October 19, 2009 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #666324
It was proven it WASN’T, which is why the thread died after I posted the Igros Moshes. Historical revisionism won’t change the result, which is easily available to all who want to view it.October 19, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #666325squeakParticipant
PY, thanks for a fun read!October 19, 2009 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #666326squeakParticipant
This thread reminds me of a closing line from the famous Oscar Wilde play, The Importance of Speaking Yiddish.
“My nephew, you seem to be displaying signs of triviality.”
“On the contrary,” he replies, “I’ve now realized for the first time in my life the vital Importance of Speaking Yiddish.”October 19, 2009 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #666327
Why is it that a post trying to establish the “holy” supremacy of Yiddish was written in such eloquent vernacular? Isn’t it rather obvious that the posters first and main language was and remains English? Hiskosh’shi veKushi.October 19, 2009 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #666328
Only the phrase “Shygetz Aross” is holy, as the baal Ponim Chalashois (anyone else here know what I am referring to) once said that Ki Sissa = Kol Yisroel Tizaki Shygetz Aross.October 19, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #666329
Jothar “It was proven it WASN’T, which is why the thread died after I posted the Igros Moshes. “
Oh yeah, Was too!October 19, 2009 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #666330
I know of schools that only teach Yiddish, no torah, no mitzvot, no shabbat, no kosher, no tziniut.
I know at least 3 very big schools like that. In NY no one has ever seen anything like it, but unfortunately that’s the “holy” Yiddish for secular Jews.October 19, 2009 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #666331
sammygol, Oib ich vult es geshribben in der mamme loshen, asach mentchen du vult nebech gornish farshtein.October 19, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #666332mepalMember
Ich hub farshtanen.October 19, 2009 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #666333
I don’t know about the others, but I DID hear many shiurim from a great Rosh Yeshiva who was breaking his teeth and twisting his tongue each and every time he had to deliver one in Yiddish. Only after the shiur, when people crowded around him asking for elucidation, did everything fall into place and make sense. What was the point then? The Yeshiva has an unwritten rule that only Yiddish may be spoken from the podium. Sure, that definitely applied when it was founded, and when only the “moderne” American rabbis couldn’t handle the language. Nowadays, when most of the bachurim know some 30 Yeshivish words in Yiddish, and some of the Hanhala themselves do not know much more, it is painful to watch how a great talmid chochom tries to discuss subtel nuances in a sugya in a language that isn’t his. Adding insult to injury, mistakes are made, sometimes very bad ones, causing laughter. Is THAT the supposed holiness of the language?October 19, 2009 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #666334
sammygol, With all due respect, I’ve been to MANY Yiddish shiurim from both Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim, and I have never experianced what you describe. And I know Yiddish fluently.October 19, 2009 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #666335
I suppose you never learned in …….. then. Oh well, unfortunately some of the funnier errors were taped and laughed at over the years. This obviously added to K’vod HaTorah, and all in the name of a language! The Yiddishist’n would be proud.October 19, 2009 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #666336
In the case you describe, I don’t think anyone would disagree it would have been perfectly fine to use English. Why DID he use a language he had trouble with? Just because a certain thing may be ideal doesn’t mean it is always appropriate. And I don’t see how you can blame others for his choice. Perhaps there is an element to the story you were unfamiliar with?October 20, 2009 12:10 am at 12:10 am #666337
I was listening to someone by the shloshim of Rav Elya Svei ZT”L. He was trying to speak Yiddish but kept saying “from” instead of “fun”. I hope he was still yotzei the mitzvah of speaking Yiddish.
They translated the Torah into 70 languages. Why didn’t they translate it into Yiddish and tell everyone to learn Yiddish?
