January 17, 2012 6:05 am at 6:05 am #601660
anyone read the Hamodia last week?
very interesting article. worth reading
google ‘Pulling the Strings Behind the Incitement Campaign’
(you can only view part, but you’ll get the gist)January 17, 2012 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #847034
And? Emes is Emes, no matter the source.January 17, 2012 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #847035
GAW: meaning?January 17, 2012 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #847036
If she is right, who cares who she is.
If she is wrong, who cares who she is.January 17, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #847037akupermaParticipant
The real issue is that there are two competing, and mutually exclusive paradigms pertaining to the Jewish community of Eretz Yisrael. One is based on a “Torah and Mitsvos” idea of what it means to be Jewish, the other is a secular, ethnic and nationalistic one. They can’t coexist indefinitely. One will eventually force out the other, and thus conflict is inevitable.January 17, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #847038
that’s just the kind of misunderstanding I wanted to correct.
did you actually read the article?
The anti-charedi sentiment in the Israeli media is not a spontaneous reaction to various incidents. It’s a premeditated campaign with a specific intention.
mehadrin buses and beit shemesh spitters are irrelevant.January 17, 2012 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #847039
It’s a premeditated campaign with a specific intention.
So was Rosa Parks, and Dr. King.
And?January 17, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #847040Avi KParticipant
A former Meretz Yerushalayim city councillor once said in an interview in “Besheva” that she left after she saw representatives of a Charedi party entering the Meretz city headquarters. When she asked what they were doing there she was told that both parties needed a confrontation as the press had been ignoring them. Perhaps this is why she only became partially closer to Judaism.January 17, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #847041
the “force” is Hashem, the reason we don’t know, every yid should be looking for some way to come closer to the ????? ?? ????January 18, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #847042
yemach shemo once said “the jew brings two things to the world, circumcision on the body and conscience on the mind”.(I changed the exact lashon). That’s why he hated them so much. The secular jews hate the shomrei torah because they represent God in the world and accountability for one’s actions. The secular want to be free of their conscience and as long as the shomrei torah are around they know deep down that they are wrong.January 18, 2012 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #847043Avi KParticipant
Crzybrit, throwing stones, setting fire to garbage dumpsters, spitting and shouting foul names is coming closer to Hashem?January 18, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #847045yahudMember
right on target, longarekel
“Lo bikshu avodah zarah elo lehatir lohem arayos”January 18, 2012 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #847046
Where in the Torah does it say women are supposed to go to the Back of the Bus?January 18, 2012 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #847047koachshtikaMember
Interesting. The article is a must read.January 18, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #847048
Avi K: C’mon. Some statistics, please. What % of chareidim meet your description?
longarekel: I think that most secular Jews in Israel are convinced that all charedim hate them. Barring, of course, those they know personally. Those are obviously exceptions.
And most chareidim are convinced that all secular Jews hate them. Barring, of course, those they know personally. Those are obviously exceptions.
Again, I wonder what the actual statistics are.
Why oh why do so many people work with feelings instead of hard facts?January 18, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #847050
koachshtika: thank you. At least I got one hit. I thought there would be thousands 🙂January 18, 2012 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #847051
mods, where did my reply to avi k go?
Into the black hole called “I forgot why but there was something I didn’t like about it, and we’ve gotten very strict about posts which are mean but I don’t remember if it was mean or something else, but now I looked and I deleted it because it had the word hell and I decided I didn’t like it even though I just said it to you”January 18, 2012 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #847052
whoops sorry my badJanuary 23, 2012 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #847053
GAW: “So was Rosa Parks, and Dr. King.
(No more ‘And’s. Please 🙂 )January 23, 2012 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #847054
GAW: “So was Rosa Parks, and Dr. King.
Perhaps if you explain what your original point was, then I can understand. I thought (as per the article) that the point was that the woman in question doesn’t really care about Charaidim. My answer to that is “so what”? A wrong is a wrong, no matter who points it out, or the purpose of doing so.
If you are bothered by the “premeditation”, then other campaigns were premeditated as well, such as Dr. King’s march.
(no “ands” 😉January 23, 2012 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #847055
As much the secular media and secular (or symopathizers) are busy talking about charedim forcing their way on to them, it turns out to be just the opposite!
The secularists are running a full fledged campaign to destroy the charedi lifestyle, even wity things that are happenning deep within the communities, like giving instructions the hard way which signs may hang, and which signs must be ripped down by police with all jew hating TV stations attending with their cameras drawn, nad the bus lines that are used 99.9% by frum jews should be banned, because once upon a time there was a brave lady named Rosa parks, blah blah…January 23, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #847056
nad the bus lines that are used 99.9% by frum jews should be banned
A good way to get around saying “and” 🙂January 23, 2012 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #847057
“The secularists are running a full fledged
campaign to destroy the charedi lifestyle”
good morning, “blah blah”January 23, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #847058
OK, I see I have to elaborate AND continue where I made the “short stop”..
