The fat lady has sung

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  • #1928786
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I am a GOPer who voted for Trump, however IT IS OVER!!!!, get over it, the GOP has the upper hand in the senate, almost tied in the house and in control in most statehouses, let DJT retire to mar a largo and lets go on with life, ITS OVER, ITS OVER, ITS OVER

    #1928820
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Got it!

    #1928823
    akuperma
    Participant

    And to expand beyond the quote from Yogi Berra, taking into account Chief Justice Roberts frequent metaphor of the Supreme Court as umpires, even when one side cheats (consider the Astros two seasons ago, not to mention the “Shot heard around the world” that traumatized Brooklyn 70 years ago), once the umpire calls it, its over.

    P.S. The areas that explain how the Republicans had a good year nationally, while losing the presidency seem to point to a loss in suburban areas where the local election machinery is controlled by Republicans, suggest the problem was Trump alienating part of the Republican base.

    #1928830
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1928833
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Common Saychel is a fat lady?!?

    #1929032
    kollelman
    Participant

    So to confirm, just because the fraud is complete and certified, it’s over? Is that how all things work with Democrats? They just proclaim “I’m now a man” and everyone nods in agreement?

    I prefer to wait and see. Trump has pulled off the impossible before.

    #1929103
    chash
    Participant

    @Kollelman
    The problem with you always Trumpers is expressed in your last statement. You attribute all sorts of abilities to Trump, that arent true.
    I still remember the guys who would say, every time Trump did something dumb, that its all a ploy and he is doing it because he understands the media and blah blah.

    I also wanted Trump to win, I think he is a better man and has, by far, done better things than what i expect from biden.
    But I do take a certain solace in his loss. Apparently, acting like an insufferable jerk, arrogant and childish, is still distasteful to the American public. Irrespective of the other parties, less-visible flaws.

    And to the point you bring in your comment, I am all for waiting and seeing, yet I would note that every INDEPENDANT, HERETOFORE REASONABLE individual have all disregarded Trumps challenge to the results. These include as prominent as Bill Barr, and other TRUMP APPOINTED judges. You cannot go on yelling foul without a shred of CREDIBLE evidence. You would be no better than democrats asserting russian collusion.

    At this point, the continuation of the “stop the steal” movement can only be described as “less than rational”. I will have none of it.

    #1929124
    jackk
    Participant

    The best explanation that I have read for Always Trumpers still having constitutional and legal hope that Trump will win is that the media that serves them has made a policy decision based on financial gain.

    Any reasonable person knows that it is over for Trump and has been over since November.

    These websites/Cable channels know what their customers want to hear and therefore they stick with it as long as possible so that they can make money.

    (The fox news idiotic hosts and conservative radio commentators consider themselves entertainment and therefore couldn’t care less about truth or news.)

    This is the flip side of the accusations that the MSM media is biased.

    #1929119
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why should he give up now….his fundraising emails and texts (I get several daily) pleading with his chassidim to give just $5 or $10 to “stop the steal” is a gold mine. He is raking in tens of millions of dollars each week (90 percent of which goes to his personal PAC) and has NOTHING to do with paying Crazy Rudy or any other litigation expenses. He would be crazy to concede as long as this circus keeps paying big dividends. I’m also happy to see him bleeding his followers for their hard-earned bucks…perhaps when its over and they see how they’ve been fleeced, they might reconsider their support for him and the other Trumkopf waanaabees.

    #1929154
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I’m not too upset about the election outcome. Yes, Trump lost, but the Republicans gained seats in Congress. I believe Biden/Harris will be absolutely horrible. Historically, in the midterms, the opposition party (opposition to the Presidency) gains seats in Congress. I’m looking forward to a larger Red Wave than occurred in 2010. Then, I hope Nikki Haley decides to run in 2024.

    #1929213
    Participant
    Participant

    pretty dumb that everyone’s acting like the electoral college voting changed anything. if trump proves fraud it won’t matter what the college voted. if he doesn’t prove fraud, so then what changed? was anyone phoning their hopes on the Clintons8 to vote 4 trump and now conclude they didn’t?

