The final word on Moshiach from the meisim (hopefully!)

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  • #2222459
    CS
    Participant

    Btw a second coming is just a Christian as the idea of moshiach itself- ie it’s a Jewish idea too. Sorry you haven’t seen it. Rashi on Daniel, and also Medrash on how moshiach will resemble the goel rishon Moshe Rabbeinu, by first being revealed, then concealed, then revealed again. If you want exact lshonos I quoted them early on in the 5 potential candidates thread.

    The Rebbe also wrote in reshimos about Eliyahu hanavi (why should we expect moshiach daily if Eliyahu hasn’t come yet) we don’t know if he’ll come in the first stage of moshiach (when he’s revealed to those that know him) or the third stage- when he’s revealed to all. (Middle stage I think was fighting the wars of Hashem- don’t trust me, find and post it- haven’t seen it in over a decade i think)

    #2222466
    5783
    Participant

    @any there can only be one person who is בחזקת משיח

    #2222467
    CS
    Participant

    Yankel Berel- I think Chabad lost face when they u turned on the Rebbe being moshiach- because Moshiach has to be from the living. As they said then. That did seem the straight path forward. However, Hashem has a different path in mind, and we are where we are now. We still believe the Rebbe has a good reason to tell us all these Moshiach hints- even if the straightforward path was the other way. We also know that (remind me the source) it will be a test to believe in moshiach it will be like holding onto a flimsy rope- and towards the end the rope will be shaken. But we’re also prepared. We’re devoted heart and soul to The Rebbe, but our Rebbe had no life other than serving Hashem, and klal Yisrael. So we’re not giving The Rebbe any more than he gave us for sure- and much less. An arrogant person comes across as arrogant- and people dislike arrogant people. If our Rebbe felt the need to tell us these Moshiach secret stuff, it was only there to benefit our Avodas Hashem, and bring moshiach much closer, since the geula is more tangible to us who live by The Rebbes teachings, than ever.

    Many Chassidim were uncomfortable with the intensifying moshiach sichos- we already have much to be proud of, and we didn’t want to become laughingstocks. But The Rebbe guided us towards our mission and let us with the keys.

    That’s my bottom line. Also that I heard on this form that to think The Rebbe is moshiach is kefira etc. so I spent time doing my due diligence in learning and researching the topic. You can find my posts with sources in the 5 potential candidates thread.

    #2222477
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To any
    You’re all over the place when you write so let me clarify the subject for the group. The first time I heard the about the Chafetz Chaim’s Psak was in 1995 from a Lubavicher. I then verified it wirh one of my Rabbonim. A few months ago I was xenating this subject on a diffetent site and I .mentioned what the Chafetz Chaim said. A Lubavucher challenged it but I told him to ask around. He did and confirmed what I said(I still have ‘t actually seen the Psak.) Anyway that Lubavicher then decided that the Rebbe necame Moshiach before he died and he’ll return someday to finish the job. All I asked you is how many Lubavichers agree woth you and how many with that guy? My other queztion is why you guys are so obsessed with the subject?

    Can you please tone it down

    #2222489
    CS
    Participant

    Just to add that in addition to my own research I checked with three respected Torah voices within Chabad (2 Rabbanim, 1 RY) 1 more meshichist, 1 decidedly not (less), and one towards the middle.

    #2222494
    CS
    Participant

    *left

    #2222495
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @querty613 looking forward to you posting the mkor that you just said your rabbi who you are in touch with is familiar with.

    I look forward to seeing the exact mkor quoted. By chance is it in the tiferes Odom?

    #2222501
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    I understand your plight. You realize that your beliefs are ridiculousbut you feel that you can’t betray your Rebbe. I can’t tell you what to do, but at some point the truth will stare you in the face and you’ll have to accept it.

    #2222499
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To moderator

    You’re asking me to tone down my rhetoric, but “any” makes baseless accusations against me. If you’ve learned one thing about me from this and other posts, I don’t lie.

    You are being asked to stop the personal attacks. As in ‘you are just a …’ as opposed to ‘your opinion is….’

    #2222514
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To any

    I’ll repeat. I heard this psak from others so I can’t quote where it cimes from. If you don’t want to believe it exists that’s your call but I’m sure that your vaunted Mechaber can shed light on this matter. I highly doubt that three peoe two of whom are Chabad would make that up.

