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Ubiquitin.
“Though it is probably Assur to believe that a Talmud chocham or any frum yid for that matter compromised their beliefs for “parnossa”
It is also Assur to get paid a Parnossa for teaching Torah.
Avot : perek 4 Mishna 5, “and don’t use it as a spade with which to dig”
Rabbenu Ovadaya MBartenura : “And do not study Torah in order to make from it a craft from which to earn a living, like a spade to dig with. As one that does this misappropriates the sanctity of the Torah and is liable for the death penalty from the Heavens, like one who derives benefit from hekdesh. And teachers of small children receive payment for watching the children … ; and payment for breaking up the cantillation …. But payment for teaching is forbidden to take, as it is written, (Devarim 4:14), “And Hashem commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess” – just like I [was taught] for free, so too are you [to be taught] for free.Part 1
A FAQ from Rabbi Dr. Ari Berman President, Yeshiva University that was recently emailed.
My Dear Friends,
Many of you know that Yeshiva University is defending its right in the Supreme Court to make its own religious decisions. Due to the significance of the matter, I share with you below a number of the answers we have posted to the questions we have received these past few days. For further updates, please visit
Rabbi Dr. Ari Berman
President, Yeshiva University
FAQs
Why is this case in the US court system?
Yeshiva University was brought to court based on the claim that it is not religious enough to be allowed to make its own decision on religious matters. The court case is solely about YU’s freedom to act according to its values without government interference.
What are the consequences if Yeshiva University loses these court rulings?
Yeshiva University will no longer be able to govern itself according to its principles of faith as it will be subject to any claims of discrimination. If, for example, a student wished to form a Jews for Jesus club, Yeshiva would be required to allow it. Sabbath observance on campus, the hiring of Orthodox rabbis and educators and maintaining our separate gender campuses would all be open to potential lawsuits.
How did this situation arise?
Yeshiva University has a long-standing policy to officially approve student clubs that are consistent with its Torah values. For this reason, it has not granted official club status to many other club applications in the past, including a gun club and a Jewish fraternity, as the names and activities associated with these clubs were deemed not fully consistent with the values of YU. A similar conclusion was reached on the application of the YU Pride Alliance.
Does Yeshiva University welcome LGBTQ students in its undergraduate schools?
Absolutely.
We welcome, love and care for all our students, including our LGBTQ students. We place a specific emphasis of importance on supporting our LGBTQ students. There are a number of ways we express this support, including hosting an LGBTQ support group, requiring LGBTQ sensitivity training to all of our rabbis and faculty and presenting public events so that all of our students better understand the experience of being LGBTQ and Orthodox. And, of course, we uphold our strong anti-bullying and anti-discrimination policies. We understand that a number of our LGBTQ students think YU should be doing more for them including establishing a student club. We had been engaged in a constructive dialogue with our students to work on building an even more inclusive campus experience.
However, when we were sued with the claim that we do not have the right to make our own decisions, the matter changed entirely from an LGBTQ discussion to defending the future of our institution.
Students at YU get no credit for their Yeshiva studies. It does not charge tuition. This is unique in the world and the Torah World. RIETS follows halacha , period . It always did. It was the first Yeshiva in America and remains a mokom Torah Lishma.
Part 2
Faq from Rabbi Dr Ari BermanDo the same expectations that apply to the undergraduate schools, apply to YU’s professional and academic graduate schools?
No.
The way Yeshiva University applies its Torah values to the graduate schools is very different than its undergraduate schools.
We are very clear about the type of environment that exists on our undergraduate campus, and every undergaduate student who makes the personal choice to come here is choosing this environment instead of other college experiences. The undergraduate experience at Yeshiva is intentionally designed to be an intensely religious one during the formative years of our students’ lives. Its fundamental purpose is to faithfully transmit our multimillennial tradition to enable our students to integrate their faith and practice in lives of enormous professional success, impact and personal meaning. The daily schedule of our undergraduate students requires hours of Torah study. The campus experience fosters a deeply religious experience including two single sex campuses, multiple prayer services throughout the day, Shabbat regulations, kashrut observance and extra Torah study opportunities in the evenings.