    @Damoshe haley’s a republican…there are lots others. more conservative actually. oh. but she’s a woman.

    #1929320
    Health
    Participant

    Participant -“that everyone’s acting like the electoral college voting changed anything. if trump proves fraud it won’t matter what the college voted. if he doesn’t prove fraud, so then what changed?”

    There was Tons of Fraud.
    However I don’t know if that will change the Outcome of the election.
    Acc. to S. Powell it will, but her case wasn’t heard yet by SCOTUS!

    #1929337
    Participant
    Participant

    how do you know there was fraud?

    #1929472
    ujm
    Participant

    The far lady won’t be singing until January 6.

    But it’ll be kol isha to listen.

    #1929498
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Participant: I like Haley for a few reasons. Most notably, I thought she did an excellent job as UN Ambassador. She is probably the only Trump appointee who is well-liked even by many Democrats. I think she has the best chance of winning.

    #1929572
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Participant

    “pretty dumb that everyone’s acting like the electoral college voting changed anything. ”

    You need a crash course in civics.
    In the Unite States we dont vote for President we vote for electors. The outcome of that election was originally in dispute

    The electoral college, the group that chooses the President elected Joe Biden. This is not in dispute.
    all that is left is for Congress to formally count the vote.

    Keep in mind the appointment of electors is up to the states. In theory a state can appoint eelctors for whomever they want regardless of outcome of state vote, in fact there is a movement that many states signed too to give all the states electors to the winner of the national popular vote., regardless of who won the state.

    Now it is theoretically possible for congressmen to slow things down make trouble etc. But to say “pretty dumb that everyone’s acting like the electoral college voting changed anything.” (I assume you include Mitch Mcconell who congratulated biden after electoral colege win)
    shows a profound lack of understanding of elementary US civics

    #1929587
    ujm
    Participant

    Don’t forget that for EACH objection in the joint session of Congress on January 6 made by one congressman and one senator, Congress needs to debate (separately in the House and in the Senate) two hours over each objection. And then the two chambers need to reconvene the joint session.

    And there are 51 slates of electors. And there are 538 actual electors. An objection can be made against each of the 51 slates. That’s 2 hours (plus additional administrative time to reconvene) times 51. Meaning well over a hundred hours of debating time and 51 times to regather.

    Furthermore, (buckle your seatbelts) a congressman and senator can object INDIVIDUALLY against each of the 538 electors purported vote. That’s 538×2=1,076 hours of debate plus 538 times for the two houses of Congress to reconvene.

    In short, one congressman and one senator can delay proceedings past January 20th.

    Oh, and there’s a serious constitutional debate whether a non-member of the Executive Branch can become Acting President. The constitution says no even though the presidential succession act says yes. If the Attorney General rules the act is unconstitutional, then (is your seatbelts still buckled?) Secretary of State Mike Pompeo becomes Acting President in the absence of Congress confirming a winner of the presidential election (electoral college).

    Alternatively, the Senate could have a contingency election for Vice President and elect Michael Pence. In which case he’ll become president in the absence of Congress declaring a winner of the electoral college. Because Republicans would also win a contingency election for president in the House, since Republicans control a majority of state delegations. So Pelosi would surely refuse to hold à contingency election in the House that Trump could win.

    #1929607
    johnklets
    Participant

    Common Shaichel tell me whats bothering you; if it is over it is over, so why sitting here and blow a horn ? its over and lets go back to bussiness and give another the one the freedom to think that it is not over, whats this dictating others peoples mind ?

    And in my opinion Trump has also the right to continue claim fraud. He is not acting against the law and he is going to leave the White House by time willingly, but why should he not claim fraud and even ask for a investigation ? The Common Shaichel and the senses of taste and smell say that there was big fraud in this election, there is not ENOUGH PROOF for the courts for numbers to overturn the elections, but the proof that there is is enough to understand and imagine how much more fraud there was, and there would have been nothing wrong for lawmakers or courts to make a historical decision for a reelection in some states, but no one was there to take the call because of fair from the media and the chaos it would bring, and that shows exactly how much of Democracy we have in the U.S. so kol tuv, its indeed over, lets continue a freilichn chanuke

    #1929623
    Participant
    Participant

    ubiq you’re a cool one just don’t cut my paragraph in half in order to preach to me.

