The name Shira – A Problem?

Home Forums Bais Medrash The name Shira – A Problem?

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 217 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1160721

    iyhbyu
    Member

    A posek who regularly consults with R’ Elyashiv told me when I told him I heard R’ Elyashiv say something-

    “Half the things that R’ Elyashiv said… he never said.”

    I’m assuming the same would be true for R’ Chaim. I really find this VERY hard to believe and I’d just like to echo the need to speak to your Rav before doing anything at all.

    BTW in regards to mekuballim, be very careful that you are dealing with someone who is legit. There are a lot of “mekuballim” who are dabbling in Kochos hatumah. My rosh yeshiva told me that any mekubal should be able to explain to you any tosfos in shas on the spot because if you really know kaballah you have to know kol hatorah kula. See faith and folly by R’ Yaakov Hillel.

    #1160722

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Jl. I think yiu missed the point. Yehudah, dan, binyamin, all “biblical” names came from the inspiration of the parentsan EG, hapam odeh es hashem. Why is eliana worse? Would you prefer one used a biblical name such as mupim, chupim, eri? Wait, those also were made up names based on a meaning special to the parent.

    (Pardon the play on words) Ikkar chaser min hasefer.

    #1160723

    yunger mann
    Member

    Is every one missing that I quoted a sefer about this? which has the haskama of many poskim birosham Rav Ovadia Yosef shlit”a.

    I find it hard to believe too many posskim would paskin such a shaila if they heard Reb Chaim shlit”a has a contrary opinion.

    #1160724

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I happen to own a sefer called “V’korey Shmoi B’yisroel” where its brought down from Reb Chaim shlit”a that all modern names (and Shira was one of them), are not names at all and that any one with those names needs to ad a name and be called by the new one only.

    Okay, so what qualifies as a “modern” name? How do you (or, perhaps, more importantly, how does R. Chaim) define that?

    The Wolf

    #1160725

    yunger mann: “which has the haskama of many poskim birosham Rav Ovadia Yosef shlit”a”

    A haskoma on the whole sefer or a michtav brocha that the auther should be able to learn Torah????

    Rav Chaim Kanyevskiy’s son is busy putting out a sefer of his own since his father’s over 70,000 (yes over seventy thousand) teshuvos are being misrepresented. Rav Chaim K also insists that no one should pasken from his teshuvos.

    #1160726

    veteran
    Member

    Why are people extrapolating? In this thread a number of comments were first or second hand accounts of R’ Chaim objecting to the name Shira. Not any other name. I think it is reasonable to conclude that he objects to this name only, and not try to extend this to other names that he has not objected to based on a (even a) logical connection that he has not ever said (to the best of anyone’s knowledge).

    Unless someone has heard R’ Chaim object to other names- anyone?

    #1160727

    Derech Sichah, which is a more accurate book/sefer which quotes Rav Chaim K, quots Rav Chaim as taking issue with the name Matan. He says matan who is mention in Tnach was an evil person. He is quoted as having told people to change their name to Natan (Nossen).

    This, well-known sefer makes no mention of your new claim. What does this suggest?

    #1160728
    #1160729

    yunger mann
    Member

    Most of the names are brought down in the sefer.

    The mechaber says he went through many names with Reb Chaim shlit”a. that Reb Chaim shlit”a said where no good and go in the category with Shira of modern names.

    I wish I could provide more info about the sefer but I think I left it by my parents (I brought it there to show my brother when he was making a briss).

    Every name besides some Yiddish ones are clearly recorded in this sefer and the mekoross for them are there as well.

    If any one is interested in buying this sefer, the sefer is sold in all seforim stores.

    #1160730

    yunger mann
    Member

    #1160731

    yunger mann: You very nicely skirted the question.

    Is it an H A S K O M A, or a personal brocha??

    #1160732

    yunger mann
    Member

    Its a haskama. Sorry i was trying to answer you. Perhaps i did’nt understand the question the first time.