American and Israeli Yiddish speakers speak a completely different type of Yiddish. And even veteran Yiddish speaker have trouble translating Rav Levi Yitzchok’s “Gutt fun Avrohom”. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko means teaching people in the language they are familiar with, in the language in which they think. Why make Torah harder for no reason? Leave Yiddish to the Bundists the way we left ksav ivri for the Samaritans.October 20, 2009 12:23 am at 12:23 am #666338Pashuteh YidMember
In the bracha of al hamichya, there is a dispute as to whether to conclude al hamichya or al hamichya v’al hakalkalah. There are some who conclude the bracha al hamichya v’al hakalkalah zogt men nisht. (They add in the words “we don’t say” to cancel out the al hakalkalah if not correct.) A friend of mine was explaining that when Moshe Rabbeinu came down from the mountain he taught the klal that the correct nusach is “al hamichya v’al hakalkalah zogt men nisht.” He said, Look, I know its confusing being that it’s two languages and all, but trust me, this is the nusach I heard from the RBSH.October 20, 2009 12:47 am at 12:47 am #666339
Rabbosai, mir villen bentchen!October 20, 2009 12:57 am at 12:57 am #666340
A talmid muvhok of the Chofetz Chayim who spoke at my aufruf (Yiddish for being called up to the Torah), started with – “I will speak in English, although Yiddish is my own first tongue. I will do that because I heard from mt Rebbi that it isn’t the German in Yiddish that makes it a Jewish language, nor is it the Polish part. It is the lack of nevolo, usage of Chazal’s terminology, and ample reference to T’NaCH. If one speaks English in the same vein, it is just as holy a speech as the one in Yiddish. Which goy can comprehend a discussion spoken in English by a talmid chochom? And THIS is what makes any language holy.” Actually, this is exactly how R’ Hirsch explains “shelaw shinu es leshawnom”.October 20, 2009 1:07 am at 1:07 am #666342
cherrybim: “There is mucho hostility toward the holy Yiddish language out in the CR world. We’ve been through this before, and it was ugly.”
Posted 20 hours ago
Nothing has changed.October 20, 2009 1:29 am at 1:29 am #666343hudMember
**know of a whole group of people that have a school and only learn yiddish in perfection, have yiddish plays and thinks yiddish is more important than Torah, you who live in New York, do not know how bad the Yiddish impolse have given to other parts of the world as a matter of fact it has taken people away from Torah and Mitzvos**
srry 2 disagree w/ u again masca but wat is that?! u insinuating that the yiddish language has turned ppl off frm the Torah?
please enlighten me..i am very confused!
sammygol-there are quite a lot of frum yeshivot where I am from and i hav yet to hear wat u described. most yeshiva bochurim hav shiurim in yidish and do become fluent frm them. My family backgrnd isnt quite so yeshivish but whomever in my family went to yeshiva DID indeed pick up yiddish and i never heard of a/o laffing at a mistaken word. Generally many rosh yeshio’s or ebbeim either come frm more yeshiva/yeshivish backgrnds or hav BECOME more yeshivish through yeshiva and don normally hav the problem u jus described. Unless their very american and therefore speak in english.October 20, 2009 1:37 am at 1:37 am #666344hudMember
on yiddish in general, i would agree w/ pashuta yid. I would not call yiddish a holy language..it has no bibical source for it and other then it being the language of diaspora, it def is not even a Jewish-Religous language. It has been the language used for European Jewry throughout the ages and a language identified most for The Jew (bec of that)and that would prob b the reason ppl hold on it so strongly. It is def a nice language to knw bec of its Jewish roots and worth but def not “Holy”!October 20, 2009 2:04 am at 2:04 am #666346goody613Member
i once heard that the greatness of yiddish is that we show the germans that the language they used we use for kedusha and thats the biggest shtoch to the nazisOctober 20, 2009 2:12 am at 2:12 am #666347
Hud what mazca is probably referring to is the secular Yiddish world that most people don’t know too much about because the movement never got to strong in the states. In mexico for example you have Jewish irreligious schools that teach Yiddish and no Torah. You have Yiddish sport centers that put on plays without tziniut in Yiddish. There is a conservative shul that uses Yiddish.
So what we are really saying is that there is alot of Yiddish apikoresut but many people in the states have never seen it because somehow that movement never picked up there.
And another point these people think that by knowing Yiddish it exempts them from doing mitzvot because they know Yiddish!
It really is very sad.October 20, 2009 4:07 am at 4:07 am #666348
Cherrybim, my hostility to “Holy Yiddish” is because it isn’t holy. I have a right to follow the poseik hador, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, on this point, as well as my rebbe, a native yiddish speaker from Europe, who called it an “amaleikishe lashon”. The Mishna Brura didn’t call it a lashon hakodesh. Neither did the Aruch Hashulchan. to them, it was the lashon chol of the balagalos. Until I see a HALACHIC mekor for “heilige yiddish”, it’s bal tosif to say it. If someone made up a mitzvah and said pink bandannas were holy, I’d have the same hostility.
