The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests
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- This topic has 282 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 2 months ago by yichusdik.
December 27, 2018 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1652881
Anon1mous- ok, so it is pikuach nefesh. Why does that mean if they decide to band together an army, for pikuach nefesh, that it is an army of klal yisrael that everyone needs to join? It is for pikuach nefesh alone, hilchos melchama do not apply to a case of pikuach nefesh.
And again, even if it would be a real halachic army, it would only be ages 20 to 60. How can you force them at 18 and still claim mitzvah?December 27, 2018 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1652908
There are two issues, 1 is decency so if there would be a need for soldiers in America to protect Americans then it doesn’t make sense that the goyim should have to protect us and we shouldn’t chip in. If it doesn’t fit with our lifestyle then we would not be able to live here in good conscience. BH we aren’t needed for America’s protection.
2) in Eretz Yisroel there is a Mitzvah and a chiyuv to help defend the Yidden and the land. It doesn’t say anywhere that Frum people or lomdei Torah aren’t obligated to participate in this Mitzvah.
The only reason that Frum people don’t want to participate is the lifestyle of the secular Israeli army and that can be changed if there is a will on both sides. Obviously this last paragraph does not pertain to those who hold like Satmar although I’m not sure why since defending Yidden shouldn’t be tied in with gimel shavuos.December 27, 2018 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1652923american_yerushalmiParticipant
There is a vast “army” of thousands of men and women who carry out all sorts of tasks that help ensure the security of the state. Some of these “tasks” are extremely dangerous. But very many of these people work long hours in an “office” somewhere in Israel or elsewhere. They are reading, listening, observing, analyzing all sorts of information that comes their way. That is their job. Most people have no inkling of what these people are doing, or why it’s important. The people in charge of security DO understand the importance of these peoples’ work. Very many of these people have never worn the green IDF uniform and never will. They go home to a warm bed every night instead sleeping in a muddy foxhole. But, the security chiefs all recognize the importance of their contribution.
So, the gedolei harabbonim have instructed us that there is another “security agency” that provides additional, critical layer of protection whose value is incalculable. Even if many people outside this organization don’t quite understand what they’re doing. The yeshivas in which the lomdei Torah are toiling is that additional security agency. One that the public at large knows and understands virtually nothing. This is a dimension of spiritual protection about which the leaders of the state and the security establishment have nothing to say, since they don’t even understand what it is. But, the manhigei hador do understand it, and frum Jews ought to as well.ought to as well.December 27, 2018 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1652936
That’s nice that not everyone needs to be on the front lines but who gets to decide who will be on the front line? shouldn’t it be the same proportion?
As far as learning goes, its a nice and important thing for everyone to do but it has nothing to do with the chiyuv of defending against enemies (MILCHEMES CHOVA).December 27, 2018 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1652945Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
The burden of proof falls on the person making the chiddush. You know that every major posek does not hold of a chiyuv to join the IDF and actively discourages it. Why don’t you bring a proof of someone who DOES hold of your milchemes chova idea? As far as I can tell, it’s one individual CR user bringing proofs from tanach versus every mainstream rabbi.
The proof that they don’t hold by your theory is evident in the fact that they discourage joining the IDF. So, instead of asking us to find places where they specifically address your weird, new defense for drafting Chareidim, why don’t you supply one actual person who agrees with you.
Your scrambling to preserve your intellectual honesty by claiming we would theoretically have a chiyuv to join the American army proves the weakness of your stance. How much more could I get you do admit in your quest for consistency? Would we have a chiyuv to serve in the Czar’s army if Russia needed defense? Would we have a chiyuv to serve in Mussolini’s army if he needed soldiers? You have completely invented this idea that Jews are halchically bound to join the army of whatever country they happen to be residing in. It’s just not true, and nobody before you has ever claimed it is.December 27, 2018 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1652967
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that whenever someone’s argument becomes incoherent he will pull out the “gedolim joker”.
Sharing the burden is completely rational to anyone, yid or goy, frum or secular. Milchemes chova is not a chiddush, its called self defense, Interestingly the mitzvohs are completely rational.
I never said its a mitzva to join a gentile army, you can read what I wrote very clearly diffrentiating between yidden or goyim but then again it seems they didnt teach simple reading and logic skills in chaim berlin.December 27, 2018 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1652981
manitou: You failed to address the parallel that American_Yerushalmi provided you comparing it to the intelligence officers who work in offices behind computers and never enter any foxholes or front lines. Or, to use another example, the mechanics who fix the army jeeps; they too don’t fight as soldiers.
