The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 283 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1652881

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Anon1mous- ok, so it is pikuach nefesh. Why does that mean if they decide to band together an army, for pikuach nefesh, that it is an army of klal yisrael that everyone needs to join? It is for pikuach nefesh alone, hilchos melchama do not apply to a case of pikuach nefesh.

    And again, even if it would be a real halachic army, it would only be ages 20 to 60. How can you force them at 18 and still claim mitzvah?

    #1652908

    manitou
    Participant

    Neville chaimberlin

    There are two issues, 1 is decency so if there would be a need for soldiers in America to protect Americans then it doesn’t make sense that the goyim should have to protect us and we shouldn’t chip in. If it doesn’t fit with our lifestyle then we would not be able to live here in good conscience. BH we aren’t needed for America’s protection.

    2) in Eretz Yisroel there is a Mitzvah and a chiyuv to help defend the Yidden and the land. It doesn’t say anywhere that Frum people or lomdei Torah aren’t obligated to participate in this Mitzvah.

    The only reason that Frum people don’t want to participate is the lifestyle of the secular Israeli army and that can be changed if there is a will on both sides. Obviously this last paragraph does not pertain to those who hold like Satmar although I’m not sure why since defending Yidden shouldn’t be tied in with gimel shavuos.

    #1652923

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    There is a vast “army” of thousands of men and women who carry out all sorts of tasks that help ensure the security of the state. Some of these “tasks” are extremely dangerous. But very many of these people work long hours in an “office” somewhere in Israel or elsewhere. They are reading, listening, observing, analyzing all sorts of information that comes their way. That is their job. Most people have no inkling of what these people are doing, or why it’s important. The people in charge of security DO understand the importance of these peoples’ work. Very many of these people have never worn the green IDF uniform and never will. They go home to a warm bed every night instead sleeping in a muddy foxhole. But, the security chiefs all recognize the importance of their contribution.
    So, the gedolei harabbonim have instructed us that there is another “security agency” that provides additional, critical layer of protection whose value is incalculable. Even if many people outside this organization don’t quite understand what they’re doing. The yeshivas in which the lomdei Torah are toiling is that additional security agency. One that the public at large knows and understands virtually nothing. This is a dimension of spiritual protection about which the leaders of the state and the security establishment have nothing to say, since they don’t even understand what it is. But, the manhigei hador do understand it, and frum Jews ought to as well.ought to as well.

    #1652936

    manitou
    Participant

    american yerushalmi

    That’s nice that not everyone needs to be on the front lines but who gets to decide who will be on the front line? shouldn’t it be the same proportion?

    As far as learning goes, its a nice and important thing for everyone to do but it has nothing to do with the chiyuv of defending against enemies (MILCHEMES CHOVA).

    #1652945

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The burden of proof falls on the person making the chiddush. You know that every major posek does not hold of a chiyuv to join the IDF and actively discourages it. Why don’t you bring a proof of someone who DOES hold of your milchemes chova idea? As far as I can tell, it’s one individual CR user bringing proofs from tanach versus every mainstream rabbi.

    The proof that they don’t hold by your theory is evident in the fact that they discourage joining the IDF. So, instead of asking us to find places where they specifically address your weird, new defense for drafting Chareidim, why don’t you supply one actual person who agrees with you.

    Your scrambling to preserve your intellectual honesty by claiming we would theoretically have a chiyuv to join the American army proves the weakness of your stance. How much more could I get you do admit in your quest for consistency? Would we have a chiyuv to serve in the Czar’s army if Russia needed defense? Would we have a chiyuv to serve in Mussolini’s army if he needed soldiers? You have completely invented this idea that Jews are halchically bound to join the army of whatever country they happen to be residing in. It’s just not true, and nobody before you has ever claimed it is.

    #1652967

    manitou
    Participant

    Neville Chaimberlin

    This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that whenever someone’s argument becomes incoherent he will pull out the “gedolim joker”.

    Sharing the burden is completely rational to anyone, yid or goy, frum or secular. Milchemes chova is not a chiddush, its called self defense, Interestingly the mitzvohs are completely rational.

    I never said its a mitzva to join a gentile army, you can read what I wrote very clearly diffrentiating between yidden or goyim but then again it seems they didnt teach simple reading and logic skills in chaim berlin.

    #1652981

    Joseph
    Participant

    manitou: You failed to address the parallel that American_Yerushalmi provided you comparing it to the intelligence officers who work in offices behind computers and never enter any foxholes or front lines. Or, to use another example, the mechanics who fix the army jeeps; they too don’t fight as soldiers.

    So too the Yeshivaleit who work in the Beis Medrash defending Jews all over. Like the intelligence unit, they too never wear the army fatigues.

    #1652973

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re: Major Posek
    1….”Major’ is a subjective word… Rabbanim on the side which you don’t respect, hold different.
    2…. Even some of your “major” ravs held that non-learners should join the army.. I already mentioned a few…. Many times they’re threatened into silence or totally retract ( See Rav Shteiman in my previous post ).
    3…. Don’t believe every statement coming out of a rav/rebbe’s court.. We live in an age of forgery, fraud and many kol korahs are Mezuyef thru & thru. The forged signatures, retractions, denials are rampant in EY and in the USA… You can’t believe a word a rav says until it’s been verified a million times. Even going back to the Chazon Ish… The version of any given incident/conversation involving him exhausts a library..
    4…. I’m questions the motives of some of those who are against it.. May I ?? This is a way to keep their business at home… They’re afraid of losing control, talmidim, business, $$$ and kavod.. Not only is the IDF a threat ( which may make some sense) , but against the bocharam going to work, or even to trade schools and earn a decent living. They want to own them… IOW- not Leshem Shomayim.
    5…. Forcing only chilonim to risk their blood and lives, is a crime. Who says so ?? Every rational Jew with feelings..For this we don’t need a posek.

    #1652991

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, I know of no such thing. Of course, you can claim that only your officially recognized poskim are major leaguers but I dispute you.

    #1652995

    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    yeshivaleit in Bais Medrash are not defending Jews all over. Everyone has a chiyuv of Talmud Torah and it is an essential part of who we are but it is not called defense.

    #1653016

    manitou
    Participant

    Avi K, ZionGate

    The standard operating procedure of the kanoim especially Satmar is to totally discredit anyone who is from another camp or shita such as what they did to Rav Kook, Rav Mendel Kasher, Harav Khati, and Harav Shteinzaltz to name a few. Then they say nobody argues with their shita. This way they silence even those that disagree with them

    #1653018

    Joseph
    Participant

    manitou: And there lies the problem with your misunderstanding of Limud Torah and what it accomplishes.

    #1653034

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Ziongate, where is your post about rav shteinman? I only see one remotely similar by avi k.
    Are you the same person?

    #1653044

    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph

    Let’s hear- What does it accomplish?

    #1653058

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Manitou,
    I’m very, very familiar with Satmar tactics going back decades, so you don’t have to tell me. I didn’t read about it, I was around when they occurred… I’m not 35 years old anymore…. They’re trying to reinvent and revise some of the events, but I’ll challenge them anytime, anyplace.

    #1653072

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Ok, im not satmar, but im still seeking responses to my points

    #1653073

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Limud hatorah helps the entire world. Only an apikores says a learner learns for himself. -rambam? Chazal? (One of those)

    #1653410

    manitou
    Participant

    takes3tomakemangos
    Nobody says people shouldn’t learn or do any othe Mitzvos for that matter but what does it have to do with national defense. Halacha is very clear that when there is an issue with an enemy there is an obligation on all to pick up a weapon, not to pick up a Sefer.

    #1653430

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Manitou: if you think the gedolei harabbonim are making a mistake in halacha — take it up with them. Stop hocking a chainik in the CR trying to persuade people that you are right and the rabbonim are wrong. You ought to realize by now that you’re not going to get anywhere by telling people that you understand halacha better than their rabbonim.

    #1653434

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    There is something seriously wrong with you people.

    What is your response about the 20 to 60 requirement?

    #1653435

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    i posted that it seems thag avik and ziongate are the same person, and ywn did not post it. This is not a free speech place, it is worse than any jewish media outlet there is.

    Ywn is not michapes the emes. Hence they are tomchei sheker vikazav.

    #1653452

    Avi K
    Participant

    The real issue is that the Chareidi sector is a victim of its own success. It is possible that in a small group all will be full-time learners and that the rest will agree to support them/ However, according to the Law of Large Numbers there will be many who are unfit. They will full out in some manner, either by going completely OTD or RZ and leave, hanging around Chareidi community and causing trouble or looking for other forms of action like violent demonstrations. Moreover, the rest will not support them and there are no gevirim from a generation that worked in their own communities. So either Chareidi is going to have to go back to what it was or the Chareidi gedolim will have to push out all those who cannot make the cut, hope that they go to another Orthodox stream and be satisfied with small communities.