So let’s ignore the “hostility” and boil it down to one line- Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L paskened it’s NOT holy. He was the poseik hador for America. No such mitzvah .The end.October 20, 2009 4:16 am at 4:16 am #666349
Jothar, for this (allegedly) Reb Moshe ZT’L is your posek hador, but for Kollel not?October 20, 2009 4:20 am at 4:20 am #666350ronrsrMember
is Aramaic holy?October 20, 2009 4:22 am at 4:22 am #666351
Chasam Sofer EH 2:11
Maharil Diskin: “For generations we are accostomed to speaking Yiddish, not Loshon HaKodesh.”
Sefer Lev HaIvri (Hagaon Rav Akiva Yosef Shlezinger) says we should not change our spoken tongue from Yiddish, and he draws parallels with our usage of Yiddish in modern times, to our usage of Aramaic in ancient times.October 20, 2009 4:35 am at 4:35 am #666352
Ronsr why don’t you start a thread about aramaic?;)October 20, 2009 4:49 am at 4:49 am #666353
“is Aramaic holy?”
ronrsr – Yes.October 20, 2009 5:49 am at 5:49 am #666354mazcaMember
Well like always people in the United States think that you are in the center of the world but sorry to dissapoint you, you are not in the center of the world, and there are a lot of jews all over that is why is called diaspora. Well when the jews immigrated to the united States it was a country with a lot of public schools ,so believe it or not you were the lucky ones, because when jews from europe came to other contries there were not as many public schools as in the States so they brought with them the great Yiddish School with them, and brought a lot of apicurosut from Europe, so in the United States if somebody wanted to have their children in private school the only private schools they found were yeshivas but in places like in Mexico where we have a Tarbut and Yiddish movement that they brought with them from Europe did nothing but made the people that were frum less frum. So if you really think Yiddish has saved the jews, sorry to dissapoint you it has hurt people and a lot of people, here people speak better Yiddish than any rosh yeshiva, you could come here for classes and you wont be dissapointed but if you want to learn a little torah you are not going to find any in those schools. So open your eyes, do not fool yourselves it is beautiful to speak the languague of our ancestors but it is more beautiful to keep their mitzvot.October 20, 2009 7:27 am at 7:27 am #666355
If you DO bring the Lev HaIvri, quote his opinion on bringing Karbonos beZman haze, and how everyone opposed him in that regard.
The Kuzari died before Yiddish even existed, and if you read Chasam Sofer’s (and R’Akiva Eiger’s, for that matter) michtovim, you will see GERMAN, not Yiddish.October 20, 2009 10:01 am at 10:01 am #666356Feif UnParticipant
Joseph, that’s all very nice, but it doesn’t say Yiddish is holy.October 20, 2009 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #666357Daniel BreslauerMember
The plain and simple fact, which *nobody* here has brought yet, is that any language which is adopted by Jews (for Torah) becomes a language of kedusho. Yiddish is only used by Jews, nowadays almost exclusively by chareidim (and a few elderly secular Russians). Therefore, it does have an added kedushah which a language such as Chinese or Japanese lacks.
Whether Lakewood English (Yeshivish) has the same level of kedushah, I don’t know.
I myself speak, understand and read Yiddish very well, but unfortunately I cannot really write it. Unfortunately, many people – even chareidim – who speak Yiddish have lost the capability to write it.October 20, 2009 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #666358
sammygol, what does that position have to do with this? I hope you aren’t trying to discredit the Lev HaIvri based on something else he was opposed on. Reb Moshe to disagreed with many on Shabbos Clocks. So what?
The Kuzari writes that Avrohom Avinu, therefore, spoke 2 different languages. One for holy speech – that was Loshon HaKodesh, and the other for mundane speech – that, the Kuzari says was some non-Jewish language that Avrohom Avinu took and changed around a little on his own. And thats the idea behind Yiddish. It is a non-Jewish language that we took and twisted a bit in order to make it exclusive among us.
The Chasam Sofer EH 2:11 says that in ancient times Jews used to use a modified version of the non-Jewish languages for everyday (divrei chol) talk, similar to what Yiddish is.October 20, 2009 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #666359Daniel BreslauerMember
Sammygol: regarding the Chassam Sofer using German, let me clarify. Yiddish is basically a version of German. In the areas of the Chassam Sofer and related rabbonim, the main language was German.
I know some elderly chassidim here who speak German, with me, and with each other. Not Yiddish, but real German (though in a pre-WW2 style which would seem a bit archaic in Germany today). They are from Austria and areas right next to Austria.
