The Dov Lipman ResponseóControversial?

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  • #955361
    yytz
    Participant

    HaKatan: I disagree with everything you’re saying, but I’ll limit my response to your claim that all those Jews who died in Israeli wars/terrorism would have lived in the US (“every one of those Jews would still be alive”). First of all, many of those who died wouldn’t have existed in the US because of undeniably higher assimilation rates (whether or not their ancestors were frum) in the US and other countries they could have moved to.

    Second, if all Jews had moved to the US instead of Israel, then many of them would have died early anyway. There were 80,000 U.S. casualties (combat deaths) in Korea and Vietnam. About 180,000 Jewish soldiers fought in those wars, so at least a few hundred, probably a thousand or more Jews died in those wars. There have been another 5,000 combat deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan (about 1% of whom were Jewish) and of course many Jews died on 9/11.

    More importantly, the traffic fatality rate, murder rate and suicide rate are all more than twice as high in the US than in Israel. This would have killed several thousand more Jews, if Israeli Jews had all been living in the US instead.

    Let’s take traffic accidents. From WWII to the present there have been about 25k to 55k traffic fatalities in the US each year. Assuming about 1% of those is Jewish (which is conservative, since Jews are 2% of the population), that’s 250-550 Jewish deaths per year, half of which would not have happened if they’d been in Israel. If that’s about 400 excess Jewish deaths per year, then about 26,000 Jews (400*65) have died in car accidents in the US who would have survived if they’d lived in Israel. That alone is more than all the war/terror fatalities in Israel.

    So if we’re talking about early deaths, whether by war or other means, I don’t think you can say Israelis are worse off. They may even be better off.

    #955362
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to all: “Hakatan’s mission in life is to denigrate millions of jews and maintan that the worst thing that happeend to the jews was the medinah. He continues the big lie that the Rabbonim of the past agree with him -they don’t and he never actually shows writings to support him. As it is useless to argue with him, I won’t. EXcept to say that millions of jews disagree with him and that Israel will live ‘lolmei ad”

    #955363
    mewho
    Participant

    now you know that dov lippman has made it bigtime. once you are the subject of discussion on yw, you are famous.

    really guys, agree or dont agree but cut out the name calling

    #955364
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    For all those who criticize Rabbi Lipman and make him out to be the most evil person since Titus, I challenge you to actually read what he did say and see Rav Feldman’s apology to him.The facts are simple-as Rabbi Lipman maintains- the chareidim who do not acquire even the most basic secular knowledge, like math, will never be able to enter the workforce and will be poor forever, dependent upon zedakah all their lives. That,says Rabbi Lipman is not the Torah way. The Torah clearly enjoins husbands to feed their wives, fathers to teach their sons a profession and all Jews to go out to work for a living. He is right and the chareidi public in Israel is now paying for their misguided ways.

    #955365
    charliehall
    Participant

    “called Zionism the Avoda Zara/apikorsus that it is. “

    And yet they respected Zionists such as Rav Reines, Rav Kook, Rav Herzog, and Rav Soloveitchik. They would not have done so had they thought that they were apicursim.

    “There are no other valid shitos in this regard”

    I just proved you wrong on that one.

    #955366
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: Could you care to be more specific in what you want me to read? Because the only things I’ve found saying what you seem to want to say are by Tanya Reinhart, who seems to be a Talmidah (both in reality and thought) of Noam Chomsky.

    #955367
    Daniel Rosen
    Member

    charliehall: you do not respect Rav Soloveitchik who says a women cannot be a president of a shule. So kindly do not bring up poskim that you pick and choose to follow to spread your conservative Judaism agenda.

    #955368
    Sam2
    Participant

    Daniel Rosen: Do you use an Eruv in New York? Or Shabbos clocks? If yes, kindly never quote R’ Moshe again because you obviously disrespect him. Or the Chazon Ish either, for that matter. Not holding by everything someone says is not always equal to picking and choosing. It depends on what issue. The only time you can’t disagree with a P’sak of someone is if they’re your Rav Muvhak/Posek. Otherwise, you should never quote anyone when you hold by a different Shittah that someone else has.

    #955369
    Daniel Rosen
    Member

    Oy vey Sam2, the person who says lo silbash has nothing to do with arayos. I am sorry but I cannot get into debates with specifically you due your a fundamental lack of understanding of halacha. I am not alone with this on YN. I am not trying to cause machloches. Please lets go our seperate ways.

    #955370
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2, I’m not sure what site you’re referring to, but that wasn’t what I read and we can’t post links.

    Charlie, despite the varying degrees of respect they did accord to the rabbis you mentioned, they still held firmly that those views were wrong. But since you mentioned it: I believe it was Rav Aharon Kotler who said that Rabbi Soloveichik destroyed an entire generation. In the case of Rabbi Kook, he happened to hold a political position so if anyone wanted anything from him then they had to respect him. Regardless, the point is that they held that Zionist theology is absolutely wrong irrespective of any respect accorded to its proponents.

    ROB, you’re the one perpetrating a big lie. The Brisker Rov, Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon Wasserman among many others, some as recorded in their respective seforim (e.g. Ikvesa DiMishicha) were absolutely opposed to Zionism and called it the Avoda Zara/heresy that it is.

    You’re falsely claiming that is my “mission”. In fact, I have no interest in denigrating anyone. But Zionism is not, lihavdil, Judaism.

    yytz, this is absurd. Were it not for Zionism and the State of Israel, there would have been no victims of Arab terror and no fallen/wounded IDF soldiers. Whether or not some of them might have suffered a misfortune, CH”V, in any country, is irrelevant and doesn’t come close to accounting for terror victims and fallen/wounded IDF soldiers.

    Some of them also might have remained in their country of origin, like the Yemenites did since Bayis Rishon with their Mesorah intact until the Zionists shmaded them and threw their sefarim and kisvei yad overboard as soon as they arrived in Israel. Not to mention their kids.

    Come on.

    #955371
    EY Mom
    Participant

    Two things:

    Number one, can someone please show me one chareidi school that doesn’t teach basic math? I have lived here for almost 20 years and have not come across one.

    Number two, can someone please tell me – if Yesh Atid et al do not have an agenda, how come Arab schools get to teach whatever they want and still keep their funding, but chareidi schools can’t?

    #955372
    mdd
    Member

    HaKatan I am familiar with the Brisker shittah on Zionism. Kvodam be’mkomam munch, nobody held like that. Anybody familiar with the history of the Zionist movement knows it has nothing to with reality. Yes, at least, some early Zionists and also Socialists and others were anti-frum and wanted to take people of the derech. That was not, however, the essense of the Zionist movement. And, please, do not start with contentions that the Brisker rov could not be wrong.

    And how about a visit to Eastern Europe to see the roots of Zionism in the behavior of the locals?

    #955373
    HaKatan
    Participant

    mdd, what part of the Brisker shita does “nobody” hold like? Is it the part about not taking any money from the government, perhaps?

    The Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Aharon Kotler, and many others held the same regarding Zionism and the State in general. See also this thread:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/interesting-position-of-harav-eliyahu-meir-bloch-ztl-on-the-state-of-israel

    Regarding the “locals”, think of the many gedolim who were asked about and/or encountered far worse behavior from their respective locals and knew better than to make it WORSE by violating the 3 oaths and attempting to make a state in Eretz Yisrael (as seems to have happened in Israel). Rambam’s Igeres Teiman comes to mind, for example.

    #955374
    mdd
    Member

    The shittah that the whole Zionist movement was created to shmad Yidden.

    Plus,not everybody holds that the 3 shvuos were an issue.

    #955375
    charliehall
    Participant

    “I believe it was Rav Aharon Kotler who said that Rabbi Soloveichik destroyed an entire generation. “

    I would be very surprised that he said that since Rav Kotler had Rav Soloveitchik appear as the featured speaker for the first fundraising dinner for Chinuch Atzmai.

    #955376
    charliehall
    Participant

    “you do not respect Rav Soloveitchik who says a women cannot be a president of a shule”

    Motzi shem ra.

    #955377
    charliehall
    Participant

    “you do not respect Rav Soloveitchik who says a women cannot be a president of a shule”

    Next you will be saying that Rabbi Hershel Schachter does not respect Rav Soloveitchik because he wears techelit in spite of Rav Soloveitchik saying that we can never re-establish a lost mesorah.

    #955378
    mdd
    Member

    HaKatan, about the losses. Between 50,000 and 200,000 Yidden were killed in pogroms during the Russian Civil war alone (ok, it was the biggest loss around the end of 19 – begining of 20 century, but still).

    #955379
    mdd
    Member

    Besides, get over it. The medinah exists. And it is very succesful. Stop clering shailos from the 1930s. Time to move on.

    #955380
    Daniel Rosen
    Member

    Rabbi Hershel Schachter does not pick and choose. You do. You publicly support an institution named yeshivat maharat that not one gadol would ever support. yeshiva maharat is no better than conservative judaism. So at least admit what side you are on before quoting gedolim.

    #955381
    Health
    Participant

    EY Mom -“Number one, can someone please show me one chareidi school that doesn’t teach basic math?”

    Even if they don’t -since when is it the Gov. responsibility to make sure that they do? This is the parents’ responsibility. Putting yourself in place of the parents is definitely Rishous. Now I personally don’t believe any Yeshiva should take money from the evil Zionists -so maybe this is a good thing.

    “Number two, can someone please tell me – if Yesh Atid et al do not have an agenda, how come Arab schools get to teach whatever they want and still keep their funding, but chareidi schools can’t?”

    Hypocrisy at it’s finest. All of a sudden we have to cut funding to Yeshivos because of no English or Math. It’s funny even without these core subjects most Charedim turn out to be decent citizens. If there is a problem in education it’s in the Freye schools. After these schools they learn behaviors which aren’t good for society, like violent crime, alcoholism, drug addiction, how to get AIDS, how to have abortions, etc. Perhaps the Israeli Gov. should pay more money to the Yeshivos to teach them how to raise people who won’t have all society ills. They seem to be doing a much better job than the rest of the Israeli society.

    #955382
    HaKatan
    Participant

    mdd, those other deaths are not relevant to the discussion here, and, regarding your next post, the many issues of Zionism are not “shailos from the 1930s”.

    People still believe in this Avoda Zara of Zionism, even with the benefit of hindsight of decades of history, including the tens of thousands of Jews who died, some rather horrifically, for this idol of Zionism. Not only are so many people fooled by Zionism as an ideology, but they even more obscenely graft it onto, lihavdil, our holy and pure religion.

    If Zionists of all stripes (secular, “religious”, whatever) would admit that their religion is either Zionism or part-Zionism/part-Judaism, and not authentic Judaism, and would announce to the entire world that they are not representing Jews but, instead, Zionists, then there would not be much to discuss about it going forward.

    But as long as people still mistakenly believe that this (or any) avoda zara of Zionism is permissible, the “shaila” (or, more accurately, the need to explain the “terutz”, that Zionism is Avoda Zara) still is relevant.

    #955383
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Charlie:

    I would not at all be surprised considering:

    their respective positions on college, and

    the following:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/becoming-chareidi-or-mo/page/3

    #955384
    rebdoniel
    Member

    R’ Kotler’s book, Mishnas Rav Aharon, contains a very strong condemnation of Modern Orthodoxy.

    #955385
    EY Mom
    Participant

    Health:

    My point about the math is that not only is this stand hypocritical – the Arabs can teach what they want and still get money but the chareidim can’t – it is also a farce.

    Lipman, Lapid et al have mentioned over and over again that chareidim are not taught basic math. That is a lie, and they know it.

    #955386
    mdd
    Member

    HaKatan, whar are you talking about?!?!? Those deaths are irrelevant?They show how bad it was in golus. You can’t just count the deaths from the Israeli wars, but diregard those other ones.

    Admit to the entire world that they do not represent Jews, but Zionists? What in the world are you talking about?!?The entire world (except for some ignorant Yeshivish fellows such as yourself) realizes that they represent ethnic Jews and not the religion of Judaism. Plus, they live there without persecution (except for some frumaks dreying the kup).

    #955387
    mdd
    Member

    EY Mom, you seem to live in a different E.Yisroel. In your E.Yisroel the Chariedim are not supported by the government and learn the basic subjects (eventhough they themsleves admit that they don’t). Go check your facts. And I doubt your info about the Arabs also.

    #955388
    mdd
    Member

    Health, I generally do not enter into arguments with you, but one short thing. Without those subjects they turn out not having the skills to learn a normal parnossa!!! I am sure you learnt plenty of science to become a doctor,did not you? Not everything the Israeli Government does is evil. OK? It is hypocricy on your part to decry the introduction of the secular studies in E.Y. yeshivos as you yourself learnt plenty of it!

    #955389
    Avi K
    Participant

    HaKatan, you are spouting nonsense. A long list of gedolim (Rav Kook, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kasher,etc., etc.) supported Zionism. Other gedolim may have opposed certain Zionists but any alleged statements calling Zionism per se heresy or avoda zara are extremely exaggerated and in some cases outright forgeries – in fact, there is a whole book put out by Mossad HaRav Kook called “Forged Letters Against Zionism”.

    #955390
    Ches
    Member

    rd: What’s your point about Rav Kotler?

    mdd: EY Mom is absolutely correct that every Chareidi yeshiva in EY teaches mathematics. Lipman and Lapid are liars. And the fact that Jews were killed in Europe is no excuse for the zionists having caused thousands and thousands of Jewish deaths in their wars and because of ongoing Arab terrorism. That is hardly peaceful living and Jews elsewhere today don’t live under such a threat.

    #955391
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Hakatan,

    Pleas don’t pick and choose. Because the Gedolim didn’t recognize that the world they knew for centuries, millions were lost to death and shmad.

    Through the Crusades, blood libels,and pogroms Jew either rebuilt in place or left. In either case it happened as a kahilla and the cummunity was able to go . In addition, Jews stayed frum becasue the only option was conversion.

    With the pogroms of the 1880’s, things changed. Many Gedolim advocated that Jews not leave because the oppresion and poverty made it easier to keep Jews frum. What hat changed was that Jews now had options, either the treife medina or the various secular isms ( socialism, anarchism and yes, zionism ).Despite instructins not to go to the treife medina, Jews began leaving in huge numbers. And, because for the first time they were leaving without Rabbanim and without the kihila, many were lost to assimilation. Had the Gedolim recognized that Jews were going to the US anyway and sent rabbanim to guide them, things might have been diffrent. Had they organized mass immigration under their guidance perhaps the Jews killed in WW!, the Russian civil war, the Holocaust or were shmadded by the Comminists after 1917, might have survived.

    The Gedolim were great, but they were also human

    #955392
    mdd
    Member

    Ches(Joe), drei nit ken kup.

    Lesschumras, a lot of your accusations are unfounded and stated disrespectfully. In many situations the Rabbonim did not have the power to do things or it was impossible to know how the things would turn out. The Germans almost got to Eretz Yisroel and Rabbonim coming to America would not have helped. Ridvaz did come btw and left after he saw he was powerless to stop what was going on.

    #955393
    benignuman
    Participant

    The confusion over what is taught in Chareidi Yeshivos is semantic.

    Lipman and Lapid are talking about high schools (i.e. 9th grade and up) and EY Mom is talking about elementary (i.e. through 8th grade).

    I think in terms of the track record of “the Gedolim” it is important to keep in mind that “the Gedolim” is made up of many individuals who often disagree.

    #955394
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    HaKatan: i did not have much time to look over all comments and just realised you asserted- in opposition to my statement- that you have z”no intention of denigrating anyone’. Now that’s a belly laugh. For years now, you have become the main apologist for the terrible things that are said about millions of jews (many chareidm includdd, btw) so spare me the crocodiel tears.

    As far as the opposition to Zionism by many Rabbonim-so what? there were always two sides to any story. The Holocaust and the founding of the medinah put paid to that debate. Look who survived.

    #955395
    Health
    Participant

    mdd -“Without those subjects they turn out not having the skills to learn a normal parnossa!!! I am sure you learnt plenty of science to become a doctor,did not you? Not everything the Israeli Government does is evil. OK? It is hypocricy on your part to decry the introduction of the secular studies in E.Y. yeshivos as you yourself learnt plenty of it!”

    In your haste to defend your beloved Zionists -you didn’t read and/or understand my post. I said the Zionists have no right to force anything on the Charedim – if they want to learn secular subjects on their own -then fine. And if you say well they support them -this doesn’t mean a thing because they also support Chiloni schools. And since the Frum schools are doing a better job in creating decent human beings, like I posted above, start fixing up the Chiloni schools and then come to the Frum schools. After you fix up the Chiloni schools then you can come to the Frum schools with your ultimatums!

    #955396
    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, nobody is forcing them to do anything (unlike in other countries, including America, where they must teach secular subjects or not be recognized under compulsory education laws). The taxpayers will simply no longer be forced to subsidize them. If the Chareidim want to live in dire poverty they will be allowed to live in dire poverty.If they want to stand on their own feet and contribute to the country (and not just be registered as “learning”) they will be helped and encouraged.

    #955397
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, nobody is forcing them to do anything”

    It was clear from the rest of my post what I meant by force. Giving them an ultimatum is wrong -at least until they do the same thing with the Chilonim. But they will never admit the Charedi education beats the Chiloni education -it’s not just what you learn, but how you turn out also.

    #955398
    writersoul
    Member

    “It was clear from the rest of my post what I meant by force. Giving them an ultimatum is wrong -at least until they do the same thing with the Chilonim.”

    Have you confirmed that every single thing Lipman wants to put in place isn’t already present in the chiloni system?

    #955399
    charliehall
    Participant

    “The Germans almost got to Eretz Yisroel”

    That isn’t really true. Rommel — who wasn’t much of a Nazi and was later involved in the plot to kill Hitler — never got past the western part of Egypt (El Alamein). That is sill six hundred kilometers from Eretz Yisrael. Rommel never had anything like the supplies he would have needed to continue an offensive much further.

    #955400
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avi K, it’s interesting you mention “forgeries” and “Rabbi Kasher” in the same sentence and NOT mention…Rabbi Kasher’s forgeries. So, other than his sources, what sources do you have that can quote someone who can hold a candle to the likes of the Chofetz Chaim and all those others and more?


    mdd, you wrote:

    “Plus, they live there without persecution”.

    Who lives where without persecution? Surely you can’t mean Jews in Israel?

    Zionists have endangered (or worse) both the lives and faith of Jews worldwide, and especially in Israel, since well before they established Israel and even more so ever since 1948.

    “Rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz” is what they lived for (and had no problem letting “the old and infirm” die for rather than divert any funds, intended to be used to create the State, to save those Jews trapped in Hitler YM”S’s deadly grasp; even the Zionists admit this).

    #955401
    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB, I don’t recall being named spokesperson for any group, so I don’t know what your accusation of “main apologist” means in this case, but, as is clear from your previous Zionist yes-man posts, your reality vis-a-vis Zionism seems to be subjective to your wishes rather than an objective reflection of the facts, so I suppose this fits right in with whatever dream-land that might be.

    Ayain the other threads where Health pointed out your errors; there were a few humble responses to you from myself as well.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yemenite-jews-and-operation-magic-carpet

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hoatzmaut-and-behab/page/4

    #955402
    mdd
    Member

    Charliehall, there was already a German unit stationed in Greece to go to E.Yisroel to kill Jews once Rommel captures it. Had he won at El Alamein, nothing would be between him and E.Yisroel. And besides, the claiim is that going to E.Y. was a sure, 100%-proof guarantee against the Nazis (and the Rabbonim should have known it). It obviously was not. The Germans could have gotten there. It is easy to be the-day-after strategist.

    #955403
    Health
    Participant

    writersoul -“Have you confirmed that every single thing Lipman wants to put in place isn’t already present in the chiloni system?”

    You actually have to read all my posts to understand my point. Go back and read them (perhaps a few times) and realize that your question is irrevelant to my point!

    #955404
    Leyzer
    Participant

    lesschumras said

    With the pogroms of the 1880’s, things changed. Many Gedolim advocated that Jews not leave because the oppresion and poverty made it easier to keep Jews frum.

    my response:

    is this true? this sounds like a truly dreadful thing to suggest. Can anyone confirm?

    #955405
    benignuman
    Participant

    According to the biography of Reb Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, the Agudah in E”Y was working very hard to get frum Jews from Europe to move to Eretz Yisroel in the years before WWII. They were severely limited however, because the British recognized the Ben Gurion’s group as the official representatives of the Jews and all visa’s had to go through the Hagana. The Hagana did not want “old fashioned” Jews coming to E”Y so they gave the Agudah very, very few visas per year. Eventually the British themselves severely limited all Jewish immigration to appease the Arabs.

    There is a myth out there that Jews could easily just go to E”Y if they had wanted to before the War. It is a gross oversimplification and far from the truth.

    I should point out that the Agudah’s motivation was not to save Jews from Hitler. Their motivation was to combat the growing numbers of Chilonim with numbers of their own.

    #955406
    levlalev
    Member

    I would suggest that anyone who doubts Dov lipman’s sincerity , honesty, or intelligence go onto his website and watch the 15 minute u tube video which he gave as his first address as an MK in the Kneseet ( its in Hebrew with English subtitles) You don’t have to agree with him or his approach but judge him fairly and give him a chance, please. SHP

    #955407
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I must be a glutton for punishment because,normally, i would totally ignore the rantings of HaKatan and Health,his alter ego. I will only say one thing: most of the pro-zionist posters are fair to both sides. They feel (like me) that the medinah was a blessing “min hashomayim” and that its founding has brought untold blessings to the Jews. They also recognize that there were abuses at times and that it still is a work in progress,making advances every day.

    You-in contrast- see nothing good in the medinah (always expressing yourself in terrible ways)and you campaign continually for its destruction (see also Health’s lunatic Turkish option), without giving one moment’s thought to what would happen- chas vecholiloh- if your wishes ever became reality.

    Now, that is the difference between a normal debate with legitimate arguments on both sides and your accusations that have no basis in the truth and the quotation of many comments out of context, both historically and textually.

    SO, whether you represent officially any group, you sure are the most persistent apologist for a shittah that is losing ground every day.

    #955408
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    lesschumras said

    With the pogroms of the 1880’s, things changed. Many Gedolim advocated that Jews not leave because the oppresion and poverty made it easier to keep Jews frum.

    my response:

    is this true? this sounds like a truly dreadful thing to suggest. Can anyone confirm?

    Unfortuantly yes

    In fact the First Lubavitcher Rebbe when Napoleon wanted to emacipate the jews advocted against emacipation because he felt it will lead them to go astry (with some correctness on his part) , He opposed Napoleon and was chased by Napoleon and thrown into Jail.

    #955409
    benignuman
    Participant

    Zahavasdad,

    One Gadol does not many make. You are correct about the first Lubavitcher Rebbe, but I have never heard any similar position taken by any other Torah Giant of yesteryear.

    That being said, there were definitely those who felt that it was better to remain poor in Europe than frei in America.

    #955410
    applesauch
    Member

    The doors to immigration were closed to mass immigration from the mid-1930s and on. No country, not British Palestine and not the United States, were allowing mass immigration. Even if the Jews wanted to, they couldn’t leave. Before the run-up to WWII emigration was a bit easier but no one was a prophet to know that the worst genocide against Jews was coming up.

    Furthermore, not only is it true that a poor Jew is more likely to remain frum than a rich Jew who has many more opportunities and available taivos to go off (and if that is what it takes to keep them frum it is better to be a poor frum Jew than become a rich secular Jew), but even more importantly pre-WWII most Jews who came to America from Europe threw their Talis and Tefilin into the Hudson as they passed the Statue of Liberty. (Figuratively, not literally. The point being that most of them — and especially their children — discarded their Judaism once in America.) So the rabbonim, wisely (not knowing in advance that genocide was to soon occur) advised folks to stay in Europe where they had been living for 2000 years.

    levlalev: If you want to know what kind of provocateur Lipman is, see this video of him:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=113264

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