As students move from their formative years to our professional graduate schools, there is a shift in focus towards professional training and academic research. These schools, comprised of Jews and non-Jews, excel in their scholarship and education of excellent professionals in their respective fields. These schools also embody our core values to “Seek Truth, Discover Your Potential, Live Your Values, Act with Compassion and Bring Redemption,” in their respective learning communities. They also follow a Jewish calendar and maintain kosher standards to facilitate an accessible experience to our Orthodox Jewish students. But the focus is wholly different and so are the assumptions of student life.
Is Yeshiva University accepting of LGBTQ staff and personnel as well?
Absolutely.
As a religious institution of higher education, can Yeshiva University accept government funds?
Yes, it can. In fact, almost all religious universities and colleges receive state and federal funding. The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly—as recently as this June—that, when the government makes funding generally available, it cannot discriminate in the distribution of those funds based on religion. For example, it can’t offer Pell grants to students generally but then deny them to students who want to go to a religious school. That would be religious discrimination. We do not lose our religious status just because we participate in public life on equal footing with everyone else.
Why is the university defending this right and appealing all the way to the Supreme Court?
Once we were brought to court, this no longer was about an LGBTQ club, but our ability to make decisions for ourselves about our religious environment.
The plaintiffs have argued that YU is not a religious institution and, thus not empowered to decide matters pertaining to religion. In its ruling, the lower court pieced together an argument that creates a threatening precedent. The implications of this decision are deleterious to the very fabric of our educational system and we need to defend ourselves to protect our future.
What is at stake with this case?
Historically, the Jewish people have had deeply negative experiences with government interference in religious matters. When a court can decide that Yeshiva University is not religious enough to administer its own religious environment, then it’s not just our institution’s future that is being threatened. In truth, this is not just a Jewish issue. Leaders of other faiths and leading legal scholars are similarly deeply concerned with this ruling. They understand that the consequences of this legal decision have severe implications for faith in America.
Hopefully we will be able to restore a just sense of religious liberty and return to a constructive dialogue with our students to work together to build an even more inclusive, loving campus environment that is a blessing to all of our students and a model of discourse and harmony to our society.
jack…are you trolling? do you really think that anybody in the past thousand years has held halachikally that you’re not allowed to earn a living being a rebbe/rosh yeshiva?
Rabbi Dr. Ari Berman, the President of YU, just sent out a very informative email of FAQ’s on this case. I think it is worthwhile for all contributors to this post to read it.
My Dear Friends,
Many of you know that Yeshiva University is defending its right in the Supreme Court to make its own religious decisions. Due to the significance of the matter, I share with you below a number of the answers we have posted to the questions we have received these past few days. For further updates, please visit yu.edu/case-faqs.
Rabbi Dr. Ari Berman
President, Yeshiva University
FAQs
Why is this case in the US court system?
Yeshiva University was brought to court based on the claim that it is not religious enough to be allowed to make its own decision on religious matters. The court case is solely about YU’s freedom to act according to its values without government interference.
What are the consequences if Yeshiva University loses these court rulings?
Yeshiva University will no longer be able to govern itself according to its principles of faith as it will be subject to any claims of discrimination. If, for example, a student wished to form a Jews for Jesus club, Yeshiva would be required to allow it. Sabbath observance on campus, the hiring of Orthodox rabbis and educators and maintaining our separate gender campuses would all be open to potential lawsuits.
How did this situation arise?
Yeshiva University has a long-standing policy to officially approve student clubs that are consistent with its Torah values. For this reason, it has not granted official club status to many other club applications in the past, including a gun club and a Jewish fraternity, as the names and activities associated with these clubs were deemed not fully consistent with the values of YU. A similar conclusion was reached on the application of the YU Pride Alliance.
Does Yeshiva University welcome LGBTQ students in its undergraduate schools?
Absolutely.
We welcome, love and care for all our students, including our LGBTQ students. We place a specific emphasis of importance on supporting our LGBTQ students. There are a number of ways we express this support, including hosting an LGBTQ support group, requiring LGBTQ sensitivity training to all of our rabbis and faculty and presenting public events so that all of our students better understand the experience of being LGBTQ and Orthodox. And, of course, we uphold our strong anti-bullying and anti-discrimination policies. We understand that a number of our LGBTQ students think YU should be doing more for them including establishing a student club. We had been engaged in a constructive dialogue with our students to work on building an even more inclusive campus experience.
