The coffee room is ussor and I’m trying to make sure people chap

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  • #2116604
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The way Beruriah spoke to Rebbe Yosi Haglili when he asked for directions in Eruvin (53,2) was disrespectful.

    #2116702
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Syag, sometimes boredom (esp during Covid and the rainy season) gets to me and I up my reading and sometimes posting more frequently. This is a mild summer in the PNW and I’ve been enjoying the pool far more than previous years when it was too hot (100+) to float or swim.

    Good shabbos to all, even those who find the posts of a female steps on the road to perdition:)

    #2116865
    Moish26
    Participant

    Mrs who just posted it is not I in my gashmiusdige seichel that decided that men and women should not chat recreationally for no reason other than to chill share opinions etc.

    It is the heilge creator G-D who in his Torah said that men should not chat with women for no reason who siad this, (and again a female posting is not the problem it is the fact that it is a mixed forum where men and women chat for no reason although I guess u are contributing (and I am as well for awareness of the issue))

    Pls don’t answer where in the Torah does it say I assume your not a cofer and beileve in Torah shbel peh pls see my previous posts for where u can find a rav who says this.

    #2116925
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @moishe26 what was your user name beforee u used this?

    #2117042
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @moishe26 I don’t think you have proved that the mixture in the CR is any worse than being on any other internet forum (meaning dealing with the regular issues of bitul zman leitzanus etc. which must be dealt with)

    Earlier on this thread someone shared the discussion in the poskim about whether kol b’isha ervah applies when you don’t know who the person is. There are many poskim who permit even that.
    And that is much worse, since you are literally hearing the voice of the woman. And, according to some poskim, kol b’isha ervah only applies to hearing a woman sing; listening to her talk is not included (although see Kovetz teshuvos of Rav Elyashiv who held it was assur for a woman to give a lecture in front of men, and some communities are strict like this. But others are lenient about this).

    Here, we not only are lacking women singing, they are not even “talking” but merely writing down, further removed from the real issur. Thus even if you would know who the woman is, it would be mutar.
    And, everything is completely anonymous; so even if it was actual singing there would be room to be lenient.
    So here, when we have both advantages, it is very hard to be strict.

    As to your concern that “people are developing emotional connections with the other gender”- I don’t think that is a problem here.
    First off, that issue is usually mentioned in reference to private communications- emails, DMs, etc. between a man and woman.
    When posting in a public forum, there is not nearly the concern of “kirvah”.

    Second, the anonymity on this site ensures that there is no intergender emotional connection formed here.
    There are numerous people here who I had assumed were one gender, until I found out the opposite.
    So even though I know some of them are women, I still relate to them all as being men.

    For all the above, I do not believe that this site is so problematic; if you personally feel it is below your standard, then you should definitely get off.
    But I don’t think we can insist that everyone get off…

    #2117045

    What is chevra’s opinion of 5 girls who had a temerity to come discuss their financial issues with Moshe rabbeinu? Did they have to go thru tziporah?

    #2117058
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Shlomo Hamelech repeated what the woman said regarding the baby, so in arguments when the litigants go through an agent like Tziporah something might be lost in translation.

    #2117059
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The halacha is that a rav or rebbe of talmidim must be married as women might talk to him. Moish if not married, you right, you should get off this platform.

    #2117072
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Moshi26, I respect that you’re standing up for proper Yidishe values.

    However, whether it’s right or wrong, that doesn’t take away from the irony of discussing the issur of using YWN ON YWN!

    You are having a disucussion with many anonymous users, many of whom are possibly women – about the issur of talking to women on a forum!

    I can think of many Torah phrases that redicule this behavior: טובל ושרץ בידו, כל הפוסל במומו פוסל, קשוט עצמך ואחר כך קשוט אחרים, etc. etc. Of course this does not mean that we must be perfect before helping others in their Yiddishkeit, but you can’t do an aveira to help others refrain from that very aveira.

    Imagine if one fine Shabbos morning, someone would (ch”v) start a thread about how terrible it is that people are posting on forums on Shabbos. That would be rediculous!

    #2117142

    I think if moishe were to encounter Beruriah online, she could teach him how to make his question shorter

    #2117147
    ujm
    Participant

    Gefilte Fish: You are mixing up and confusing two different and separate issues. Kol Isha has nothing to do with the prohibition against unnecessarily chatting with a woman.

    #2117149
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, your comment seems to indicate that you believe unmarried people shouldn’t be conversing over the internet due to intermingling of the genders. Correct?

    #2117150
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: But Bruria committed suicide.

    #2117162
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    Isn’t it because he might have yichud with them?

    #2117166
    ujm
    Participant

    CA, why might he have Yichud? He knows to avoid such a setup.

    #2117231

    Ujm, I am bringing her as an example that rabonim did not seem to object to her learning. Are you saying they were wrong based on the tragic outcome? Or maybe we need to conclude that husbands need to be more understanding of their learned wives instead of testing their psyche . In general, it is not a good idea to make up nisyonim, Hashem knows which ones are the right ones, but people don’t as in this example

    #2117819
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ujm, I think kol isha is worse than here not hearing whom you are mingling with and I indicated that it is mutir, permitted.

    #2117871
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, what about Al Tarbe Sicha Im Haisha?

    #2117907
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Since you don’t read I must repeat what I wrote:
    What is says אל תרבה שיחה עם אשה, don’t speak much with a woman, I don’t think applies if you don’t know her, see her or hear her. Her political views or Torah views will not affect you.
    We have to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. The wife the husband recognizes and knows, so must be others. The kal vechamer has a pircha, can be questioned. She will tell what you said about other people to the neighbors which can cause friction.

    #2117925
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Should be עם האשה with the woman who is recognized as his wife.

    #2117938
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, your comment about אל תרבה שיחה עם אשה, seems to indicate you’d have no problem with a man having a female Pen Pal (or email pal) that they write letters to each other every few days, for long periods of times, since it fits into the criteria you established that they haven’t met each other and they don’t see each other or hear each other.

    Is this your own boich svara or do you have any source for this criteria you established?

    #2118038
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The svara is, if there is a stipulation that there will not be a discussion about each others family and private matters but business and politics, there is no problem as the ruling of kol beisha discussed above. The woman in her discussion is seen as a man. We don’t know what the gender is and women are asked as the men not to reveal their gender. No one knew that I was a man until I revealed it and maybe I should not have.
    Moish26 gave a reference above whether permitted to talk to another gender who says, ‘It is permitted for a man to talk to a woman regarding work or business related subjects [serious and to the point conversations’. This has a reference: See Beis Shmuel 21/4 “However hearing her voice during speech is permitted”; There is no prohibition found in Poskim regarding interaction with a woman for business related matters or other everyday activity, and so is the custom even amongst G-d fearing Jews to have work conversations with women when necessary.
    Over here it does not say they don’t know each other, so it says when necessary.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #2118041
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ujm, your criteria might be a yichud problem as it might be done in private whereas over here communication is in the open.

    #2118114
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, you’re saying that writing a letter or an email to a woman (or a woman to a man) is a Yichud problem, correct?

    #2118116
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    “‘It is permitted for a man to talk to a woman regarding work or business related subjects… See Beis Shmuel 21/4 “However hearing her voice during speech is permitted”; There is no prohibition found in Poskim regarding interaction with a woman for business related matters”

    The CR isn’t business related matters.

    #2118129
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    It’s also not talking

    #2118135
    ujm
    Participant

    Syag, what’s your position on a man and woman being Pen Pals or Email Pals?

    #2118147
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Yes, it might be but the CR is public. Writing is better than talking.

    #2118149

    RebE > Should be עם האשה with the woman who is recognized as his wife.

    How would a man recognize that an anonymous poster is his wife?
    If she does not pay attention to his posts.

    #2118150

    Seems like you are zeroing in on the key question: what is the purpose of communication?

    Business matters are OK. At the same time, some conversations here are osur for any combinations of genders. Maybe a rule of thumb should be – do not type anything you would not say face-to-face to a reasonable person. Again, should work for all genders.

    #2118170
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, I agree.

    #2118215
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When writing in private to each other, one might create a rendezvous, wanting to meet each other.

    #2118278
    ujm
    Participant

    “Yes, it might be but the CR is public. Writing is better than talking.”

    Reb Eliezer, you’re saying writing to a woman (Pen Pal/Email Pal) is a Yichud problem. Presumably you’d say the same problem exists with phone calls. Apparently you’re basing this on the quantity of the letters/emails/calls; and you’d say that a single (or very small number) of phone calls or emails or letters between a man and woman is okay. But on what basis are you asserting a Yichud problem is only a problem if it is too often? Having Yichud even once is assur.

    #2118383
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When writing to each other is not really yichud as it is different than personnel private mingling where only the often communication creates the friendship to want a personnel meeting.

    #2118385
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think that the CR is ‘not’ yichud under any condition as it is ‘public’ and the mods will ‘deter’ any personnel communication. Therefore it is ‘not’ assur as the OP perceives.

    #2118441
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I will quote the rules posted by the mods which should eliminate the problems discussed.

    Personal Info

    1 – Please don’t try to pry out personal information. Any questions or comments directed towards trying to “figure out” a blogger’s identity will not be tolerated.

    2 – Personal email addresses or websites will not be published. Posts that ask others to meet them at “Plonis” will not be approved. Should a blogger continuously try to pry personal information from others, he/she will be booted from YWN

    #2118552
    Zushy
    Participant

    סימן טוב ומזל טוב

    I have been wondering about this topic for years.

    OK – I only come on bein hazemanim, maybe that makes a difference?

    I am stum wondering about the whole anonymous issue

    I find people’s opinions much easier to approach if I know that they know about the sugya etc … have a specific view etc ….

    I’d love there to be some basic info about people, background, location, experience ….

    #2118559

    Would it be then yichud for mods to read, and sometimes rely, to posters? Oi vei.

    #2118597
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Is there yichud by a doctor or he is tarid bemelachto, busy in his work, if no nurse is available?

    #2118588
    Moish26
    Participant

    Raboisai here goes: Yasher koach to ujm for backing me up and having some seichal to understand what is being said, and it’s just PURE common sense that it’s wrong to be mingling men and woman talking to each other constantly day in day out.(I’m not trying to attack anyone but if you know it’s wrong/ussor why do u do it, ujm?).

    And to menachem your missing the point, what would u like me to do if I want to communicate to the coffee room about something wrong in the CR, how else can I do it other than writing on the coffee room to the cr davka?? (Happens to be this is not about trump and stupidity it’s about serious awareness..)

    To Reb elizer with all due respect your saying shtisim and lukshen by an all you can eat buffet, first of all your not a rav and if u want to know the Halacha you have to ask a rav if it’s mutar, not just bring kal vachomers from kol isha and your own savaras to be matir it (which as side point do NOT make sense), but you don’t want to ask a Ruv because we BOTH know what he will say…. so again real life shalos with NO mention in previous poskim need a rav a real rav to matir and like I mentioned you and I both know what the rav will respond…

    Now to the actual svaras (I can’t get to all right now) 1 yichud has no shaychas with this so I don’t know what the hava amina is. 2 there is no proof/ kal vachomer from kol isha (which as a side point im pretty sure other poskim argue on Reb ovadia and even if not, minhag yirei shmayaim is not to listen to women sing which basic HASHKAFA will “asser”) kol isha is listening to a Woman sing that is completely different from this discussion, you can’t bring a proof from woman singing, to speaking with a woman day in day out about stupidity about which you get to know the others personality.

    About your Svaras… it’s wrong, that’s why you keep going from one to the other in all ur posts… I can also quote chazal let me put one here that’s actually relevant ‏כל העובר עבירה ‏ושנה בה ‏נעשית לו כהיתר, let me just put one example case in point, (and that will defer all your defenses of 1 the moderators make sure people don’t get personal (ha, funny) 2 writing with a pen pal is diffrent/worse and 3 it’s only a problem if ur single (what?))
    Case in point I’m gonna use ujm (sorry) because I’ve seen he’s been here for a long time, when ujm sees syag lachochma [on the cr](which I think is a girl but it doesn’t matter to the point I want to make) he recognizes the latters personality and thought process to the extent that he knows how to respond, and can even bring back old jokes and they know each other’s personality to an extent that they already know how to communicate to a certain degree that it’s personal. Now drop that example and just realize this happens and is happening with evreyone in the cr that over here with one another and the matzav is that people are chapping others personality and bonding with one another like friends(girls and boys!!!) and kol shkein if you know that the other is of the opposite gender-the connection that evreyone in the cr builds with each other-is going to be between man and woman that know that they are men and woman speaking!!! And there is a ‏התחברות between man and woman happening with each other, getting to know and communicate with the others personality day in day out (about stupidity mind you) and subconsciously or even consciously from a friendship (men and woman!!!!) This is besides the clear HALACHA that men and woman should not communicate for things that are not important/ not Nogeia and that is in definition “the coffee room” (hence the name) basically a chill spot to shcmooze men and women together for stupidity,

    again this needs a rav to be matir and in my eyes it’s clearly ussor al pee hashkafa AND Halacha it’s just poshut like I realized nobody’s really gonna change… and Reb elizer I’m upset at ur heterim that ur making for others and yourslef that don’t really exist al kul punim everyone should have hatzlacha and please maybe even be misgaber on there yetzer and leave the coffee room, which is hard because you know and connect to a lot of people there , which proves my point ‏ושנזכה למשיח צדקנו במהרה בימינו אמן

    #2118645
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Mosh26, are you a Rav? If not, don’t tell people what to do. Your own reference about talking to the opposite gender indicated it is ok as no flirtation is allowed here where even her voice quoted from the Beis Shmuel is not a problem. So if you are unhappy and have a problem, no one wants to hear your views and get off this platform. As pointed out the mods are available to make sure that no private and personnel information is conveyed. I think you are speaking shtusim and lakshen as כל הפוסל במומו פוסל, one faults with his own faults. The women over here communicate just as men where their views are gender neutral. Only you care if the communicator is a woman or man and no one else, so it looks like you have a problem. I don’t ask anyone because I don’t think it is a shaila. I will tell you a story that my father a’h told me. A Rav gave a drasha about the issur of bowling. Someone who wanted the Rav to see what he is talking about took him to a bowling alley and showed him how it is played by throwing the ball and knocking down the pins. The Rav said this is a game but not bowling. When asking a shaila, one must tell the Rav the full circumstances how people on the CR mostly don’t know each other to whom they are talking to by writing in public and the mods (supervisors) don’t allow any private and personnel information as I quoted by the policy and principles that have been instituted here for the communicators by threatening them to be booted off.

    #2118658
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Moish, you yourself still are not sure if Syag is a woman, so what are you talking about? I don’t see their personality revealed but you have revealed yours. Probably a bachur who is not sure about himself. You have not shown any halacha that this is an issur. Over here we discuss ‘gender neutral’ topics.

    #2118668

    Look carefully at teshuvot that discuss in-person communication, such as Igros Moshe: is he mentioning an alternative of answering teshuvos in writing? As most of warning is regarding voice, talking, looking, it is obvious that writing is preferred. If there are some restrictions on writing, the poskim should be mentioning those. But this is for necessary discussion. The biggest question on CR would be for silly discussions…

    There is also a halakhic consideration of derech eretz that overrides extreme precautions. If you are in a society where people talk, then you should say shabbat shalom and mazal tov; if you live in a shtetl where this is not done, then don’t (most poskim, check with your own). So, ignoring a reasonable post by a lady may qualify as an offense against derech eretz.

    #2123174
    Moish26
    Participant

    I’m so sorry you feel offended Reb elizer becuase of what I said, again I’m reiterating that whatever proofs you brought do not have shaychus to this case, this case is not kol isha, and your sevaras are not really making sense to me and they seem to not really have shaychus to this case, (ie. you were speaking about yichud and kol isha)

    Anyhow the smoking gun to this case is this https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/goodbye-coffee-room-1

    In the above link you will see how others respond to one leaving the coffee room this proves my sevara is true, it shows that there is a connection made between people in the coffee room, one personmakes a deep connection to that others personality and there’s real emotional connection on a deep level between men and women, as ujm brought up pen pals are ussor becuase you are connecting to the opposite gender emotantailly and feeling attached to them, and the link above will prove my point about how yiddeshe kinderlach are doing the same on this site, just read some of the reply’s in the above link,
    one being “no pls don’t go”
    Another being “pls continue to check up on me”
    I’m not trying to attack other peoples emotions I’m just trying to point out this proves how attached cr memebers are to each other, men and women soem married, if you wouldn’t have a friend of the opposite gender without your spouse involved why would you do it online???
    HASHEM YERACHEIM

    #2123193
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @26, A TROLL IS A TROLL IS A TROLL, NOW GET LOST

    #2123318
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Moish, see also https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hi-everyone-do-you-guys-remember-me. The poster left and returned four years later.

    #2123329
    ujm
    Participant

    CS: Have you ever met a troll that you agreed with his post? Or do you consider anyone you disagree with to be a troll?

    #2123334
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Moish, you should feel good that people care about you and not show retribution. I don’t know why they care? You can stay on as you create a dislike for yourself.

    #2123335
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @ujm, if the persons only post are trollish in nature that person is a troll

    #2123356
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, they say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

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