So too the Yeshivaleit who work in the Beis Medrash defending Jews all over. Like the intelligence unit, they too never wear the army fatigues.December 27, 2018 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1652973
Re: Major Posek
1….”Major’ is a subjective word… Rabbanim on the side which you don’t respect, hold different.
2…. Even some of your “major” ravs held that non-learners should join the army.. I already mentioned a few…. Many times they’re threatened into silence or totally retract ( See Rav Shteiman in my previous post ).
3…. Don’t believe every statement coming out of a rav/rebbe’s court.. We live in an age of forgery, fraud and many kol korahs are Mezuyef thru & thru. The forged signatures, retractions, denials are rampant in EY and in the USA… You can’t believe a word a rav says until it’s been verified a million times. Even going back to the Chazon Ish… The version of any given incident/conversation involving him exhausts a library..
4…. I’m questions the motives of some of those who are against it.. May I ?? This is a way to keep their business at home… They’re afraid of losing control, talmidim, business, $$$ and kavod.. Not only is the IDF a threat ( which may make some sense) , but against the bocharam going to work, or even to trade schools and earn a decent living. They want to own them… IOW- not Leshem Shomayim.
5…. Forcing only chilonim to risk their blood and lives, is a crime. Who says so ?? Every rational Jew with feelings..For this we don’t need a posek.December 27, 2018 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1652991
Neville, I know of no such thing. Of course, you can claim that only your officially recognized poskim are major leaguers but I dispute you.December 27, 2018 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1652995
yeshivaleit in Bais Medrash are not defending Jews all over. Everyone has a chiyuv of Talmud Torah and it is an essential part of who we are but it is not called defense.December 27, 2018 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1653016
Avi K, ZionGate
The standard operating procedure of the kanoim especially Satmar is to totally discredit anyone who is from another camp or shita such as what they did to Rav Kook, Rav Mendel Kasher, Harav Khati, and Harav Shteinzaltz to name a few. Then they say nobody argues with their shita. This way they silence even those that disagree with themDecember 27, 2018 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1653018
manitou: And there lies the problem with your misunderstanding of Limud Torah and what it accomplishes.December 27, 2018 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1653034
Ziongate, where is your post about rav shteinman? I only see one remotely similar by avi k.
Are you the same person?December 27, 2018 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1653044
Let’s hear- What does it accomplish?December 27, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1653058
I’m very, very familiar with Satmar tactics going back decades, so you don’t have to tell me. I didn’t read about it, I was around when they occurred… I’m not 35 years old anymore…. They’re trying to reinvent and revise some of the events, but I’ll challenge them anytime, anyplace.December 27, 2018 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1653072
Ok, im not satmar, but im still seeking responses to my pointsDecember 27, 2018 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1653073
Limud hatorah helps the entire world. Only an apikores says a learner learns for himself. -rambam? Chazal? (One of those)December 28, 2018 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1653410
Nobody says people shouldn’t learn or do any othe Mitzvos for that matter but what does it have to do with national defense. Halacha is very clear that when there is an issue with an enemy there is an obligation on all to pick up a weapon, not to pick up a Sefer.December 28, 2018 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1653430american_yerushalmiParticipant
Manitou: if you think the gedolei harabbonim are making a mistake in halacha — take it up with them. Stop hocking a chainik in the CR trying to persuade people that you are right and the rabbonim are wrong. You ought to realize by now that you’re not going to get anywhere by telling people that you understand halacha better than their rabbonim.December 28, 2018 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1653434
There is something seriously wrong with you people.
What is your response about the 20 to 60 requirement?December 28, 2018 6:27 am at 6:27 am #1653435
i posted that it seems thag avik and ziongate are the same person, and ywn did not post it. This is not a free speech place, it is worse than any jewish media outlet there is.
Ywn is not michapes the emes. Hence they are tomchei sheker vikazav.December 28, 2018 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1653452
The real issue is that the Chareidi sector is a victim of its own success. It is possible that in a small group all will be full-time learners and that the rest will agree to support them/ However, according to the Law of Large Numbers there will be many who are unfit. They will full out in some manner, either by going completely OTD or RZ and leave, hanging around Chareidi community and causing trouble or looking for other forms of action like violent demonstrations. Moreover, the rest will not support them and there are no gevirim from a generation that worked in their own communities. So either Chareidi is going to have to go back to what it was or the Chareidi gedolim will have to push out all those who cannot make the cut, hope that they go to another Orthodox stream and be satisfied with small communities.December 28, 2018 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1653507Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Manitou: I knew what you meant the first time you said the thing about gedolim. This is how the religious world (which clearly you aren’t a part of) works. We don’t make up our own shittas. Since you have absolutely nobody worth anything backing you up, I really don’t want you waste any more time with you.
By the way, the IDF is a “gentile army.” Israel is a goyish state. If you bring a fellow to a secular court in Israel instead of a beis din, you’re over an issur. We don’t accept the myth of the Jewish state.December 28, 2018 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1653510
Take3tomakemangoes- simple…dina dilmachusah. You need to follow the law of the land. Since this is NOT a halactic army they do not need to follow the Torah. However, people as citizens in this land need to follow the halacha. The other choice is leaving, like Jews have always done throughout the ages when forced to violate the Torah or principles they hold dear.December 28, 2018 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1653532
You can keep saying that you have Daas Torah but you still haven’t brought one serious Teshuva or chazal or Rambam to back you up. I don’t think you realize that any supposed Daas Torah is based on chazal and Halacha, not just some feeling.
As far as Israel being a goyish state, that goes clearly against the Rambam when he talks about the reason we celebrate Chanukah שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה and he like everyone who is serious knows what type of rule there was in bayis sheini after the first two generations of the chashmonaim, especially bais hurdus. Still the Rambam understood that it’s better to Be in eretz Yisrael under our own sovereignty rather than under goyim. Can it be better? Of course but serious people don’t look only at the problems, they also appreciate the good that there is.December 28, 2018 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1653535
The Ran paskens:
1. Every Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel.
2. Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply in Eretz Yisroel.December 28, 2018 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1653542
Mima nafshach-if its a jewish state, jewish laws should apply.
If they should be sent to the army, it should be at 20 and older.
If its not considered a state bound by halacha, why should people go to the army? Just like any other army that we wouldnt say dina dimalchusa dina, go to the army. We would try to avoid it, because it disrupts our ability to live a normal life, and it is dangerous.December 28, 2018 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1653545
Israel has the same halachic status that British Palestine and Ottoman Palestine had. For their army, for their laws and for their government.December 28, 2018 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1653585
On what do you base your halachic ruling? The Rambam clearly implies that jewish sovereignty doesn’t have to be Frum tzadikim. Like most of Bayis rishon and sheini we didn’t have big tzadikim and sometimes big reshoim in power, yet it is considered malchus Yisrael.December 28, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1653594
manitou,…[email protected] 3:03,
It doesn’t matter. Their premise is that before Moshiach, no Jewish government should never exist even if its run by all lav-vov tzaddikim. The “secular ” issue that opponents of the medinah talk about , is not, on a deeper level, their main beef. They don’t believe in Jewish sovereignty ,period… No Rambam or anybody else will convince them..20, 60, dina d’malchusah, etc… are just bones to pick..
The more extreme, wish for its destruction altogether, rachmana litzlon… Hashem Yeracheim and forgive their speech..December 28, 2018 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1653607
I meant @ 3:26December 28, 2018 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1653609
I fully understand what they’re saying, I just want to point out that it’s not based on Torah, it’s just based on feelings. They justifiably feel uncomfortable with secular Yidden running the show so they will live in denial of Halacha. Satmar on the other hand has a Torah based shitah to deal with this basic problem but BH nobody takes seriously.December 29, 2018 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1653615
Agreed…. Gotta run… Shabbat ShalomDecember 29, 2018 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1653617
Joseph, have you sought professional help for your issues? You obviously are overcompensating for guilt feelings about not living in EY.December 29, 2018 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1653694
I am not satmar. I dont want a single yid to die anywhere.
I am happy there is a jewish state, and would love to live there.
Now, what is your response to the 20 to 60 question? Feelings are not involved here. 20 to 60 is not a feeling.
Its amazing how liberals will turn around what you are saying and accuse you of the very thing that they are being accused of.
It has already been said that that you are the one without a halachic source.
I have never learned any shittos of satmar, and to be honest, am not a fan of satmar at all.December 29, 2018 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1653718
What about 20-60 ?
The Halacha is straightforward, self defense is a milchemes chova .December 29, 2018 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1653734Ben LParticipant
Can we get a couple of things clear?
Fact 1: Combat service even in Tzhal is completley voluntary if a draftee does not wish to serve in a combat position they do not.
As such it is ludicrous to state that someone was forced to serve in combat zones because of chareidim .
Fact 2: THe Medinat Yisrael was founded upon several compromises with the chareidim one of which was that yeshiva bochrim would not be forced to serve in the army. If the chilonim had not agreed the chareidim were willing to publicly disavow the founding of the Medina similarly to Neturei Karta of the time. The chilonim agreed thinking that the yeshiva world would eventually disintegrate. The opposite has happened =, the chiloni youth actively try to get out of the army, in fact many of them try to get out of the country while the Yeshivas have boomed.
Fact 3: There are more then enough fervently dati leumi who believe that the founding of the Medina is aschalta dgeula they do not just serve in the Army they relish the opportunity for they feel it is a Mitzvah that brings Moshiach. That chinuch is completely the opposite of chareidim who believe the state should never have been founded and in fact is ossur because of the shalosh shevuos.December 29, 2018 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1653780
Regarding Fact 1 – I don’t know if it is voluntary as to which unit one is assigned to but that is beside the point. The question is does the responsibility of defense fall on everyone besides for the chareidi community?
Regarding fact 2- the medinas Yisrael was not founded on a compromise with the chareidim. The Charedim never even asked for a ptur, the chazon ish asked that there should be a ptur for some lomdei Torah. He never asked for a complete ptur of all responsibility.
Fact 3- true, but that still doesn’t stop the massive chilul Hashem that the chilonim see that the people most representative of the Torah completely shirk their collective responsibility.December 29, 2018 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1653786
Right, so once again its all about feelings. I can also believe that it is the aschalta digeula, and I do, that does not change my opinion about the army. Of all the people that I know that have joined, family and friends included, are no longer frum, in fact, they are anti frum.
That is something that can be seen with the eyes. It isnt a hope, pr a dream, its reality. People go in and come out less or not frum. The risk is high, benefits are low.
And Once again, once they have filled their quota, there is no need for more draftees. Why put someone in the army that will not do anything to protect the country, like you said, they are only in the army for the sake of being in the army.December 30, 2018 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1653798
Don’t know what people are talking about. This is a jewish state, not a religious state. They do not need to follow halacha. You need to. Dina dilmachusa applies to any government the Jews live under.
The age 20-60 may have been written in the Torah, but most Jewish kings never followed the Torah!December 30, 2018 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1653806
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course they need to follow halacha.December 30, 2018 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1653810
Ben and Manitou, “fact” 3 is also false. Only the Satmars and NKs said that founding a state was assur because of the non-shevuot (I have already posted about this several times). Many Chareidim actually supported it. For example, the head of the Aguda signed the Declaration of Indepence. SOthers opposed because they thought that the Arabs would overrun it in response. The Americans and British also thought that. They were wrong and BG was right.December 30, 2018 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1653814TryingToStayCalmBlocked
The army doesn’t need the charedim and the army isn’t a kosher place.December 30, 2018 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1653831
The IDF very much needs the Chareidim and it is a holy place. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said that when he felt the need to go to kivrei tzadikkim he goes to the military cemetery on Mt. Herzl.December 30, 2018 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1653835
Again, this is NOT a halacha army. They may assist with your religious requirements but are not required to. The law is everyone must serve in it. As a chesed, they allowed people who register that they are learning to be exempt. No other country does that. People have 3 options:
1) join the army
2) register to say you are learning.
3) leave the country
This is not that difficult to understand. If it help most people here, replace Jewish state with Arab state. Faced with those 3 options, what would one do?December 30, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1653846
it is a holy place
You’re mamash off your rockerDecember 30, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1653847
No other country does that.
I’m pretty sure the US isn’t drafting yeshiva bochurim.December 30, 2018 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1653864
Daas: the US doesnt have active draft laws. Durikg vietnam, if you were not in Yeshivish, you were draftedDecember 30, 2018 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1653876
Daas: the US doesnt have active draft laws.
Exactly. It’s kind of silly to say how Israel is the only country which makes an exception to the draft when other countries don’t have a draft to begin with.
Durikg vietnam, if you were not in Yeshivish, you were drafted
Don’t you think most frum people did whatever they could to avoid going to the army?December 30, 2018 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1653884
Also, they’re dafting yeshiva bochurim.
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