    #2222520
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To any

    I told you more than once that I didn’t see his Psak. I’m relyi.g on the word of others. If you want to know whether such a psak exits just ask the Mechaber. Look to me it’s totally irrelevant. Thete’s no reason to think that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

    #2222542
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To any

    I have another question, “Why is it so important for you to co vince others that the Rebbe will have a second cing?” I believe in Hashem. I feel no need to push my beliefs on anyo e else. The difference between us is that I have true belief in Hashem, but you don’t really believe that the Rebbe will retjrn and so you need affirmation.

    #2222550
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @querty613 I indulged you. I emailed the mechaber. He said being all of Chazal say Moshiach can come from the living or meisim, but it was a sofek to the amorayim if in actuality Moshiach will come from the living or meisim. Therefore it’s not shayach b’metzius for a Rishon, acharon or posek halacha to be machria davka only from the living or davka from the meisim. Similar to zachu or loi zachu. All Chazal agree it could be either one. Which one b’poel. We don’t know….

    Therefore it’s not possible and even am aratzus to say someone poskened one way or another….
    He said you can download another Kuntres from his website shmoishelmoshiach dot com where he wrote at length about that subject as it relates to the Rambam.

    So again back to the yotzi min hklal of “kol hasam kozev”

    Provide the mkor by asking your rabbi or rabbis or publicly apologize.

    Since you are talking about the chofetz chaim it’s the time of year to remind that he says those who are not able to keep pas yisroel should be makpid during the aseres yemai teshuva. Unless of course you have another posek you follow…..

    #2222559
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To any

    Ok I agree that Moshiach can come from the dead. Can we now end this thread?

    #2222560
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @querty613 you are the one who is obsessed with the Rebbe being thought of as Moshiach. Again according to Chazal anyone from the living and anyone from the meisim can be Moshiach for as long as he is considered fit to be Moshiach…. As is proved from Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach…. Time to move on and actually actualize your profound belief and love in Hashem and translate that into ahavas hatorah and ahavas yisroel and stop the sinas chinam, slander and sophistry.

    #2222561
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    Dear moderators please can you unequivocally state Judaism does not believe in a second coming or sinas chinam.

    If you could also find this pertinent mkor from the chofetz chaim that @querty613 has heard about so much from so many people including a minyan of lubavitchers that will be greatly appreciated as a mkor would be a refreshing change.

    #2222582
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Chabad will never understand, that even if the Melech HaMashiach came from the dead, it could be any of these great tzadikim, all of which were descendants of David HaMelech:

    KING SOLOMON
    KING HEZEKIAH
    ISAIAH THE PROPHET
    KING JOSIAH
    RABBENU HAKODESH (COMPILER OF THE MISHNAH)
    RABBI ELIEZER HASANDLAR (FROM TALMUD).
    MAHARAL OF PRAGUE
    RABBI ELIMELECH OF LIHZENSK
    MANY OTHERS

    In other words, proving Melech HaMashiach from the dead does NOT prove that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Melech HaMashiach — far from it.

    Additionally, Chabad is NOT debating in good faith.
    They are not searching for the truth about the Melech HaMashiach;
    they just want to “win” by any means possible.

    I cannot remember even ONE person from Chabad who believed in Melech HaMashiach from the dead, when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was alive and healthy — only AFTER he died, did Melech HaMashiach from the dead become popular with Chabad!

    #2222584
    yankel berel
    Participant

    sinas chinam has no place here ,
    criticism of habad theology re mashiach is perfectly legit and has no connection to sinas chinam at all .

    #2222585
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    they lost face at the time of their first uturn . After years of strenuously accusing those who said that habad is [secretly] promoting their rebbi as mashiach . They accused them of sinas chinam [sounds familiar ..].
    It was all one big libel against them .
    They even mobilised all other hasidim to defend them against those ‘haters’ , who accused them of this blood libel , as if they want to promote their rebbi as mashiach .
    Then they made a [huge] uturn, discrediting themselves .
    Acknowledging their own rebbi’s messiahship.
    And in the process , give huge credence to those so called ‘haters’ , who were busy with so called sinas chinam ……
    That was only uturn number one ……

    #2222596
    yankel berel
    Participant

    CS s post reveal the goodness of the yiddishe neshama .
    .
    Such mesirut for his leader , but so sorely misguided .
    .
    Such temimut and ratson for the good , but so manipulated .
    .
    A true cause for tsa’ar .
    .
    Real tsa’ar.
    .
    The face of the true tragedy – the face of misguided habad theology …..
    .

