October 28, 2009 3:45 am at 3:45 am #666489
Koma, the Gemara in Sanhedrin says that Hashem offered the torah to the Jews in Hebrew and Aramaic. They chose Hebrew. the Artscroll (or is it Metsudah?) footnote by “veromamtanu mikol haleshonos” is that Hashem elevated Hebrew when he chose the Jews. Be that as it may, the seforim hakedoshim say that there is a special merit to Lashon Hakodesh, and the gemara paskens that Sifrei kodesh can only be written in lashon hakodesh or Greek. The Ramban can’t be contradicting all those gemaras. He still calls it lashon hakodesh. Furthermore, the medrash says the world was created in lashon hakodesh. It still is the holy tongue.October 28, 2009 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #666490
Ktzoys is still laughing his head off at the humor thread he started which turned serious. A groyse shkoyach for the laugh!
Back to real Torah and mitzvos.October 28, 2009 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #666491
Und vos is azoi schlecht, genoi, mit lachen nor a bissel?October 29, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #666492komaMember
Jothar, you are mosif and not soser. Clearly, the Imahos spoke the same language as Uncle Lavan, and so the mamaloshen of the shvotim was the same. In tune with the Ramban, you can say we picked up the lashon Hakodesh on our way to Har Sinai. It is also instuctive that HKBH offered the option of Aramis.Perhaps because that was our native toungue? Ivrit was actually the best option with the fourteen verb moods and the moveable vowelation. Why would the Canaanites have such a gift? One teirutz, it was a holdover from dor Haflaga. Other teirutz, there is a deah that the chet ham’raglim was compounded because it sealed the fate of the Canaanites. Had they not had the forty year delay in meeting the Jews, they could have done tshuva!October 29, 2009 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #666493
So Lovon didn’t speak Yiddish? Go figure….October 29, 2009 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #666494
I once heard a vort from Rav Bruk ZT”L that Lavan called it yegar sahadusa, Yaakov Called it Gal Eid. Then Lavan called it Gal Eid. Yaakov stood up for lashon hakodesh, and Lavan acquiesced.October 29, 2009 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #666495Pashuteh YidMember
One thing I will say about Yiddish is that no other language has a word like Oisvarf. I never knew exactly what it means, but it is my favorite word. Everybody should say Oisvarf three times a day.October 29, 2009 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #666496
The confusion arises when an Oisvorf has an Oifruf.October 29, 2009 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #666497Pashuteh YidMember
Sammy, the modern people call it Osevarf. The Sephardim call it Otevarf.October 29, 2009 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #666498
Ai-ai-ai (sometimes spelled “ai-yi-yi”) – an exclamation of strong emotion
Bagel – a hard ring-shaped bread roll
Blintz – a sweet cheese-filled crepe (from Yiddish blintse)
Bubkes (also spelled “bupkis”) – nothing, as in He isn’t worth bubkes (from Yiddish bobkes ‘little beans’)
Chutzpah – audacity, effrontery (from Yiddish khutspe)
Genug – enough
Gonef – thief (from Yiddish ganef, from Hebrew ganav)
Klutz – clumsy person (perhaps from Yiddish klots ‘wooden beam’)
Kosher – conforming to Jewish dietary laws. Slang: appropriate, legitimate.
Kvell – beam/ be proud
Kvetch – complain (from Yiddish kvetshn ‘press, squeeze’)
Lox – smoked salmon (from Yiddish laks ‘salmon’)
Macher – big shot, important person (e.g. within an organization)
Maven – expert (from Yiddish meyvn, from Hebrew mevin ‘one who understands’)
Mazel – luck
Mazel tov! – congratulations! (literally, ‘good luck’, from Hebrew)
Megillah – a long, document or discourse (from Yiddish megile, from Hebrew megillah ‘scroll’)
Mensch – an upright man; a decent human being (from Yiddish mentsh ‘person’)
Meshuga – crazy
Mishegoss – insane situation, irrationality (from Yiddish meshugas, from meshuge ‘crazy’)
Mishmosh – hodgepodge (from Yiddish mishmash)
Mishpucha – family (from Yiddish mishpokhe)
Nachas – pride (usage: I have nachas from you)
Nosh – snack (from Yiddish nashn)
Nudnik – pest, “pain in the neck”
Oy vey – Oh no! (literally, ‘Oh, pain!’)
