The Anti-Vaxxers are Causing a Chillul Hashem

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  • #1636453

    2scents
    Participant

    Doom,

    Your amazing, you have brought up the Geneva argument in the past, I responded to it, yet you make believe like no one said anything about it

    So now, explain why it is in violation

    #1636461

    doomsday
    Participant

    RebYid: Doomsday, what would you say in the opposite case, where parents seek for their children to be removed from life support?

    I am OK with Government being on the side of Protecting Life – but not with demanding Death.
    I am also OK with in situations where it is a question if the child is really living it is the Parent’s Decision.

    #1636468

    doomsday
    Participant

    There are Gedolim who recognize the Dangers of Vaccines and advise NOT to vaccinate, if asked.
    It goes under the Mitzvah of “uneshmartem es nafshoseichem” (guard your life).

    #1636515

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday
    “I am OK with Government being on the side of Protecting Life ”

    Lol, not always though since you are not ok with them being on the anti-measles side of this argument .

    “There are Gedolim who recognize the Dangers of Vaccines and advise NOT to vaccinate, if asked.”
    From a religious standpoint??
    can you name one?
    (and please spare us any silly they dont let us tell their names. If they cant stand beside a pesak that they believe is saving lives then they arent gedolim.)

    #1636560

    Vaccinator
    Participant

    Doomsday:
    Vaccinator: No, you don’t have the right to decide what you do with the bodies of your children.

    Vaccinator, who does get to make medical decisions for our children? The Parents or The Government?

    The answer is: The Torah, parents, and the government. It is most definitely NOT just the parents- as I said, you do NOT own your children. And we know that if parents are not being responsible in caring for their children, the children will be taken away. That is the responsibility of a society (ie, government). You can’t throw your children out the window even if in your warped mind you think that’s best for them. The Torah tells us we need to follow the majority and we need to take care of our bodies – and the Halacha gives great priority to doctors’ opinions. It is nearly unanimous among doctors that vaccinations are required (in spite of all your speculations about how many doctors feel “deep in their hearts but not willing to say it publicly” that they don’t believe in them). So, yes, in this case, those who know better than uninformed parents like your anti-vaxxers (and all your posts have shown that you are very very uninformed) are nearly unanimous in their opinion, yes, we are required to listen to them.
    And, in more direct response to your question (who gets to make the medical decisions for our children), if we are talking about parents like you, then government (or just about anyone else) is in a better position to make responsible, caring decisions for the children, rather than having you follow a personal agenda and philosophy that has nothing to do with caring about the children but rather simply fighting the establishment like the 1960s hippies. If you care about your children, you’ll get them vaccinated as soon as possible. You’ve lost the argument.

    #1636549

    The little I know
    Participant

    I am sure there are many who share my question. I want one name of a Gadol who advised against vaccinating. Just one. And I want verification that he indeed said it. I will absolutely reject the casual, dismissive statement that “Gedolim” support the anti-vax conspiracy. I request that other commenters here second this motion, and I await eagerly one, single verifiable posek who said NOT to vaccinate. Until that happens, it is silly to proceed with any debate here. The vaxxers have numerous gedolim whose names have been publicized. Now the anti-vaxxers need to stop with their logical proofs that are laughable, and provide one single name of a Gadol that is alive and well who can verify the anti-vax support.

    #1636579

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Shmuel Kaminetsly has said vaccinations are a scam in 2014 and in the alst few weeks his rebitzen has re-interated those comments

    #1636577

    Meno
    Participant

    Doomsday,

    I can’t help but notice how you keep mentioning that you’ve spent hours studying the facts, as if that’s a lot of time.

    #1636572

    Vaccinator
    Participant

    The Little I Know: EXCELLENT post and I second it. And though I have posted a lot myself, I think that, at this stage of the game you are right and there is no purpose to proceed until the verification you suggested occurs. Thanks for the voice of reason.

    #1636565

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Doomsday
    I have a a hypothetical question:

    Suppose a child is born who is protected from the harmful effects of vaccines. I dont know he was born wearing a tin-foil hat and all the experts, I mean ALL including Humphreys, Wakefield, Mccarthy, PEACH moms all of them agree that THIS child was immune from vaccine harm.

    furthermore he is at risk of having harm from measles, again I dont know because he has lungs or a brain.

    do you think parents should vaccinate this kid?
    Do you think the government should force/pressure them to do so?
    What about society, should we pressure them ?