    #1929624
    charliehall
    Participant

    “The constitution says no”

    No it doesn’t. Pelosi becomes President under your scenario and there will be no Vice President.

    #1929625
    charliehall
    Participant

    “how much more fraud there was”

    So far there is no evidence of any.

    #1929626
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    ujm – 3 USC 15, can’t allow objections to gum up the works so that a President is not elected, since that would violate the constitutional directive under the 12th amendment to count the votes. Basically, if the scenario you suggest were attempted it would end up in court and be ruled unconstitutional and the counting would proceed pretty quickly.

    #1929631
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ujm, since the president and vice president are in question, the speaker of the house would become temporary president.

    #1929647
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie,-“So far there is no evidence of any”

    The case to SCOTUS hasn’t come up yet!
    There will be.

    #1929655
    ujm
    Participant

    CharlieHall: You’re a terrific virologist but (wadr) a poor constitutional scholar. There is a powerful argument that the Succession Act’s placement of the speaker in the line of presidential succession (and after her, the president pro tempore of the Senate) is contrary to the Constitution’s Succession Clause. That clause states that only an “Officer” may succeed and act as president. Most of the pertinent commentary maintains that the term “Officer” here does not include members of Congress. As such, Pelosi could not constitutionally “act as President,” even though the statute says she can.

    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo (the executive officer next in line under the statute) can declare himself acting president on the basis of a legal opinion from the Attorney General proclaiming legislative succession to the presidency unconstitutional.

    Furthermore, as I mentioned, to preclude even getting to the above scenario (that I described in my previous comment) the Senate before January 20 could have a contingency election for Vice President and elect Michael Pence. Then Pence would remain vice president after Trump’ term ended at noon January 20 and Pence would precede all other persons in assuming the presidency.

    #1929656
    ujm
    Participant

    ENS: This process is Constitutionally exclusively in the domain of the legislative branch (Congress) and not the judicial branch. As such, the Supreme Court would rightfully rule that the courts can play no part in the process. And that the courts cannot order Congress, a coequal branch, in how to act. No court has ever ordered Congress to take any specific action.

    #1929674
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    participant

    “ubiq you’re a cool one just don’t cut my paragraph in half in order to preach to me.”
    no preaching, just explaining

    The second half of your paragraph doesnt make your incorrect statement true. Yo uwrote “if trump proves fraud it won’t matter what the college voted. if he doesn’t prove fraud, so then what changed? was anyone phoning their hopes on the Clintons8 to vote 4 trump and now conclude they didn’t?”

    This is of course incorrect. It doesnt matter. IF I voted for Trump becaue he promised He would build a wall and mexico would pay for it. Turns out I was duped. anything I can do about it? No. The eelctoral college is not much different. They voted the votes were certified. PEriod end of story

    Of course if it turns out there WAS fraud Republicans would make a ruckus in congress (as they should) but that won’t chaneg the electoral college vote that already took place.

    So this statment “pretty dumb that everyone’s acting like the electoral college voting changed anything. ” remains wrong.
    and again. to be clear, are you saying McConnell is dumb?

    #1929693

    would this work?
    Trump runs for Congress in 2022 (from Florida?)
    becomes Speaker of the House
    impeach/convict big guy and VP at the same time
    Trump is President by June 2023

    #1930189
    Participant
    Participant

    ubiq it still has to be counted and ratified by congress. if there’s proven fraud, they won’t .

    you make it sound like u asked me about Mitch before…answer: yes it was dumb of him and Putin and op and others.

    #1930208
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    participant

    “ubiq it still has to be counted and ratified by congress. if there’s proven fraud, they won’t .”

    Yes, As Ive said.

    But it shows a profound lack of understanding of basic US civics to think it is “dumb” to assert that the electroal college changed anything

    “you make it sound like u asked me about Mitch before…answer: yes it was dumb of him and Putin and op and others.”