    #2222923
    CS
    Participant

    Yankel Berel I appreciate the sentiment of ahavas Yisrael behind your last post, and therefore I wish you (and whoever else wishes) to enjoy life the way I do (if you don’t already): to live with Menuchas hanefesh (regardless of menuchas haguf), menuchas haguf, that learning Torah should be your main enjoyment in life along with doing mitzvos bhiddur (in different ways but both deeply joyful- so that you want to find more ways to keep mitzvos bhiddur, that you be engaged all day in activities that give Hashem nachas, and have Him in mind no matter what the activity, that your children outsurpass you with their (serious) goals in Avodas Hashem at a young age, and that you feel a palpable excitement for Yiddishkeit to the point that anything else is beyond worthless, and finally that you aim to and get the most out of golus avoda, while preparing yourself and others for the Geula Shleima. All in a spirit of simcha. Ksiva Vachasima tova lshana tova umesuka!

    #2222991
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @cs
    Amen
    vechen lemar
    from this post of yours I see that my previous post was not misplaced
    thanks
    .
    btw this is proof that criticism of modern habad is NOT sin’at chinam . Not at all .

    #2223046
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To yankel berel

    I get the sense that CS recognizes the truth, but he feels that he can’t betray his religion.

    #2223237
    yankel berel
    Participant

    hello ?

    #2223285
    CS
    Participant

    Just to give context to my last post (for those who don’t get subtlety)

    A) I wanted to express goodwill
    B) I wanted to show the pity/ sympathy is misplaced

    Reason:
    A) I believe the Chabad questioners here are coming from a good place (they believe they’re defending Hashem’s honor/ Yiddishkeit’s integrity) and I appreciate that. There’sa story of R Adam Baal Shem who was given great honor when he was anonymous because of his geonus etc, but when his identity was found out, there were misnagdim who were ready to attack him with stones. He said that the stones were more precious to him than the honor the day before.

    Likewise… people here are uneducated on Chabad (you need to get into The Rebbe’s Torah and hear from people who actually interacted with him to assess properly) but I’m glad they care about Torah and yiddishkeit so I wish them all the brachos.

    B) I’m living up life bH (as expressed in the specific Brachos shared- (besides for menuchas haguf which is completely out of my control- but I don’t worry about it either…) and I don’t need the pity. I wish everyone was
    living such a life if not better…

    Ps. I’m a truth seeker and as noted did my research Prus asked Rabbanim etc on this issue, so that’s that. Ive examined everything mentioned and found one incorrect practice in my surroundings which I have recently asked my colleagues to correct. If something stands between me and Hashem, I give it up. There’s no torn etc

    #2223364
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    You come off as a decent fellow so I’ll share this with you. Chaim Miller wrote an English translation of the Tanya. In the foreword he spoke about the dispute between Chasidim and Misnagdim. He quoted the Gaon as saying that the Chassidim had to be dri ven out. He did say that. Then he cited a private letter from the Alter Rebbe which stated that the Gaon’s rhetoric caused the blood of Chassidim to flow like water. There are two problems with this. First, there were no dwaths at that time. Second, if there were deaths then lives would have been lost on both sides so why would the Baal Hatanya only specify Chassidim? Do you think he didn’t value the lives of all Jews. I brought this to my Rov’s attention. He told me that this letter was part of the Kherson forgeries. He explaoned, some time after the Alter Rebbe died his Chassidim forged his signature on documents that were slanderous lies aimed at defaming the Gaon. If you’re really a person of truth talk to someone about what I’ve written. edited

    #2223513
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty
    Interesting. I do know that 4 Chabad Chassidim were beaten to death by misnagdim in sventzian (see the making of Chassidim). The Berditchover and R shmelke and others were also majorly persecuted.

    There were no retaliations as far as I know. In fact, the Alter Rebbe famously wrote about not even whistling back after he was released (he was put in jail by misnagdim.)

