The Anti-Vaxxers are Causing a Chillul Hashem

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  • #1631998

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1632054

    Joseph
    Participant

    For people who are sincerely against vaccinating:

    Would you be happy if, like yourself, EVERYONE chose not to vaccinate?

    #1632286

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    From the Weekly Standard

    Anti-Vaxxers Are Hurting Religious Freedom Now

    A hundred years ago, the Spanish flu killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million people. Consider that World War I, which immediately preceded the pandemic, had just taken a toll of another 16 million lives. But aside from some supportive therapy of rest and hydration, there was scant little to do to treat and stem the tide of this rapidly spreading infection.

    Today, with a simple jab of a needle, we have the ability to possibly prevent the flu. Historically speaking, that’s a phenomenal achievement. True, the vaccine isn’t 100 percent effective. Sometimes it is not even not even 50 percent effective. But imagine what a parent in 1919 would have given to be able to give their child even an additional 10 percent chance of survival.

    The vaccine revolution is one of our greatest scientific and medical achievements. We are now able to prevent death and diseases that plagued humanity for centuries without mercy. And yet today, we are witnessing our society become victims of our success. With so many of these diseases virtually—but not completely—eradicated, a small minority seems to think that vaccines harm more than they help.

    Let’s be clear: The anti-vaxxer view is complete nonsense. Hundreds of studies from all over the world have established the safety profile of vaccines. There is absolutely no link to autism, despite how many times this myth is repeated. Vaccines don’t stunt growth or cause food allergies. Every professional medical association on the planet testifies to their safety and advocates for their usage. And now in addition to the health risks created by anti-vaxxers, they’re creating a public policy risk, too.

    Many vaccines are most effective when administered early in life and it’s one of the reasons school districts require them as a condition of admission.

    Anti-vaxxers want out of these requirements, but they are hard to come by. Exemptions exist for children who, for valid medical reasons, can’t be vaccinated. But “I read bad stuff on the internet” isn’t a valid medical reason. And so some anti-vaxxers are now trying to shield themselves behind “religious exemptions” to vaccinations.

    The idea behind religious exemptions is that while we as a society advocate, encourage, and support vaccination, we value individual liberty even more. Practically speaking, it means that if your particular religion opposes vaccination—meaning that getting a vaccine would violate the tenets of your faith—then society will not force them upon you, and still allow your children to enter the public schools. The (entirely sensible) reason for the religious exception is that religious freedom occupies a special place in American law and political philosophy. It is right that it should exist.

    The problem is that this “religious exemption” waiver is being used as a catch-all excuse for people whose objections to vaccination are based on medical illiteracy, not religious conviction.

    Obtaining a religious exemption can be easier than you might expect. In many places, parents simply declare in front of the board of education (or health) that immunization requirements violate their religious sensibilities. As public institutions, these boards cannot, do not, and should not make any determination as to the religious content of the parents’ declaration. They therefore grant the exemption to nearly anybody who asks for one.

    At least that’s how it is in the public schools. It’s different for parochial and religious schools.

    When parents submit a “religious exemption” they are stating that their religion prohibits vaccinations and it’s precisely on religious tolerance grounds that the exemption was granted. So for example, you get Jewish parents enrolling their kids in a yeshivah together with their “religious exemption.”

    The problem is that Judaism doesn’t actually oppose vaccinations. But unlike public institutions, yeshivas, Catholic schools, and madrassas, are free to—and should—define the terms and boundaries of the religious instruction they provide.

    Modern day Jewish law is complicated. Unlike Catholicism, there is no centralized body determining normative practice. Instead, there is a generally accepted hierarchy of rabbinic decisors, but ultimately, each rabbi is left to navigate these challenges in forging a path forward while embracing and being subject to a rich rabbinic tradition. But even within all of that diversity, the vast overwhelming consensus of rabbinic opinion is that Jewish religious law not only permits, but actually demands and requires vaccinations. And while a fringe minority opinion argues that vaccinations aren’t a religious obligation, there is absolutely no rabbinic opinion arguing that they are forbidden.

    Meaning, that while we can argue about whether or not you have to, nobody says that you aren’t allowed to.

    So when a parent submits a “religious exemption” to a Jewish school, they are effectively stating that they aren’t practicing Judaism, but some other flavor of belief that they concocted on their own.

    This isn’t a particularly Jewish problem. It’s happening in Catholic schools, too. (There are virtually no organized religions that prohibit vaccinations.)

    There is, of course, a problem: The governmental agencies that provide for religious exemptions are not able to, and frankly, shouldn’t be in the business of determining what constitutes an “authentic” religious belief. Religious and parochial schools though, do and should have an opinion about the religion that they are teaching. A yeshivah or Catholic school has a right to define guidelines and parameters of accepted Jewish beliefs and practices necessary for admission.

    It’s therefore not only within the yeshivah’s right to reject such a student, it must do so to maintain the integrity of their Tradition, fealty to Jewish law, and responsibility to the rest of the student body.

    It’s true, that this is only a band-aid for a small percentage of our country’s schools. It doesn’t address the broader problem nor broach the larger issue of balancing religious tolerance and public health. But it’s a start.

    Anti-vaxxers will argue that unvaccinated children don’t immediate risks—but only theoretical, epidemiological risks. But think about it this way: If a child brought a gun to school that was loaded only with blanks, that gun would pose no risk to others. But you can’t let every child bring a gun to school because, eventually, one of them won’t be loaded with blanks. It will have real bullets. And the only way for most of us to distinguish between blanks and actual bullets is after we’ve been hit.

    But there’s another risk here, too. By willfully conflating political opinions with religious beliefs, anti-vaxxers who seek religious exemptions are weakening everyone else’s religious freedom protections. This lunacy puts both our civic health and our physical health at risk. And it ought not to be condoned.

    #1632350

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I think at some point we will have to rethink how we approach the anti-medicine community. Obviously logic doesn’t work. Announcements and psak halacha from chachomim doesn’t work. Debate doesn’t work. Ridicule doesn’t work. Attacks don’t work. Having their children literally get sick and (C”V) potentially die doesn’t work.

    I’m all out of ideas, thoughts?

    #1632354

    kavod Habriot
    Participant

    Besides the health risks of vaccination, it is important to discuss the issue of corporate and federal fraud by the vaccine companies. As a parent, if a company is being sued for fraud regarding their product, why in the world would I want to give that product to my children? Merck is currently being sued for fraud for withholding data about the effectiveness of their mumps vaccine. GlaxoSmithKline recently paid $3 billion dollars in a fraud settlement case. Not to mention the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is the biggest defrauder in history under the False Claims Act. Yet, legislation continues to be put in place to protect these corporations and not the population. As a mother it is my right to protect my children from these criminals. Research before you vaccinate your helpless child. Dont let anyone scare you! Vaccination is medication! Why are you medicating your healthy child. Does the One Above not know what hes doing? C”V. Does he send down imperfect babies to the world that we have to mess around with them & drug them up right away…Please be careful before you pump the bloodstream of your loved ones with garbage.

    #1632378

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Please don’t copy and paste that post to every thread.

    #1632377

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As a parent, if a company is being sued for fraud regarding their product, why in the world would I want to give that product to my children?

    Because you are halachically obligated to. You should want to, also, because it can prevent terrible diseases.

    Does he send down imperfect babies to the world

    Absolutely. Boys need bris milah.

    As ubiquitin pointed out, a perfect baby would be self nourishing and wouldn’t need to eat. So yes, absolutely, He expects us to do certain things.

    One of them is vaccinating.

    #1632390

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m all out of ideas, thoughts?

    I agree, we’ll never convince the hard core anti-vaxxers.

    We might be able to influence some people on the fence.

    Even those we can’t convince might end up vaccinating their kids (as many have) simply because they need to in order to have them accepted into yeshiva/BY.

    #1632423

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It amazes me there are Asifas, Kol Koreah, TAG etc on smartphones, but none of this on Vaccines. No you cannot convience everyone to vaccinate, but having such events makes it clear that opposition is not tolerated

    #1632420

    interjection
    Participant

    “We might be able to influence some people on the fence.”

    I agree. I think that the vocal anti-vaxxers will never change their mind. However, I’m assuming there are many silent readers who read these threads and every time an anti-vaxxer says something passionately, they assume it must be credible. Then when it is refuted, they see that the anti-vaxxer’s claims were inaccurate. Three years ago, I was that person. I would see hear comments from friends and read about it and I was unsure what to think. That was what inspired me to start researching on my own.