However, when we were sued with the claim that we do not have the right to make our own decisions, the matter changed entirely from an LGBTQ discussion to defending the future of our institution.
Do the same expectations that apply to the undergraduate schools, apply to YU’s professional and academic graduate schools?
No.
The way Yeshiva University applies its Torah values to the graduate schools is very different than its undergraduate schools.
We are very clear about the type of environment that exists on our undergraduate campus, and every undergaduate student who makes the personal choice to come here is choosing this environment instead of other college experiences. The undergraduate experience at Yeshiva is intentionally designed to be an intensely religious one during the formative years of our students’ lives. Its fundamental purpose is to faithfully transmit our multimillennial tradition to enable our students to integrate their faith and practice in lives of enormous professional success, impact and personal meaning. The daily schedule of our undergraduate students requires hours of Torah study. The campus experience fosters a deeply religious experience including two single sex campuses, multiple prayer services throughout the day, Shabbat regulations, kashrut observance and extra Torah study opportunities in the evenings.
As students move from their formative years to our professional graduate schools, there is a shift in focus towards professional training and academic research. These schools, comprised of Jews and non-Jews, excel in their scholarship and education of excellent professionals in their respective fields. These schools also embody our core values to “Seek Truth, Discover Your Potential, Live Your Values, Act with Compassion and Bring Redemption,” in their respective learning communities. They also follow a Jewish calendar and maintain kosher standards to facilitate an accessible experience to our Orthodox Jewish students. But the focus is wholly different and so are the assumptions of student life.
Is Yeshiva University accepting of LGBTQ staff and personnel as well?
Absolutely.
As a religious institution of higher education, can Yeshiva University accept government funds?
Yes, it can. In fact, almost all religious universities and colleges receive state and federal funding. The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly—as recently as this June—that, when the government makes funding generally available, it cannot discriminate in the distribution of those funds based on religion. For example, it can’t offer Pell grants to students generally but then deny them to students who want to go to a religious school. That would be religious discrimination. We do not lose our religious status just because we participate in public life on equal footing with everyone else.
Why is the university defending this right and appealing all the way to the Supreme Court?
Once we were brought to court, this no longer was about an LGBTQ club, but our ability to make decisions for ourselves about our religious environment.
The plaintiffs have argued that YU is not a religious institution and, thus not empowered to decide matters pertaining to religion. In its ruling, the lower court pieced together an argument that creates a threatening precedent. The implications of this decision are deleterious to the very fabric of our educational system and we need to defend ourselves to protect our future.
What is at stake with this case?
Historically, the Jewish people have had deeply negative experiences with government interference in religious matters. When a court can decide that Yeshiva University is not religious enough to administer its own religious environment, then it’s not just our institution’s future that is being threatened. In truth, this is not just a Jewish issue. Leaders of other faiths and leading legal scholars are similarly deeply concerned with this ruling. They understand that the consequences of this legal decision have severe implications for faith in America.
Hopefully we will be able to restore a just sense of religious liberty and return to a constructive dialogue with our students to work together to build an even more inclusive, loving campus environment that is a blessing to all of our students and a model of discourse and harmony to our society.
>>>Also, could you imagine RIETS being under the umbrella of the Mennonites?
No comparison. The umbrella YU organization is not under the control of the toevah crowd. Nor will it ever be.
The toeava crowd is demanding supreme rights that marginalize those of everyone else in YU like they do everywhere else. Being that in the liberal world the toevah crowd is their sacred cow they have the right to make such demands on secular groups. Question is if YU is included in such secular groups. Even if they will ch’v be successful the situation will remain the same. YU is being strong-armed and bullied by the toevah crowd who is acting on their initiative in YU. It is not something YU is doing or supporting.
Damoshe
YU dot edu/case-faqs
explains the background, which is as I said
You have a couple points wrong.Jackk
“It is also Assur to get paid a Parnossa for teaching Torah.”
correct. not sure why this is addressed to meAll,
You don’t need to agree with what you perceive as YU’s hashkafos, but please reserve the right not to comment on what you don’t understand.