    #1160733

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I actually know someone who got a new name because his name was not a real name.

    I don’t get that; can’t you make up a name?

    #1160734

    iyhbyu
    Member

    @yunger mann-

    I tried to find this so-called “sefer” on the websites of zundel berman, eichlers, and mannys and nothing came up. I thought

    “the sefer is sold in all seforim stores.”?

    Additionally-” Not every one who sounds a little frum is joseph.”

    How are you sounding more “frum” than anyone else? You are implicitly telling people not to ask poskim. If you have a Rav who you trust (and everyone should), than if he doesn’t know the answer, he will tell you.

    Nobody is questioning R’ Chaim-They are questioning you and whether R’ Chaim said that.

    What you are saying makes no sense. Frum Yidden have been creating names since names have existed. What shtus to say that Shira is not a name. Is Alexander a name? Even nowadays, parents are given syata dishmaya to name their children, and if they chose Shira-than that is a beautiful name for them.

    It’s one thing if you are trying to have a little fun, but Shira is a popular name, and you are probably causing distress to people all over. You’re playing with fire.

    #1160736

    yunger mann
    Member

    iybuhu-I bought the sefer in Torah Tresures in Lakewood. I thought it would be every where perhaps im mistaking.

    I think every one SHOULD ask their Rav. i never said not to.

    As for the fire many people have heard this. Read the posts.

    Gutt Shabbos

    #1160737

    I will iy”h look for this sefer tomorrow. Both because the topic interests me and because it can be nogeyah l’maisah.

    I think yunger mann made an important point. The fact is that if he is indeed quoting from a sefer of someone who researched these inyonim and spoke at length with Rav Chaim about, there is little anyone can argue about. Who here has spent time learning these inyonim? How can anyone here argue without having spent time learning about these things? Just because it doesn’t sit well with you doesn’t make it wrong. First learn, ask shailos and then come back and comment with proof.

    I understand that there is some chochma to sheimos. When I need a name I call up a rav who is known to be aboki in these things and go over them with him. Although he doesn’t discuss it with me I hear him under his breath making some type of cheshbonos before he answers me. So even though a person is given some form of ruach hakodesh when choosing a name it is likely that this ruach hoakodesh is no way comparable to the nevuah that our avos and imahos had when making up names for their own children.

    #1160738

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Thanks to whomever it was who recommended the sefer. I purchased it erev Shabbos and spend Shabbos going through it.

    Here are a couple of points which come from the sefer, I am bringing them due to previous comments.

    At the end of the sefer there is a list of 196 names which R’ Chaim Kanievsky says one should not give. YET IT SAYS THE OTHER POSKIM DO NOT AGREE.

    Some of the names listed in the 196 include: Shira, Yoram, Tal, Gavriella, Daniella, Shlomit, Matan, Natali, Na’ama, Hadar, Danna.

    After the list (which is a combination of modern names, as well as names from Tanach which one should not use). It says that the rest of the poskim in our dor say that any modern names which have “mashmaos tovos”, there is no inyan NOT to use them. In fact, R’ Chaim is makpid that one use Tanach Names.

    On page 171 of the sefer, it quotes R’ Eliyashiv Shlit”a as saying that there is NO PROBLEM with “new names” since such was also the minhag in Europe. It also quotes R’ S.Z. Aurbach as saying “We have enough names, why do you need to use a new one”

    The Chazon Ish is quoted as saying that one should not give the womens names from “doros kadmonim” (earlier generations) e.g. Basha, Breindel, Golda etc. so not to embarrass their child. Should one feel compelled to give the name, one should add the hebrew equivalent, giving the name “Faige Tzippora” or “Golda Zahava” and should only call the child by the Hebrew equivalent.

    The reason why R’ Chaim Kanievsky is so makpid on “new names” is because the Arizal writes that from the zman of Bais Sheini, there is no such thing as a “new nishama”, rather we are all gilgulim. And since the name is a connection to the nishama, we should stick to old names.