    #1632441

    kavod Habriot
    Participant

    As a parent it should be my decision and my decision only whether or not I am willing to take the risks with the bodies of my children. After all, I brought them into the world and I am responsible for their wellbeing. If a vaccine permanently damages my children I am responsible for taking care of them for the rest of their life, and therefore it should be my choice and not a State mandate! My decision to protect my children from the harm of vaccination should not be a determining factor of my child’s ability to attend school with other kids. Healthy children who are not infected with disease should not be discriminated against. The companies that produce these vaccines are criminal, and I do not trust them with my children’s health. Mandating and forcing the public to participate in vaccination violates some of the core rights we have as human beings. It violates the Constitution of the United States. Therefore, it is imperative that we protect personal choice and stop mandatory vaccination. Be strong & fight to preserve our liberty and please think twice about whether or not to vaccinate your children: both the science and our history has shown that we do not require vaccines for a healthy society and if there is risk, there most certainly must be choice. Dont let ANYONE bully or abuse you. Its your child!

    #1632663

    Health
    Participant

    kavod Habriot -“As a parent it should be my decision and my decision only whether or not I am willing to take the risks with the bodies of my children. After all, I brought them into the world and I am responsible for their wellbeing. If a vaccine permanently damages my children I am responsible for taking care of them for the rest of their life, and therefore it should be my choice and not a State mandate!”

    You can have that choice when you live in a forest or when you move to Guatamala.
    Unfortunely when you live amongst others – they also have rights.
    These rights include not getting near unvaxxed people. This includes schools, Shuls, etc.
    You can not expose them to diseases, No matter what your beliefs are!

    #1633494

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Agreed. My child was vaccinated and causes kiddush Hashem wherever she goes.

    #1635645

    akuperma
    Participant

    The vast majoriity of anti-vaxxers are goyim. No rabbanim are poskening against vaccines. While one can argue that otherwise frum Jews not following halacha is a “chillul Ha-Shem”, that would apply in many situations (e.g. use and abuse of the internet, which is where these anti-vaxxers appear to be getting their information from).

    #1635639

    truthishidden
    Participant

    Per the CDC website:
    As of November 3, 2018, 220 individual cases of measles have been confirmed in 26 states and the District of Columbia.
    The number of US reported cases in 2018 is similar to recent years and is in the expected range.

    Why all the hype?

    #1635706

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    kavod Habrit,
    If your Rav told you that your are obligated to vaccine your children, would you do it? If not, are you a servant of HaShem or yourself? If yes, ask your Rav this question?

    #1635720

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Akuperma, read what R’ Moshe Sternbuch wrote.

    Measles is specifically spreading in frum communities, causing people to ch”v say the Torah doesn’t care about pikuach nefesh.

    #1635715

    The little I know
    Participant

    Truth:

    You missed the point completely. Firstly, the population involved is affected in much bigger statistics. Your approach would minimize the terror attack of 9/11, that only 3000 people died, which could have happened worldwide in a single day. That’s quite foolish. We are observing a community that has an anomalous spread of a contagious disease, with potentially serious consequences. Additionally, there is a myth that not vaccinating is a “religious exemption”. This is not accurate or true. One may choose to not vaccinate because of one’s beliefs about the benefit risk ratio, or the conspiracy theories about the CDC and big pharm lying, etc. But the lie that there is a religious exemption is intolerable. In fact, and poskim are unanimous about the chiyuv to inoculate kids. Perhaps force cannot be used. But to allow this obsession to put others at risk is completely unacceptable, and the poskim spelled that out. So what does religion say about this?

    #1635723

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Truthishidden:

    Per the CDC website:

    Suddenly you believe the CDC?

    I haven’t seen the numbers, but even if true, that means the outbreaks in previous years has been in other communities. This year, it’s in frum communities, so certainly more of interest to those who participate in discussions here.

    Why all the hype?

    Because people are dying or having permanent brain damage (due to the selfishness and obstinacy of the anti-vaxxers).

    And kids are being left out of school because of their parents’ stupidity, selfishness, and obstinacy

    #1635860

    doomsday
    Participant

    Poilke: keep in mind that calls of restricting a parent’s right to make medical decisions for their child can lead us all down a slippery slope. Once the precedent is set, what is to keep the government from deciding if metzitza bepeh or Milah in general endangers a child or deciding R”L that the state can pull a plug or force treatments on a child that can render him or her sterile?
    Yasher Koach Poilke! I was going to make that point, but you beat me to it!
    Provaxxers: If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah! That is exactly how the Soviet Union did it and US Socialists are copying the Marxist Handbook on how to Strip away ALL Rights from the Citizens!
    The Government can also decide that the Torah is full of “Hate” “Homophobic” “Racist” “Sexist” and it is not in “the best interest of the child” to allow children to learn Torah! That is how the Soviets did it and if you Provaxxers will not stand up for the right of Medical Freedom, You will cause Torah to be outlawed, Ch”V!

    In the UK, The Socialist Government recently decided it was in the “best interest” of two babies to be starved to death! (Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans) And they would not allow the Parents to to leave the country with their children to get Medical Care elsewhere – even at their own expense. Do you want to bring that Tyranny to USA? Because taking away Medical Freedom is all about establishing that Citizens of the Country have No Rights, Period. It is the Government who knows better then us and can FORCE us to do anything “for our own good”.
    The Government will start murdering the sick, the handicapped and the elderly – just like the Nazis who started out with “euthanizing” those who were “suffering” – and we know where that led!

    Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. If They Lose THEIR Religious Rights,
    then We Lose OUR Religious Rights!

    #1635900

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Doomsday, the slippery slope argument? Really?

    #1635899

    The little I know
    Participant

    Doom:

    Get some help, please. Your departure from reality is significant, and it is problematic.

    You wrote: “Provaxxers: If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah! ”

    Nonsense, and you know that. There is a huge difference between “medical rights” and public health. Eradicating contagious diseases is a public health issue. So is safe and clean water. Government has a responsibility here. You can get picky with the details, but don’t confuse them. The government is NOT looking to interfere with “medical rights”.

    You wrote: “if you Provaxxers will not stand up for the right of Medical Freedom, You will cause Torah to be outlawed, Ch”V!” That remark is silly and pediatric. You know the response to that.

    You wrote: “Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. If They Lose THEIR Religious Rights, then We Lose OUR Religious Rights!”

    More nonsense. As noted in an earlier comment, there is NO religious objection to vaccination. The garbage about Bitachon is a serious shaming of one of our precious midos. You embarrass yourself with such stupidity. Poskim all paskened about the obligation to vaccinate. If you choose not to, you are exercising your MEDICAL rights, not your RELIGIOUS rights. Stop confusing the issues. That’s intellectually dishonest.

    Our generation has witnessed many things being cast as “religious”, with the intent on it being given respect and the protection from challenge. Many issues that land in that category are imported from other realms, and are truly NOT religious at all. Having a sensitivity to something and a proclivity for or against it might be an emotional issue, but that does not translate into religion.

    Doom: Please show me where Torah says to not vaccinate.

    #1635911

    akuperma
    Participant

    DaasYachid: This is a problem, but not a Jewish problem. The anti-vaccine movement is broader throughout society, and is not specificially a “Jewish” issue. No one perceives this as a “Jewish” matter, except perhaps us. No one is claiming that there is an anti-vaccine Jewish perspective, and Jews are probably less likely than goyim to be avoiding vaccines.

    Of course it is a matter that affects us, and of course it has historically been the responsibility of the rabbanim to provide leadership. But it isn’t really a matter of “hillul ha-Shem” any more than people catching any other disease is a matter of “hillul ha-Shem”.

    #1635912

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday
    “Provaxxers: If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah!

    do yo ubeleive the government should be allowed to force parents to provide antibiotics to a child wit ha treatable infection, that would otherwise be fatal?
    What about food, do you believe the government should be allowed to force parents to provide food to their children

    “Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS.”
    Are these religious grounds Jewish ones? If so can you provide any sources
    (note i’m not asking if religious Jews object t vaccinations on boich sevara grounds, please don’t confuse the two)

    #1635915

    doomsday
    Participant

    Re Bris Milah: What if GOvernment declares Bris Milah to be Child Abuse? There is already a campaign against Bris Milah (and Shechitah on grounds of cruelty to animals).