    Yes I mentioned Mcconell in my first comment on this thread (its still there have a look)
    And iI hate Mitch Mconell as much as the next guy, but if you think he doesn’t understand the electoral system as well as you, well then you shouldnt call others dumb

    #1930222
    Participant
    Participant

    I have such a hard time making heads or tails 5of u, ubiq. 1

    yes you mentioned, very briefly, that congress has to count it yet you cling to this fallacy that the electoral college finalized it’s . so you’re flabbergasting. I stand with my comment that nothing changed.

    next do I have to8explain 2 u the dif btwn mentioning 6and asking? go read your post that’s still there. you didn’t ask anything.

    oh yeah, sorry for offending Mitch.

    #1930236
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Participant

    ” it yet you cling to this fallacy that the electoral college finalized ”

    nope, you have me confused with someone else inever said it finalized anything . In fact in my first comment I explicitly said the opposite “all that is left is for Congress to formally count the vote….Now it is theoretically possible for congressmen to slow things down make trouble etc”

    ” I stand with my comment that nothing changed.”
    I know you do, but it was and is wrong.

    Make no mistake there are those who will say nothing has changed Jan 6, there will be those who say the same Jan 20

    “oh yeah, sorry for offending Mitch.”
    The opposite! I cant stand the guy You should insult him, was the most correct comment youve made in this thread . but it is silly to say he doesn’t understand the electoral process

    #1930269
    Participant
    Participant

    omg ubiq I commented on the op’s fallacy that ‘the fat lady sung’ . I said nothing changed (unless someone was pinning their hopes on electoral college voting 4 don) . you disagreed, said something did Change (obviously with the intention of upholding op’s claim that fat lady sung). in short u are clinging to that fallacy .

    if u can honestly tell me you just didn’t like that I said ‘nothing6changed’ when legally something changed6, or procession-wise something changed then get over it . I used ‘nothing changed’ to mean ‘nothing final changed’ or even got closer to the finalization. which it didn’t . so stop it.

    #1930270
    Health
    Participant

    Participant -“how do you know there was fraud?” “ubiq it still has to be counted and ratified by congress. if there’s proven fraud, they won’t .””Acc. to S. Powell it will, but her case wasn’t heard yet by SCOTUS!”

    They won’t ratify it in Congress because S. Powell will present evidence in SCOTUS – that Biden didn’t win in the Electoral college!

    #1930282
    a pashute yid
    Participant

    Where did commomn saychel all the sudden disapear too?
    Almost every single person who wrote to this column made a prediction what is going to happen regarding the presidency. Yet for some strange reason there their all different. Why in the world would someone make a prediction where chances are he will be wrong.

    #1930285
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Participant

    ” I said nothing changed”

    Yes you said that, and you said it was “dumb” to say otherwise. Of course you werent correct. As it isnt the people who elect PResident in the US the people vote for electors who elect the PResident.

    Until the electoral college voted Some were hoping court cases would direct states to appoint electors one wasy or the other, some hoped votes would be discounted, some hoped there would be faithless eelctors.

    All those ships have sailed.

    Now some hope Congress will do something, Some are banking on an imaginary Supreme court case some hope Trump willl declare martial law there are all sorts of hopes dreams people have, as time moves on these dreams will fall by the wayside one by one.

    ” I used ‘nothing changed’ to mean ‘nothing final changed”
    This is correct. As no it isn’t final (and in the mind of some Trump voters it wont be until Trump dies they believe he will lead a group of army loyalists to take “back” the White house, I’ll bet there will be some who still hold on to that hope after Trump dies)

    “or even got closer to the finalization”
    This is obviously wrong

    Please let me know if you have any more questions, or need any of the above explained.

    #1930293
    Participant
    Participant

    omg ubiq are you purposely stopping midway my posts or are you really severely dumb? I mentioned faithless voters in 2 separate posts. and nixed it . 1regarding courts directing states or discounting votes that was all depending trump could prove fraud. otherwise there was never such a hope. and if he does prove fraud, it ain’t yet over. congress will discredit Biden’s win instead of the courts directions.