Oy gevalt – Oh no! (from Yiddish gvald ’emergency’)
Plotz – to burst, as from strong emotion: “I was so angry, I thought I’d plotz!” (from Yiddish platsn ‘to crack’)
Shlemiel – an inept, clumsy person
Shlemazl – unlucky person (from Yiddish shlimazl, from German schlimm ‘bad’ and Yiddish mazl ‘luck’). The difference between a shlemiel and a schlemazl is described through the aphorism, “A shlemiel is somebody who often spills his soup; a shlemazl is the person the soup lands on.”
Shlep – to drag (an object)
Shmeer – to spread, e.g. the cream cheese on your bagel
Shnoz – nose (possibly from Yiddish shnoits ‘snout’)
Shtick – comic theme (from Yiddish shtik ‘piece, whims’)
Shpiel – a lengthy talk (from Yiddish shpil ‘play’)
Shtum – quiet (from Yiddish shtum ‘mute’)
Tsuris – troubles (from Yiddish tsores)October 30, 2009 9:36 am at 9:36 am #666499
The Oisvorfer Rov is the rov hatzoir of Creedmoor, and he will take over in the event the Admou”r is forced to switch to another of his multiple personalities.
At present, he is the rov of Kehillas Koidesh Oisvorf, named for a town in the old Austro-Hungarian Empire that was known for pool halls, parking lots, hookah cafes and the like. These attractions often tempted teens from the yeshivas of neighboring Szarkonosvary, the stronghold of the Schmoigerman rabbinic dynasty until they held the distinction of being the first Jews expelled from Hungary not for anti-Semitic reasons but rather because they were operating illicit enterprises including their own currency printing plant.October 30, 2009 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #666500October 30, 2009 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #666502
Is there a federal penitentiary there that is realted to speaking Yiddish??October 31, 2009 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #666504
Der Admou”r’s Creedmoor is not in North Carolina. Try another Wiki article.November 1, 2009 3:26 am at 3:26 am #666506mazcaMember
??November 2, 2009 4:22 am at 4:22 am #666507
The other question becomes pseudoHebrew words which are Yiddish am haratzus, like “Shabbosim”, “Brissim” and “zechusim”. Does one get a mitzvah for saying these words instead of Shabasos, Brisos and Zechuyos?November 2, 2009 4:32 am at 4:32 am #666508
Only those who are wrapped in Turkish wool Taleisim do.November 2, 2009 5:32 am at 5:32 am #666509
Language translates into location focus.
English means London is the center of the world.
Yiddish makes eastern Europe the center focus.
Hebrew and even “modern” Hebrew makes Jerusalem the center of the world.
Yaacov did not want to buried in Egypt, so that there would not be a focus location in Egypt, but in Hevron.
Mount Sinai after Matan Torah never became a reference point.
By hiding where Moshe is buried, G-d prevented us from having a reference point outside Eretz Yisroel.
Goshen is not a reference point. Where we crosed the Red Sea is not a reference point.
210 years in Egypt and 40 years in desert, zero reference points.
But the Avos before them created many reference points.November 2, 2009 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #666511
Far vos redst du Shtusim 🙂November 2, 2009 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #666512
I think this is going beyond the pale. Some of us, even those that don’t know Yiddish, don’t appreciate a “joke” about the Kedoshim in Europe. You must be very young to think this is funny…November 2, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #666513cherrybimParticipant
Josh31 – Someone forgot to tell 25,000 making the annual pilgrimage to Uman.November 2, 2009 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #666514
Bemused–I was NOT making a joke, nor am I young. A number of those Nefashot in Europe were my realtives, whom I never had a chance to meet.
My comment was about making Eastern Eruope a place to be idealized-swhich is something that I will never undeerstand. It is certainly not people of my hashkafa who look back to Poland, Lithuania, the Ukraine, and Hungary with nostalgia–nor do I beleive that the language spoken there is anything to be idealized.
If you don’t like it that I find the use of such words as “taleisim” amusing–well, too bad.November 2, 2009 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #666515
I don’t know where “taleisim” comes in, for starters; my comment did not reference your exciting pet peeve. Secondly, if you weren’t “making a joke”, you have a very poor manner of communication. “Too bad” in your last sentence simply serves to reinforce the fact that you come across as juvenile. You can tell us you’re 65, or 72; and I’m William Sutton. Such is the nature of the internet.
And I think you should refrain from referencing the Kedoshim in your rants, in your attempts to be oh so humorous. Feh.November 2, 2009 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #666517
Cherrybim, like Yosef the Bresslover Rebbe needs to be re-interred in Israel.November 3, 2009 12:17 am at 12:17 am #666518cherrybimParticipant
It was Yosef’s choice to to be buried in Eretz C’naan. It was the Bresslover Rebbe’s choice to be buried and to stay in Uman.November 3, 2009 1:37 am at 1:37 am #666519
One doesn’t simply disinter a person, especially if his own last wish was to be buried in a particular place. A rebbe isn’t some chair, to be cut into little pieces and moved to another country.November 3, 2009 4:34 am at 4:34 am #666520
Regarding disenternment and reinternment in Israel-It is quite possible that Rebbe Nachman would have chosen Israel had he made his decision today. Since he did not, his wishes should be respected, even if this causes inconvenience to his followers.
I will be sure to come to you for communications lessons, right after I come to you for a shiur in Mussar. This may take some time, so you should not quit your day job.November 3, 2009 5:53 am at 5:53 am #666522
Was it the desire of the Bresslover Rebbe to have 25,000 Jewish men leave their families every year, most of them leaving the real Eretz HaKodesh for Rosh HaShana?
According to tradition all buried bodies outside Eretz Yisroel have to first come there before actual restoration to life.November 3, 2009 6:16 am at 6:16 am #666523
Shulchan Aruch/Yoreh Deah/363 discusses the general prohibition of reburial.
…but to Eretz Yisroel is an exception.
Exactly how it applies in practice I do not know.November 3, 2009 7:44 am at 7:44 am #666524
I have no idea of what Rebbe Nachman desired, except for his known wish to be buried in Uman.
Since we do have some record of that wish, it would be presumptuous of me to suggest anything contrary
to it. Of course, I have no personal stake in the matter, since I am not A Breslover. Personally, suspect that Josh31 is correct about the idea of people leaving their families for Rosh Hashana, but the ways of Hasidim are strange to me.November 3, 2009 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #666525mazcaMember
If Eretz Isroal was good for Yosef why not for the Breslevers.November 3, 2009 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #666526
Only a set of total and complete meshuggeners of NaNach affiliation want to have Rabbi Nachman ZYA’s remains transferred to EY. The rest of Breslov and even many NaNachs laugh at these people even though they have approached politicians in the medine for assistance.
We do not disrespect the wishes of the niftar especially when it is someone on the madreiga of a Rabbi Nachman.