1- YU’s beis medrash is a tremendous makom Torah. More than half of the undergrads, that’s 600+, choose to learn until 3pm before starting their afternoon courses (although there are different options that would end at 1pm). The large majority of those also learn at least a 2 hour night seder after their classes, with a respectable tzibbor remaining in the beis well past midnight. That’s besides the 150 or so avreichim learning in the kollel. While BMGs beis medrash is obviously larger, it would be hard to find 600+ mevakshim in too many other other yeshivas.
2- I doubt that anyone here, myself included, has the ability to rank talmidei chochomim, but based on what I’ve heard from a wide range of Roshei Yeshiva both in the States and in EY, Rav Schachter is undoubtedly a gadol and perhaps the biggest talmid chochom in America. Might be worth discussing with your own Roshei Yeshiva before commenting.
3- YU’s beis medrash is packed with dozens of Rebbeim, talmidei chochomim and poskim- some ‘home-grown’ and others who came from other ‘standard’ yeshivas. To name a few: Rav Schachter, Rav Willig, Rav Twersky, Rav Sobolofsky, Rav Eli Baruch Shulman, Rav Elchanan Adler, Rav Aryeh Lebowitz… plus a team of Mashgichim to further help foster the talmidim’s growth.
4- And for those who were questioning, from what I understand, there are two basic reasons the stronger bochurim are opting for YU over Landers. 1) L’maaseh, it’s a stronger beis medrash. 2) They’re also interested in the more respectable education/degree. In terms of the talmidim who are not learning until 3, BH most of them are still learning to some degree and certainly benefit from being in the Jewish environment rather than risk getting swallowed up on a secular campus.
5- Again, you don’t need to agree with everything that happens at YU, but please learn the facts before passing judgment.Ubiq,
It was said to you because you agreed that is is preposterous to imagine that Rav Gorelick would say such a thing.
Avira,
You think it is trolling to quote a Chazal ?
You seem to think it is mutar to speak lashon hara.
Stop acting as if you are better and know more than everyone else.You did this on the retzichas ubarim thread also.
Only you get to decide what is mutar and assur, or politically mutar and assur, and any Rav that disagrees gets thrown in the waste bin.Jack, find me one post shu”a authority who holds you’re not allowed to be a rebbe or rosh yeshiva. Hogwash. Motzi shem ra.
The heterim… Not that you’re willing to hear it, vary from schar shimur, schar batalah, etc…
It’s trolling to accuse thousands of tzadikim of just ignoring a chazal and violating an issur
As for lashon hora; please tell me why anything i said is lashon hora. I’d love to hear it. Is it sinat chinam? Is it ok for Norman lamm to call yeshiva people cavemen, but not to point out the horrible violations of torah the go on in a so called yeshiva?
Emes – as pointed out, 600 in one place is only big if it’s one of many. Bmg has more than yu by a factor of 6 ot 7, and it’s only the largest – there are hundreds of yeshivos that are smaller. Hundreds. The amount of torah learned in the Torah world, not the torah ve’taaruvos, not torah umada, not torah v’toeva, nor torah v’movies, is exponentially greater than in the modern world, where one in a class of 30 go on to the “elite” of YU, where they can learn tons of api(courses), Bible criticism, and all sorts of treif, “in the interest of openness”.
They can “Excel” in learning and become experts in searching for heterim for women to not be tznius
But heaven forbid to miss krias hatorah or not wear techeles…hamayvin yovin.
re R’ Aharon Kahn not resigning from YU.
I’m surprised at this because I have a friend who’s a big R’ Khan guy, davened in his shul and all, and he told me that R’ Kahn resigned when the club was formed and that night made a rekida in his shul for having been mikayeim bechol meodecha.
@jackk I’m not following all the intricacies here, however Avira made an excellent point that YU has no problem attacking a gadol, but if someone says something against R’ Shechter or R’ Soloveichik there is no room for compromise. And you haven’t responded to it.
>>>YU has no problem attacking a gadol, but if someone says something against R’ Shechter or R’ Soloveichik there is no room for compromise.
The type of YU people who support and identify with the toevah crowd would have no problem saying something against R’ Shechter or R’ Soloveichik either if it suits their purposes. And it is only when it suits their purposes that they have issue with anyone else doing so as well.
My impression from posters here was that some club exist there for some time. But the letter posted above days that it is in litigation and doesn’t exist. Maybe difference is between grad school and undergrad yeshiva. It would help if people explain the facts before doing general statements.
People in glass houses 🏘️ should be careful rejecting Torah based on some behavior… We have here a poster admitting underreporting his income and evén implying that many do the same… I could easily say that this posuls his yeshiva, but given that he just used a Deborah and didn’t even ask a shaila we can assume that it is just personal aveirah and the teachers are not necessarily implicated
Ubiq, my point is those real Rabbonim who decades ago taught at YU didn’t do so for parnassa; similar to those who teach in Conservative schools they taught in YU for Kiruv purposes.
“Does Yeshiva University welcome LGBTQ students in its undergraduate schools?
Absolutely.
We welcome, love and care for all our students, including our LGBTQ students. We place a specific emphasis of importance on supporting our LGBTQ students. There are a number of ways we express this support, including hosting an LGBTQ support group, requiring LGBTQ sensitivity training to all of our rabbis and faculty and presenting public events so that all of our students better understand the experience of being LGBTQ and Orthodox.”
This disgusting official statement speaks volumes. Does YU welcome, love and care for all our students, including their adulterous students, murderous students, sexual abusing students, Christian missionary students, and atheist students? If so, why aren’t they announcing all those students as well? If not, why not?
And, note that YU in this statement is referring to its undergraduate/RIETS program, not its postgraduate programs.
Does YU
“>>>Also, could you imagine RIETS being under the umbrella of the Mennonites?
No comparison. The umbrella YU organization is not under the control of the toevah crowd. Nor will it ever be.”
smerel: Yet the YU organization is condoning, funding and supporting the toeiva crowd.
The Mennonites, like YU, also is not under the control of the toevah crowd. So what’s the difference, if anything?
UJM: It is possible to love someone who is struggling with his yezter hora. What would you do if it was your child?
Obviously, this paragraph was only written for PR purposes to demonstrate that they are not religious fanatics from the dark ages. But the reality is still there that just because someone claims that he/she is gay is not a reason to treat them like a murderer. The problem is only when someone says he is proud of acting against the Torah and wants to push that agenda on others.That is exactly what YU is fighting against.
@rocky, “Obviously, this paragraph was written for PR purposes to demonstrate that they are not religious fanatics from the dark ages.”
That pretty much sizes up the MO mentality in general and YU in particular, they are always buzy trying to show that they are modern and left first and Jewish second.
And that is why it is withering on the vine.Aaq
“Maybe difference is between grad school and undergrad yeshiva”
Exactly right, see my first comment in this thread
Rocky: Don’t they love people who are struggling with the yetzer hora to commit adultery? If so, why isn’t YU support for adulterous students mentioned, with the hosting of a support group for them, sensitivity training of their rebbeim and professors about such people and presenting public events so that all of their students better understand the experience?
E.I.E.: I’ve discussed it with multiple Roshei Yeshivos. None of the people you mentioned are close to the top tier. And, yes, we can compare levels – in fact, we need to in order to judge who is an authority in the first place. If you can’t compare levels then how are you to know that someone is a godol? The fact that he is accepted as a godol only means that many people have judged his level to be that of a godol. But if you cannot compare levels, then these people have no right to accept him as a godol in the first place. Part of knowing who to follow is to know who is greater. Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made. And as Rav Shach writes – if you dont know who to follow, follow whoever is greater – and, he adds, you can of course tell who is greater. If you yourself dont know, then thats fine – not everyone can know the answer to all questions they encounter – but why in the world would you say nobody else can know.
UJM
“Don’t they love people who are struggling with the yetzer hora to commit adultery?”
Of course they do! do you not love such people ?, I’m surprised such a frum yid like yourself is willing to publicly imply you are mevatel a mitzvah of Vehavta Lereacha for so many of your fellow Jews
Its a pretty standard desire as the Gemara Chagiga says “עריות נפשו מחמדתן ומתאוה להם”
Of course because of that The Shulchan Aruch warns us “צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים מאד מאד”
Most people have such a yetzer hora. OF course BECAUSE it is such a common yetzer horah we have guidelines to protect ourselfves (see EH siman 21). furthermore because it is such a common yetzer horah, no club is necessary; all (most?) people are already in the club .UJM: You know the answer to your own question. There is no need to create sensitivity training or any statement about students struggling with adultery because its not a public issue. This whole statement and the entire lawsuit are about a sensitive public issue.