    #1930304
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    UJM – but then 3 USC 15 is not functional if the court has no say in it. Congress has an obligation to count the votes and if they don’t do their duty they are not a functioning congress anymore and arguably the republic has ended. The Constitution would no longer be relevant and frankly anyone can seize power as long as they have the support to enforce it. Whomever is on the losing side can be called a traitor and can be hanged. Sounds great.

    #1930305
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    This whole thing is nonsense. If the Republicans are going to try to undermine the counting of the electoral votes then the Democrats can decide that only Democrats won elections for the House. This way they can perpetually ensure that Democrats control the House and the President is a Democrat.

    #1930315
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Pparticipant
    he cant prove fraud

    There is a spectrum of how long people are willing to hold on to the fantasy that he can. some gave it until the Electoral college (a reaosnable benchmark as outlined above) others are giving it until Jan 6 still others until JAN 20. others even after that.

    “I mentioned faithless voters in 2 separate posts”

    I guess I’m dumb and blind, but I don’t see it (I guess thats what you meant by Clinton reference , not sure whay you mean by “nixed it”

    “1regarding courts directing states or discounting votes that was all depending trump could prove fraud.”

    He can’t. period. there is no otherwise, its imaginary. Some were holding out hope. If Trump could have he would have. He isnt biding his time for a good opportunity

    ” and if he does prove fraud, it ain’t yet over. congress will discredit Biden’s win instead of the courts directions”

    Yes obviously. but he won’t Thus it is over .

    Hypothetically:
    LEts say Trump knew there was never any fraud and Just made allegations to rile his base/save face/cheat them out of money for “legal fees”
    with me?

    now until the electoral college voted there was a tiny bit of hope maybe a state legislature would direct electors one way or another. Maybe some faithless electors would jump ship.
    Maybe maybe there was enough questions that a judge woudl disqualify some votes.

    All of these ships have sailed (if there was evidence theyd have shown it in one of the 60 or so cases they’ve had)

    These ships have sailed.

    I’m not sure why you are getting all bent out of shape . you said
    “pretty dumb that everyone’s acting like the electoral college voting changed anything”

    This was obviously a dumb statement. you dont need to bend yourself into a pretzel to defend it. big deal we all say silly things from tiem to time .
    A simple, “yes obviously the Electoral college is what counts, thanks ubiq for taking the time to point it out” is an easy way to save face

    #1930352
    ujm
    Participant

    ENS: Using your logic Republicans can decide that only Republicans won elections for the Senate. This way they can perpetually ensure that Republicans control the Senate.

    In any event, controlling the House doesn’t in any way permit Democrats to decide who is President. The Republicans control a majority of state delegations in the House.

    3 USC 15 isn’t legally enforceable in court.

    #1930681
    Participant
    Participant

    omg u briq thanx 4 admitting you’re dumb. you even make trump look like a genius. for the last time I’ll try to explain it. hopefully I’m talented enough to dumb it down to your idiotic level.

    to start, let’s make sure you have the background. trump lost the 2020 election, however he has claimed there was fraud in the election and therefore the results should be changed. that is why some consider or considered the election results unfinalized. it’s on that note that op said the fat lady has sung. in 2016, 2012, and 2008 nobody started a thread when the electoral college voted that the fat lady sung. since the electoral college is assumed to vote for whoever won, the matter is considered finalized even before the electoral college votes. the loser has always conceded before the electoral college voted.
    the reason op started such a thread is because of the people who did not consider the election finalized. because they were still hoping fraud would be proven. thus after the electoral college voted op decided the matter was closed to all discussion and said she sung. because he considered all fraud hopes to be shattered finally, with the electoral colleges vote.

    to which I, a lone voice of sanity, pointed out was false and dumb. if trump proves fraud it still ain’t over. the only thing
    that may have been finalized was electors faithfulness, which I said -unless people were pinning their hopes on the Clintons voting 4 trump. it was stating the obvious– no one was dreaming that would happen. and none of the other electors, either. since no one sane was expecting that-all the talk had been about fraud-nothing was finalized.

    now lets respond to your latest garbage. all quotes are imprecise.

