The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

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  • #1653909

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, the IDF is performing the sacred task of protecting Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael, including Chareidi and leftist ingrates.

    #1653924

    manitou
    Participant

    Daasyochid

    You really are a Daas yochid, whether you like it or not the IDF is doing the biggest Mitzvah saving Yidden in their land, כל המקיים נפש אחת בישראל times 6 million.

    #1653950

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avi and Manitou, I didn’t say a word about whether or not the soldiers are performing a mitzvah. All I said was that the Israeli armed forces is not a “holy place”.

    #1654004

    Joseph
    Participant

    The army of the Zionist Entity will still attempt to draft you even if you leave Israel; so that’s not a solution.

    #1654014

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph….that is not correct. You cannot be forced if you are out of the country. However, you can also never return. The price to pay for shomrai Torah and mitzvos.

    #1654029

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s not an option in any event since a) the Ran paskens every Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel and b) Israelis don’t have the right to move to any other country.

    #1654124

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, the Wikipedia says that holy sites ” are sites that religions considers to be of special religious significance”. The IDF certainly has special religious significance for Jews as it is doing the great mitzva of defending EY and AY. If you want to quibble about it being a place I have no objection to changing my post to “holy organization”.

    #1654206

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    I agree, “the IDF certainly has special religious significance…” Boys and girls serving together in mixed units, even serving together in tanks, tolerating queers in the army, condoning any and all forms of anti-Torah lifestyles, along with (depending on the particular army base) rampant chilul Shabbos. To cite a few “significant” features pertaining to religious observance in the IDF these days. And I already know from previous experience that you will reply with some smart alec comeback that won’t address the points that I’ve raised. Because the concept of a “holy” IDF is an unassailable axiom, regardless of the facts, or of anyone trying to point out the truth.
    I do not advocate absurd and dangerous ideas such as disbanding the IDF, some of my sons do reserve duty in combat units, and I am proud that they are contributing to defend Eretz Yisrael and Jewish lives. But, let’s not lose our minds and pretend that darkness is light, that evil is righteous, or that immorality is “holy.” The Rambam writes about “michemes chova” and also writes about chilul Shabbos and immorality. How to weigh which takes precedence? So, most of the Chareidi tzibur follows the decision of the gedolei harabbanim who feel that all these other mitzvos supercede milchemes mitzva. Others think differently. And I’m certain that the rulings of the rabbis who support IDF service even in these trying situations was checked and re-checked “a million times” — as is required whenever we hear a psak from ANY rabbi — we are more or less at an impasse. We don’t expect you to listen to those whom we consider the manhigei hador; you shouldn’t expect the Chareidi tzibur to change their minds either. Some Chareidim do; yes, and some (former) RZ folks now follow the Chareidi tzibur’s derech. So, there we are. We can agree to disagree or continue wearing out our typing fingers.

    #1654208

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, the Wikipedia says that holy sites ” are sites that religions considers to be of special religious significance”.

    Care to list which other types of places might fall under Wikipedia’s definition and see if you would call all of them “holy places”?

    I don’t need to add anything to what american_yerushalmi wrote to demonstrate that the IDF cannot be considered a “holy place” by any stretch of a Torah observant Jew’s imagination.

    #1654214

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    After reading all of this, I thank Hashem for making me Sephardic.

    #1654218

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Proofs from gedolim = bad.
    Proofs from wikipedia = good.

    #1654220

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph:
    The Ran said Eretz Yisroel, not the State of Israel. Your right will exist when moshiach comes. In addition, if you hold the land is kedusha, it does not stop you from living ayvar hayardan too. The Ran does not say you are limited to the State of Israel borders.
    I do not know where you are living, but you can move to Jordan (still considered Eretz Yisroel, per the Ran). I know, because I have been there. But do keep the torah, you have US, Germany, UK, Spain, Malaysia, South Africa, and many other countries where you will find Israeli’s living. How far are we truly going to sacrafice to be Shmori Torah Umitzvous?

    #1654225

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Ran said Eretz Yisroel, not the State of Israel.

    I don’t understand what you’re saying – most of the land governed by the State of Israel is in fact Eretz Yisroel.

    #1654327

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Ran in Nedarim paskens that every Jew *today* has the absolute unabridged *unconditional* right to live anywhere in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1654371

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Daas & Joseph: The chumish clearly defines the boundaries of ERETZ YISROEL. The boundaries are different than what is currently defined as the State of Israel. Feel free to live in any part of ERETZ YISROEL that does not have the requirement of joining the army. A few places that comes to mind that are considered ERETZ YISROEL that does not have a draft law are: Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, parts of Syria and Lebanon. Those will all meet the Ran’s requirement and allow you to obey the laws.

