The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

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  • #1656798

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    regarding this guy anonymous….he really needs a slap in the face to wake him up.
    he continues to push his points, even where we don’t argue! he is in his own fantasy world, not reality.
    He is talking to himself, not to anybody else, because he is not responding to anything that anyone else is saying?

    HAKARAS HATOV

    I would posit to say that even Joseph will agree with me that we should have hakaras hatov to the army for protecting jewish lives in Eretz Yisrael, correct Joseph?

    NOBODY IS ARGUING ON THAT. STOP BRINGING IT UP!!

    PRAYER FOR THE WELFARE OF THE STATE

    let’s daven for the welfare of the state, Joseph I think would also agree that we should daven for the welfare of the state, as their are so many jewish lives hinged on the state. We should daven that the state is protected, and that people there should upkeep the Torah.

    That has nothing to do with instituting a tefillah into davening, bkviyus. The mishna doesnt say to do so.

    Nobody is arguing on this point, not me or you, exept that you for some reason need need need it to be put into davening! ok, so you NEED it in davening, we don’t, and on the contrary we perhaps “feel” that there are reasons to leave it out, THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE AGAINST A TEFILLAH FOR THE STATE, in our own davening to Hashem.

    I have a strong feeling that you will either say that this post was a personal attack, or twisting the Torah, as those are the only responses you have given so far. Or perhaps you would yet again say that frum jews need to have hakaras hatov also.

    if you do so, you will confirm that you are just trying to argue, but not get anywhere.

    #1656878

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, do you object to asking Hashem to bestow wisdom on those in power?

    #1656907

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Joseph, do you object to asking Hashem to bestow wisdom on those in power?

    If those in power have goals we don’t want them to achieve, it doesn’t make sense to pray for them to have wisdom.

    #1656909

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have an idea. If those who work for the Israeli government want the tefilos of the chareidim, they should be עוסק בצרכי צבור באמונה. Then they will be included in the tefilah we say every week.

    #1656928

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m just trying to clarify if there are limits. Should Yekkish Yidden living in Berlin in the ’30’s have davened for the National Socialist government of Germany or for its army or for its leaders’ wisdom?

    In any event, the Religious Zionists aren’t simply demanding everyone say the same tefilia in Israel for the Israeli government as Jews in Australia say for the Australian government. They’re demanding a specially composed prayer for the Israeli Army and other miscellany not found in the standard traditional tefila for the local government of wherever Jews happen to live. So it is an apples to oranges comparison to make the connection to the general government tefila.

    #1656977

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph: You are ignorant in History and the Torah! Please learn a little prior to answering further. Yes, Jews davvened for the Czar even when they were persecuted! So stop being a tippish and stating stupid things! Religious Zionist are not demanding anything! The question is are YOU following the Torah? You will find siddurim from England, Russia, US, Amsterdam all having tefflios for the local government, even when the Jews were persecuted. No one cares what teffilah you say, but a teffilah should be said based on the Torah. So you really need to put a sock in it because you are spewing hatred and ignorance.

    #1657009

    Joseph
    Participant

    anon1m0us:

    #1: What evidence do you have the Yidden in Germany davened for Hitler, Yidden in Iran davened for the Ayatollahs and Yidden in Syria davened for Assad?

    #2: Are you saying that you’ll be happy if Yidden in Israel daven for the government with the same tefila Yidden in Australia daven for their government, and the RZs will stop denouncing Chareidim as such?

    #1657152

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Jospeh: please reread my posts again. I clearly stated since WW1 yidden stopped in Germany for ethical reasons. Did all shuls stop, I do not know. What we DO know is Jews did davven for the Czar even during pogroms and forced conscription of their children to the army. That is an historical fact.

    The halacha is to davven for your own goverment first. The RZ k owns that. However, achainu kol bais yisroel…..when your brother is in harms way, you should davvens for their safety. If the Russian army has mostly jews, then yes, davven for them too. However, Israel has the largest army of Jews, and one ahould davven for them, especially if you are sitting and learning as they are protecting you.

    #1657178

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    On your other point for davvening for the state, keep in mind, Rabbi Chaninna lived under the Roman Empire, which slaughtered Jews, and enslaved Jews whenever they felt like it (besides the facts of the churban habayis). The government was appointed by the Romans; much of the time Hellenistic Jews who despised the charadim and tried to assist in doing away with the Torah as we know it . Still, he recommend to davven for the welfare from the government. Would you really equate the Israeli Government to the Romans? Would you really equate the Israeli government to Hitler? Just to clarify, if you live in chutz laaretz, you do not have an obligation to pray for the Israeli government. It is only to the country you live in. However, if you live in Eretz Yisroel, I do not see how you can bypass a mishna, navi, and historical facts. I would love to be enlightened on this.

    #1657208

    Joseph
    Participant

    anon1m0us: Then, at most, your taaina against Jews in Israel who don’t say a prayer for the government is the same as your taaina against American Jews who don’t say a special weekly or daily prayer for the American government.

    Instead of focusing this complaint specifically against Yidden in Israel, make your complaint against Yidden anywhere in the world for not saying a tefila for their local government.

    There’s nothing more special about the Israeli government than the American government or Australian government. As an aside, not necessarily directly relevant to this point or discussion, America is a greater Medina Shel Chesed for Yidden than the Israeli government. Additionally, due to the violation of the shalosh shavuos and/or a government of Jews who trample Halacha, many have the strong shitta that the Israeli government is more illegitimate than other governments. For them there’s even less of a taaina that they don’t say a tefila for the Israeli government even if they would do so in America for the American government.

    #1657327

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph: you are right, but the thread is not about a teffilah for the government. Its about a teffilah for our brothers in harms way.

    #1657337

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    As usual anon1mous you have lied again. Your entire point was from the mishna that talked about davening for shlom malchus.you are living in your own fantasy land

    #1657341

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Side topic: the concept of shalosh shavuos is not what most yeshivous teach. For example: besides that the fact the umos had to keep their end of the deal ( like we see the concept by miztrayim) the gra holds it only applied to the bais hamikdash, not eretz yisroel. R chaim Vital holds it only applied for 1000 years. The author of Hafla’ah held it only applied to galus bavel. So there are big posken who don’t agree with that is taught in todays yeshivous.

    However, if one holds like the other posken that it does apply, the shavuah is not about creating a state, but on the individuals not to go to eretz yisroel (“shelo yaalu bachoma”). This means that the yeshivas must close down and come back to chutz laaratz.

    #1657345

    Joseph
    Participant

    anon1m0us: You’re the one who brought the tefila for the local government argument into this discussion.

    In and event, since you now are arguing “about a teffilah for our brothers in harms way”, I’m sure you’ll be pleased to learn that virtually every Chareidi Yeshiva and laymen make such tefilas routinely. In fact, whenever there’s an eis tzara in Eretz Yisroel, whether c”v a war or terror attacks, the Chareidi yeshivos both in Eretz Yisroel and in chutz laaretz make special tefilas and tehilim for the situation aside from their regular tefilas they have on more routine times.

    So you can now rest assured that this issue is in fact a non-issue.

    #1657378

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph,

    1. Medinat Yisrael is the first flowering of our redemption. In Rav Kook’s words, the foundation of Hashem’s throne in this world.

    2. Without Medinat Yisrael there would have been mass conversion in the wake of the Holocaust as Xtian missionaries were using it as proof that Hashem abandoned us c”v.

    3. The shelosh shevuot are no longer in effect – if they ever were. I have posted about this several times.

    #1657468

    Joseph
    Participant

    On page 147 of Aim HaBanim Semecha he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like Rabbi Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”

    Ok. Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet Rabbi Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over.

    Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.