And yes, Rabbi Nachman made it clear that whoever visits his tziun, in Uman, will be pulled out of Gehennom. He chose Uman because it was a makom kodosh, sanctified by Jewish blood. Such wishes are not to be disrespected, plain and simple.November 3, 2009 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #666527
For someone with your needs, I think I’ll do it for free. See you then.November 3, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #666528
A thread started with decrying the demise of a language, after stretching itself in every possible direction, from quotes to misquotes, from stories of the languages supposed holiness to tales of holy flying horses, from sensible debates to debates about the senseless, ends with discussion of reburial in Eretz Yisroel. It definitely does appear that a jargon buried in the USA is being reinterred in the Holy Land. This is even more poetic than the language itself ever was.November 3, 2009 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #666529
“This is even more poetic than the language itself ever was”
Good line :).November 3, 2009 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #666531
Yiddish is hardly buried, nisht in Americhke in nisht in Eretz Yisroel. Never a formal language, it is just being redefined in a new US/EY version that differs from its European predecessors just as Ingarish Yiddish in either its US or EY or older version differs from the Yiddish spoken in Lita/White Russia/Ukraine as transplanted abroad after the churban.
English means London is the center of the world.
ROTFL. When someone here in Ukraine wants to speak English with me it is because he wants to understand American music, American news programs, American internet sites. He isn’t interested in British English.
And the preservation of Yiddish, though it should not be done in a way that leaves anyone out, is the preservation and replanting of the very vibrant life of the Torah communities that Hitler and Stalin, zol zayn bren’n in der erd, almost succeeded to destroy.
Our focus on EY is not speaking a bastardized tongue invented by a koifer and mumar lehachis. It is also not trying to speak laha”k which may or may not have been an everyday language.
Instead, our focus on EY is “Vesechezeyno eyneynu beshuvcho leTzioin berachamim”. We know that the return to Tzion of the tzioinim was not berachamim, not bechasdei Hashem as it must be to be legitimate, it was by force, in the way of the baryoinim and the Sicarii.
I speak Ivrit because I need it to speak to Jews who are most comfortable speaking it, not because it is part of my identity. I see it as an imposition, and ideally I would respond to anyone who spoke to me in Hebrew with: “Ich halt nisht by danne tryfe medine, ich red nisht danne tryfer loshon!” And when I am in EY, older North African Jews feel very respected when I speak to them in French because it reminds them of how things were before the tzioinim uprooted their peaceful existence, that only would have been more peaceful had the medine never come to be to tear them out by their roots to become despised “frenkim’ in EY.
I speak Yiddish because it is the language in which my Rebbe ZYA gave over his Toras haChassidus, and it is the language of those of the older generation who preserved the spark of that Toras haChassidus even when serving sentences of 10, 17, 20 years in the Gulag.
And thanks to Lipa, I can understand and even attempt to communicate in the Yiddish spoken by those hyliger Yidden who managed to survive Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Matthausen, Majdanek, Sobibor and the ghettos, yet come out with their emunah intact or even strengthened, to be able to rebuild their lives and their communities afresh.November 3, 2009 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #666534
I looked the Yoreh Deah 363 and the Noseh Kalim (commentaries).
The land of Israel affords atonement, according to ther Rema if that is not possible then some earth from Israel can be put in the grave.
According to the Pischei Teshuva, the sons can bury their father in Israel against his wishes unless he gave a specific “Tzavaah” not to be buried in Israel.
Most important, the Shulchan Aruch and the commentaries were written before this antizionism crept into our Torah community. Some who want to elevate Yiddish nowadays are driven by this antizionism to deligitimize anything that is a result of zionists including Pentium processors.
EDITEDNovember 3, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #666535
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL the SA and Tur and Nose Keilim and Remo and SA HaRav etc etc were written long, long before the damage caused by the movement called zionism which has NOTHING to do with chibas Tzion! And Rabbi Nachman GAVE A SPECIFIC TZAVOOH to be buried in Uman! This is a well known fact.
The Pentium when it first came out delegitimized itself as it was defective. I remember this vividly because I postponed a computer purchase until the error was corrected. What I don’t know is whether this error was made by R&D in the medine because I don’t really know how much input the Intel lab there really had on the Pentium and how much is propaganda. (In this case I don’t mind because as the Satmarer Rov ZYA pointed out, for a goy hating the state is hating Jews, and if Arab and European soinim are led to believe that Jews anywhere gave them their basic technology needs, so be it).