    Re: Outlawing teaching Torah – The Democrat Socialists are already persecuting Christians who refuse to service Homosexual Businesses. In England if Yeshivas don’t teach Evolution and To’eiva they are threatened to be shut down. You are Naive if you don’t see that this Violating of Religious Rights is not already happening in USA.

    Re: Religious Exemption – there are christians who claim religious exemptions – perhaps because aborted babies are used in the manufacture. And the Torah tells us “Ushmartem es Nafshechem”. Those who
    did hours of Research and know the dangers of vaccines have an obligation to protect their children.
    And there are Gedolim who agree.

    As for Danger to Public Health, per the Vaccine Inserts, the Newly Vaccinated may shed the disease for up to
    six weeks and should avoid the immunocompromised.
    The John Hopkins Patient Guide warns immuno-compromised to avoid Newly Vaccinated children but it
    does not say to avoid the Unvaccinated.
    Why doesn’t the Government demand that schools/daycare ban the Newly Vaccinated when it is a fact that
    they can spread diseases?
    The Government does NOT care about the Public Health (they want open borders to let in 3rd Worlders with their 3rd Word Disease). The Government wants the POWER to be able to Force Us to do WHATEVER they
    order. “For our own good” of course!

    Even if you are 1,000% for Vaccines, if you care about Parental Rights, Religious RIghts and Freedom,
    you should support Medical Freedom – The Right of People not be subjected to Medical “treatment” against their will. This is violation of Constitution, Nuremberg Laws and Geneva Convention – and is opening the door for Government to take away ALL rights “because Government knows what is best for the Peasants”.

    #1635927

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiten: do yo ubeleive the government should be allowed to force parents to provide antibiotics to a child wit ha treatable infection, that would otherwise be fatal?
    What about food, do you believe the government should be allowed to force parents to provide food to their children?
    Yes, I believe the government has the right to protect children from IMMINENT Danger of Death or
    Permanent Danger. That is the Law we have today. Nobody can say that an Unvaccinated Child is in
    any immediate Danger. There have been studies comparing Vaccinated Children to Unvaccinated Children and the Unvaccinated are Far Healthier – Far Less Autism, Allergies, Asthma, Ear Infections, ADHD, Speech Delay, etc.

    Since CDC TRIPLED the Vaccine Schedule around 1990 we have SICKEST Children in History of USA:
    1:6 children are learning disabled
    1:6 children are allergic
    1:13 children have asthma
    1:15 children have ADHD
    1:5 teens had episode of mental illness
    1:8 children have IBS
    1:59 children have autism
    1:100 children have epilepsy
    1:250 children have tourettes syndrome
    1:400 children have diabetes
    1:775 babies die of SIDS
    1:1,000 children have Celiac Disease
    1:5,560 children have CANCER
    168 Deaths following vaccines reported to VAERS every year. ZERO deaths from Measles (in USA).

    #1635936

    Vaccinator
    Participant

    Being sued means nothing. Anyone can sue anybody at anytime for anything. And people usually sue companies because they have money. Most lawsuits never get to court. To imply that there’s fraud because a company gets sued for fraud shows that you know nothing about the legal system.

    #1635938

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just please tell me what “RELIGIOUS” right you have to not to vaccinate, What Psak do you have and from who?

    #1635939

    Vaccinator
    Participant

    Kavod habriot: don’t be an idiot! No, you don’t have the right to decide what you do with the bodies of your children. They are human beings, not property. You can’t decide to throw them off the roof. You can’t decide not to use seat belts. And you can’t decide not to protect them against dangerous diseases.

    #1635961

    Vaccinator
    Participant

    Doomsday: you NEVER did the assignment I gave you. YOU NEED TO LOOK UP SPURIOUS CORRELATUON! It it IDIOTIC to attribute the things you mention to vaccines! IDIOTIC! Lots of stuff has changed during that time! Correlation is not causality! Go learn 5the grade science! And thank you for pointing out the zero deaths from measles because you have proven the great success due entirely to vaccination. Thank you for admitting it!