    And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:

    “ ’Whoever becomes an leader in this world becomes evil in the next world’ (Rambam, Tur). The world explains this to refer to the lay leaders, like presidents of congregations, which in many congregations this is true. But if we’re going to talk about our generation and our days, it can be referring to the Rabbonim as well, unfortunately …” – Divrei Torah III:47

    “ ‘Whevener there are Reshaim in the world, there is suffering in the world. Who are Reshaim? The robbers.’ (Sanhedrin 113b). This is referring to the fake leaders who “rob” the truth form the people, because they act like Tzadikim and act for their own benefit. They prevent the redemption. Hashem should save us from them.” – ibid 58

    “There are Rebbes (“admorim”) who are fakers, they make believe they are Tzadikim, are meyached yichudim, and dress like Rebbes or rabbis. This is all the doing of the Satan in order to bring the public (followers) to sin” – ibid V:82

    “The reason why Jews in Germany can learn heresy and still remain religious is because they are like the people who are immune to poison because they are used to drinking it and so have so much of it in their system. So too the German Jews, they are soused to the poison of secularism since they are habituated in it from childhood little by little, that this does not hurt them. That is why they are immune to the bad influence of the Mizrachi and the Agudah as well.” – ibid IV:93

    “’And you shall love your neighbor like yourself’ – this means, just like there are different parts of you that you care about more – for instance, you care more about heaving your head than your feet – so too we love the Tzadikim more than we do others. The lowest level is those who are like our fingernails, also part of us, but we clip them off and discard them. These people too are like fingernails that need to be separated from the rest of us, and this is for the benefit of Klall Yisroel.” – ibid II:39

    Anyway, the following is Rabbi Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”. I promise I am not making this up:

    First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:

    “And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98

    I promise I did not make that up. In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach.

    Now never mind how Rabbi Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous. It’s downright absurd, and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of over rating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second. And to attribute such an attitude to him of all people, is nothing less than the stuff of la la land. And that’s besides the arrogance of saying that he is more able to discern how deserving Klal Yisroel is of greeting Moshiach than the Minchas Elozor.

    #1657474

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph: This is the crux of the issue ” In fact, whenever there’s an eis tzara in Eretz Yisroel…” Teffilos should be said BEFORE there is an Eis Tzara! The fact that yeshiva bochurim are able to peacefully sit a learn, they should be saying a tefillah EVERYDAY for their brothers who are putting themselves into danger.

    #1657495

    ZionGate
    Participant

    And would Joseph tell us about the Minchas Elazar not allowing Belz into Munkatch, and the ensuing bitterness which eventually brought a grudging agreement ???

    #1657492

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Wow. .. Had to get in just once to respond to this hazarei….
    Those interested in Eim Habonim Semeicha can read it in the original, or in the excellent English translation by Rabbi Moshe Lichtman,and not to rely on snippets by Joseph, and you will see halachic proofs as well as tons of proofs supporting his position..
    ” …. It’s downright absurd, and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozar.. .”….:Rav Teichtal was in fact his talmid and knew everything about him, you didn’t.
    Calling this great tzaddik dishonest and arrogant is a reflection on yourself. The fact is that many more tzaddikim whether they were his contemporaries or not, agreed with him. Lifting a coupla paragraphs and expecting long- winded responses is futile and this thread will go on endlessly…You’re on the side of rabbonim to whose positions you adhere, fine.
    Obviously, you don’t consider the other side as authoritative… I do, many do. So when you and those in agreement speak of gedolim, you mean YOUR gedolim… In the meantime, EY is a miracle a moment, an ingathering as never before, extraordinary happenings that weren’t even imagined 80 years ago.. We prefer our side, Hashem is with them and the Redemption is nearer by the day. Rav Teichtal, Hy”d was correct…
    I’ll also beg you not to bring the Satmar rebbe or his shita here, because there ‘s much I can write about it, and I’m confident that the Mods will not allow it through, so go easy, buddy…. Moshiach did not come for Minchas Elazar…. he has a good chance to come for us..

    #1657487

    Avi K
    Participant

    Here we go again. I see that I will have to post this four hundred times.
    1. The pasukim cited refer to the kelei hamikdash, not the people.
    2. They are aggadata. Aggadata cannot be understood literally (Rambam, Intro. to Perek Chelek).
    3. They are not brought down in any of the codes.
    4. According to Rav Chaim Vital they were only for 1,000 years (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8).
    5. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo conference repealed them as the other nations agreed.
    6. According to Rav Soloveichik (Kol Dodi Dofek) Hashemn has called.
    7. The other nations violated their oath not to persecute us too much on several occasions (Crusades, Chmielnitzky massacres, pogroms, Petlura massacres, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off (Sotah 10a with Rashi d”h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech and Shulchan Aruch YD 236,6).

    #1657514

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Plus, Avnei Nezer explains that klal Yisrael never assembled to accept the oaths, and are not bound by it.. Yore Deah 2:454:56

    #1657518

    Avi K
    Participant

    Plus, Ramban (Sefer haMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) says that there is an obligation in our time to conquer EY. Plus, Rav Kook (Hesped b’Yerushalayim) said that Mashiach ben Yosef, whose job is kibbutz galuyot and the physical building of EY (see Kol haTor of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin), has come. He is either Herzl or the Zionist movement in general (RK does not specify).

    #1657548

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    I just read Rav Kook’s hesped speech for the first time.

    1. It seems that he is saying towards the end that the zionist movement is anti Torah, and halevai would not be against the torah if they would work with the torah…. I think is what he said…
    2. Avi k- he did not say that the state or herzl is mashiach ben yosef…..why do you need to continuously put words into people’s mouths?? he said very clearly that herzl was the ikvisa demishicha. THAT DOES NOT MEAN MESHICA!!! I know that you will ignore this point, as you have only done just that in the past.

    3. But either way, good news! it seems clear from what he writes, that this dichotomy between the two different sides is above all pratim and specifics when it comes to proving your position! you can come up with whatever svaras, or proofs that you want, but it doesn’t matter.
    It is all about the chiluk between the bechina of mashiach ben yosef and mashiach ben dovid. since the two sides are vastly different, although they both work towards the geula, they cannot get along.

    Im not being sarcastic at all. Please do not think that I am.

    manitou, avi k, anonymous, etc,- i can understand that maybe joseph will not consider rav kook to be a valid source. That is Joseph’s issue.

    but If YOU DO hold rav kook to be a valid source, it should give you an understanding as to why some may be so vehemently opposed to the state of israel, as those feelings are coming, validly, from the bechina of mashiach ben dovid.
    We can now understand how there are two different sides, with both strong and important opinions, and they do not contradict each other, because they are both working towards mashiach.

    Do you not agree with this? nobody should be attacking people when they say things against the state of israel, because we should know that it is only coming from bechinas mashiach ben dovid.

    perhaps you will continue to argue, saying nope, they are just reshaim, and then you will have missed the point completely. You will not be hearing the words of your own rebbe, Rav kook Ztz”l.

    We want Mashiach now, and along with Mashiach, Shalom

    .

    #1657578

    ZionGate
    Participant

    It should be noted that Rav Teichtal was an unparalled Torah ilui, and wrote the sefer by memory without benefit of seforim from his hideout in Budapest. He refers to it several times throughout.

    #1657718

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Sefer Aim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though Rav Teichtel was a Talmid Chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.

    Aim HaBanim Semecha is not even taken seriously outside of Zionist circles, because it is mostly emotional sermons and droshos, rather than a serious Halachic analysis. It’s an emotional outcry in response to the holocaust (he dates the introduction Parshas Tetzaveh 1943) and its clear that he was talking out of desperation for finding a safe haven for Jews, which many felt Eretz Yisroel would be. He confuses his personal feelings with Halachic methodology, Rebbishe vertlach with Halachic rulings, and so is not at all compelling.

    Rabbi Teichtel’s sefer comes without any Haskomos form anybody. But he did want Haskomos, so what he did was – I am not making this up either, I promise – he took Haskomos out of another sefer, and printed them in his sefer, saying that the Haskomos would certainly apply to his sefer too, since the 2 seforim generally say the same things. But none of the rabbis of his time – not a sngle one – wrote him a haskama.

    Another note: Aim HaBanim Semechah speaks basically about building the land. The topic of creating a sovereign state – which was the major objection to Zionism – is almost completely ignored. Perhaps this is what the Lubavitcher Rebbe meant (told to the author’s son, quoted in the introduction, p. 21 ) when he told the son of author to “publicize that your father was a G-d fearing Jew who was far away from Zionism”. I would think this is because in his sefer he never argues in favor of a Jewish State, but rather in favor of building up the land.

    #1657754

    Avi K
    Participant

    Takes,

    1. Read it again. He says MBY explicitly. Here is one statement:
    בתור עקבא דמשיח בן יוסף, נתגלה חזיון הציונות בדורנו,

    He also says that Ephraim (Yosef) is the material side and Yehuda the spiritual side but that they cannot yet work together. In his letters he also says that the reason for the secular Zionists’ anti-Torah attitude is that they do not understand that the Torah includes nationalism and that this was caused by the galut. In fact, his son and continuation Rav Tzvi Yehuda did not like the term “dati leumi” as it implies that the two are separate but some hold by both.

    2. We cannot have anything “now”. We have to work for everything. We have to work for professions, for Torah and for Mashiach ben David. This is a gradual process (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). One very important factor is ridding ourselves of sinat chinam and factionalism. Another is to be thankful for what Hashem has already given us. Phil Chernofsky, the Education Director of the OU Israel Center, compared it to three brothers who were hit by a car while playing in the street. They were eventually released from the hospital but needed outpatient treatment. One brother said that if they were released it meant that there was nothing more necessary. One said that if they stil needed treatment there was nothing for which to be thankful. The third thanked Hashem for being brought so far and prayed for the future.

    #1657792

    manitou
    Participant

    Avi K
    I feel for you trying to knock sense into people that are not tethered to reality, People that think that Torah is in an alternate universe. It’s pathetic to bring proofs from people when we have reality. 100 years ago it was up for debate, most weren’t on the side of Harav Kook (there were some but the Satmar way is to totally discredit anyone they disagree with so they became irrelevant). After the holocaust it became more reasonable but still perhaps not the right way to go. But now it’s just so obvious to anyone that has eyes that the future of klal yisrael is in eretz yisrael.

    It is the only comeback story in the history of the world. It is a success beyond anything anyone could’ve imagined in any field that you want to name. If only the chareidim will partake in the incredible bracha we could only imagine what it would become.

    #1657802

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Joseph,
    Again, you bring “famous” rabbonim, but you don’t know those who were pro-Zionist because they were basically ignored.
    But all that doesn’t mean anything anymore because regurgitating the past is not facing the vivid reality starting in 1948.. Hashem DID want the State, and, voila, here it is BH.. ATZAS HASHEM HIE TAKUM… That’s what’s true and real.. Denial is forever useless.. Have a great day.

    #1657816

    ZionGate
    Participant

    On the 20th of Tevet, 5709, Rabbis Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Sarna, Zalman Sorotzkin signed a document thanking Hashem for beginning of Redemption by establishment of State of Israel . Centuries earlier, Ohr Hachayim wrote that Moshiach wil arise like a regular leader within framework of a regular government ( Bamidbar)… Ramban, Radak say essentially the same thing. These gedolim are everybody’s favorites.
    Rabbis Kalicsher, Alkalai, closer to our times also said the same thing… Denial of realty is no fodder for serious discussion, but ok, I guess for a blog.

    #1657861

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Vayoel Moshe, huh??….
    Well, …. you know what? …. lemme stop…

    #1658023

    Avi K
    Participant

    ZG, someone else who calls himself a rabbi said that secular soldiers who die for Israel go to Gehennom. He based this on a seance(!) conducted by a “famous rabbi” named Rami Levy (Rami Levy is actually the owner of a discount supermarket chain and while he is traditional he is definitely not a rabbi). Apparently there is a famous rabbis course.

    #1658101

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Avi.. It’s sick. One of the holy places in EY is Har Herzl.

    #1661015

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Joseph, Joseph, Joseph. Still plagiarizing from Frumteens without attribution. I thought you were beyond that already.

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