    #1653507

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Manitou: I knew what you meant the first time you said the thing about gedolim. This is how the religious world (which clearly you aren’t a part of) works. We don’t make up our own shittas. Since you have absolutely nobody worth anything backing you up, I really don’t want you waste any more time with you.

    By the way, the IDF is a “gentile army.” Israel is a goyish state. If you bring a fellow to a secular court in Israel instead of a beis din, you’re over an issur. We don’t accept the myth of the Jewish state.

    #1653510

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Take3tomakemangoes- simple…dina dilmachusah. You need to follow the law of the land. Since this is NOT a halactic army they do not need to follow the Torah. However, people as citizens in this land need to follow the halacha. The other choice is leaving, like Jews have always done throughout the ages when forced to violate the Torah or principles they hold dear.

    #1653532

    manitou
    Participant

    Neville chaimberlin
    You can keep saying that you have Daas Torah but you still haven’t brought one serious Teshuva or chazal or Rambam to back you up. I don’t think you realize that any supposed Daas Torah is based on chazal and Halacha, not just some feeling.

    As far as Israel being a goyish state, that goes clearly against the Rambam when he talks about the reason we celebrate Chanukah שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה and he like everyone who is serious knows what type of rule there was in bayis sheini after the first two generations of the chashmonaim, especially bais hurdus. Still the Rambam understood that it’s better to Be in eretz Yisrael under our own sovereignty rather than under goyim. Can it be better? Of course but serious people don’t look only at the problems, they also appreciate the good that there is.

    #1653535

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Ran paskens:

    1. Every Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel.

    2. Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1653542

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Mima nafshach-if its a jewish state, jewish laws should apply.
    If they should be sent to the army, it should be at 20 and older.
    If its not considered a state bound by halacha, why should people go to the army? Just like any other army that we wouldnt say dina dimalchusa dina, go to the army. We would try to avoid it, because it disrupts our ability to live a normal life, and it is dangerous.

    #1653545

    Joseph
    Participant

    Israel has the same halachic status that British Palestine and Ottoman Palestine had. For their army, for their laws and for their government.

    #1653585

    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph

    On what do you base your halachic ruling? The Rambam clearly implies that jewish sovereignty doesn’t have to be Frum tzadikim. Like most of Bayis rishon and sheini we didn’t have big tzadikim and sometimes big reshoim in power, yet it is considered malchus Yisrael.

    #1653594

    ZionGate
    Participant

    manitou,….@ 3:03,
    It doesn’t matter. Their premise is that before Moshiach, no Jewish government should never exist even if its run by all lav-vov tzaddikim. The “secular ” issue that opponents of the medinah talk about , is not, on a deeper level, their main beef. They don’t believe in Jewish sovereignty ,period… No Rambam or anybody else will convince them..20, 60, dina d’malchusah, etc… are just bones to pick..
    The more extreme, wish for its destruction altogether, rachmana litzlon… Hashem Yeracheim and forgive their speech..

    #1653607

    ZionGate
    Participant

    I meant @ 3:26

    #1653609

    manitou
    Participant

    Ziongate
    I fully understand what they’re saying, I just want to point out that it’s not based on Torah, it’s just based on feelings. They justifiably feel uncomfortable with secular Yidden running the show so they will live in denial of Halacha. Satmar on the other hand has a Torah based shitah to deal with this basic problem but BH nobody takes seriously.

    #1653615

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Manitou,
    Agreed…. Gotta run… Shabbat Shalom

    #1653617

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, have you sought professional help for your issues? You obviously are overcompensating for guilt feelings about not living in EY.

    #1653694

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Once again.

    I am not satmar. I dont want a single yid to die anywhere.
    I am happy there is a jewish state, and would love to live there.

    Now, what is your response to the 20 to 60 question? Feelings are not involved here. 20 to 60 is not a feeling.

    Its amazing how liberals will turn around what you are saying and accuse you of the very thing that they are being accused of.
    It has already been said that that you are the one without a halachic source.
    I have never learned any shittos of satmar, and to be honest, am not a fan of satmar at all.

    #1653718

    manitou
    Participant

    Takes3tomakemangos
    What about 20-60 ?

    The Halacha is straightforward, self defense is a milchemes chova .