    #1635973

    Vaccinator
    Participant

    And although you don’t care about the rest of the world, in 2017 (just last year) there were 110,000 deaths worldwide from measles. Measles is a DEADLY disease!!

    #1635974

    2scents
    Participant

    Religious reasons for not vaccinating when the Gedolim have come out in WRITING advising that we should vaccinate seems a bit absurd unless the religious reason is not Judaism.

    #1635975

    akuperma
    Participant

    If you are an Israeli citizen of draftable age, and you drop out of yeshiva, you have very few options other than to go into the army. It doesn’t take much “joining.” The decision to leave yeshiva learning for a young male of that age is, unless the man is seriously handicapped, a decision to enter the military. What other option would there be?

    #1635980

    doomsday
    Participant

    Vaccinator:It it IDIOTIC to attribute the things you mention to vaccines! Correlation is Not Causality
    Folks, For DECADES the Tobacco Industry screamed it is Idiotic to say that Smoking Caused Cancer!
    The Tobacco Industry Hired Scientists to chant Correlation is Not Causality
    But it was a SMOKER vs NON-SMOKER Study that PROVED the Tobacco Industry was Lying!
    and that Smoking DOES Cause Cancer! And Heart Disease! And Stroke! And Emphasyma!
    The Vaccine Industry is doing an exact copy of what the Tobacco Industry did –
    And we know the Tobacco Industry LIED! and had to pay out Billions $$$ in Law Suits.

    Why does the CDC refuse to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? It WOULD Prove once and for all
    if Vaccines cause Autism (and ADHD, Allergies, Asthma, DIabetes…) or NOT! Just Like the
    Smoker vs Non-Smoker study proved Conclusively that Smoking causes Cancer.
    And that is why CDC is refusing to do the study. CDC knows Vaccines do More Harm then good!

    #1635982

    doomsday
    Participant

    Vaccinator: No, you don’t have the right to decide what you do with the bodies of your children.

    Vaccinator, who does get to make medical decisions for our children? The Parents or The Government?

    #1635983

    Meno
    Participant

    Doomsday,

    do yo ubeleive the government should be allowed to force parents to provide antibiotics to a child wit ha treatable infection, that would otherwise be fatal?
    What about food, do you believe the government should be allowed to force parents to provide food to their children?

    I’m not ubiquitin, but I’ll answer your questions anyway:

    Yes, you moron.

    #1635996

    000646
    Participant

    Doomsday,

    Ever since early 90’s when NASA put The Hubble Space Telescope into orbit around the earth we have seen an increase in Sids and Autism. Giant mirrors in space around our planet cause Autism!! Don’t believe the evil people at NASA who say otherwise! Do you know how much money NASA gets a year???????

    The World Wide Web was debuted publicly as an internet in the early 90s. Ever since then we have seen all the issues you mention! The internet Causes Autism and Sids and all that other stuff!

    Ever since the United States ended its alliance with Saddam’s Iraq in the early 90’s we have seen an increase in Autism and Sids. It’s obvious that fighting with Saddam caused us to be hit with higher rates of Sids and Autism!

    You see how this works? Correlation in of itself does not prove causation.

    #1636006

    The little I know
    Participant

    Doom:

    You wrote: “Why does the CDC refuse to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? It WOULD Prove once and for all – if Vaccines cause Autism (and ADHD, Allergies, Asthma, DIabetes…) or NOT! Just Like the
    Smoker vs Non-Smoker study proved Conclusively that Smoking causes Cancer.
    And that is why CDC is refusing to do the study. CDC knows Vaccines do More Harm then good!”

    For the most part, CDC does not conduct the research. There are quite a few research centers around the country and the world, and studies have been done. There is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism. The only supportive research was debunked as fabricated. Numerous attempts to replicate found zero correlation. the reason CDC won’t push for additional research is because it was already done.

    Tobacco is little proof of anything. The government was not regulating tobacco at all. The industry did have studies that they withheld from the public. This did not involve government. Sorry, good try. No parallel.

    Your desperation to prove fiction is not working. Frankly, this is getting boring. Watching paint dry is about as exciting.

    #1636025

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If, chas v’shalom, people with eczema were to have a much higher suicide rate, eczema rates would drop. One would then be able to say that in communities where people with skin conditions are bullied and tortured, the rates of those conditions go down.