    #1636604

    doomsday
    Participant

    I am just guessing here, but I think the gadol they are referring to is Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky, Shlitah.

    I did have my children vaccinated. When I first heard about anti-vaxxers I thought they were paranoid.
    But then I saw my nephew regress into autism after receiving 7 vaccines in one day.

    And I have been doing research for a couple of years now. And I learned about CDC corruption.
    And debating provaccers who lie further strengthens my position. Like ProVaxxers who go around
    lying there are NO studies linking vaccines to autism except for “Wakefield’s Fraudulent Study.”
    Regardless of whether or not you accept those studies it is an absolute LIE to say There aren’t any
    studies showing a link between Autism and Vaccines. And that’s just one example.

    #1636605

    doomsday
    Participant

    There is a Jewish Religious reason not to vaccinate. If a parent after many hours of research,
    knows that vaccines are very dangerous, the parent has an obligation to protect their child’s life.
    “Unishmarten es Nafshosechem”

    #1636613

    doomsday
    Participant

    Per the Constitution, ONLY Parents have the right to make decisions for their child
    unless that parent was found to be unfit after having a Trial and Jury.
    It is called “Due Process”.

    The Government is not allowed to force medical treatment on a child unless
    the child is in IMMINENT Danger of Death or Permanent Injury. That is our current Law.
    Not getting vaccinated does not put a child in “imminent danger”.
    There are Risks to vaccinating. There are Risks to NOT vaccinating.
    Therefore, it is the Parent’s decision.
    And the Parents have right to ask a Shayla of the Godol of THEIR choosing and follow his p’sak.

    #1636630

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    “Regress into autism” is really offensive language, bordering on hate speech.

    #1636701

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Doomsday

    “Per the Constitution, ONLY Parents have the right to make decisions for their child”

    I’m sorry, the constitution of what?
    (The US constitution doesn’t discuss parental rights, are you referring to something else?)

    Do you oppose laws requiring seatbelts for children? I hope not since it is against my religion , and of course Not wearing a seatbelt does not put a child in “imminent danger”.

    “I am just guessing here, but I think the gadol they are referring to is Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky, Shlitah.”

    Wait, what do you mean by “guessing” ? earlier yo u said ““There are Gedolim who recognize the Dangers of Vaccines and advise NOT to vaccinate, if asked.””
    where you just guessing then too?

    BTW, I discussed vaccines w/ R” Shmuel Shlita several years ago, and while he didn’t endorse or support vaccines he did not oppose them either. Did he change his mind?

    #1636772

    The little I know
    Participant

    Doom:

    Rav Shmuel shlit”a was not anti-vaccines. He was not an advocate for them but was not against them. He also consulted with Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a who concurred with him. And they addressed the issue of a school stopping unvaccinated kids from entering the school. This was not during an outbreak. Neither of these can be used the phantom “gedolim” that are against vaccinating.

    #1636794

    doomsday
    Participant

    The Little I Know: Rav Shmuel shlit”a was not anti-vaccines. He was not an advocate for them but was not against them. He also consulted with Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a who concurred with him. And they addressed the issue of a school stopping unvaccinated kids from entering the school.

    Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
    You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?

    #1636814

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: Do you oppose laws requiring seatbelts for children? I hope not since it is against my religion , and of course Not wearing a seatbelt does not put a child in “imminent danger”.

    You cannot compare vaccines to wearing seatbelts:
    1. Is there a world wide movement claiming seatbelts are dangerous to children?
    2. Are there thousands of parents reporting that seatbelts caused harm to their child?
    3. Are there thousands of parents demanding to “opt out” of the seatbelt laws?
    4. Are these over 150 studies linking seatbelts to injury?
    5. Do seatbelts contain known dangers like mercury or aluminum? or live viruses?

    #1636792

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: “Per the Constitution, ONLY Parents have the right to make decisions for their child”
    I’m sorry, the constitution of what?
    (The US constitution doesn’t discuss parental rights, are you referring to something else?)

    The Supreme Court recognizes Parental Rights as part of the 14th Amendment. And that a parent may
    not be deprived of his/her parental rights without Due Process (7th Amendment) and a Show of Unfitness.