    #2223527
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    I’m impressed by your response. You are, as you said, a person looking for truth. Most people, not just Lubavichers, go into defense mode when someone introduces an alien thought. That you’re willing to explore what I told you is a positive sign. I don’t question that there was very bad blood between the two sides but I’m sure the Chassidim were not innocent bystanders either. That they could forge a letter in the name of their godol to malign the Litvish’s world leading light is appalling. And the fact that 200 years later these lies are still accepted by Lubavichers is shocking.

    #2223549

    > Gaon’s rhetoric caused the blood of Chassidim to flow like water.

    I don’t know whether this was a forgery or not, but blood (on both sides) might be referring to attempts to appeal to Russian authorities who used such reports to clump down on both sides. Alter Rebbe was not whistling back, except lamenting of a “torture” of being released into a misnagdish home after being released from the prison.

    #2223612
    yankel berel
    Participant

    They say that the first mesirah in vilna was from the hasidi ‘s side . As the Kahal belonged to the mitnagdim since they won the elections [that was in the beginning] . And the hasidim were the underdog ,and suffered under the kahal . So the hasidim ran to the government . So as reaction the mitnagdim also ran to the government . Thats how the baal hatanya ended up in jail .
    Cannot vouch , however, for the accuracy of this chain of events .
    Be it as it may , this is only history and b’h totally irrelevant nowadays .
    .
    Since then we had many generations of hasidim and non hasidim living side by side in harmony , and even many times fruitfully cooperating for the common good .
    .
    Any arguments about modern habad theology is a totally different issue and not connected to this historical saga.

    #2223637
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To Always

    Yes I’m familiar with what the Baal Hatanya allegedly said about Notkin but here’s my point. First off we have to realize that thete are the Kherson forgeries which means that we can’t be sure that quotes attributed to the Alter Rebbe were actually said by him. In fact it makes no sense that he publicly insulted Notkin because that’s Loshon Hora and I highly doubt that such a Tzaddik would ever speak loshon hora. But even if we dismiss the Kherson forgeries as a snag lie the question is why Chabad continues to teach its minions this period of history. I’m close to many Chassidim and it means nothing to them. Their families were
    wiped out by the Holocaust so they’re going to care that their alter Zeides were spit on?. I went to a Chassidishe yeshiva for the first 4 grades and Litvish for the last 8 and I never heard of those fights. I learned about it in college in a Judaic studies class. It’s time for Lubavichers to put that part of their past away. It does nothing but sow hatred.

    #2223679
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group
    As usual yankel berel is absolutely correct that the original hostilities are completely irrelevant to the current situation. I would however like to share a story. About. 40 years ago I worked for an insurance company and there was an English underwriter named Jack Scott. One day he came over to me to complain about his co workers who went on about the Holocaust. He told me that he was confiding in me because I was the only Jew at the firm who didn’t discuss it. I realized then how stupid it is to teach Holicaust studies to goyim. The point is that it makes no sense for Lubavichers to teach their children and students about that period. As Jack Scott said, “Get over it already.”

    #2223737
    Lostspark
    Participant

    QWERTY….. yawn….

    Aren’t you bored of this yet?

    #2223745
    ARSo
    Participant

    Can someone cite for me the first source for the celebration of 20 Kislev being due to the Baal Hatanya being taken to the misnaged’s house?

    It seems so strange – according to the story he said that the hours he spent in the misnaged’s house were worse than the entire time he spent in prison – to have a MAJOR celebration based on that. Furthermore, it seems so out-of-sync with today’s Lubavich and their claimed love of every Yid.

    #2223756
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty thanks for the compliment.
    Honestly I haven’t heard of the Kherson forgeries and I’m not too interested in looking them up because it’s mainly irrelevant to my life today. I’ll keep it in mind though if someone does bring it up. Recently I bought a book and then heard that it wasn’t100% accurate. I’m a bit annoyed because I only want truthful books in my house and now I don’t know what’s true and what’s not. And it was a gift… generally, within Chabad historical stories are taken very seriously as far as being careful with accuracy so if this matter would come up, I’d have to look into it to see if your assertion is correct.

    Regarding AAQs comment, the Alter Rebbe didnt sneer this back at the misnagdim, he merely confided to Chassidim that having a fellow Jew interrogated him over Chassidus etc, was more painful than all the time in jail. That is understandable. He was a person who didn’t care for gashmius as much as things that were nogeia l nefesh

    Now, in lubavitch we learn that in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek already, there was peace between the Chassidim and misnagdim

    #2223838
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    I don’t make assertions. Like anyone else I read as much as I can find and then I try to use my truthometer to decide what I should accept. Every source material will have inaccuracies, the issue is whether those inaccuracies are intentional. In any event I like you and I don’t say anything I don’t mean. Let’s see if we can continue this dialogue.

    To ARSo

    I spoke about Notkin to my Chabad Rabbi. I asked him how, if the story is true, the Baal Hatanya could speak such blatant Loshon hora. His answer, there was a Toeles in telling his Chassidim about Notkin. Notkin offered the Rebbe tea that day and the Rebbe drank it so the Baal.Hatanya was teaching his Chassidim that even if you’re abused by your host you shpuld accept whst he offers. The my froend added that he just made that up.This story, like most Chabad stories is aimed at advancing their agenda.

    #2223864
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To lostspark

    I know how much you enjoy my writing and respect my opinions, C”V that I should stop and deprive you. Lol

    #2223873
    CS
    Participant

    Fair enough qwerty. Arso maybe you didn’t know the Tanya was printed for the first time on chof Kislev so that’s significant too? And it’s part of Yat Kislev because he was only fully freed then, similar to yud gimmel Tammuz for the Frierdiker Rebbe.

    #2223889
    sechel83
    Participant

    if anyone wants to understand why chabad says that the rebbe is moshiach, and not previous tzadikim, and wants a makor in rambam igeres techiyas hamasim that moshiach can be from the dead, why some chabad says the rebbe is still alive, and what that means, and more… search “the rebbe shlita melech hamoshiach” on you tube. there is a series of shiurim from a litvak – rabbi yosef gavriel bechhover – on this topic.

    #2223891
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    It was ARSo not .me who connected Notkin’s interrogation and cwlebrating the 20th of Kislev. I think ot’s just a guess on his part. I’d like, however, to focus on what you said Notkin’s interrogation of the Baal Hatanya. Interrogation? Was Notkin in the Gestapo? If the Alter Rebbe was uncomfortable he could have just walked out. This whole story mskes no sense to me and the simplest explanation is that it’s part of the Kherson lies.

    #2223938
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @ arso
    Can someone cite for me the first source for the celebration of 20 Kislev being due to the Baal Hatanya being taken to the misnaged’s house?

    It seems so strange – according to the story he said that the hours he spent in the misnaged’s house were worse than the entire time he spent in prison – to have a MAJOR celebration based on that. Furthermore, it seems so out-of-sync with today’s Lubavich and their claimed love of every Yid.
    ——-
    Question back – Re ahavat yisrael .

    Who does a habad hasid love more ? a mechalel shabbat [even shana upiresh] or a frum ‘mitnaged’ ?
    .

    #2223940
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty I directed that part of my part to Arso.

    Basically that part of the story is part of the mesora so to
    Speak of the retelling of what happened every year so it’s not forged…

    In any case, for context, the Alter Rebbe was still in petersberg when he was released (not home), he had given the soldiers the address of a chossid living in the city, where all the Chassidim were expecting him. The soldiers brought him there but to the downstairs apartment which belonged to a misnaged. The misnaged welcomed him in and gave him a cup of tea, but then started lecturing him for an hour over the changes he had made. He wasn’t interested in hearing a true answer, he just lectured the Alter Rebbe. Eventually the Chassidim realized what might have happened and went downstairs where they heard the misnaged yelling at the Alter Rebbe. The knocked/ banged on the door, he opened and said here’s your Rebbe, take him. The Alter Rebbe finished the tea that has been offered in honor of his host and then left.

    #2224012
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To sechel83

    Your latest attempt to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach reminds me of something that happened almost 50 years ago. My Organic Chemistry professor was Dr. Leon Gortler. He was brilliant, Harvard-educated, and a real mensch. He told me the following, “I can prove anything and the opposite of that thing.” His point was that if someone has expertise in a particular area he can prove whatever he chooses to prove. Yoshke’s disciples could “prove” that he was Moshiach and the same for Shabbetai Tzvi’s followers. None of these so-called proofs impress rational Torah-based Jews. But if you want to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach gezunterheit.

    #2224038
    CS
    Participant

    “ Who does a habad hasid love more ? a mechalel shabbat [even shana upiresh] or a frum ‘mitnaged’ ?”

    Ideally, we love every Jew equally, no matter what they do/ don’t, although that doesn’t mean we sanction their actions etc

    On a practical level- Chabad Chassidim feel closer ideologically to other frum Yidden, so therefore feel threatened by their attacks more (as I’m sure Vice versa). Therefore as a group we act more defensively when it comes to litvaks questioning us than a yid with pink hair and piercings etc

    #2224040
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS
    Thanks for your response. You write quite nicely and clearly but here’s the problem(s). Could the Baal Hatanya really have felt that an hour of harassment from this Misnagid was worse than 52 days in a Russian prison? Second, how could the Baal Hatanya, who was as close as possible to being a perfect Tzaddik, speak such blatant Loshon hora? The way one determines truth is by keeping an open mind. I’m stating that we learn from the Kherson forgeries that Lubavichers have a long history of changing stories to fit their agendas. Since you claim to be a person of truth that should be troubling to you. And I’m not insinuating that Chabad is the only organization that does this. I turned off from Rabbi Avigdor Miller because there were statements he made that were troublesome to me. How did I deal with this? I spoke to Rabbonim whose opinions I trust.The problem is that I highly doubt that you can find anyone reliable in Crown Heights to ask since everyone seems to be toeing the party line.

    #2224042
    ARSo
    Participant

    “there was a Toeles in telling his Chassidim about Notkin. Notkin offered the Rebbe tea that day and the Rebbe drank it so the Baal.Hatanya was teaching his Chassidim that even if you’re abused by your host you shpuld accept whst he offers.”

    What to’eles is there in telling the person’s name. Wouldn’t it have been enough – if the story is true – to say that he was in the house of someone who abused him?

    And from my reliable sources, that is the source of celebrating 20 Kislev. Not the printing of Tanya.

    #2224089
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    Sechel83 directed us to a YouTube video called, “The Rebbe shlita Melech Hamoshiach.” given by a Litvak named Rabbi Gavriel Bechofer. His implied message was that this clip would convince non Lubavichers that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Rabbi Bechofer, who is obviously a Talmid Chacham, said as follows, “According to Rambam it’s possible that Moshiach will come from the dead.” Now that’s not earth-shattering because he’s simply reiterating what the Gemara says. The Rabbi then added that this fact means nothing to anyone outside of Chabad because mainstream Judaism sees no reason why the Rebbe would be chosen to return from the dead over any number of Torah giants such as the Chasam Sofer, Rav Moshe, Rav Shlomo Zalman, you get the point. Thank you sechel83 for bringing this video to our attention as it only confirms what non-Lubavichers have been saying throughout this and all other threads on various sites. The Rebbe is no different than any other scholar who died. That Lubavichers believe otherwise is not worth trying to refute. We’ll apply this saying to Chabad, “Don’t confuse me with the facts my mind’s made up.”

    #2224144
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty-
    Yes the Alter Rebbes Neshama almost escaped his body (aka klos hanefesh) because he was happy to be moser nefesh for Chassidus (The ayeka story grounded him). His departed Rebbe and his Rebbe, ie the Maggid, and the Baal Shem Tov also visited him in jail. The physical hardships meant nothing to him. But to have a fellow Yid disparage Chassidus etc for an hour straight- that’s difficult!

    Arso- I never heard the misnageds name. Heading for the first time on this forum.

    Qwerty, As far as lashon hora, from what I’ve learned, if something happened in front of 3 people, it’s public and no longer lashon hara to repeat. In any case I never heard the name and that wasn’t the focus anyway…

    You may want to brush up on those halachos

    I never heard of the Kherson forgeries so I can’t comment there. There are haters who make things up as well. If you can send me a reliable source (accessible on the internet,) I’ll look into it at some point and then ask around if it looks legit.

    Some things I question people for years and look things up until I get a satisfactory answer;)

    #2224178
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    I took you at your word that you’re looking for the truth but I see that you’re going into Chabad defense mode. As I clearly explained, there are only two ways to understand the Notkin story. Either the Baal Hatanya spoke lishan hora, which is highly unlikely or the story is a lie. I don’t intend to discuss this any further, You’re free to believe what you want.

    #2224173
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    CS said: “Yes the Alter Rebbes Neshama almost escaped his body…”

    No offense intended, sir, but what evidence do you have that this actually happened?

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