    #1636042

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday,
    “Yes, I believe the government has the right to protect children from IMMINENT Danger of Death or
    Permanent Danger”

    Ahhhh!!!! Bris milah! run for the hills the government is controlling health decisions we all know that means bris milah is next!!!!!!

    “Since CDC TRIPLED the Vaccine Schedule around 1990 we have SICKEST Children in History of USA:”

    OVer the same time period. The number of anti-vaxxers (pro-diseasers) have skyrocketed as well!

    I jut proved that the mere existence of anti-vaxxers leads to Asthma, autism, ADHd, mental illness, diabetes, SIDS

    you ask :
    ” who does get to make medical decisions for our children? The Parents or The Government?”

    when there are two sides to the issue then parents. IF their are no two sides then the government.

    “Why does the CDC refuse to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? It WOULD Prove once and for all”
    1) It would be unethical to deprive children of life saving vaccines
    2) It would change approximately zero minds (+/- a mind or 2) I have had many conversations with you pro-diseasers it goes something like this (you can dig up old ywn threads)

    pro-diseaser “Provide one study showing vaccines don’t cause Autism”
    Me: “Ok here is one…”
    Pro-diseaser ” no one with over 10,000 people”
    me: “Ok here is one with over 10,000 people…”
    Pro diseaser “no, one that isnt funded by big pharma”
    me “ok, here is a study with over 10,000 people thats isnt funded by big pharma”
    pr-diseaser ” no one that isnt funded by the govt”
    “ok here is one with 10,000 people that isnt funded by the government nor big pharma”
    pro-diseaser: “no that was published in a medical journal and journals are funed by big pharma, so find one that wasnt published ina medical journal”

    #1636131

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: ” who does get to make medical decisions for our children? The Parents or The Government?”
    when there are two sides to the issue then parents. IF their are no two sides then the government.

    Remember Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans from the UK? The UK Government decided “it was in the best interest” of these babies TO BE MURDERED! They refused to allow the Peasants, I mean PARENTS, to take THEIR baby to another country for treatment – at their own expense! The UK ignored the International Outcry and STARVED these Babies to death!

    In another case, 5 year old Ayasha King had cancer. After One Round of Chemo, he went into remission. When the Cancer returned, UK Doctors refused further treatment and told Parents that Ayasha Must DIE!
    Parents requested a New Treatment called Proton Beam Therapy. UK didn’t have it AND REFUSED to allow the Peasants, I mean Parents to take THEIR Child to another country for treatment – at their own expense.
    The Kings “kidnapped” THEIR child and got 5 year old Ayasha Proton Beam Therapy in Spain. AYASHA IS NOW CURED! The UK had Ayasha’s Parents ARRESTED for daring to SAVE THEIR CHILD’s Life – against the
    Governments Orders!

    1. Ubiquiton, was the government right in refusing to allow the Gards, the Evans and the Kings
    to make Medical Decisions for THEIR child at their own expense? Were there “No two sides” in these
    situations?

    #1636135

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: “Since CDC TRIPLED the Vaccine Schedule around 1990 we have SICKEST Children in History of USA:”
    OVer the same time period. The number of anti-vaxxers (pro-diseasers) have skyrocketed as well!
    I jut proved that the mere existence of anti-vaxxers leads to Asthma, autism, ADHd, mental illness, diabetes, SIDS

    Yes. When after the CDC TRIPLED the Vaccine Schedule and the rate of autism when from 1:10,000 to 1:50, and Cancer, Diabetes and many other diseases skyrocketed, the number of Anti-Vaxxers skyrocketed as well.
    Because we are not so stupid as to ignore what is happening right in front of our eyes. And we spent hours doing research, listening to Doctor Whistle Blowers, and uncovering CDC fraud.

    Throughout history the MAJORITY of People have been Sheep who will Blindly obey Authority.
    And the truly intelligent people are in the Minority – that is why the government can defeat them – with
    the support of the brainwashed sheep!

    #1636160

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Doomsday, what would you say in the opposite case, where parents seek for their children to be removed from life support?

    #1636164

    doomsday
    Participant

    The only study I heard Anti-Vaxxers ask for is a RETROSPECTIVE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study.
    Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.
    There are no ethical issues with a RETROSPECTIVE study, so why does the CDC refuse?
    Because it would reveal that the CDC LIED – that vaccines DO cause Autism and many other sicknesses.
    There already have been several Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed studies and they show that Unvaccinated Children
    are Far Healthier with much less Autism, Allergies, Asthma, Ear Infections, ADHD etc.

    #1636236

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: Ahhhh!!!! Bris milah! run for the hills the government is controlling health decisions we all know that means bris milah is next!!!!!!

    Riiiiight. It’s CRAZY to think a Control Freak Government would ban Bris Milah.
    Because that’s NEVER EVER happened, right Ubiquiton? And the Democrat Socialists are Sooo respectful of
    Religious Rights – they didn’t persecute Christians who refused to service a Homosexual Wedding, Right?

    #1636250

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquitin: “Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS.”
    Are these religious grounds Jewish ones?

    Are you asking why should Orthodox Jews care if the Government violates the Religious Rights of others?
    Because if they don’t have Religious Rights, WE don’t have Religious Rights!

    #1636305

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If true, it is explained by natural selection.

    #1636360

    doomsday
    Participant

    Provaxxers, does it concern you at all that Mandatory Vaccinations are a violation of
    the Geneva Convention and Nuremberg Laws?

    #1636429

    2scents
    Participant

    Doom,

    “The only study I heard Anti-Vaxxers ask for is a RETROSPECTIVE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study.
    Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.”

    A. There have been numerous studies, I myself have provided a few on the other thread, not sure why you fail to appreciate responses that are directed at your posts, (I guess because all you can do is just copy paste from some silly radical site). If you would actually care about facts, you would not just repeat the same questions time after time.

    B. Please provide the source of these requests made by Congress to the CDC?

    Is doom a bot that just posts what it was programmed to post without even acknowledging appropriate responses?

    #1636446

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday

    “Remember Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans from the UK? ”
    Yes. Quite well. Do you remember how they then banned bris milah?

    “The UK Government decided “it was in the best interest” of these babies TO BE MURDERED! ”
    I dont remember that part.

    “They refused to allow the Peasants, I mean PARENTS, to take THEIR baby to another country for treatment – at their own expense! ”
    So, its more complicated than that. and who is paying is not the be all end all of deciding whether a treatment is appropriate or not. At any rate there was no treatment available nor one that was being offered. There was a Dr at Columbia who initially said he would try but he later said that it was futile.
    I dont really want to get to lost especially, since I’m not sure I agree with the government’s decision so I’m not really going to defend it.
    however you seem a bit confused.
    You are saying that
    forcing vaccinations will lead to murdering children and banning bris milah.
    You proof to this is England, where they DONT have mandatory vaccinations yet they murder babies (in your view) and dont ban bris milah.
    I’m a bit lost.
    furthermore. Please please please tell me you don’t support the right to inject chemotherapeutic agents full of toxins and horrible horrible radiation into children. I certainly hope you don’t mean to suggest to support the evil oncologists and the nefarious pharmaceutical companies

    “Diabetes and many other diseases skyrocketed, the number of Anti-Vaxxers skyrocketed as well.”
    how dod you know that the existence of anti-vaxxers didnt lead to these increased diseases.?
    In fact. We proved they did cause the diseases. Since they both went up along a similar time frame that means one caused the other

    “There are no ethical issues with a RETROSPECTIVE study, so why does the CDC refuse?”

    I’m not sure what you mean. There are dozens of such studies .
    do y u need my help finding them? (There are prospective studies done to, but I’m not aware of any RCT’s)

    “Religious Rights – they didn’t persecute Christians who refused to service a Homosexual Wedding, Right?”
    Ok, this one you are going to have to walk me through slowly. Please help me see the link between vaccines and homosexual weddings.
    I have heard it said that vaccines cause homosexuality (with nice graphs showing the increase of both along the same trajectory, which in anti-vax land means one caused thee other) Is this your argument?

    “Are you asking why should Orthodox Jews care if the Government violates the Religious Rights of others?”
    no, i’m asking why are you pretending there are Jewish religous grounds to denying your children proper medical treatment

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