    #1653734

    Ben L
    Participant

    Can we get a couple of things clear?
    Fact 1: Combat service even in Tzhal is completley voluntary if a draftee does not wish to serve in a combat position they do not.
    As such it is ludicrous to state that someone was forced to serve in combat zones because of chareidim .

    Fact 2: THe Medinat Yisrael was founded upon several compromises with the chareidim one of which was that yeshiva bochrim would not be forced to serve in the army. If the chilonim had not agreed the chareidim were willing to publicly disavow the founding of the Medina similarly to Neturei Karta of the time. The chilonim agreed thinking that the yeshiva world would eventually disintegrate. The opposite has happened =, the chiloni youth actively try to get out of the army, in fact many of them try to get out of the country while the Yeshivas have boomed.

    Fact 3: There are more then enough fervently dati leumi who believe that the founding of the Medina is aschalta dgeula they do not just serve in the Army they relish the opportunity for they feel it is a Mitzvah that brings Moshiach. That chinuch is completely the opposite of chareidim who believe the state should never have been founded and in fact is ossur because of the shalosh shevuos.

    #1653780

    manitou
    Participant

    Ben L
    Regarding Fact 1 – I don’t know if it is voluntary as to which unit one is assigned to but that is beside the point. The question is does the responsibility of defense fall on everyone besides for the chareidi community?

    Regarding fact 2- the medinas Yisrael was not founded on a compromise with the chareidim. The Charedim never even asked for a ptur, the chazon ish asked that there should be a ptur for some lomdei Torah. He never asked for a complete ptur of all responsibility.

    Fact 3- true, but that still doesn’t stop the massive chilul Hashem that the chilonim see that the people most representative of the Torah completely shirk their collective responsibility.

    #1653786

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Right, so once again its all about feelings. I can also believe that it is the aschalta digeula, and I do, that does not change my opinion about the army. Of all the people that I know that have joined, family and friends included, are no longer frum, in fact, they are anti frum.
    That is something that can be seen with the eyes. It isnt a hope, pr a dream, its reality. People go in and come out less or not frum. The risk is high, benefits are low.
    And Once again, once they have filled their quota, there is no need for more draftees. Why put someone in the army that will not do anything to protect the country, like you said, they are only in the army for the sake of being in the army.

    #1653798

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Don’t know what people are talking about. This is a jewish state, not a religious state. They do not need to follow halacha. You need to. Dina dilmachusa applies to any government the Jews live under.

    The age 20-60 may have been written in the Torah, but most Jewish kings never followed the Torah!

    #1653806

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course they need to follow halacha.

    #1653810

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ben and Manitou, “fact” 3 is also false. Only the Satmars and NKs said that founding a state was assur because of the non-shevuot (I have already posted about this several times). Many Chareidim actually supported it. For example, the head of the Aguda signed the Declaration of Indepence. SOthers opposed because they thought that the Arabs would overrun it in response. The Americans and British also thought that. They were wrong and BG was right.

    #1653814

    The army doesn’t need the charedim and the army isn’t a kosher place.

    #1653831

    Avi K
    Participant

    The IDF very much needs the Chareidim and it is a holy place. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said that when he felt the need to go to kivrei tzadikkim he goes to the military cemetery on Mt. Herzl.

    #1653835

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Again, this is NOT a halacha army. They may assist with your religious requirements but are not required to. The law is everyone must serve in it. As a chesed, they allowed people who register that they are learning to be exempt. No other country does that. People have 3 options:
    1) join the army
    2) register to say you are learning.
    3) leave the country
    This is not that difficult to understand. If it help most people here, replace Jewish state with Arab state. Faced with those 3 options, what would one do?

    #1653846

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    it is a holy place

    You’re mamash off your rocker

    #1653847

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No other country does that.

    I’m pretty sure the US isn’t drafting yeshiva bochurim.

    #1653864

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Daas: the US doesnt have active draft laws. Durikg vietnam, if you were not in Yeshivish, you were drafted

    #1653876

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daas: the US doesnt have active draft laws.

    Exactly. It’s kind of silly to say how Israel is the only country which makes an exception to the draft when other countries don’t have a draft to begin with.

    Durikg vietnam, if you were not in Yeshivish, you were drafted

    Don’t you think most frum people did whatever they could to avoid going to the army?

    #1653884

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, they’re dafting yeshiva bochurim.

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 283 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending