear these are the only places. The reason for needing a mesora is explained by the taz in yd 82 because we can assume that a tzaddik paskened for them that this oif is good.
edited. Me personally, I have no idea what the answer is. And when my rebbeim start wearing it, I’ll very happily do so as well. I can give you plenty of mekoros about following one’s rebbeim.February 19, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #853068
Toi- let me just point out that medrash is part of torah. The Gra is not just legitimatizing the medrash.if you think nignaz means it can’t be found ( wherever you picked that up) than it means that without the gra quoting it. But if nignaz means it could be found (like I quoted before) than the gra does not suddenly disagree because it is in biur hagra.February 19, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #853069
Chacham: Since you seem to be the chacham in this matter, I have a question that has been bothering me for quite some time. Since there is a machlokes how many strings need to be tcheiles, there is a serious problem in wearing tcheiles if one cannot be machria how many strings. For example let’s assume one string is correct. Well, if someone were to then go ahead and wear four strings of tcheiles, then he doesn’t have the proper amount of lavan(seven strings). So he is wearing a beged without tzitzis. Similarly if four is correct and he wears only one, again he has a beged without tzitzis. If someone wears eight strings lavan he is yotzei lavan but if he wears the wrong combination of lavan and tcheiles he is not yotzei lavan or tcheiles and he is wearing a four-cornered beged without tzitzis. So unless you know how to be machria between the Rambam, Raavad, Tosfos, how can you just pick one shitta?February 19, 2012 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #853070
longarekel- good question.
First of all, if 4 is correct and you only wear one or two strings, you are not doing anything worse than not wearing techeiles. But if 1 is correct and you are wearing 4 than you indeed do loose out, as you are missing min kanaf. However, Min kanaf according to the rama is only a hiddur and is not meakeiv. Of course, If it is a mitzvah or a safek mitzvah than you are required to take a chance to loose that hiddur.
But regarding your question how do we know if we should go like shitas rambam or Raavad or Tosafos, obviously this is not a reason from stopping someone from wearing techeiles. Before there was a hachra’a in the machlokes rashi and rabeinu tam tefilin, it is poshut that somebody living then can’t say I just won’t wear tefilin since there is a machlokes.
So, what should you do?
Some people point out that most rishonim and most achronim are sosem like the shitah of tosafos. However, being that those achronim (ie mishna berura) are not clearly machria, and that it is brought down by the din of gardumim which tosafos will come out being the most machmir we cannot pasken based on that.
But by the way it appears, the gra is machria like the raavad in two places. So why should you go like the gra? Simply because most Poskim ( like Rav moshe and The Chazon Ish and the Steipler etc.) say that in something that you do not have a minhag in follow the opinion og the gr’a.
Ain kan makom lhaarich, but check out the tekhelet website or the tchelet-net website which have a lot of hock about this.February 19, 2012 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #853071
Chacham: You are assuming that tcheiles can count as lavan when it is more or less than necessary. I disagree. The Torah clearly differentiates between tzitzis hakanaf and pesil techeiles. So you are left without the proper amount of lavan or techeiles and are therefore not wearing tzitzis.(this is without the chumra of min kanaf-veha raya a beged of techeiles requires two different types of strings because techeiles cannot count as tzitzis hakanaf even if it is min kanaf) The analogy to tefillin is incorrect because it is not assur to wear the other pair. So wear both and you’re for sure yotzei(as the shulchan aruch in fact recommends). However a beged without tzitzis is assur. So unless you are machria, wear all lavan (or all techeiles-according to most opinions).February 19, 2012 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #853072
Is that question still alive? In my eyes, the second I see a person wearing anything resembling blue (because that’s what it is, nothing more and nothing less) tzitzis, I know they’re not serious (ie, not to be taken seriously for pretty much anything).
It’s all part of the tzionistische craziness – which, luckily, the frum world doesn’t believe in.February 19, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #853073ToiParticipant
its the brisker ravs pshat in the gra. im following my rabbeim. bite me.February 19, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #853074
1 ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????
2- It is shayich to be yotzei both by tying all three shitas in the same beged and make a tnai the real one is tzitzis and the other is a kishut balma. see bais yosef end of siman 12.
3-see radzhiner sefer that in a case wear there is a machlokes with a kula and chumra on each side we say ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? see the ramban and rashba in chulin 43b
4- I think there is a clear hachraah from the gra like shitas haraavad. I can’t be maarich now so see Kuntress Chosem shel zahav on page 49 http://www.tchelet-net.022.co.il/BRPortalStorage/a/31/86/54-EnqP9QK36s.pdf
I will not be able to reply from now on as I am going back to yeshiva tonight. I should be back purim time. I will look back here and answer any taanos that come up.February 20, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #853075beastParticipant
WOW! Chacham knows his stuff!! I’m really impressed.February 20, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #853076besalelParticipant
Gatesheader: you do realize that most observant Jews are not anti-zionist right? I mean there’s much you can complain about with the zionists but most frum Jews have rejected the satmar approach (even though we completely respect the non-zionists and their view of the halacha).February 20, 2012 8:56 am at 8:56 am #853077
@besalel: sure, however, the point is, the ‘blue tzitzis’ simply go along with a hashkafah that is not ours (ie not that of any chareidi). It goes along with the knitted kippah and the automatic rifle and living in Kiryat Arba.
Fact is none of our gedolim wear it. Name me 1 current chareidi rav who wears it. (And ‘chareidi’ does not include Yaakov Yosef, Dov Lior or Adin Steinsaltz.) I’m talking the likes of serious Chassidishe, Litvishe or Mizrachi leaders.February 20, 2012 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #853078besalelParticipant
i suppose youre right in that these things ended up getting bunched together, however, a mitzvah is a mitzvah. im not going to give up the possibility of doing a mitzvah simply because it became associated with a certain hashkufu.
as for gedolim who wear techeiles, i hear your argument and completely understand why someone would be completely in the black if he chose to follow this path. i, however, am more convinced by the arguments presented from the text (as related by chacham) which suggest that maybe i can be zoiche to be yoytzey a special mitzveh that no one in family has fulfilled in hundreds and hundreds of years. wheres the harm in trying?February 20, 2012 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #853079February 20, 2012 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #853080twistedParticipant
You could theoretically be yotze the string count sofek with a talis shekula techeles, then you could have all the strings techels, but be out a pretty penny.February 21, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #853081
Chacham: I hold my own, but I agree that if the Gra was machria one can follow the Gra. twisted: the halacha is that for a beged shekulo tcheiles you need two types of strings. As for having all strings tcheiles you can do that on a beged lavan also.February 21, 2012 3:05 am at 3:05 am #853083bochur1818Participant
@beast: learn about the topic and discuss it with others in the area. make an educated disission and please don’t be influence by political motives. In my eyes it’s so silly for political issues to stop one from fulfilling a mitzvah d’oraiysa
@ShlomoZalmanMeir: There are infact gedolim that do where techeilles, however, not many of them. Keep in mind that there are many factors that are involved in a gadol’s decision. (economics, political, etc.) Something which is a safek, gedolim may not be so quick to jump on right away. There is a story Rav Shachter tells over that a Rav from Farakway went to go ask Rav Elyashiv about techeilles. Rav Elyashiv said that he holds like the printed version of the Beis Halevi’s letter (inside the Radzyner Rebbe’s sefer). Given that and given all of the scientifc proof for the murex trunculus he asked Rav Elyashiv what to do about this Techeilles. Supposedly Rav Elyashiv’s response was “That’s a good question, I need to think about it.”
@besalel: why are there no halachic tools available to assist poskim about this decision? There are many meforshim who write that scientific knowledge is indeed a reason to reinstitute a mitzvah, implying that we should wear the murex trunculus techeilles. Furthermore, why would kabbalistic beliefs overpower halacha, especially those on a d’oraiysa level!? Lastly, depending on how you learn the sugya halacha can indeed obligate us to wear it. Rav Shachter says that the whole shaiyla is “are you mechuyav to spend money on it.” It doesn’t hurt (says gemara in menachos) so why not wear it? There is such a high percentage of a chance that we could fulfill a mitzvah d’oraiysa!
@sam4321: if everyone agrees to wear it there won’t be any “lo sisgodidu” anymore. However, because not everyone wears it, that’s why most people that do wear it don’t wear it explicitly for everyone to see. It’s something that’s done more betzinah.
@YehudahTzvi: I have heard that there are those close to Rav Sheinberg who say that he does indeed wear it.
@Sam2: are you sure rav shachter said that? can you please directly me to that mekor?
@Sam4321: CORRECTION – i believe what you said, “According to the Bais Halevi one needs a postive mesora which we lost.” It depends what version you hold by of the letter – the printed version in the Radzyner Rebbe’s sefer or the oral tradition by the Soloveitchik family. Supposedly Rav Elyashiv was asked what version he holds by and the response was: “oral tradition doesn’t make sense.”
“And with the help God it has come to my hands to extract, from the blood of the cuttlefish which is] black as ink, the color tekhelet in a manner which nothing affects the color other than the blood of the hillazon; and the chemical additives are colorless and only work to extract the color from the blood” (Sifrei HaTekhelet, Ptil Tekhelet, p.168).
@ mms601: If chus v’shalom there were extenuating cirmustances and people weren’t able to keep shabbos for whatever reason for a long period of time. Does that mean that when the bad times ended they shouldn’t keep shabbos anymore? ?
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