A lot of charedi areas are running their private bus lines, like from beth Shemesh/yerushalayim, Beitar/yerushalayim etc, and some bus lines in the past were also run by private firms throughout cities like Yerushalayim and town to town under the name “Mehadrin”, because they wanted separate lines, they chose to not sit side by side with the neighbor’s wife, rather next to one of the same gender.
Till Egged (aka Rosa Parks?) saw they might lose a lot of business, so they fought those bus lines, and they offered to provide themselves separated buses, now some secularists are ought to destroy all of this, because they hate Torah, and they hate charedim and they just want to turn the holy land into a secular pritzus’dik place.
Summary, non of the charedim ever fought that Tel Aviv, Eilat, Haifa or even the secular areas of Jerusalem or Beth Shemesh should be forced to use separate buses, they never hung out signs asking to dress modestly in all those secular or dati areas, cuz they’re not out to force their lifestyle on the chiloni’s, but the opposite does happen. Hashem yerachem.January 23, 2012 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #847059
GY: That is what you get for living in a socialist country. You should move to Galt’s Gulch, where you would be able to have whatever type of seating you would like.
In the US as well, there are regulations (for example, a passenger can not be denied service due to skin color), and government rules (such as the insanity known as the Jones Act). However, part of living in the country means you follow the rules. If a bus company is given a monopoly you can:
1: Not use the bus (vote with your feet)
2: Vote to change the rules
What you can’t do is expect to be allowed to skirt them.
In fact, I agree with you in the most part. The Egged monopoly should be removed. Speak to your MP (if you live in Israel) to promote this idea. In fact, the Charaidi community SHOULD boycott Egged until the government allows them to open their own bus line, if that is what they want.
Your comment has nothing to do with secularism, and everything to do with Mammon. (One of the three things the world stands on. The other two are Kesef and Gelt!)January 23, 2012 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #847060
I’ll add: Hanlon’s RazorJanuary 23, 2012 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #847061ToiParticipant
Gaw-as has been mentioned before, when the chareidim attempt to open their own bus lines, Egged, with their monopoly status, has enough pull to get transportation inspectors to shut them down due to obscure violations. In the end, the chareidim need to get someplace, and succumb to the neccesity of taking a bus.January 24, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #847062Derech HaMelechMember
zahavasdad: It’s right there in Devarim 17:10-11. It doesn’t specify the bus per se, but the inference is extremely clear.January 24, 2012 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #847063
Toi: That is what I am suggesting that you work on. Changing Egged’s monopoly status via a change in law or a boycott.
If Tznuis is so important, isn’t worth a few taxis for a month or two (until they give in)? You wouldn’t buy a big mac or a miniskirt because it is cheaper, would you?January 24, 2012 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #847064
Fact: those Mehadrin bus lines that are still private, like Beth Shemesh, Beitar etc. are also being challenged by the frum hating activists, and provocators boarded those buses on more than one occasion to provocate and get some media attention.January 24, 2012 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #847065
Fact: those Mehadrin bus lines that are still private, like Beth Shemesh, Beitar etc. are also being challenged by the frum hating activists,
Get security to remove them by force. That is why they are Private, no? Only certain people may use following the rules of the company.January 24, 2012 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #847067
I dont know about your Chumash, but in mine AND Rav Moshe’s I dont see anything infered about sending women to the back of the busJanuary 24, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #847068
zahavasdad: I’m curious. When was the last time you were on a bus here?January 24, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #847069
GAW: My original intention was simply to provide an interesting read.
(thanks for the accommandation!)January 24, 2012 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #847070
(thanks for the accommandation!)
No problem 🙂January 24, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #847071
I havent been to israel in 20 years, but they tried the Back of the Bus here in the US too.
Back of the Bus is a real Chilul Hashem and thats not only my opinion, its the opinion of many.January 24, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #847072ToiParticipant
zdad- you continuously shoot off your opinions while being totally informe; don’t presume to compare the situation here in EY and in America.
Gaw- im not sure how familiar you are with the transportation system in yerushalayim, but the bus isnt an occasional expenditure, its a neccesity for daily life, and, as such, cant be compared to a big mac. Boycotts will not work because there is simply no alternative- its not like refusing to by a braun- its like telling you not to shave ever again! (my apologies if you have a beard-you still get the point)January 24, 2012 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #847073
It is a chillul Hashem for men and women to sit together since Hashem does not want that. Since men have a more prominent public role in jewish life it makes sense for the women to be in the back, somewhat out of the public eye. The opinion of many can still be wrong.January 25, 2012 12:03 am at 12:03 am #847074
In NYC riding the Buses and Trains are things most people do most days.
Ive been on the Buses in Israel and they are not as crowded as the Subways in NYC.
Ever ride the NYC Subways during rush hour, Where you are crowded in like a sardine?January 25, 2012 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #847076
zahavasdad -“Ive been on the Buses in Israel and they are not as crowded as the Subways in NYC.”
Exactly! So why in Israel do the Non-Charedi women have to sit right next to the men? There is plenty of room to sit elsewhere. And if the men are in the front -why can’t the women sit in the back? Why make another person unconfortable? I think they do this on purpose because they want to show that they can step all over the Charedim and get away with it. It shows their animalistic behavior.
Let’s say you’re on a bus in NYC and it’s not that crowded and s/o who is coughing all over the place decides to sit next to you. Let’s say this person doesn’t have TB, just a virus, so you’re life isn’t in danger. But they are coughing and not doing a good job in covering it up. Do you think it’s wrong to ask this person to sit in the back -not near anyone? Do you think it’s wrong if this person was asked and they refused? The same thing here -maybe this women has no clue what an Aveira is, but they know touching a woman is against this person’s religion. So why wouldn’t they want to accomodate him? It’s only because of their hatred towards Frum people and there lack of respect towards the Jewish religion. If anybody would be honest -they would see this is no different than s/o who is coughing away!January 25, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #847077Sam2Participant
Longarekel: Just because you can make a decent logical case for it does not change how it looks to the world.January 25, 2012 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #847078
If you dont want to sit with the opposite gender on the bus or Subway, then Drive your own car or hire your own private busJanuary 25, 2012 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #847079rabbiofberlinParticipant
The one blatant ommission in this whole discussion is so obvious that it throws the whole “stting next to a different gender” out the window. To all those who do not want to sit next to a woman, STAND !!!!! Do not force your beliefs on other people !January 25, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #847080popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If you dont want to sit with the opposite gender on the bus or Subway, then Drive your own car or hire your own private bus or convince the existing bus company to make separate lines for you.January 25, 2012 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #847081
Not if there is government or someone elses money involvedJanuary 25, 2012 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #847082adamsParticipant
that’s the issue, is this a violence based ideology. WHat I mean, is the ideology says, you must dress this way, or do as I say, if not, I will smack you in the mouth. But I already know, that you won’t smack me back because you are an ‘ehriche yid’. With any other group of people on planet earth, I couldn’t get away with this. ANd this proves that I am right and everyone else is wrong.January 26, 2012 2:39 am at 2:39 am #847083
zahavasdad -“If you dont want to sit with the opposite gender on the bus or Subway, then Drive your own car or hire your own private bus”
How about asking them to move to the back of the bus? Both have paid full fares -if there is a way to accomodate both – why not? If there is a reason for women to sit in the back of the bus -it’s not discrimination. You seem to be college educated -so you should know the difference. Discrimination is doing something based on their race, gender, religion & so on. But you are deliberately ignoring this.
If the Frum Jew and the Non-religious woman can be on the same bus and it’s only a minor inconvenience for the woman passenger (she has to walk a few more steps) -why are they in an uproar? The only reason I can come up with is -“We hate your religion and we won’t even lift a finger to let you practice it!”January 26, 2012 2:45 am at 2:45 am #847084
rabbiofberlin -“The one blatant ommission in this whole discussion is so obvious that it throws the whole “stting next to a different gender” out the window. To all those who do not want to sit next to a woman, STAND !!!!! Do not force your beliefs on other people !”
You obviously have never been on a bus! Most of us aren’t able to have a limo -chauffer us around. I’m sure the Frum men look for another seat or stand before they ask for her to move to the back of the bus. If it’s a little crowded even standing won’t help because she will bump into the men going on & off.January 26, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #847085
adams -“that’s the issue, is this a violence based ideology. WHat I mean, is the ideology says, you must dress this way, or do as I say, if not, I will smack you in the mouth. But I already know, that you won’t smack me back because you are an ‘ehriche yid’. With any other group of people on planet earth, I couldn’t get away with this. ANd this proves that I am right and everyone else is wrong.”
Your post is Not coherent. I don’t even know which side you are on!January 26, 2012 3:08 am at 3:08 am #847086
Sam2: We cannot be matir issurim because the world disapproves of the ways of the torah. That would be a chillul Hashem.
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