Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › The final word on Moshiach from the meisim (hopefully!)
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October 23, 2023 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #2233916qwerty613Participant
To sechel83
After the Hamas attack I stated that I wanted a moratorium from these disputes. Let me make another offer. You can continue to believe that the Rebbe will come back from the dead and save every Jew. I’ll wait to see who Hashem sends as Moshiach.
August 27, 2024 11:57 am at 11:57 am #2309237anyPotatoKugelLeftParticipantI met the Mechaber last week. He told me he has received good feedback from several members of the Moietzes.
He also showed me he received a new Michtav Bracha from former Reb Aron Kotler Talmid and YU Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Aaron Rakeffet Shlit’a.
August 28, 2024 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #2309643Reb EliezerParticipantThe gemara questions in Perek Chelek and lives it in a teika. Why create an unnecessary miracle? Except for Hilel who says that there will be no time between techies hamesim and the time of meshiach We don’t pasken like Hilel. Rav Abarbanel discusses it in his sefer Yeshuas Medhicho.
August 28, 2024 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2309699Reb EliezerParticipantShould be above leaves it in a teika. Should also be Yeshuas Meshucho.
August 29, 2024 10:44 am at 10:44 am #2309750philosopherParticipantPotato, klal yisroel as a whole rejects the notion that the dead Lubavitche rebbe is moshiach, so that’s that. Let’s see him take you Lubavitche out of gulas first, then you can argue that he’s the moshiach. The bigger issue is that he is an idol that you worship. You pray to him, you believe he’s physically alive, you say he never made mistakes, that he’s everywhere and that he runs the world. This is avoideh zura mamesh.
August 29, 2024 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2309897anyPotatoKugelLeftParticipantPhilosopher if you say so it must be true.
No point denying your words of Emes.
You clearly have the same facts and first hand knowledge the vilna gaon had.Sinas Chinum is a sad thing indeed.
August 30, 2024 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2310010philosopherParticipantPotato, where does the Vilna Gaon come into the picture?
So you don’t believe that the Rebbe is physically alive?
You dont believe the Lubavitche rabbis who say the Rebbe never made mistakes, that he’s all over and that you can pray to him wherever you are?
You dont believe that the Rebbe runs the world? Do you condemn Cunin for saying that the Rebbe runs the world?August 31, 2024 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2310245philosopherParticipantLet me rephrase what I wrote in an earlier post. I wrote that the Lubavitche Rebbe “is an idol that you worship”. I would like to say instead that Lubavitche Chassidim who believe in the Rebbe’s divine powers are turning him into an idol. I have not done much research into the Rebbes writings and have not heard many recordings. I did watch a few videos of his speeches and I was impressed with what he had to say however lately I’ve been reading things he wrote and seeing videos that i didnt see until now and can conclude that in his later years he may have been sending his Chassidim mixed messages regarding him being moshiach. But I cannot say “he is an idol”, rather he is being made into an idol by those who worship him. The worshippers of the Rebbe are doing a tremendous disservice to the PERSON they so admire.
August 31, 2024 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2310249sechel83Participantthe vilna gaon was fed lies by the misnagdim, thats why he made a cherem against chassidim, he considered chassidim ovdai avoda zara, a cult, etc (all the things claimed against chabad today)
these misnagdim said hallel (some of them) the day the baal hatanya was put in jail – they thought he would never get out
the vilna gaon accepted edus from people he trusted, it wasn’t really his fault.August 31, 2024 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2310257anyPotatoKugelLeftParticipantPhilosopher, I do not have seething hatred in my heart.
Unless you have seen first hand anything remotely close to any of the wild allegations you are making you would be well advised to stop Sinas Chinum and machloikes.But the bigger kasha is who taught you to hate?
Why is there constantly active multiple threads bashing lubavitch? Why do the mods allow it?Do you think it gives nachas to Hashem? Do you ever think about Hashem?
This thread is a about a sugia in chazal.
Do you acknowledge chazal teach Moshiach can be anyone from the living or meisim that is considered fit?September 1, 2024 2:02 am at 2:02 am #2310425philosopherParticipantPotato and sechel, instead of answering my questions about your beliefs about the Lubavitche Rebbe you claim lies are being fed and people are taught to hate… B’kitzer, you think that by skirting the questions instead of being honest, and using the words “wild allegations, sinas chinum and machloikes” you can scare people off from shedding light onto your avoda zora worship. The videos and articles from Lubavitche “rabbis” are there and you ignore it. The questions are put forth and you ignore it. You think people are blind? You think you can hide under the cover of the words “sinas chinum and machloikes”?
September 1, 2024 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2310559yankel berelParticipantSin’at hinam is being used as a get out of jail card. Whenever you are confronted with something you do not have a common sense answer, you scream sin’at hinam …
and voila , all is clear.September 1, 2024 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2310561yankel berelParticipantMashiach cannot be min hameitim because of the following simple reason.
1] habad is never wrong & whenever there is a source contradicting what they say , there is a way out. There HAS to be one.
2] habad with all its mashpi’im , rabanim, thinkers, ovdim, maskilim, rashei yeshiva, mothers , temimim,mekuravim, mekarvim , shluhim, adherents and hasidim ALL OF THEM , without fail, were saying pre 3 tamuz that their rebbi cannot die because there is a nevua that their rebbi is mashiach.
3] nevua letovah cant be batel.So how could habad entertain the thought that mashiach comes from the meitim?
September 1, 2024 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2310584philosopherParticipantI hesitate to say this, but I have originally believed the Lubavitche Rebbe to have been innocent in this debacle but now I’m starting to get a different picture. I have shown someone the video that i posted on the other Lubavitche thread about Cunin saying that the Rebbe runs the world. The person I showed the video to was absolutely shocked but said somethung very profound. Being a Chosid he knew how Chassidim are and he said that the Rebbe must’ve wriiten and said things that brought his Chassiddim to believe what they believe in. That comment stayed with me and since my last post saying that I’m changing what i wrote that the “rebbe is an idol that you worship”, to “the Lubavitche believing that the Rebbe has divine powers” I’ve been doing more and more research into the Lubavitche Rebbe’s writings and I have to say I’m shocked.
From the writings of “Ah rebbe iz Atzmus uMahus vos hot zich areingeshtelt in a guf” to signing his name as moshiach, to accepting a tambourine a woman made for him “because he’s the moshiach”, to encouraging the saying of “yechi” in his last year of life, etc. The whole meshiachisten ideology and his Chassidim believing in him having divine powers did not happen in a vaccuum.
September 1, 2024 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2310611Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantSechel > vilna gaon was fed lies by the misnagdim, thats why he made a cherem against chassidim,
could you tell us whose opinion this is? Most chassidim and misnagdim made peace by now, and I think the prevailing view is that Gaon’s position against excesses helped Chassidim to become a better movement. I think Alter Rebbe also contributed to that process.
September 1, 2024 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2310627gobritParticipantIf you guys stop arguing so much and each believe what you want to believe you’ll bring Moshiach so much quicker through shalom, then we’ll see whose right
September 1, 2024 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #2310719yankel berelParticipant@gobrit
Its not such a nonchalant affair.
This is ikarei emuna.
At least thats what all of habad clearly said for quite a number of years . [pre 1994]
He CANNOT die because this is ikarei emuna.Ikarei emuna is heavy stuff .
Its the stuff, countless of our forefatehers were burnt alive for.
Lost their houses , their parnassah and their children.You don’t play around with ikarei emuna.
They are not mere socks, to be changed the next day.
September 1, 2024 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #2310720yankel berelParticipant@potato
potato should stop injecting the false argument of sin’at hinam.
Arguments about mashiach min hameitim is totally legitimate and have NOTHING to do with sin’at hinam.
Misusing the idea of sin’at hinam is a lame attempt at influencing a debate to be had on its own merits.September 2, 2024 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2310743philosopherParticipantgobrit, the argument at this point is not so much if the Rebbe is moshiach. If only the moshiach aspect would be the case no would care this much. The bigger issue is the worship of their rebbe. Would you be OK with Christian communities living amongst us, dressed as Chareidim, feeling like they are Chareidim, mingling with us? Would their hechsheirim be accepted as kosher? Would people buy from their sofrim? Would they daven in their sohuls? The early Christians were “frum” Jews, so this scenerio was the reality 2,000 years ago.
The bigger problem is not Chabad meshiachistens insistence that their dead rebbe is moshiach, that is the source of the problem but not the extent of the problem. The bigger problem is that Chabiadinity is not Judaism. It is a seperate religion of kofrim who believe the Rebbe runs the world, the Rebbe is everywhere, that one should pray to him, that he knows everything, that he never made mistakes and thar he is alive in a physical sense. The is a”z mamesh. That we have people from this religion giving hechsheirim and providing food, having minyanim all over the world where Jewish travelers daven and provide services and mingling with us is a huge, huge problem as well as a chillul shem shomayim.September 2, 2024 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2310800yankel berelParticipantBeit shammai argued severely against beit hillel and it was never considered sin’at hinam.
September 2, 2024 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2310920anyPotatoKugelLeftParticipantYankel Berel and philosophy and any other people that don’t suffer from sinas Chinum.
Here is a copy and paste from the Mechaber website of mkoros that state chazal hold Moshiach can come from the dead. Ie ikrei emuna hold of it.
בס”ד
In addition to the mkoros brought in Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach (English abridged version) which focused on pirush Rashi. Below are more mkoros from Rishonim and Acharonim that understand the Gemara Sanhedrin 98b to be teaching literally that Moshiach can come from the maisim.יד רמה (סנהדרין צח, ב) “אמר רב אי מן חייא הוא, אם משיח מאלו שחיין עכשיו הוא, כגון רבינו הקדוש הוא, שהיה חסיד וסובל חלאים. ואם מן הדורות הראשונים שמתו הוא, אין דוגמתו בהם אלא דניאל איש חמודות, שהיה מזרע דוד והיה צדיק גמור ונידון ביסורים שהשליכוהו לגוב אריות. ויש מפרשין אם יש דוגמתו בחיים היינו רבינו הקדוש ואם דוגמא הוא למתים כגון דניאל”. ע”ש
ערוגת הבושם (לר’ אברהם בן עזריאל) ח”א ע’ 264, מביא מדברי ר’ משה בר’ חסדאי (על תשובת רב האי גאון על ענין הישועה) “ומה שאמר [=רב האי] אז יעלה משיח בן יוסף עם האנשים המתלקטים עמו, לא שנולד באותו הדור אלא עמהם יתחבר ויהיה מצליח עד שימליכו אותו, והם לא ידעו אי מזה בא, מיהו רבותינו היו מסתפקים במשיח, ואמרו בפ’ חלק, אי מן חייא הוא אי מן מתיא”. ע”ש
אברבנאל: ישועות משיחו העיון השני פרק ראשון סוף דרך הא’ כותב “ואל יקשה עליך שיהי’ מלך המשיח מן הקמים בתחי’, כי כבר נסתפקו על זה בפרק חלק ואמר רב אסי אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש, ואי מן מתיא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות”. ע”ש
אברבנאל: בספרו מעייני הישועה, (המעיין החמישי, תמר שני), בביאור דברי רב שאם מן משיח מן המתים יהי’ דניאל, וז”ל “דעת השלמים האלה … שהקמים בתחיה ישתמשו בחושיהם ובעניני העולם כשאר החיים. ולכן אמרו שאולי יהיה המלך המשיח המולך על ישראל בזמן הגאולה אחד מן הקמים בתחיה שיהיו מזרע דוד”. ע”ש
(והנה ישנם הטוענים טענה תמוהה ביותר, שדברי האברבנאל בישועות משיחו שם באים בהמשך למה שמפרש שם אגדת מנחם בן חזקי’ על פי פשוטו. אמנם האברבנאל עצמו מעדיף שלא לפרשה כפשוטו אלא על דרך משל. ועפ”ז כתבו שלמסקנת האברבנאל שמפרש האגדה שם על דרך משל, גם דברים אלו נדחו.
אבל טענה זו מופרכת היא מעיקרא
כי:
א) הטעם למה האברבנאל מעדיף לפרש אגדה זו שלא כפשוטו הוא מצד טעם אחר לגמרי (שקשה לו לקבל שהשוורים או הערבי היו נביאים וידעו מיהו המשיח וכו’ ע”ש) ואינו קשור כלל להנידון האם משיח יכול להיות מן המתים. ואדרבה, האברבנאל עצמו הוא שחידש ואמר שאם נפרש כפשוטו, יותר מסתבר לפרשה שהמשיח מת ויקום לתחי’, מלפרשו שהוא עדיין חי בג”ע. ע”ש.
ב) דבריו כאן, (שמלך המשיח יכול להיות מן הקמים לתחי’) מיוסדים על דברי הגמ’ בסנהדרין, ואינם תלויים וקשורים כלל איך נפרש האגדה של מנחם בן חזקי’.
ג) ובאם נצרך לעוד הוכחה – הרי האברבנאל עצמו כותב ענין זה שמשיח יכול להיות מן המתים (מיוסד על דברי הגמ’ בסנהדרין) במעיני הישועה שם, בלי קשר כלל לאגדת מנחם בן חזקי’).
יפה מראה, על ירושלמי ברכות פ”ב ה”ד “אהן מלכא משיחא. מלך המשיח הזה, אם מן החיים הוא דוד שמו, ואם מן המתים הוא דוד שמו. ונראה דמשום דרב נחמן אמר אי מן חייא הוא כגון אנא, ורב אמר אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש ואי מן מתייא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות, כדאיתא בפרק חלק, (סנהדרין צח) לכן אמרו רבנן דליתא, אלא בין כך ובין כך דוד שמו”. ע”ש
הגהות מהרש”ם על עירובין מג, א, ד”ה מותר לשתות (נדפס בעירובין מהדורת וגשל): “ועי’ חתם סופר ח”ו סי’ צח שהאריך בזה דודאי גואל האחרון יהי’ א’ מצדיקי הדור כמו שהי’ ביציאת מצרים, והשקלא וטריא קאי הכא לענין קיבוץ זקני ישראל ברגע א’ למקום א’ ועי”ז יתפרסם ביאתו בכל העולם יעוש”ה בכ”ז. וצ”ע שלא הביא ד’ ש”ס דסנהדרין (צח:) אי מן חייא כו’ אי מן מתייא כו’ הרי דמסופק בזה וע”ש ברש”י ב’ לשונות”. ע”ש
מלבי”ם סוף חגי ג, כא-כג: אמר אל זרובבל. כי באשר שיצמח צמח לבית דוד תלוי בזמן שתגיע הגאולה האמתית וצריך שיקדם לה מלחמת גוג ומגוג ובזמן בית שני לא מלך מלך מבית יהודה וזרובבל נקרא פחת יהודה לא מלך וראה הנביא שאז לא הגיע זמן התיקון כי לא זכו הדור ההוא לזה ע”פ מעשיהם הודיע אל זרובבל שבכ”ז דבר ה’ לא ישוב ריקם ובא יבא בעת מן העתים זכו אחישנה לא זכו בעתה.. ביום ההוא. אז יצמח צמח דוד, ואז “אקחך” (ר”ל הזרע שיקים ממנו או שהוא עצמו יקום בתחיה) “ושמתיך כחותם” שהוא יהיה תכלית הבריאה וחותמת וכחותמו של הקב”ה שהוא אמת וקיים לעד, “כי בך בחרתי” מצד הבחירה שבחר בדוד עבדו ובזרעו. ע”ש
שער יששכר (להרב חיים אלעזר שפירא ממונקאטש, בעל השו”ת מנחת אלעזר ועוד) ח”ב ע’ שעד: ואם שבעונותינו נאבד ונסתלק משיח אלקי יעקב שבדור הזה כי לקח אותו אלקים ואיננו לזה אומרין הושענא למענך גואלנו היינו כמו שכתוב מלך ישראל וגואלו ה’ צבאות אני ראשון ואני אחרון וכו’ דאנו בוטחים בו יתברך דהוא חי וקים לעד ונקרא חי גואלי ובידו לגאול אותנו ולשלוח לנו גואל חזק ומי שיצוה לו לגאלינו יבא ויגאלינו ואין אנו מבינים האם יהי’ משיח פושט צורה ולובש צורה חדשה או באופן אחר כרצונו ית”ש רק שיבא ב”ב … ויהי’ הכל בדרך נס הן בנין בית המקווה ב”ב והן ביאת המשיח שישלחהו משמים ויתגלה לטובה כי ה’ לבדו ידרוש את עמו ועיר קדשו ב”ב. ע”ש
ועיין עוד כעין זה בהערה בריש שו”ת מנחת אלעזר ח”ד על הסכמת הרש”א אלפאנדרי זצ”ל. ע”ש
September 2, 2024 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2310921anyPotatoKugelLeftParticipantAlso regarding all your concerns of avoda Zara etc
May I suggest you rally “your gedolim” to come out publicly and state the same avoda Zara claims. After all we all follow them right?
Why have they not come out with a signed kol korei? Could it be because it’s not true? But then why are the “gedolim” not protesting the “sinas Chinum”Hmmmm I’m confused….
Can someone with the inside scoop shine a light. TIASee Dovid Lichtenstein radio show:
8/3/19 – Shiur 231 – Maran Harav Shach and the Lubavitcher Rebbe: 30 years later understanding their Hashkafik and Halachic differences1 minute and 50 seconds
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky – Moietzes Gedolay haTorah
Rabbi Dovid Cohen
Rabbi Mendel Schafran
Rabbi Hershel Schachter
Rabbi Dovid YosefSeptember 3, 2024 9:57 am at 9:57 am #2311058yankel berelParticipantPotato conveniently ignores the well documented habad ikarei emuna stand which loudly proclaimed that their mashiach [sheker] COULD NOT die because it was promised by [false] nevua that their “leader/navi/god/yoets/university graduate/ge’an hage’onim/tsadiq yesod olam/nasi hador” is mashiach.
That [supposedly] was a nevua amitit which CANNOT be changed.
That [supposedly] was part ikarei emuna which renders the non believer into a kofer.No second coming, that was heresy.
No mashiach min hameitim , that was heresy.To top it all of – just to remind the world of what my very own eyes have seen and what my very own ears have heard, is now being classified by a totally brainwashed and blind follower of this purim charade as nothing less than SIN’AT HINAM !!!
Could not make it up even if I wanted …
September 3, 2024 9:57 am at 9:57 am #2311068philosopherParticipantPotato, regardless if you bring sources that moshiach can come from the dead, the fact is that many Lubavitche rabbis claim that the Rebbe is PHYSICALLY alive. For moshiach to fulfill the prophecies he would have to be alive so if you believe your Rebbe is the moshiach he would have to have techius maysim first. Why don’t non-Chabad rabbunim protest the belief that the rebbe is moshiach?They dont care, and rightfully so, because its not a”z to believe that the Rebbe is moshiach.
The problem is, and I keep repeating this, is the a”z aspect of worshipping your rebbe. I have said that it’s a chillul Hashem that no one is speaking out against the avodah zora that goes on. However, I will be dan l’kaf zchus that like most frum people, gedolim have no clue that Lubavitche believe their rebbe is running the world, that they are are praying to the rebbe’s chair, that they believe they can pray to the lubavitche rebbe like to a god, that they make aliyahs for him like hes alive, that they make believe that he’s giving dollars to the oilim, that they say that the rebbe never made mistakes, etc, etc. The behavior of making believe that the rebbe is giving out dollars and l’chaims is like those who worship actual idols; they make as if their god is actually doing the physical work. The gedolim have no clue, like most frum people, that this is what Lubavitche believe in and actually do.
September 3, 2024 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2311200Menachem ShmeiParticipantPhilosopher would be attacking chareidim if he saw a negative documentary portraying chareidim as a devilish cult with real footage of actual chareidim (there are many such documentaries).
September 4, 2024 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2311389philosopherParticipantMenachem Shmei, i have seen documentaries protraying Chareidim in a negative light. I have never attacked Chareidim based on any documentary and my opinions on Chareidim are not hinged on any documentary. In fact, if there were opportunities to defend Chareidim over a documentary that portrayed Chareidim in a false manner, i defended Chareidim and blasted the documentary. My opinions of individuals and groups and communities are based on their beliefs and actions, not on an edited false narrative.
I’m asking you to clarify your beliefs. Do you believe the Rebbe runs the world, that he is everywhere, that you can pray to him anywhere and he’ll listen to your prayer and help, and that he never made mistakes? (These are the attributes omnipotence and omnipresence which are attributes of Hashem) Yes or no? It’s not an essay question. Just answer a simple, one word answer, yes or no.
September 4, 2024 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2311420yankel berelParticipant@shmei
Very important to remember
Philosopher is not attacking Habad PEOPLE .
He is questioning habad PRETSEL THEOLOGY.Antisemites attack the JEWISH PEOPLE.
Huge difference.
.September 7, 2024 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #2312242sechel83ParticipantPhilosopher:
No one believes such a thing,
It’s something made up just like all chabad does the whole day in yeshiva is learn Tanya and put teffillen on jewsSeptember 8, 2024 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2312400philosopherParticipantSechel, I’m glad to hear you dont believe in that. Im wondering what percentage of Chabad doee believe in that ideology. You cannot deny this about Chabad when I watched many videos of Chabad rabbis saying these things. I have posted 4 videos from Chabad rabbis saying these things about the the rebbe, that he runs the world, that he is physically alive, etc, etc and a video of Lubavitche praying to Rebbe’s chair, claiming he’s not feeling well 30 years after his death, calling him up for an aliyeh, etc. 2 of these videos were posted on the other thread, another one was not posted at all and the 4th one was deleted by the mods. But these are the facts that I see of what Chabad rabbis teach Chabad Chassidim and some of Chabad’s Chassidim own behavior.
September 9, 2024 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2312751anyPotatoKugelLeftParticipantPhilosopher, so only links allowed in coffee room are about lubavitch?
September 9, 2024 10:38 am at 10:38 am #2313035philosopherParticipantPotato, no not only Chabad links are allowed. I posted on another thread a link to Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s shmuess on voting in the Israeli elections and the mods posted it.
September 10, 2024 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2313405yankel berelParticipant@philosopher
you mention a link to R Avigdor Miller’s shmuess on voting in the Israeli elections .
Can you tell me where I can get that link ?
Ty. -
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