The Importance of Yiddish

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    I am a citizen of the country which pays for your medine as well as a member of a community which sends much in moral and monetary support to it. Baal hameah hu baal hadeah (ver hot de maya hot de daya ven iz kim tzi gelt).

    More importantly, the incompetence and indecisiveness of its memsheles zadoin jeopardizes my life and the lives of many Jews all over the world.

    This anti-Semitism got out of hand when people saw that the schlimazel medine can neither achieve decisive victory nor make lasting peace. They also realized that the state is just exacerbating Muslim violence because it cannot make any proper decisions to do its share to end it one way or the other.

    And why is that? Because a non Torah entity in Eretz Yisroel is as fitting as a loaf of bread on the Seder table!


    Mezonos Maven posted: “The Israeli government legally prevents many frum folks from getting jobs.

    Frum folks in the Holy Land are subject to the same tax laws as anyone else. They pay the same rates, but don’t receive many of the benefits. Many they are denied (as above) and many they refuse to accept (i.e. many frum schools that refuseto accept government funds they are entitled to by law.) So there is no reason they should benefit any less from the hospital.

    And the point about Gaza was the Israeli government is already down to destroying religious zionists! “

    How does the government limit those “frum folks” from getting jobs? By limiting their education to 7th grade English and math–at best. Sorry-I am afraid those frum folks do that to themselves.

    Inf act, the govt. has many training programs in place, including several high-tech ones, exclusively for Hareidi men–such as the Israel Space Agency’s program for satellite data analysis. Hmmm, where else can a nice Yeshiva boy (without a college education) get into a program like that? The US? But it is always nice to be able to blame someone esle for one’s woes–without taking any responsibility for one’s own actions.

    Actually, those frum folks are not subject to the same tax laws as they are exempt from paying city and property taxes in many places. And many refuse to pay bituach leumi, which pays for national health care–but still receive that health care.


    A 600KiloBear cannot decide which he prefers–simply to condemn the State for Zionism–or to condemn the State for not be assertive enough in its nationalism. I thoroughly enjoy this little problem.

    I am also a citizen of the US. If you don’t like your tax money paying for Israel’s defense needs (which is by far the recipient of most US aid), lobby your congressperson. I’m sure you can find others who agree with you, and may you enjoy their company. As far as your community’s support- the vast majority of Hareidim support only Hareidi institutions. While Chabad does do other community work, it is one of very few Hareidi groups that does so. That still is not comparable to dedicating years of your life in National Service, and it does not come close to comaparing to putting your life on the line in the IDF.

    Again, if you think that the government is incompetent or evil–we live in a democracy, and the government can be changed. Of course, there is that small matter of who gets to participate. Luckily, the law as it currently stands ensures that only those who are citizens, and are in the country on election day, may vote.


    starwolf – Are there not strict limitations to what a person who did not serve in the Israeli military can work as? Those are the limitations I am referring to in the government preventing frum folks from working.

    “Actually, those frum folks are not subject to the same tax laws as they are exempt from paying city and property taxes in many places. And many refuse to pay bituach leumi, which pays for national health care–but still receive that health care.”

    The municipalities have an exemption for frum people from paying city and property tax? Or rather the frum people qualify for some exemptions that are available to all under the law?

    And only frum folks refuse to pay bituach leumi? Or do non-frum folks refuse as well?


    Yes, there are limitations to what a person who did not serve in the IDF (or do sherut leumi, in the case of women) can work at. But those limitation are becoming less and less. At one time, one could not be hired by the govt (which controlled many jobs), and many other sectors.

    Today, there are few sectors in which someone who has not served can work. Many of them are security-related, of course.

    However, in many cases, someone who has served will get preference over someone who has not (all other qualifications being equal). Again, this depends on the job sector. In private business, one can hire who one likes, as long as the person is a citizen or legal resident with the correct type of visa. Many private businesses will still prefer people who have served, of course. But by no means all.

    {Note on military service: I find the situation strange. For years, the only men who did not serve were the hareidim and those with criminal records. (There were times when the IDF would not take soemone who did not finish high school or the equivalent.) During the time of Raful’s tenure as Chief of Staff, he instituted the program of “noar Raful” in which even youths with criminal records were drafted. Raful’s theory was that the IDF’s job, in addition to defending the country, was to provide a basis for socialization–so that people from all sectors of society could meet each other and interact. Subsequent Chiefs of Staff have felt differently–that the IDF’s only job is to defend the country, and anything else simply distracts form the main effort. Currently, we are somewhere in the middle between those 2 views, but leaning toward Raful.

    So the major sector of non-servers was the hareidim. Then, with the rise of the “me generation”, one saw disaffected childern of the Israeli artisitc elite, who avoided service, and were proud of it. There were not many of these folks. The most famous is Aviv Gefen, who is a musician. This kind of legitimized nonservice in the eyes of many Israelis. However, they are still a small minority, and most Israelis still regard nonservice with disdain-whoever is not serving–Hareidi or disaffected youth–it does not matter.}

    As far as tax exemptions go, of course they are not framed as “for frum people”. How can a bureaucrat tell who is frum? So the laws (some national, some municipality) are framed according to number of children, or if the father learns in kollel (the latter, of course, limiting the discounts to frum people.)

    REgarding bituach leumi–those frum folks (not all chareidim by any means) that refuse to pay do so on ideological grounds. No other sector gets that privilege. This may be because the govt does not want to take the trouble to fight it.



    Muslims the world over know that the Waqf in Y-m protects chas vesholom their lehavdil holy places.

    Torah Jews the world over know that the medine turns a blind eye to desecration of our mekoimois hakedoishim, and in some cases such as kever Yosef, has even turned them over to the unclean hands of the Muslims for further desecration.

    And the same medine has been responsible for the shmad of hundreds of thousands of Yidden through forced secularization and anti-Torah education.

    Moshiach is the only desired successor, as any other solution to the problems caused by the medine could lead to even worse disaster. However, at this point, with the medine turning even American opinion against its continued occupation of Eretz Yisroel, I would not be surprised if all or most of the medine is peacefully dismantled in the same way Gush Katif, Nisanit etc were peacefully dismantled.

    And if that happens, our communities, the Torah communities, will be the ones left holding the bag of absorbing the refugees from the medine. Of course we have already had experience, albeit limited, in turning Israelis back into Jews, but it could just be that Moshiach will only come after the land vomits out its sinful inhabitants, who then do tshuva outside the land so that they can be prepared when they do return with malchus beis Dovid. It is not what I or anyone else except maybe Yisroel Dovid Weiss wants or looks forward to, but it is not a far-fetched scenario especially if Obama is re-elected.

    As for bituach leumi, the bulk of haredim do pay and do receive. Even a teacher in a Chinuch Atzmai religious school who supports her husband in kollel is required to pay all taxes including bituach leumi. The ones who do not are the Eda HaCharedis, who have been there long before the medine and do not recognize it at all.

    I would have preferred that the state never came to be.

    However, once it does exist and occupies the Land, it has a responsibility to Jews to preserve the integrity of the Land and its JEWISH inhabitants. Since that is possible only with Torah, the tzionish venture was doomed from day one. There is no Jewish nationalism except Torah, and any sort of secular Jewish identity, be it tzioinus or chicken soup and matzo ball post immigrant US secular Jewish culture, is doomed to fail. The latter has clearly failed and exists only as an object of scorn in the novels of menuvalim like Philip Roth (and it indeed should be an object of mockery), whereas the former is like a dying man who manages to show some strength before he passes on.

    The medine boasts of its strong shekel, but that is what will bring on the next recession as jobs move to cheaper India because a tiny country like the medine must export and have cheap exports to survive. This next recession combined with the tidal wave of opposition to the medine among the nations may well be the death knell of the medine which in turn means Moshiach or bust.


    Bear position on Israel (or EY) is far to the right of that of Agudah and even of Satmar and dangerously close to the Nut Kases that visited Yimach Shemo.

    Perhaps we are obligated to tear Kri-ah when we hear such denigration of the Jewish Yishuv???


    Actually Bear’s position on the State is pretty tame, slightly right-of-center.

    And from his comments it is obvious he is a supporter of the Jewish Yishuv (?????? ????). It is the Non-Jewish “Yishuv” that he, like all Torah Jewry, opposes.


    Mezonos Maven posted: “Actually Bear’s position on the State is pretty tame, slightly right-of-center.

    And from his comments it is obvious he is a supporter of the Jewish Yishuv (?????? ????). It is the Non-Jewish “Yishuv” that he, like all Torah Jewry, opposes.”

    So Mezonos Maven, by posting that ALL Torah Jewry opposes the Yishuv, exculdes all of the Mamlachti Dati, Mizrachi movement, and everyone involved from Rav Kalisher on down from being included in Torah Jewry.

    I wonder if your exclusionary idea of Torah Jewry is shared by your Rabbanim. If so, perhaps it is time for a complete break between Hareidi Judaism and MO Judaism. You go your way, we’ll go ours. You learn your way, we will learn our way. You support your institutions–and we will support ours.

    A complete divorce. The only problem with that is that, as with any divorce, the mizbeach cries.


    starwolf, There is no such thing as “Hareidi” Judaism. That is a term invented by outsiders. Hareidi Judaism is not a movement. It is synonymous with the Judaism that was established at Har Sinai.


    Mezonos Maven,

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    Don’t expect me to share it.


    MM, anybody who knows even a drop of Jewish history would know that the Jews at Har Sinai all the way until fairly recently, were in no way Charedi.


    sharer, That is precisely what I stated. There is no such thing as “Chareidi”. Not then, and not now. See my above remarks.


    P.S. to sharer: You previously claimed in the MO thread that you will ignore my future posts. I see though the real “truth” still painfully penetrates into you. 🙂


    Mezonos Maven, you may think that “There is no such thing as “Chareidi”. Nevertheless, a large group of people identify themselves as such today. Whether that stream of Judaism is the best representation of Har Sinai is the point of contention.

    My original point to you was your assertion that all Torah Jews oppose the Yishuv.

    First of all, you call it the “non-Jewish Yishuv”. Halachically, the leaders and the majority of inhabitants of this country are just as much part of clal Yisrael as anyone alive today.

    Your other implication is that nobody who does support the State can be a Torah Jew. I hardly need bother posting that the chutzpah of this is enormous–who are you to say that someone is not a Torah Jew? Who set you up as a shofet of people who you do not know? Tell me, what do you think of Rav Kook? Was he not a Torah Jew? How about Rav Ovadia Yosef? Rav Shear-Yishuv Cohen?


    No, you stated that it is synonymous with the Judaism from Har sinai, that is incorrect.


    Bear: We. the faithful in EY rely on the land vomiting out those which it can’t abide. All that remain, we are dan lkaf zchus that there is a purpose in them being here. As to your disdain for the spoken language, it too has been zocheh. I was taught by my rebbes to never ignore the Mussar of the Neviim, and though Novi is not a strong suit of the yeshivish velt, we are exposed to it through the Haftoros. One little book we read on YK is Yonah, who when asked ‘1) what is your profession, 2) from where have you come 3) What is your ‘medina’ and 4) of what nation are you, had one succinct and awsome answer: IVRI ANOCHI! AND I SERVE YOU KNOW WHO!


    starwolf, Once again you completely missed the boat. Sure, society by its imposition identifies some people as Chareidi. And as a matter of verbal convenience some of those people refer to themselves as such. But they are not a “stream of Judaism”. They are merely the folks who follow the traditions laid forth at Har Sinai.

    I know this is a painful fact for those who don’t follow these traditions, and they thus deny this truth. But be that as it may, as painful for them as this fact is, it shall be spoken.



    My position on the State is that of Reb Amram Bloy ZYA (or more technically of R’ Uriel Zimmer AH who was a Lubavitcher as well). Any morning that I need my alarm, it plays Hashem Hu Malkeinu and I sing it quite often on Shabbos and Yom Tov. (Reb Amram would in no way would have sanctioned the actions of those who call themselves Neturei Karta today). I will not face the flag of the state nor will I touch one, and there is a singer I will not listen to (not that I enjoy his style anyway) because he has recorded the anthem of the state on an album.

    At no time did I ever believe the state had any intrinsic value, but living in Europe and seeing how Jews the world over are suffering because of its blunders, I have come to realize that the state must be dismantled.

    I also know all too well that at this point the only one who can dismantle it safely with no further damage to the lives and well-being of Jews is Moshiach. Sadly, I fear that if he is delayed chas vesholom, and Obama is re-elected (and I do believe that barring Moshiach he will be re-elected because of the indolence of the average American), a one state solution will be imposed on the medine and Jews will flee in droves.

    And why? Because, like the kingdoms of Yoravam ben Navot and Ahav and Izevel, the tzionish medine has no right to rule in Eretz haKoidesh. Hashem did give Yidden a chance to bring kedusha back to the land, but by and large it is a mamleches zadoin which has destroyed more Yiddishe neshomos than it has saved Yidden.

    For me the blame lies with Roosevelt the rosho YMS, because had he allowed Jews to enter the US there would have been no need for the medine and in no way would it have been allowed to form. The tzioinim and all who participate in the government, including the charedi parties on anything above the municipal level, are tinoikos shenishbeu, and they are truly like tinoikois because they are as kids playing country the way kids play house or school.