Think about it this way. What would BMG say if they were sued for the same issue? Would they say, “We hate gay people”? “If a gay person walks onto our campus, we have no problem if they get beat up”? I think they would say something very similar to what Rabbi Dr. Berman is saying, although they would change the tone.Rocky: Bingo! And toeiva homosexuality SHOULD NOT be a public issue either! Why is YU accepting this toeiva as a public issue but adultery not? Only because the perverted toeivaniks DEMAND that their sickness become a public issue. No other reason. And YU plays ball with this. YU, in the long emailed statement two people posted above says YU hosts support groups for them, YU gives sensitivity training of their rebbeim and professors about toeiva people and YU presents public events so that all of their students better understand the toeiva experience.
YU boasts of doing all this on behalf of toeiva people, to push it over the rest of their non-toeiva students, faculty and rebbeim, but does no such thing on behalf of adulterous students.
Ubi: Exactly right, see my first comment in this thread
So then why people here post exaggerated statements? Either they don’t know exactly themselves by parroting something they heard from others or they are viewing modern camp as reshayim to whom laws of lashon hara do not apply. I would think outright lying would be osur even then.
I wonder whether anonymity here relaxes moral norms, after all it is a public forum. For example, if someone posts terrorist calls, FBI could easily get personal info from internet provider, so maybe yu can sue in beis din for damages and do the same. I know these posts are legal by us law, so internet provider will not get involved,.but ywn would need to listen to beis din.. could a ploni almoni defend his privacy , an interesting case that could help strengthen halochos of lashon hara
Ps I don’t think anonymous posters can sue to protect their – anonymous – reputation as there are no damages, but when you address actual institutions, I don’t see why not. Maybe someone can argue the opposite
ubiq: No one is in any such “club”. Everyone knows it is very wrong, are embarrassed about any such desire, fight that desire and would never create or join any public club having anything related to such desires.
On the other hand YU, is openly boasting of creating support groups, giving sensitivity training and presenting public events so that their students, rebbeim and faculty better understand the toeiva experience.
AAQ
“So then why people here post exaggerated statements?”
A question I’ve had for a long time. In fact those discussions are the one I find most fascinating. Ive had ridiculously long conversations (even embarrassingly long) where another poster clearly made something up, and when called out on it just doubled down
I was pretty sure I was right, but others spoke with such certainty that I hedged a bit. (I since verified that the OP is completely wrong)“I wonder whether anonymity here relaxes moral norms,”
I think that plays a role, but in we have’ all seen even non-anonymous people make statements/predictions that are blatantly false. Chazal say Chazaka people don’t lie if they will be found out, it doesn’t seem to be true anymore. either they are hoping people won’t follow up, or if they do others won’t be interested and will have moved on
UJM
So to be clear, you asked regarding YU ““Don’t they love people who are struggling with the yetzer hora to commit adultery?””
Do you?> Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made.
You can’t always order T’Ch according to one criterion. We follow Rav in some issues, and Shmuel in others. So, people might have different shailos whether they live in Bnei Braq or in Five towns. And you can have different advice for different people. As with R Salanter advising Konegsberg merchants to improve shabbos observance step by step – that he only gave when there were no Litvishe Yidden around.
ubi > Chazal say Chazaka people don’t lie if they will be found out, it doesn’t seem to be true anymore.
this might be true … this might be a sign of our assimilation into American culture with the first amendment right to say almost anything. And I do not see much difference in this aspect between modernishe and not. I wonder whether British or other Jews, who live in less boastful societies, see this better from outside. Anyone here?
Rav Moshe paskened being more accommodating according to his audience like saying slichos at night.
When this club established?
The US Supreme Court has today, on technical/procedural grounds, reversed the temporary injunction blocking the New York court order from becoming effective. As a result, YU is effective immediately now obligated under court order to implement the court injunction requiring the university “to immediately grant” the RIETS Homosexual Club “full and equal accommodations”.
Beginning tomorrow will YU/RIETS fulfill its legal obligation per the New York court injunction supporting the RIETS Homosexual Club and thereby violate the Torah *OR* tomorrow will YU not violate the Torah but rather violate New York law and a court order by refusing the implement the injunction?
What’s your choice YU — Torah or America?
Clearly, Dr. Berman’s statement is not merely supporting individuals who are struggling with their yitzrei hora. It is supporting the LGBTQ agenda, just saying they don’t want to be forced to do so.
It’s sickening.
Ujm, Torah was never a choice in YU – the choice is between fully embracing goyishkeit, or only embracing 1980s-1990s goyishkeit mixed with biblical and semi Talmudic monotheism
Yeshiva University Freezes All Student Clubs to Avoid Recognizing LGBTQ+ Group
Well, well, well. Looks like YU found a little bit of a conscience after all this time. At least for now.
The better question is why didn’t YU shut down all their clubs at their graduate schools over the last 25 years, in order legally to shut down the toeiva clubs.
>>>The better question is why didn’t YU shut down all their clubs at their graduate schools over the last 25 years
They would have to close their graduate schools down altogether to do so. Their graduate schools are secular schools that accommodate frum students. There probably isn’t even any legal option to classify a graduate school that primarily teaches secular subjects and only gives secular degrees as a religious school. The Touro graduate schools also have toeva clubs. I even found explicit reference to them on Touro’s own website. No one says a word about that either.
smerel: You ignored the point. No graduate school is obliged to have or fund or acknowledge or provide any accommodations to ANY club. It is only once they accept one club then they legally cannot discriminate against another. But if they don’t support even a single club then they don’t have to accept any toeiva club.
Smerel, please quote the”explicit” mention of such clubs at Touro. I looked and didn’t find any.
Also, touro is a college. It doesn’t call itself a yeshiva. It’s wrong to have one under the ownership of a frum jew, but in a yeshiva is next-level, tzelem beheichal bad. I say so because YU bills itself as a yeshiva; i consider it a university with a religious studies department.
Hope YU will stay without clubs. I am not sure why parents and tax-payers spend ridiculous amount of money on institutions to provide social life opportunities. Separate clubs from YU. If someone wants to sponsor those clubs, separately from tuition, gezunte heig. If YU can lower tuition based on that (not holding my breath), then it will make YU more attractive to those who now send their kids to “goyishe colleges”.
My understanding is that Touro provides way less “entertainment” relative to (somewhat lower quality) education. And more kids go home and not joining clubs. Still, it would be a bigger problem for Touro that caters to more right-wing population. If someone does not mind to go to a same level of college without being in a protective environment, they can do it way cheaper and closer to home, wherever they live. YU has more leverage.
>>> No graduate school is obliged to have or fund or acknowledge or provide any accommodations to ANY club.
There is no group in America that is more aggressive and demanding of validation from others than the toevah crowd. Say YU would close all graduate school clubs , the toevah crowd would anyway organize and proselytize in their graduate schools as a non officially recognized club and take them to court over any efforts to stop them . Given the sacred status the toevah crowd has in liberal society they would probably win. So what would they gain?
It’s looks like Touro is following YUs lead (like they frequently do) and took their affiliation with Toevah groups off their website but go on Wikipedia and type in “Touro University Rainbow Health Coalition” if you want more details of how those groups operate in Touro’s graduate schools and how Touro also buckled under pressure from those groups. Cardoza and Wurzweiler etc. do not claim to be a Yeshiva or anything other than a secular college under the umbrella auspices of YU. They are no
more affiliated with the YU undergraduate program or RIETS than Touro law is affiliated with Landers in QueensI still don’t understand what changed. Did the yeshiva change or the court ruling?
smerel: Your defenses are desperate. You’re trying to defend the indefensible.
Given the schools under discussion, why are we having most “prestigious” Jewish colleges in the middle of Manhattan? Is this the most accessible place for commuting students from the whole community – from Brooklyn to Queens to NJ suburbs?
Maybe they can subdivide into several campi – in Brooklyn and somewhere outside of NYC with less access to bad middos? Here R Kotler was ahead of time! Toms River, maybe?
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