    The name Chaim is an “old name” and referenced to in the Seder HaDoros and Shem HaGedolim (name of a Gadol).

    Animal Names: Minhag is to name “Chayos” which the shvatim were compared to. We don’t name after “b’haimos” even kosher ones”.

    It is acceptable to name after flowers or other things which grow.

    Food for Thought: It is nearly impossible to satisfy EVERY shitta when choosing a name. The Avnei Nezer writes that one should not use the name “Moshe”, many argue that his logic leaves no name left to use. The Arizal is quotes as saying that women should be given a name with the letter HEY. That removes Rachel, Tamar, Avigail and other Tanach names from the list.

    Those who choose to follow R’ Chaim in this Inyan, Ashreicha. However, please dont bash those who choose to follow R’ Eliashiv who is in obvious disagreement. The sefer quotes both so that we can learn the Inyan. For psak ask da’as torah. They might pasken like R’ Chaim, or they might pasken like R’ Eliashav. Ailu V’Eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim.

    #1160739

    fabie
    Member

    I have heard this as well. A relative of ours had the name “Shlomit”, which she added a new name “Shulamit”. To the best of my knowledge Rav Shach ZT”L held differently though. I had a sheilah with a bas bayit of ours by the name of Nogah, which she thought it was a bad klipa, which it actually isn”t. I told her to ask Rav Shroya Debltsky, who told her to keep her name.

    #1160740

    oomis
    Participant

    Sorry, but if Shira is not a name, neither is Faigie, Mendel, Hershel, Alexander, and yes, ANY Jewish name, because ALL the names we originally find in the Torah were made up names, and all the names in Yiddish given in the Alter Heim were taken from German.

    #1160741

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    If you look in SHulchan Oruch, EH Hilchos Gittin, the Beis Shmuel brings a long list of names. Among them is the name Menucha and Simcha for women. How are these different then Shira?

    He also has a list of Clalim. The very first one is that we do not change any name, evenm if it has a meaning which is a rayusa (negative connotation) or is the name of non-Jews.

    Among the list of names is one which he says has no meaning whatsoever (some badly corrupted word), (I think in the letter Mem list), but is still a valid name, and should be left as is.

    #1160742

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    midwesterner: That was my point. I was being sarcastic.

    #1160743

    yunger mann
    Member

    jaymat- thank you. My point all along was just to say what Reb Caim shlit”a holds, Not what you should do. All i said was ask your Rav.

    #1160744

    mw13
    Participant

    JayMatt19:

    “The reason why R’ Chaim Kanievsky is so makpid on “new names” is because the Arizal writes that from the zman of Bais Sheini, there is no such thing as a “new nishama”, rather we are all gilgulim. And since the name is a connection to the nishama, we should stick to old names.”

    Thank you for explaining this shita of R’ Chaim. It’s nice to finally have some hard facts here.

    #1160745

    JayMatt19: Thank you.

    #1160746

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Animal Names: Minhag is to name “Chayos” which the shvatim were compared to. We don’t name after “b’haimos” even kosher ones”.

    Wrong. What about Shepsel for one.

    Also, there were g’dolim such as Rav Ruderman who had einicklech with the name Shira. And what about the custom of naming females from words in p’sukim of Shir Hashirim?

    #1160747

    digibochur
    Member

    Can one name a child “Rashi”???

    Does anyone remember Rashi Shapiro from the LP album Rashi and the Rishonim??

    Cute name.

    #1160748

    oomis
    Participant

    Shlumiel (bem Tzurishakai) was also a bibilical name. Now I know a lot of guys whom I have thought were Shlumiels, but I don’t know of any who are actually thus named.

    #1160750

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Animal Names: Minhag is to name “Chayos” which the shvatim were compared to. We don’t name after “b’haimos” even kosher ones”.

    Which shevet was compared to a bear?