    Below SCOTUS said even if a Parental Decision involves RISK the State may not interfere!!! See below!
    “Simply because the decision of a parent is not agreeable to a child or because it involves RISKS does not automatically transfer the power to make that decision from the parents to some agency or officer of the state”. US Supreme Court

    More SCOTUS rulings upholding “fundamental” Parental rights to CARE for their children. Care means
    to make DECISIONS for their children.
    A parent’s right to care and companionship of his or her children are so fundamental, as to be guaranteed protection under the First, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution. J.S. and C., 324 A 2d 90; supra 129 NJ Super, at 489.

    ” It is cardinal with us that the custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder. . . It is in recognition of this that these decisions have respected the private realm of family life which the state cannot enter.” US Supreme Court

    This ruling says the State cannot take away custody of children because of “best interest of the child” and MUST show Unfitness!
    “We have recognized on numerous occasions that the relationship between parent and child is constitutionally protected. We have little doubt that the Due Process Clause would be offended “if a State were to attempt to force the breakup of a natural family, over the objections of the parents, without some showing of unfitness and for the sole reason that to do so was thought to be in the children’s best interest.” US Supreme Court

    This SCOTUS ruling says PARENTS have a Fundamental Right to make DECISIONS for THEIR Children
    “The liberty interest at issue in this case-the interest of parents in the care, custody, and control of their children-is perhaps the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests recognized by this Court… In light of this extensive precedent, it cannot now be doubted that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF PARENTS TO MAKE DECISIONS concerning the care, custody, and control of their children.” US Supreme Court

    SCOTUS recognizes Constitutional Right of PERSONAL CHOICE regarding FAMILY Life!
    “This Court has long recognized that FREEDOM OF PERSONAL CHOICE in matters of marriage and FAMILY LIFE is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment”. US Supreme Court

    “The history and culture of Western civilization reflect a strong tradition of parental concern for the nurture and upbringing of their children. This primary role of the parents in the upbringing of their children is now established beyond debate as an enduring American tradition. US Supreme Court

    “Our decisions establish that the Constitution protects the sanctity of the family”
    US Supreme Court

    The Constitution DOES protect Parental Rights! Including the right to make Decisions for the child – even if those decisions involve some RISKS! Are you going to admit you were Wrong, Uniquitin?

    #1636870

    The little I know
    Participant

    Doom:

    You wrote: “Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
    You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?”

    Rav Shmuel shlit”a specified that this was not during an outbreak. If you don’t believe, ask him.

    Rav Shmuel was not pro-vax. But he was not anti-vax either. Review direct quotes from him. His Rebbetzin was anti-vax. No idea whether she changed her mind, or thinks differently during an outbreak.

    #1636883

    2scents
    Participant

    Dooms,.

    “Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
    You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?”

    Nope note at all, this is not an anti-vax position, it just means that the schools must accept them.
    Furthermore, he has not said this when there was an outbreak, even if he were to say so, does not mean that he recommends not vaccinating. otherwise, he would have said so.

    #1636895

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Doomsday
    “Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
    You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?”

    1) No.
    2) That wasnt the question. The question was if he opposes vaccinations (from a religous standpoint) not if he says people should be free to choose, nor if he personally “believes” in vaccinations.

    for example, I hate brussel sprouts. I refuse to allow my children to attend a school that serves brussel sprouts. Now this doesnt mean I am religiously opposed to brussel sprouts. The two are not synoymous.

    “You cannot compare vaccines to wearing seatbelts:”
    Ok I grant, that seatbelts are probably a bit more dangerous than vaccines, but the comparison still holds

    “1. Is there a world wide movement claiming seatbelts are dangerous to children?”
    Oh my friend, has being a pro-diseaser taught you nothing? It is a huge planet and there are all sorts of nutty beelifs out there

    “2. Are there thousands of parents reporting that seatbelts caused harm to their child?”
    Do you know how many people rachmana litzlan were wearing setbelts when they died? well over thousands
    MY neighbor told me that shortly before her child was diagnosed with autism, she had buckled a dangerous seatbelt around him.

    “3. Are there thousands of parents demanding to “opt out” of the seatbelt laws?”

    why do what other parents what affect my rights? You said the government cant regulate what I do with my children

    “4. Are these over 150 studies linking seatbelts to injury?”
    We can make them!

    “5. Do seatbelts contain known dangers like mercury or aluminum? or live viruses?”

    Um yes!!!!! the buckle is often pure aluminum!
    It was hard to find the exact ingredients but that just proves that big-auto is hiding the truth from us.

    #1636896

    2scents
    Participant

    Dooms,

    If your research would not have been selective, you would have also noticed that the supreme court has taken the position that states may implement mandatory vaccination laws. It has been ruled that this is constitutional.

    Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

    Schools have the right to refuse admission to an unvaccinated student.
    Zucht v. King

    #1636898

    doomsday
    Participant

    Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky IS anti-vaccination. Just google “Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky Vaccines” and you
    will find several sites saying Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky called Vaccines “bad” and “A HOAX!”

    #1636962

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday
    “Are you going to admit you were Wrong, Uniquitin?”

    Yes, though I should note that thiat is an interpretation of the constitution and not the constitution. But I grant that that distinction is silly and given that the supreme court has interpreted the constitution that way, the constitution does in fact protect parental rights and I was wrong.

    That said you agree that these rights arent absolute.
    and for example you feel (unlike the supreme court) that the government can overrule paretns when it comes to prolonging life.
    Do I understand you correctly?

    #1637116

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Whatever right is taken from the parents is given to the child, not the state.

    #1637104

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky called Vaccines “bad” and “A HOAX!”

    while this position is anti-vaxx the one about schools is not.

    and Again, that isn’t what we are discussing.
    The question isnt what he holds, the question is from a religious standpoint

    #1637155

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton, I really RESPECT YOU for saying you were wrong. Nobody is perfect, INCLUDING ME.
    It really destroys the credibility of OTHER ProVaxxers when they refuse to admit they are wrong and keep repeating their false assertions.

    I do believe Government has an obligation to protect children from IMMINENT danger from parents.
    I am conflicted about parents making decisions to allow their child to Die – but I am leaning more to
    Parents can make that decision for a child who is in a permanent vegetative state. Of course Jews must
    ask a Shayla. This comes up more often regarding one’s parents.

    #1637168

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: The question isnt what [Rabbi Kaminetsky] holds, the question is from a religious standpoint

    Another on these threads said she asked an elderly godol a SHAYLA on whether she should vaccinate her
    children and the answer was NO. She said this was asked two weeks (during the current outbreak).
    Parents have a Religious obligation to keep their children safe. There are risks in both vaccinating and
    not vaccinating and debate over which is the bigger risk. I believe since both positions have risks, the
    PARENTS and not the government make that decision.

    #1637171

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are risks in both vaccinating and
    not vaccinating and debate over which is the bigger risk.

    There’s not much of a debate. The vast majority of experts say the risks of not vaccinating far outweighs the risks involved in vaccinating.

    The halachah is clearly that in medical matters, we follow the opinion of the majority of experts, and aren’t choshesh for the minority (or espouse conspiracy theories about the majority opinion).

    The “psak” to not vaccinate simply doesn’t make sense.

    That’s why the vast majority of poskim say to vaccinate. As to the small minority opinion, you’ll have to ask them.

    #1637194

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If there were no clear answer, it would be up to the children, not the parents. Children are people, not property.

    #1637199

    Meno
    Participant

    I believe since both positions have risks, the PARENTS and not the government make that decision.

    What if the parents work for the government? Who makes the decision then?

    #1637207

    doomsday
    Participant

    Reb Yid: If there were no clear answer, it would be up to the children, not the parents. Children are people, not property.
    Children are not competent to make decisions. That is why Hashem created Parents to make those decisions.

    #1637225

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Doomsday, I disagree, and I present you as evidence.

    #1637221

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @doomsday

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/studies-on-vaccines-you-might-have-missed/page/8/#post-1635578

    You still haven’t responded to my comments about your claim that “157 studies” show that vaccines cause autism. Remember, you have to Google the following:

    • “Vaccines and autism: A thorough review of the evidence” from the blog “The Logic of Science”
    • “About Those Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link” from the blog “Vaxopedia”

      To remind everyone: @doomsday stated on another thread (over and over again) that there are many studies linking immunization to autism. First s/he claimed 24, but that number went up to 157 the next day. Instead of providing a source, s/he kept saying “Google it”. S/he is constantly calling me and others “liars” because we don’t believe him/her. So I Googled it and found a few blogs debunking the claim but s/he keeps pretending I didn’t.

    #1637304

    Sirknowsalot
    Participant

    What I find interesting, is if vaccines cause learning disabilities and autism etc., does that mean the parents of unvaccinated children all have learning disabilities and such themselves? Presumably the parents have been vaccinated so how do they explain being unaffected by the vaccines they were given as children?

    #1637424

    Milhouse
    Participant

    If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah!

    The government already can outlaw circumcision if it wants to, so long as it is not specifically targeting religious practice. If it bans circumcision for everybody, and its motive is not to attack religion, then it has the power to do so.

    It can make an exception for religious purposes, and if such a hypothetical ban were to pass it almost certainly would make such an exception, but it would not have to. It would be entirely within its powers to say no exceptions, and we’d have to go to another city or state for milah, or do it illegally.

    Nothing we do or say about vaccines can change or affect this. Governments inherently have this power. The reason they don’t ban milah is not because they can’t but because they don’t want to.

    #1637426

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.

    This is a specific, provable claim, so you have a chance to verify your credibility. When did Congress make this request? In other words, on what date did the joint resolution pass either house, and what is its number? Was there any response from the CDC, and if so when, and what was it? Put up or shut up.

    #1637428

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Provaxxers, does it concern you at all that Mandatory Vaccinations are a violation of the Geneva Convention and Nuremberg Laws?

    No, they’re not. The Geneva Conventions apply to armies during wars. They have no application in civilian life. And the Nuremberg Laws were NAZI laws, you idiot. They didn’t ban vaccinations, they banned Jews! It’s a mitzvah to violate them!

    #1637433

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Per the Constitution, ONLY Parents have the right to make decisions for their child unless that parent was found to be unfit after having a Trial and Jury.

    That is just not true.

    #1637449

    Milhouse
    Participant

    a parent may not be deprived of his/her parental rights without Due Process (7th Amendment) and a Show of Unfitness.

    Indeed. This does not require a trial, let alone a jury.

    All the decisions you cite are about custody, or education, or a parent’s right to commit a child against his will to a mental institution, etc. None of them rule out the state requiring vaccination of children, just as it may do of adults.

    #1637464

    Health
    Participant

    To all pro-vaxxers: It’s Not worth it to argue with these Anti-vaxxers.
    1. Like Dr. Roberts writes they will never listen to reason.
    2. Giving them the time of day – lets people w/o education think that there are two sides to this argument. There Never was & there Never will BE!

    #1637510

    doomsday
    Participant

    Right. Vaccination is a RELIGION and you are NOT ALLOWED to question Vaccines, you Heretics!

    #1637517

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Umm, it’s the anti vaxxers claiming religious exemption.

    #1637527

    doomsday
    Participant

    Right. We have a Religious obligation to Protect our health and the health of our children.
    And that is OUR decision and not your.
    Vaccine Industry has ANOTHER 271 vaccines about to be released.
    So, y’all gonna line up for 271 MORE vaccines?

    #1637548

    doomsday
    Participant

    Millhouse: Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.

    This is a specific, provable claim, so you have a chance to verify your credibility. When did Congress make this request? In other words, on what date did the joint resolution pass either house, and what is its number? Was there any response from the CDC, and if so when, and what was it? Put up or shut up.

    “Congressman Bill Posey from Florida was just as bad as Burton, demanding a study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children [from CDC]” Forbes Magazine 2012

    CDC has refused to comply with doing a vaxxed vs unvaxxed study (because it will prove that CDC and
    Vaccine Industry knowingly harmed millions of children). So Congressman Posey is taking the further step of introducing a bill requiring the study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children. It is H.R. 1757, and Representative Carolyn Maloney is a co-sponsor.

    So Millhouse, are you going to admit I have credibility or continue to Lie?

    #1637537

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We have a Religious obligation to Protect our health and the health of our children.

    But how to do so is not a religious matter, it’s a medical/scientific one.

    You are are as uninformed about the law as you are about health.

    #1637568

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “Congressman Bill Posey from Florida was just as bad as Burton, demanding a study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children [from CDC]” Forbes Magazine 2012

    Congressman Bill Posey is not Congress.

    #1637574

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, I Googled the article you quoted. Very informative.

    Care to quote the rest of it, or shall I?

    #1637580

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bottom line: when you wrote, “Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.”, it was a lie.

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