    Rav Kook was an odom godol who made a very big mistake. That is assuming that certain quotes attributed to him are spurious, which is what I believe. If those quotes are true, then he was more of a Carlebach free love type than a true rav beYisroel, but there is nothing except a few out of context quotes to suggest that this was the case. Instead, I believe that he simply could not foresee that the very ideology of the “pioneers” (more like oisvorfen) would lead to events such as stirring up anti-Semitism abroad, to say nothing of the forced secularization in the maabarot, the arrival of non-Jews from the FSU, etc, etc, etc.

    We cannot be like all the peoples. We cannot be influenced by Western nationalism because we are not a Western nation. Without Torah, we are not a nation and any attempt to form a nation of Jewish people without Torah is a toeva, especially when that attempt is made in the Land of Israel.

    The medine is a bastard child of the haskalah, not a dovor shebikdusha. Its institutions are pure, unadulterated sitra achra.

    Finally, while Reb Amram Bloy ZYA is turning in his grave because of the nuts who usurped the name Neturei Karta as they visited Mad Mahmoud, at the end of the day, who armed terrorists in the “Balestinian Authority”? Yisroel Dovid Weiss? Nope. Ahron Cohen? Nope. Moshe Ber Beck? Nope. Those three clowns together perhaps managed to donate two pairs of torn gottkes and Beck’s old pajama bottoms to the Gaza refugee camps last time they visited.

    So how about the government of the state? Yep.

    Meshuggener Moishe Hirsch of the Ohel Hagar gang received $50K or so from Arafat YMS. That of course is unacceptable to put it mildly.

    But even as their so called policeman carried out acts of terror on innocent Jews, the medine sent the PA $100 million. So who is the rosho? Whacko Hirsch who successfully schnorred money from the tzoirer YMS or the government which SENT THEM money so they could buy arms?

    Hirsch, whose credentials are said to include serving as the Purim Rov of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin years ago, is as crazy as a fox (or was until he became uber ubotul); he is one of the inspirations for the Admou”r meCreedmoor.

    The memsheles zadoin is crazy as a lemming, so suicidal as to arm its own enemies in exchange for worthless promises.



    Nowadays, Koma, you know full well that Ivri is an old pre-medine term used to replace the proud label of “Yehudi” by the early Zionists. It has been succeeded by “israeli”. A chiloni will still use the word “yehudi” as a slightly contemptuous term for a ben Torah whom they (correctly) do not see as the more modern “israeli” but rather as (to them an antiquated) Yehudi.

    And those early Zionists said “Ivri anochi, chofshi anochi, kochi veotzem yadi ze hakol, mikol, kol.” They had no right to the term Ivri either! The most honest of them actually called themselves kenaanim!


    Mezonos Maven wrote:

    “starwolf, Once again you completely missed the boat. Sure, society by its imposition identifies some people as Chareidi. And as a matter of verbal convenience some of those people refer to themselves as such. But they are not a “stream of Judaism”. They are merely the folks who follow the traditions laid forth at Har Sinai.

    I know this is a painful fact for those who don’t follow these traditions, and they thus deny this truth. But be that as it may, as painful for them as this fact is, it shall be spoken. “

    You make the claim that only anti-State people are Torah Jews. Was that really your opinion?

    Now, I assume that you mean the people who identify themselves as Hareidim. Again, this is self-identification.

    So what makes them “Torah Jews” by your definition, as opposed to Modern Orthodox or Mizrachi?

    What makes them (in your opinion) the true inheritors of the traditions of Har Sinai?

    Is it: anti-Zionism?

    their mode of dress?

    their self-isolation from the rest of their people?

    Their reliance on their Rabbinical authority for opinions on every issue?

    Their refusal of secular education?

    Refusal to educate women?

    How anti-state do you need to be to be a “Torah Jew”? Do you have to go as far as A600KiloBear (following the shita of Rav Blau, for example) or can you also take money form the state even though you do not fully participate in its institutions (Belz would be a good example)?

    I of course realize that all of the above do not apply to all those who consider themselves Chareidi. I just want to know what MM’s definition of those Torah Jews are. I also want to get an answer to the question posted above: in his opinion, can a Zionist be a Torah Jew? Is, for example, Rav Ovadia Yosef a Torah Jew?

    A600KiloBear posted his opinion on the subject. While of course I do not agree with it, it was interesting to read.


    starwolf, Torah Jews defined as in following the Torah in the specific action in reference. Rav Yosef is no Zionist. Your implication otherwise was good for a laugh.


    MM, I picke Rav Yoseef for a reason. Now how about my other examples?

    I do not see how you reconcile your definition in the above post with your earlier statement.


    starwolf, You tried to pass off Rav Yosef as c’v a Zionist. So I called you out on that.

    I don’t see what is shver. When a Jew is acting in accordance with the Torah he is a Torah Jew. When he is not, he doesn’t earn that title. Zionism is not acting in accordance with the Torah.


    Thank you for the clarification. You are entitled to your opinion.

    In one of the other threads, A600KiloBear and I were discussing Hareidi vs Modern Orthodox hashkafot. He predicted, IIRC, that “my children would be Hareidi”. I assume that he meant because of demographic trends in Israel (and in the US).

    One major difference in the MO versus the Hareidi hashkafot is that of mutual tolerance. As you posted (if I may paraphrase) “all Torah Jewry” opposes Zionism. This implies that, in your opinion, a Zionist cannot be a Torah Jew.

    One reason for the demographic shift from Modern Orthodoxy/Mizrachi Judaism to Hareidi Judaism is educational. Over the years, OM schools have been employing Hareidi teachers. This was done for 2 reasons–the lack of emphasis on teaching in the MO sector we simply didn’t have enough people who wanted to go into those fields; and the philosophy of “what can it hurt? We are all Torah Jews here”. We see the result in the demographic shift.

    Well, we were slow to see it, but it is sinking in. There are now major changes in the educational hashkafa of the Mamlachti Dati movement in Israel, and one can hope to see it in the MO folks in the US as well. First of all, huge numbers of young mamlachti-dati people are going into education, at high school, middle school, and elementary school levels. They now see this as of paramount importance, which of course it is. Second, many paerents of children are serving notice to the mamlachti-dati school system that we do not want Hareidi teachers in our schools. This si because we believe that the attitudes that they teach are, in many cases, exactly those expressed by Mezonos Maven–that a Torah is incompatible with Zionism/Modern Orthodoxy.

    Of course, the Hareidim consider this unfair, but they can hardly complain since they have never exactly welcomed teachers of any hashkafa other than their own into their schools.

    So what is the net result? One of them is much less employment for Hareidi women. Teaching is one of the primary occupations permitted them, and the Mamalachti Dati schools were a major source of employment to them. This is now drying up. Will this increase the poverty in the hareidi sector? Sure–and I don’t think that that is a good thing. But I do not wish people from that sector teaching my children.

    Israeli religious schools also employ Rabbanim, and the story above goes for them as well. I do not want Hareidi Rabbanim coming to give shiurim at my childrens’ schools–and I am far from alone in that opinion. Many of us now understand why our population is shrinking and the Hareidi population is growing–and it is not only birth rates.

    I am beginning to hear similar talk from my friends and relatives in the MO communities in the US. And since those schools are private, the shift to exclusively MO teachers should be even easier.

    To those who ask if we are afraid of exposure to Hareidi ideas, I reply that we are adopting the successful Hareidi strategy of emphasizing our own hashkafa. Whether or not it will influence demographics remains to be seen.

    As far as religious values, I believe that the mamlachti/dati/Mizrachi/Modern Orthodox hashkafa is far better than that of the Hareidi one (else I would not be what I am) so we have nothing to lose by this.

    As far as economics goes, the mamlachti/dati sector of society is not affected, except that more of our own are employed in the schools. Not a bad thing at all.

    And as far as the Hqareidi sector goes, well, their own attitudes have brought this about. Why would we send our children to schools that employ teachers who teach that we are not Torah Jews?


    starwolf, I very much disagree with you attributing the reason for the demographic shift of MO/DL children becoming “Chareidi” primarily being a result of them having some Chareidi educators.

    The reason’s for that shift are much more fundamental.


    Bear, I suggest you learn some humility fast. I have some other choice ideas from the novi why and what the Jews in Europe feel and felt, but you have excused yourself of serious conversation with your attack on Rav Kook.



    You fail to note the most important reason for the shift from RZ to charedi, and that is disappointment in the whole idea of the medine after the surrender of Gaza.

    This affected not only young people but established older people as well.

    RZ will cease to exist except in its “chardal” form in 2 generations. What you’ll have is charedim and stragglers, the stragglers being people who put on a small kippa halfheartedly and are really just going through the motions. If there is any more surrender of land chardal will disappear as well and its proponents will end up being out and out charedi kanoim because of their disappointment.

    Haredi women are finding many, many other avenues of employment, assuming the government schools (not Chinuch Atzmai) ever were much of a source of employment and income for them.

    More and more haredi women are finding employment in call centers, hi-tech, advertising etc, etc, etc and plenty open their own businesses in traditional fields like cosmetics, shaitlach, clothing, wedding planning and even not so traditional fields as their sisters do in the US and Europe. Your children will probably miss their dedication assuming that they ever did teach in the schools as you claim they did.

    MO young people do not go into chinuch in the US; you know that and I know that. At best you have a few rabbis teaching until they find something better.

    People want the real thing. They want to do it right or not do it at all. They know that outside EY and even in EY you can be charedi and succeed financially and be respected socially. And they saw how the medine treated them in Gaza and they no longer believe in Rav Kook’s erroneous ideology of reishit tzmichat geulateinu. You’ll find more people who professs to believe in that in Teaneck than you will in Yerushalayim.


    MM- I do not think that the educational problem that I brought up is the primary reason, but it is one of the reasons.

    Nor do I agree with A600KiloBear that the primary reason was the disengagement from Aza. This change preceded the disengagement. As far as the disengagement embittering RZ people: while a great many disagreed with it, the vast majority accepted it. The threatened “revolt” of RZ officers and soldiers never materialized. Yes, several “hilltop youth” resolved not to serve, but let’s just say that they are not exactly considered “grade-A material” by the IDF in the first place.

    Somehow I doubt that the “older, established” folks who supported settlement in Aza and are disappointed by the disengagement turn to Chareidi philosophy as a remedy. Chardali? Perhaps–but the operative part of that includes “dati leumi” which means service in the IDF etc.

    What makes a person Chareidi? The clothing? Who cares about the style of dress? (Spoken like a true RZ, I know.)

    The primary reason for the shift are the birthrates; the numbers there are difficult to ignore.

    A600KiloBear is correct when he posts that “MO young people do not go into chinuch in the US”–at least, currently. Yet, things change, and I know several young people who are doing exactly that. Perhaps things will change there, perhaps not.

    As far as Hareidim succeeding financially–I certainly hope so. Unlike others, I do not say that any hashkafa other than my own is “not Torah Jewry”. Nor do I wish upon them poverty, lack of financial success, or anything else. That does not mean that I see supporting the institutions condemning my hashkafa as my responsibility, nor do I think that such teachers should be employed in my children’s schools.

    And as far as the comparison between Teaneck and Yerushalayim–I think not. We still see large numbers of RZ youth in IDF induction centers, asking to go into all-volunteer infantry units. The RZ schools are full, and Universities are full of RZ students in every field–some of them including a half day of kollel along with their University studies. (By the way, these programs are stock-full).



    It is not me who needs to learn humility, and I am surprised that such an insulting post went through.

    That is not an attack on Rav Kook; it is a fair analysis which is similar to that of Rav Avigdor Miller ZTL and other true gedolim. I made it clear that some of the clear kefiradige statements attributed to Rav Kook seem fabricated to me. What I do believe is that he described non-Zionists as people with whom he had a dispute regarding one mitzvah, whereas his dispute with the frei pioneers was centered around 612 mitzvos.

    I am the one who will be ignoring you, as you stoop to personal insults.

    As for MO vs Haredi:

    Have MO or RZ ever produced:

    A Rav Elyashiv shlita

    A Rav Shteinmann shlita

    A Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita

    A Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg shlita

    A Rav Moshe Feinstein ZTL

    A Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZTL

    A Rav Avigdor Miller ZTL

    A Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA

    A Satmarer Rov ZYA

    etc, etc

    or going further back:

    A Chazon Ish ZTL

    A Chofetz Chaim ZTL

    etc, etc, etc?

    Rav Mordechai Eliahu shlit”a is in between RZ and charedi, but his heritage is very much the Sefardi yishuv hayoshon, the mekubalim of old, who predate the medine by at least two generations and often more.

    Where do RZ (and frei) go when they are in trouble?

    Ezra LaMarpeh

    Rav Grossman

    Yad Sarah

    Ezer MiTzion

    Chabad (Colel Chabad in EY and Chabad in Asia when they get sick or arrested)

    Meir Ponim


    etc, etc, etc

    The MO and RZ world have always been looking to the Torah-true world for leadership and true chessed, and that is why some MO support Charedi institutions.

    Which reminds me that you can hardly compare a girl who does one year of national service (more and more opt out of this anyway as it is just make work and they know it), or even a soldier who does three years of army duty, to someone who devotes his life to helping others 24/7, and often lives in deep debt as if he gets a salary it is a pittance and he is always putting himself on the line for others even if he has to borrow to do it. Even a professional soldier retires into industry; the tzaddikim who work for the organizations above retire only

    If we lived according to Torah in EY, we would not need a state, nor would we have a fight with the Arabs. When I walk through the Arab shuk in Y-m, I see a proud people which has an identity. True, it is a klipa identity and a dog’s pride, but at least they are clearly Arab and not part of some nebulous world pop sameness McCulture. When I walk through Malha mall, I see cheap Britney and Whitney and Beyonce wannabes the way I see them in any suburban mall in the US.

    And do not think for one minute that the frei see RZ as the good guys. If anything they see the good guys as all of those organizations I mentioned above plus Breslov whose spirituality they kind of admire as another alternative counterculture (I’ve seen frei kids reading Likutei Moharan in EY).

    At the end of the day, they see RZ as a total wash, not truly frum but not of their self-defined enlightened world either (especially because of the animosity toward the Yos”h ‘settlers’ who include among their ranks far worse hooligans than any found in Mea Shearim, although I firmly believe both sets of hooligans are oisvorfen led by ShaBaK plants and stooges), and when they say Dros Kol Dos, they don’t differentiate.

    Anyway, vus iz shoyn der kesher tzvish’n dos mit mamalushen? Darf mich shoin farmach’n der thread? Seems we’re just rehashing the same old points over and over again.


    MO has certainly produced our share of Rabbanim, the fact that certain people do not see them as Gdolim is not our problem.

    Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Amital are just a few examples. Going further back, Rav Kook, Rav Kalisher.

    Where do MO go when we need help? The same places that all Israelis go-

    Hadassah Hospital, Shaarei Tzedek, MADA, etc etc. Do we use Yad Sarah? Sure. We also support Yad Sarah–form individual contributions, to paying for services, to huge government support. If you think for a minute that Yad Sarah is supported by Hareidim exclusively, you are completely divorced from reality.

    And A600KiloBear’s statement that “If we lived according to Torah in EY, we would not need a state, nor would we have a fight with the Arabs.” defies belief. Sure. Right. There was no killing of Jews in E”Y (or anywhere else before the rise of Zionism. The rise of Arab nationalism was only because of the rise of Zionism. Anything else you want to blame on Zionism? The Shoah? How about Chmielnitzki?

    As far as girls who do sherut leumi, more and more communities rely upon them to help teach, work with disabled children, etc. And as for the ones who do serve in the IDF (religious or secular) –plenty of them risk their lives as well. Certainly the opening of more tafkidim for girls has guaranteed that their contribution to the security to the state and people of Israel only rises. And your referring to Hareidim is laughable–putting themselves on the line indeed. Tell that to the solders who spend their time guarding Hareidi towns and the roads leading to them.

    The fact that you come to Israel and only see malls does not mean that that is the only thing here. For that, I truly feel sorry for you–I have no other way to put it. In any event, if you find the medina such a terrible place, I am glad for you that nobody forces you to live here and see this “terrible” place day-to-day. Enjoy the Ukraine–paradise on earth–with such a history of welcoming the Jews.


    A600KiloBear – whose credentials are said to include serving as the Purim Rov of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin years ago. Are you sure that he was Purim Rav there? I have heard he was the Purim Rav in Lakewood & Rav Ahron ZT”L greatly enjoyed his shpiels.


    starwolf, Are you seriously postulating Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Amital are on the same caliber as the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Elyashiv, etc.? I can’t believe you are that deluded. Rav Kalisher wasn’t a zionist.

    It is interesting to note that the true Gedolei Yisroel are recognized as such across the board.

    And, yes, aside from riling up the Arabs, the zionist take much responsibility for what transpired during the holocaust, as has been documented on this very forum amongst many other places.

    And the Torah scholar does more to hold up the safety of Klal Yisroel and the world, than any other person.


    First of all, I am not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, that the Jewish world can exist without Torah learning. What I am suggesting is that not only Hareidim learn Torah.

    Speaking of deluded, where do you get the idea that Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalisher was not a Zionist? I would say that his founding of the Mizrachi movement, his collection of money for settlement activity, and his correspondence indicating his philosophy that the beginning of messianic redemption would be brought about by human effort and by the will of the governments to gather the scattered of Israel into the Holy Land. Have you ever read Drishat Tzion?

    If those activities do not qualify someone as a Zionist, I don’t know what does.

    You may play your game of “my Rebbe is bigger than your Rebbe” all day long. I need not accept your views, nor need you accept mine. If I personally think that Rav Soloveitchik was greater than any of his contemporaries, that is my privilege. Your mileage may vary.

    The reason that certain Rabbanim are recognized across the board is that MO Judaism does not disqualify someon’e Torah learning because of his hashkafa on Zionism or the professional world. We are taught to respect Rabbanim from all streams of Shomer Mitzvot Judaism. The fact that others do not have this respect is nothing to be proud of.



    Moshe Hirsch was Purim Rov in Chaim Berlin. Maybe he was in Lakewood as well. He and MAF clearly just do what they do (well, MAF is retired) to get attention and a few bucks from whoever and wherever.

    This past year there were more Jews coming to Ukraine from EY than vice versa. It has been that way in more prosperous and larger Russia for almost a decade now. Anyone who leaves here for EY is doing so temporarily, usually to learn because he can’t get a visa to the US where he would rather learn. Otherwise, you have a few starry eyed idealists who usually come running back or move on to Germany – or losers, often not halachically Jewish, who are going for welfare. Even a couple of retirees I know here came back from there because they had nothing to live for there.

    Enjoy your economic bubble. I lived through three bubble busts already, but all were in places with far more of an economic base than the medine. The medine just muddles through, has a boom-bust cycle that leaves far more people down than up even when the bust ends, and is a net exporter of trained, skilled, enterprising people.

    It is only a few starry eyed Americans who still believe as you do. Even many RZ are fed up with their broken dream.

    I have no more time to waste on this thread which is just a rehash of 1000 similar threads, and this one was supposed to be about Yiddish. Still, my last words here will be in loshon hakoidesh:

    Hashem Hu Malkeinu. Beshitas hakofrim ein anu makirim.


    Well, I have lived in Israel for a total of over 18 years, so my idealism is a little less starry-eyed than one might think. Most recently I took a rather large pay cut to move back here with my family, and yes, my wife and I knew the economic costs of moving here before the move.

    I have lived in Israel through economic good times and bad, and it is my own experience that someone who moves to Israel from the West is indeed somewhat starry-eyed. It is difficult for me to address people moving here from the Ukraine and such places as I do not know much about the economic situation there.

    Yes, the Medina does seem to just muddle through, at times. One could certainly hope for beter long-term planning, and more idealism. A great many of our politicians leave a lot to be desired–but I could certainly say the same about the US, and my friends from other countries say the same about their politicians.

    Still, we DO muddle through. Despite our net export of brain-power, our research and development output is greater than that of many Western countries of greater size, and in general, the bureaucracy is getting less and less. Our dream is alive, and growing. It may appear broken to A600KIloBear, but not to us.

    So A600KiloBear is welcome to his pessimism, and I will take my optimism. I am glad that he is happy with his choice of not living in the State of Israel, and my family and myself our thrilled that we are. So everyone’s happy.


    Without yiddish you’d be lost on rosh hashana. You wouldnt know what food is paired up with what yehi ratzon.


    cherrybim, That doesn’t change my quoted position.

    And to reverse your example, take for instance the Shomrei Emumim Rebbe or any of the Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avrohom Yitchok Rebbes, they the are not recognized and even denigrated by the MO world, yet they are true tzadikim and g’dolei torah, second to none.

    Do you dispute that? What gives you (or if not you then other MO people) more right to do so, then the Yeshivisha/Chasidesha velt has to not agree with your characterizations and designations of the Yeshiva University Rabbis?

    Just because someone is a (or even “the”) leader of YU, doesn’t bestow upon him the title of Godol. Vi shteit az the yeshivisha velt must recognize Rabbi ABC (fill in the blank) of YU as a Godol? Usually the YU Rabbis take any number of positions that the Chareidi community know as incompatible with that of a Godol. And who says that Rabbi ABC of YU is any more of a Godol than the Rosh Yeshiva of, say, Yeshivas Derech Chaim in Brooklyn (a true tzadik and godol like many other Roshei Yeshivos in Brooklyn and elsewhere)?

    So the point remains that the true “leaders of Klal Yisroel” are truly recognized as such across the board. It is “just” simply works out like that through their gadlus, and always has worked out like that.

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