What I do know is that most of the top level work is done in the US and the Far East where the brains and ambition really are, and the often Russian educated scientists in EY do the boring detail work. The top entrepreneurs from EY who have major successes have their headquarters in the US, a few scientists in EY, and what can be done in India is done there.November 3, 2009 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #666536
Interesting quote from the Yated (parshas Noach), in the middle of the article about Rav Yisroel Kanarek ZT”L from Peekskill (page 38):
He also accustomed himself to speak to the Bochurim in English because he felt that in that way he could have a much greater influence on them. He once said, “The reason many of the roshei yeshivah who came to America from before World War II were not as successful at transmitting the unique system of the European yeshivos to America, was because of the language barrier between them and the bochurim. The fact that they did not know English created a situation in which the they could not properly communicate with each other. Rav Aharon kotler was th only person who, by sheer power of his fiery personality, was able to penetrate and force his will on the American community despite the fact that he did not speak English.”November 3, 2009 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #666537
Bear downplays any economic achievement in Israel.
I work in Hi Tech and nobody shares this view.
Almost every business magazine article about Israel is positive.
Even Israel’s enemies recognize these achievements.
The 10 Meraglim had more good to say about Israel than Bear does.November 3, 2009 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #666538
A600KiloBear is incorrect about Israeli entrepreneurship.
EDITEDNovember 3, 2009 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #666539
I don’t have time to post cold, hard facts that would show once and for all that while some firms start off in EY, the really big ones have to move out of there to grow to world beater size.
Teva Pharmaceuticals is huge. Why? Because it bought, among other firms, the firm that made the generic erythromycin, to say nothing of the hydrogen peroxide, that I was treated with 35 years ago. That is, an old, established American firm, along with old, established Irish, Hungarian etc firms.
I could go on and on with more examples like this.
EY is a stifling environment for business, and any brainpower advantages pale now when compared to the Far East.
In any case, EY’s finest and most enterprising are in the US, Eastern Europe, the Far East and everywhere else. So are the Israeli crime families. I was embarrassed to speak Ivrit in Budapest because everyone else who did in the center of the city was visibly involved in the gambling or illicit entertainment trade.November 3, 2009 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #666540
“the really big ones have to move out of there to grow to world beater size”
Nowadays all large firms, especially hi tech have to have operations in several countries. Israel is considered an important country to have operations there by the leading hi tech firms such as IBM, HP, TI and Intel.
EDITEDNovember 4, 2009 5:01 am at 5:01 am #666541
There is no denying that Israel has more complicated and restrictive tax laws than the US. That is the principal reason that many Israeli companies establish their HQs in the US. However, laws change, and things have gotten much better than they were several decades agao. There are pelnty of firms that start here, and stay here.
Of course, high taxes are a problem here, but most Israelis understand that we have problems faced by few other countries. We have a relatively small population, with huge defense needs, and huge infrastructure needs. We have a high number of elderly and children, and universal health care. We also have a large and growing segment of the population that contributes nothing to the economy in the way of production, and a system that encourages young people to join that system.November 4, 2009 9:56 am at 9:56 am #666542
That segment of the population is forced by discriminatory laws to avoid productive labor; nevertheless it has produced several business tycoons mainly in real estate, diamonds and even biotech – most of whom have large operations outside the country. And we all know that this segment of the population, when not faced with discriminatory laws, is among the most productive and most self-reliant in the world. (that is unless you mean the leftist artists of Sheinkin and lazy, nasty bureaucratic drones of the government offices that stifle enterprise, and not the haredi sector, which you know very well is trying to find ways to break out of the cycle set up for them by the “pen yirbu” policies of the state.)
On the other hand, the state depends on US aid for defense and is therefore beholden to US dictates. It is independent in terms of domestic policy, but not in terms of foreign policy or defense. This is again OK with me because a state in Eretz Yisroel that is not run al pi Torah is a toeva and I prefer American oversight given the corruption, immaturity and lack of statesmanship of the politicians of the medine.
With the present administration in the US being biased toward a European type view of the Middle East, this endangers the safety of Jews everywhere. Sadly, even with the results of yesterday’s gubernatorial races in NJ and VA, I predict that the present administration will be elected to another term only because no clear alternative seems to be available and more and more “Middle Americans” want the expansion of a nanny state so that they can do less and get more.
Once again I remind you that when your government destroyed shuls in Gaza, hooligans in Kiev started up with Jews there. Why? Because they see that the state, which they mistakenly conflate with Jews (the rabbis of Kiev are not tzioinim) destroys Jewish property, they celebrate and figure they can do the same because Jews are weak.
That is why I am prouder that I speak, albeit with many errors and Anglicisms, the language spoken by my friends’ parents and grandparents who stayed frum and spread Yiddishkeit in the Soviet Union during the worst of times, as opposed to being so fluent in the bastardized tongue of Ben-Yehuda that I am asked why I do not have a passport of the state every time I am questioned by El Al security both at my port of departure and upon arrival in Lod Airport.November 4, 2009 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #666543
Anybody, Hareidi or not, can set up a business in Israel. How could the government stop you? Failure to do military servicde no longer carries the stigma that it once did.
What does carry a stigma is making false statements. If you stated that you wish to defer military service because of full-time learning, and then prsent the govt. with evidence that you are not learning full-time–well, what do you expect them to do? Give you shlishi for sheker?
Still many Hareidim do manage to set up businesses, even without service in the military. In general, what they will not get (or have less of a chance of getting) is govt. subsidies that are reserved for those who did perform some service to the state. And correctly so.
I do not see any evidence that the Hareidi sector is trying to break out of the cycle. Many national service programs have been proposed for Hareidim, all involving service exclusively in the hareidi sectors of society. None of them have made it off the drawing board, as influencial Rabbanim in Bnei Brak have let it be know that they will oppose such programs tooth and nail. So please pardon my lack of sympathy. They want conditions that no other sector of society has; while enjoying all th4e benefits and paying none of the price of membership in that society. And before you say that the membership in society is marginal–that is by their choice. Certainly when we come down to the nitty-griity–they benefit greatly. When the leaders of the Eida Hareidit go into Hadassa Hospital, they are not presented with a large bill. They receive exactly the same conditions as those who have been paying bituach leumi and health insurance for decades.
Regarding the State of Israel not being completely independent because of the amount of foreign aid–yep, that’s reality for you. I also have no problem with the US oversight, even if I disagree on many points. You gotta pay the piper.
As far as the Israeli govt.’s policies in Gaza, you are free to agree or disagree with it. However, don’t expect to have any influence whatsoever if you don’t vote. Since you consider the state a toeva, it is just as well.November 4, 2009 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #666544
The Israeli government legally prevents many frum folks from getting jobs.
Frum folks in the Holy Land are subject to the same tax laws as anyone else. They pay the same rates, but don’t receive many of the benefits. Many they are denied (as above) and many they refuse to accept (i.e. many frum schools that refuseto accept government funds they are entitled to by law.) So there is no reason they should benefit any less from the hospital.
And the point about Gaza was the Israeli government is already down to destroying religious zionists!November 4, 2009 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #666545
What exactly do Israeli business restrictions have to do with Yiddish? At least with blue shirts there was some thin connection.November 4, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #666546
sammy: Welcome to the coffee room!November 4, 2009 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #666547
About 10 years ago Prime Minister Netanyahu broke away from socialist model and made Israel nuch more business friendly. Hi tech in Israel took off from then on.
Yesterday, I talked about relocating the Kever of the Bresslover Rebbe to Israel, and I suddenly had a Bear on my tail. This led to businesses in Israel.
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