The Rebbe of Dushinsky speaks German also. When my parents was here for my wedding, my father spoke with him in German (I’m not FFB). (The Rebbe came to my wedding, in Bnei Brak, though he wasn’t mesader kiddushin – that was the Clevelander Rebbe from Ra’anana, who is the rov of my wife’s family.)October 20, 2009 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #666360
Of course, one would think that in this day and age, if we feel that we need another language besides Hebrew, we should pick one equaly common to all of Clal Yisrael.
However, it is all a moot point. You want to speak Yiddish? Go right ahead. You can communicate with those who also speak the language. Of course, that means that for most day-to-day activities, you will not be communicating, as you certainly will have some trouble conducting your business in Yiddish, if it outside of Brookly, Lakewood, Bnei Brak, or certain neighborhoods of Yerushalayim.October 20, 2009 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #666361
Daniel Breslauer – If you can read Yiddish, why can’t you write it also? Try to get a hold of “Briefen Shteller”, a Yiddish primer of long ago.
Starwolf – Try reading any of the Apikorsim’s Yiddish stories or poetry; in addition to knowing the language, unless you are fluent in Tanach and minhagim and halacha of Shuchan Aruch that were practiced by everyone amalege tzeiten, you’re not going to understand anything.
Point is: You can’t speak this language without incorporating holy idioms and words connoting all aspects of Yiddishkeit.October 20, 2009 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #666362cantoresqMember
My favorite Yiddish malapropism concerned the gabbai in a certain shtible in Queens. He announced the rabbi’s shiur, asking people to make the effort to attend, “als di Rov alein ken nisht lernen”October 20, 2009 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #666363
Maran Hagoen Rav Elazar Shach told American educators that Yeshiva boys should be taught Chumash in Yiddish, even if the boys speak English amongst themselves. He furtermore said that both boys and girls should learn to be comfortable in Yiddish. He also said that Yiddish is spoken by “all jews” (that is his phrase).
I guess according to Rav Shach, I’m not Jewish. 🙁
The WolfOctober 20, 2009 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #666364
You can always convert.October 20, 2009 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #666365
You can always convert.
Cool. Where do I sign up. Seriously.
The WolfOctober 20, 2009 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #666366
In Bnei Brak.
First you’ll need to want it though. That would include deleting almost all your blog posts, after coming to terms with Rav Shach’s teachings.
Now, please, just sign across the dotted lines: ________________________________
🙂October 20, 2009 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #666367mazcaMember
All jews must speak Yiddish so if a jew is sephardy and never heard Yiddish. Is he jewish?October 20, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #666368
In Bnei Brak.
B’nei Brak is the only place I can convert? I highly doubt that.
The WolfOctober 20, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #666369
I think we Torah Jews should bring back loshon ho’aramis (Aramaic) as a Torah language which all Jews will then understand, and which will not be the tainted and poisoned language which defiles loshon hakoidesh in EY. Yiddish does exclude many, and a revived Aramaic would make Gemara study far easier.October 20, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #666370
Hey, Bear, what a good idea. Meanwhile, I know of several Aramit courses available at Universities in Israel, the US, and Europe. Of course, classes are usually mixed….October 20, 2009 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #666371
And such “Aramit”, which has about as much connection with the Aramaic of the Gemoro as the old men’s fragrance “Aramis” has with loshon ho’aramis is not at all taught leshem shomayim, nor does it include words that we would need to come up with for everyday life. Such classes are also available at the “Almost Jewish Theological Cemetery” and even at “Hebrew National Union College”.October 20, 2009 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #666372
Well, if you don’t like those classes, don’t take them.
Either prepare a course of study yourself, or wait for the Yeshivot to do it.
If the latter, don’t hold your breath. Bears don’t look so good in that shade of blue.October 20, 2009 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #666373
It is not a matter of a course of study. It is a matter of a few yeshivas or communities setting out to use it, perhaps starting with an emphasis on Unkelos. It is also a semi-serious suggestion.
Spoken vernacular cannot be handed down from an ivory tower university. It has to start in the street, and BH the frum street is the beis hamedrash.October 20, 2009 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #666374SJSinNYCMember
Kilo, I’ve been saying that for years.
However, I guarantee many people will be against it because it will make gemora too easy for women to learn.October 20, 2009 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #666375mepalMember
SJS: And what about Artscroll’s gemora’s? If all else fails, we can try those…
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