    -‘there was no fraud. period. ‘ so with your knowledge (or faith) that there was no fraud, the fat lady sung I long time ago. ever since all results were in. not as of the electoral college’s voting. unless, of course you were dumb enough to wonder if there would be faithfulness.

    ‘trump claimed there would be fraud. there were various deadlines for him to present it…some said until the electoral college voted’.
    I’m well aware. their names are McConnell, Putin, and op. and others. and its this arbitrary deadline exactly that I said is dumb. and I still say so.

    ‘some may never accept trump’s loss’
    not sure how this comes in .

    ‘so thank of for stating something every 7th grader knows-the electoral college votes the prez in.’
    no.

    now thank me for taking the time & considerable effort to dumb it down to u. then quickly run to the nearest brain surgeon and beg him for help.

    #1936186
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    NOW ITS REALLY OVER!!
    what a jerk, he could have gone out with dignity instead left a blemish in the history.
    Got to hand it to Mike Pence there is someone with class who had no qualms about telling the truth.

    #1936189
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I felt that way as well.

    If only they would have peacefully torched cities and looted stores instead it could have gone unnoticed.

    #1936190
    johnklets
    Participant

    Look like the fat lady did not do her diet well…, ? Wait and see, Donald Trump will be missed by a lot of people who will recognize what he did for America, and a lot of people will regret voting him out of office, just give it a couple of months…,

    #1936197
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Good riiddance to bad rubbish who encoraged insurrection for his own interest.

    #1936202
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    participant

    Have you had time to look into how the electoral college works?

    As Pence correctly said yesterday there was nothing left for him to do but certify. sure some raised objections but there was no doubt that there was 0 % chance of any objection getting through one house let alone both

    “now lets respond to your latest garbage. all quotes are imprecise.”
    Being imprecise is your specialty. nothing you said on this thread was precise or factual.

    Let me guess it still isn’t over , you think Trump might still win.
    You may note since Dec 15 when The OP correctly said it was over nothing changed vis a vis fraud allegations . There were no significant court cases there were no new allegations. Just the same old same old. sure a bunch of loons thought (think?) there is secret evidence that Trump was saving for some heroic showdown. but most realized that if he had anything he would have shown it long long ago.

    So while some were holding out something would materialize. all intelligent people new nothing would.
    I wonder if now with the benefit of hindsight you see that it was over Dec 15 when all court cases where settled and the electoral college voted .

    If you dont see that, thats fine too.

    “There is a spectrum of how long people are willing to hold on to the fantasy that he can. some gave it until the Electoral college (a reasonable benchmark as outlined above) others are giving it until Jan 6 still others until JAN 20. others even after that.”

    so which camp are you in?
    Is it STILL not over?

    #1936213
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Common Saychel: While I respect much of your offerings here, I think the biggest mistake many of us made over the past 4 years was to somehow expect that once elected President, there would be a “pivot” towards civility and normalcy, that NEVER came. This guy was always a vile, narcissistic bully in his business dealings were never conducted with “respect’ or in accordance with commercial “norms”. He is going out the same way he went in, and a lot of us (myself included) were fools for believing in some “pivot” that never came. Indeed, I will leave it to those with professional training as to whether the Oval Office actually worsened an already self-destructive downward spiral.

    #1936226
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @johnklets, exactly my point, he was the best president for Israel, the economy etc, he could have left with dignity instead he had instigate his people to rush the Congress, we all lost yesterday, Trump, GOP, America. If someone is such a narcissit to allow this it causes a blemish on the Oval Office.

    #1936232
    huju
    Participant

    To johnklets: Yes, some people will miss Trump. They demonstrated their mindless loyalty to him – not the US constitution or law or civility – by assaulting the US Capitol yesterday. Do you think yesterday’s insurrection, as Senator Mitch McConnell (Senate Republican leader) called it, is good for America? Good for Israel? Good for the Jews?

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