    No one is forcing you to live in the parts that have draft laws. If you voluntary live there, please follow the law.

    Thanks,
    Isaac

    #1654530

    Joseph
    Participant

    You missed the point for the fifth time:

    The Ran in Nedarim paskens that every Jew *today* has the absolute unabridged *unconditional* right to live anywhere in Eretz Yisroel.

    The Ran in Nedarim further paskens that Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply, at any time, in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1654556

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph- You misunderstood the Ran in Nedarim 28. Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply under a Jewish KING who follow the Torah. None of those conditions apply! There is no king and nor do they follow the Torah. So Bzman Hazeh, Dina D’Malchusa Dina DOES apply in Ertez Yisroel.

    And no where does the Ran talk about a secular government!

    #1654568

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply under a Jewish KING who follow the Torah.

    If you think you need a monarchy, then dina dmalchusa dina shouldn’t apply at all – not in Israel, the USA, Canada, etc.

    #1654569

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, according to the reason the Ran gives, there’s no difference between a secular government or religious one.

    וכתבו בתוספות דדוקא במלכי עובדי כוכבים אמר דדינא דמלכותא דינא מפני שהארץ שלו ויכול לומר להם אם לא תעשו מצותי אגרש אתכם מן הארץ אבל במלכי ישראל לא לפי שא”י כל ישראל שותפין בה

    #1654570

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’d be much better off saying we don’t pasken that way than twisting the Ran.

    #1654578

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Daas: You are twisting the Ran. As you correctly posted: “אבל במלכי ישראל לא לפי שא”י כל ישראל שותפין בה”
    You do not have the right Bzman hazeh! I truly cannot comprehend how that Dina Delmachusa applies in any government where “יכול לומר להם אם לא תעשו מצותי אגרש אתכם מן הארץ”. The fact that someone can be arrested because of avoiding the draft proves you have no tayna!

    Regardless, the Israeli government does not hold of the Ran or ANYONE else for that matter. So there is really no point discussing halacha when the government will not abide by it. So the options are clear,
    1) Hold of the Ran and use that in your court case prior to prison
    2) Move to a country that does not have a draft law
    3) Join the army.

    #1654586

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Daas: And thank you. We do not Pasken like the Ran (I am glad I was also mechven to what the Rashba wrote).
    Per Rav Asher Weiss shlita Dina d’malchusa dina applies also in Eretz Yisrael and which the opinion of the Rambam, and of the majority of the poskim.

    #1654784

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daas: You are twisting the Ran. As you correctly posted: “אבל במלכי ישראל לא לפי שא”י כל ישראל שותפין בה”
    You do not have the right Bzman hazeh! I truly cannot comprehend how that Dina Delmachusa applies in any government where “יכול לומר להם אם לא תעשו מצותי אגרש אתכם מן הארץ”.

    I don’t understand. You don’t agree with the Ran? Therefore I twisted it? I’m lost

    #1654787

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Regardless, the Israeli government does not hold of the Ran or ANYONE else for that matter. So there is really no point discussing halacha when the government will not abide by it.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, I believe the initial discussion of dd”d started in response to this statement of yours:

    If you voluntary live there, please follow the law.

    Nobody thinks the government cares if we pasken like the Ran or the Rambam (or whether the Rambam would apply to a secular government), you addressed the frum people living there.

    #1654824

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    So are you saying frum people do not need to follow the law because there is a Ran who we do not pasken like?

    Still not understanding how frum people can live there and break the law.

    What heter is there? Either follow the law or leave.

    #1654843

    manitou
    Participant

    It is so silly to quibble over if we Pasken like the Ran or the Rambam. The basic concept of Derech eretz kadma ltorah dictates that it doesn’t make any sense to say that someone has to do your basic responsibility because YOU hold that by sitting in a bais medrash it is equivalent. The Torah didn’t come to negate derech eretz it came to add kedusha.

    #1654866

    Joseph
    Participant

    Beis Medrash isn’t equivalent to serving in the army. Beis Medrash is a far higher service to the nation than serving in the army.

    Why aren’t you schlemiels denouncing that Israel exempts government ministers, MKs, outstanding athletes, outstanding dancers, outstanding musicians, etc. from the draft? Whole classes of legal exemptions. Yet you only complain about the exemptions for those that learn Torah.

    #1654870

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So are you saying frum people do not need to follow the law because there is a Ran who we do not pasken like?

    It’s not so poshut that we don’t follow the Ran, or that the Rambam would apply to the secular State of Israel.

    Whether frum people should or shouldn’t follow the law depends on the law. Joining the armed forces is a tremendous
    sakana in ruchniyus, so no, someone shouldn’t go to the army just because it’s a law.

    #1654871

    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    That’s a nice theory but it goes against the Torah and common sense. Limud Torah is very important for everyone but it cannot be in place of national self defense. The Torah was not given in a vacuum, it was given to a people that will live in a land and will need an army, economy, infrastructure etc..

    #1654872

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The basic concept of Derech eretz kadma ltorah dictates that it doesn’t make any sense to say that someone has to do your basic responsibility because YOU hold that by sitting in a bais medrash it is equivalent.

    Actually, Chazal do, and there are enough people in the armed forces without the b’nei Torah, and the army ruins people’s ruchniyus.

    Everyone has a responsibility to the tzibur, true, but arguing that everyone needs to fulfill that obligation in the same way is ludicrous. Should I consider you lacking in basic responsibility if you’re not on Hatzolah, or not a garbage collector, or not an accountant? After all, we need Hatzolah, the garbage needs to be picked up, and taxes filed. If you don’t do all of those, are you a bum?

    And if you don’t think learning Torah is a benefit to the tzibur, you’re not just not agreeing with me or even gedolim such as Rav Shach (etc.), you’re arguing with Chazal.

    #1654876

    manitou
    Participant

    I never said limud Torah is unimportant, I said that it doesn’t come in place of national self defense. As far as saying that not everyone is needed, true but who gets to decide who is exempt and who has to don a uniform?

    #1654877

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Daas: No one is arguing the benefits of Torah. The discussion is can you provide any Rishonim or Achronim that says Torah exempts you from military service?
    You have countless examples of Jews leaving their homes and lands in order not to violate the Torah. If military service is against the Torah, leave or be arrested.
    Actually, it is very pashut we do not follow the Ran. He is a yachud in this matter.

    #1654883

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re: Torah benefitting tzibbur……Chazal….
    Who’s arguing about its benefits??
    Quick Q: Why did Dovid Hamelech, who learned all night b’ruach hakodesh, who’s rebbe was the great Mebiboshes and was surrounded by great Torah gedolim, who had a Sanhedrin, Mishkan, Urim V’tummim, neede Yoav, also a gadol b’ Torah and thousands of chayalim ??? Why didn’t most then just pick up garbage and volunteer at the local fi
    re dept.? Did Chazal disagree?? If yes, please show mareh mekomos.

    #1654892

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    but who gets to decide who is exempt and who has to don a uniform?

    I would certainly hope not a secular government which couldn’t care less if all the chayalim go OTD ch”v, and in many ways encourage it.

    And you certainly don’t get to decide that someone who is learning is therefore lacking derech eretz.

    #1654893

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZG, sorry, I lost you there.

    #1654898

    manitou
    Participant

    DY
    It’s a government elected by the people that came up with the crazy notion of equal sharing of the burden.

    Also I am not deciding if they have derech eretz, their actions speak for themselves. Basic morality and decency that is expected even from the אומות העולם is for sure expected of Frum Yidden.

    #1654903

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s a government elected by the people that came up with the crazy notion of equal sharing of the burden.

    There you go again, saying different means unequal.

    #1654906

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also I am not deciding

    Of course you are.

    #1654905

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not even a democratically elected government has a right to tell young boys to embark on a non Torah path.

    #1654949

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, what non-Torah path? Defending Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael? I personally think that Rav Nachman Kahana’s plan was a good one. The Rabbanut would give exams. The best performers would get a deferment for a few years (I don’t remember exactly how many) to learn, the rest would enlist. After the few years are up the best would be exempted and the rest would become chaplains. During this period those learning would occasionally give shiurim to soldiers. They would also declare that they are learning for the success of the IDF. This would allow the real learners to continue to learn and give those who are not suited an alternative.

    #1654954

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, what non-Torah path? Defending Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael?

    No, not learning, arayos, chillul Shabbos, etc. You know, what happens to many who join the IDF.

    #1654959

    Joseph
    Participant

    manitou: For the sixth time you’ve purposely skipped answering the point made.

    Why aren’t you denouncing that Israel exempts from army service government ministers, MKs, outstanding athletes, outstanding dancers, outstanding musicians, etc. from the draft? Whole classes of legal exemptions are granted and yet you only complain about the exemptions for those that learn Torah.

    First stop all other exemptions. Such as of the dancers, musicians, athletes, MKs and government ministers. Then come back and we’ll talk about dropping exemptions for those who learn Torah.

    Why are dancers, musicians, athletes, MKs and government ministers exempt from the draft? Doesn’t the IDF need them???

    Avi: The Limud Torah of someone breaking their teeth over a gemora and taking a month to finish a daf due to his inability to learn more is just as valuable to Hashem and Klal Yisroel as someone who finishes Shas every month. One isn’t better than the other or doing a more valuable service.

    #1654968

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re: I lost you
    I was pointing out that an army is not against the Torah at all. That when even during a time when we had Torah, learning ,and hashroat Shechina, General Yoav went to battle even with approval from Urim V’tummim. Debate about level of frumkeit in IDF is a separate issue…… That learning in yeshiva as a stand-alone excuse for exemption because it benefits & protects , has no precedent in our history from Yehoshua on down..

    #1654969

    ZionGate
    Participant

    … To clarify… Though Chazal say that Yoav needed Dovid’s Torah, they immediately say that Dovid needed Yoav’s army in the very same memreh. IOW… they’re equal in the eyes of Hashem. I never heard anyone argue that there should be no learning at all. People with good & fair intentions should be able to sit down together and figure it out, esoecially when millions of wolves surround our little Holy land with evil intentions.It’s called , sharing the burden.

    #1654976

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Debate about level of frumkeit in IDF is a separate issue……

    You can’t separate it at all.

    Let’s see an army run completely al pi Torah and then we can talk.

    Meanwhile, it’s a spiritual minefield with many casualties.

    sharing the burden.

    That goes both ways…. When the spiritual burden falls on everyone, and everyone keeps the Torah and learns, we can talk about sharing the burden of defense.

    You simply can’t argue from an era where so many important factors were so different and say we should do what they did.

    Maybe we should use spears instead of jet fighters?

    #1654979

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re:Spiritual minefield
    Depends for whom.. I have family in IDF, sons of friends, sons of aquaintances. It’s time to stop throwing blanket statement around like that which contain a good potion of sheker.

    Re: when everyone keeps the Torah..
    If you’re off today, spend a couple of hours with a Nach and learn a bit about what went on there.
    Different eras: Torah doesn’t object to an army in any era.
    Re: spears vs. jet fighters… lol, I needed that.. Didn’t have my 2nd cup of coffee yet.

    #1654982

    ZionGate
    Participant

    So let’s cut to the quick.
    1…A Jewish State isn’t allowed at all.
    2…. Even if yes, IDF isn’t kosher..
    3…. Even if kosher, Torah learning protects and no need to join anyway…. Or maybe we can talk about it.
    4…. Questionable dinah d’malchusa, and we need to me’ayin if even obeying traffic laws, piling sewage on Rechov Yaffo paying taxes, etc..
    5…..Frum MKs, mayors, etc.. are doing the bidding of the Zionists..
    6… It’s not safe there… Come to Uncle Sam’s villla.
    So what’s the point of discussion altogether?
    Folks, it doesn’t matter… EY is a growing miracle, largest Torah center in the world… Ki Mitziyon Teitzei Torah, from nowhwre else, even in our era…. Especially in our era..
    Gra,Baal Shem, Chofetz Chaim all wanted to make Aliya…
    “Is it not possible to see the hand of Divine Providence in all this?”.. whoever has opportunity but does not move to EY, will have to answer before G-D… Harav Sonnenfeld, already not a Zionist.
    That’s it folks… Let’r rip…
    Now let me munch on my cheese danish…

    #1654981

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Regarding sharing the burden.
    1. Do you mean like communism? Thats what share the burden means. Pirkei avos already said, that what’s mine is yours and what yours is mine, is a bad middah.

    2. Kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh does not mean share the burden. It means we need to make sure we all keep the mitzvos. Do you believe in such a concept? It is much more important for us to bring jews to keeping the Torah rather than put them in a situation where, like I said, the majority go off the derech. As i have mentioned, of all my friends that have been in the army, are no longer frum. Most of them are partiers and go to clubs and raves every night. Im talking about kids who grew up in monsey.

    3. The gemara says לפום גמלא שיחנא, which means that according to the camel, the burden. A person is not expected to do things that is too much for them. Share the burden as of yet does not have a makor in Torah, except for a physical package werighing down an animal.

    #1654999

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Joseph: can you please provide a source that musicians, politicians etc at exempt? You keep on saying that and I cannot find a source.

    And no one is saying give up Torah. You can still go to a hesder yeshivish.

    #1655015

    manitou
    Participant

    Takes3…
    Sharing the burden is not communism, it’s common sense that Is even expected from a goy and the Torah never came to take away common sense. Derech eretz kadma…

    I love the bait and switch, in one argument you say that learning is in place of army and the next argument is that it’s not for a Frum person because of the secular environment. Which one is it? If we want to be serious about fixing the problem then we have to identify what it is.

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