    The Wolf

    #1160751

    yunger mann:

    The name Shira – A Problem?

    “I find it hard to believe too many posskim would paskin such a shaila if they heard Reb Chaim shlit”a has a contrary opinion.”

    The name Shira – A Problem?

    Tonight: “My point all along was just to say what Reb Caim shlit”a holds, Not what you should do. All i said was ask your Rav.”

    #1160753

    “Also my wife knows someone named Shira who Reb Chaim shlit”a told to add or change (im no sure which) their name. And he told them to make a kiddush when they do so.”

    Reb Chaim K never made a kiddush for any of daughters. Neither did the Steipler. I find it hard to believe.

    JayMatt19: Does the sefer discuss changing names once a name been given?

    #1160754

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    What about those who don’t believe in gilgulim?

    And what about names like Maimon who were after the second Bais Hamikdash, or Rav Hai Gaon, or others?

    #1160755

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    No one has even mentioned the dozens-maybe hundreds- of aramaic names that the Amoraim had. This was AFTER the bayis sheni. How did they come to make up these names? (also the geonim’s names) If you want to follow this shittah , do so but do not burden other people with the false assumption that certain names cannot be given. Wolf- your question (about a bear)totally wipes that reason away.

    #1160756

    iyhbyu
    Member

    @yunger mann-

    “there are a select few poskim that are mumchim in names not every Rav is a mumcha in this miktzoa.

    I find it hard to believe too many posskim would paskin such a shaila if they heard Reb Chaim shlit”a has a contrary opinion.”

    Don’t say this if you actually want people to ask their Rav.

    #1160757

    mw13
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid and rabbiofberlin:

    I think it’s safe to assume that R’ Chaim thought of that question, and has a more than competent answer. They say he’s fairly bright.

    #1160758

    always here
    Participant

    digibochur~ I know a woman named Rashi. for real.

    #1160759

    iyhbyu
    Member

    @mw13-

    I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise, They are doubting whether R’ Chaim said such a thing at all. and one is still allowed to wonder what the reason behind a psak is. (while following a competent Rav)

    #1160760

    yunger mann:

    “I find it hard to believe too many posskim woul

    d paskin such a shaila if they heard Reb Chaim shlit”a has a contrary opinion.”

    Tonight: “My point all along was just to say what Reb Caim shlit”a holds, Not what you should do. All i said was ask your Rav.”

    You quoted the sefer without mentioning that Rav Chaim’s father-in-law paskens otherwise. Rav Chaim says not to pasken based upon what he says. If your competent to pasken shailos, you may use what he says to help you conclude. Otherwise you shall ask a Rov who can pasken shailos. Thats what Reb Chaim writes in all the halocha seforim he wrote. This certainly holds true about a ssfer he did NOT write.

    #1160761

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mw13-unless R”Chaim actually wrote “mitaam hakomus etzli”-for a very reason that I want to hide, there is no justification not to answer any of the questions posed by the posters- and very simple ones at that. Do you think he would ignore any real question on a sugay or a halachic question and not address it? Of course not.

    #1160762

    yunger mann
    Member

    Truth teller- You where medayik like a lamdin, now think like a lamdin. I was not sosser my self. I merely told you what your Rav would probably say if you told him what Reb Chaim shlit”a says.

    As for the story perhaps it was told over to me wrong.

    As far as:

    #1160763

    yunger mann
    Member

    iyhbyu- Everyone should do what they please. I’m not here to give hadracha. Were chatting and i’m giving my opinion just like every one else.

    #1160764

    Sounds like you are telling people not to follow their Rov.

    “As for the story perhaps it was told over to me wrong.”

    Or it’s all a bubba maaseh. Eidus shebotloh miktzoso, botlo kuloh.

    Wrong. Either is not fine. If you are not competent in paskening shailos, Rav Chaim does not want you to conclude based upon his psak (alone).

    Oh, and thanks for the compliment . Coming from you, its highly appreciated.

    #1160767

    yunger mann
    Member

    Ok my friend take a chill.

    Here is another complement: You sound like a person who stands up for emess

    #1160768

    yunger mann
    Member

    Sender- See my above post on that question.

    #1160770

    yunger mann
    Member

    Oh gosh im not that bad and I don’t have much knowledge of obscure sefarim I bought that sefer when I had a Shaila someone suggested it

    #1160771

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Cherrybim: I thought Shpesel was just a nickname

    Wolf: You are correct. I did not transmit that paragraph correctly.

    Originally, the minhag was to name the shevet name with its animal. And YES, there were names Dan Nachash and Yissachar Chamor. Later the minhag changed to drop the shevet from the animal. i.e. the name Aryeh given by itself (Kesser Dovid).

    The Chida is quoted in this sefer as saying that in ?????? (Italy?) the minhag was to give boys animal names, cause they had a kaballa that this saved them from ?????? . And therefore names were given like Zvi, Ayal, Zev etc.

    The Keser Dovid by the way, vetos the names Nachash and Chamor.

    As for the question about Shinui HaShem, that is an entire Perek on its own. If there is a specific question perhaps I will see what I can do, but a general “What about Shinui Hashem?” is a bit too much.

    FYI R’ Chaim Kanievsky does state that when changing the name, one should use the closest equivalent possibly. E.g. if a Ba’al Teshuva says his name is Victor, he should be called Avigdor (and Ofir should be Efraim).

    One should never change a name (e.g. Choleh), rather one should add a name.

    The new name is always in front of the old name. (i.e. Rina becomes Chaya Rina and not Rina Chaya)

    If one was given the name of a Rasha at the naming (e.g. Nimrod, Amalek, Jezebel), we change the name and do not add a name.

    The minhag is to add one of the following names to a sick male: Chaim, Shalom, Refoel, Ezriel, Yerachmiel, Yechezkel, or Chizkiahu for a segulah for a refuah sheleima.

    The minhag is to add one of the following names for a sick female: Chaya, Chana, Sarah or Yocheved. We do NOT add Rachel, Bas Sheva, Tamar or Leah (Chida)

    A Shinui Hashem is only done for a Choleh, not for someone who has R”L gone off the derech. (R’ Chaim Kanievsky)

    #1160772

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    yunger mann: Make sure you read the haskamos and not just look at the names.

    Often the letter says that they haven’t read the book.

    Sometimes the haskama is for a different sefer (e.g. The English Version of the Sefer Ma’alos Hatorah printed haskamos for the Hebrew Version written over 100 years ago!).

    And every now and then you even get a haskama which says that the contents of the book is not Torah (still amazed the Mechaber has the chutzpa to print the haskama in his book when it says that)

    #1160773

    always here
    Participant

    “The new name is always in front of the old name. (i.e. Rina becomes Chaya Rina and not Rina Chaya)”

    JayMatt19~ when I received an added name (as mentioned in a previous post above… not being because I was sick, B’H) it was added after my birth name.

    and come to think of it: my mother-in-law, A’H, received an additional name AFTER her first two given names.

    #1160774

    yeshivaguy1
    Member

    I noticed some posters assuming that just because it is a sefer it is true and “you can’t argue on a sefer” Anyone can print a sefer; just because it has a binding a nice cover doesn’t make it true. If you really think so read Aim Habonim Smaicha. It is very well researched and very backed up from the the torah, poskim etc. Yet I’m sure you would find a rationale to disagree with every word written in it.

    #1160775

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Oomis. I assume that the term Shlumiel comes from the fact that the Nassi with that name acted like a Shlimiel at the end of his life. See the end of Parshas Balak.

    What does R’ Chaim say about someone named Joseph using multiple names?

    #1160776

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Can one name a child “Rashi”???

    Growing up I knew someone who was named Rashi. I believe he now has smicha as is living somewhere in the states.

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 217 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending