The name Shira – A Problem?

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  • #1160777

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What does R’ Chaim say about someone named Joseph using multiple names?

    That’s it! Joseph was told by R’ Chaim to change his name. He went to 28 different rabbonim to ask which name he should adopt, and this is the result! YW-Moderator 42, you’re a genius! 🙂

    #1160778

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Regarding everything you hear someone say in the name of a gadol.

    I know someone who sent the following shayla to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita (I saw the shayla written and put into the envelope). I heard bsheim your father z’l that there is an inyan to make a kiddush for a girl, true? The response lo hadam ati saw it – unless there is an elaborate hoax going on somewhere regarding answering shaaylos sent to R’ Chaim). If something sounds fishy, your not an apikores for questioning it.

    #1160779

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    lo hadam ati saw it

    ?

    #1160780

    oomis
    Participant

    Thanks, Mod 42 for the info on Shlumiel. I never thought of it that way before.

    “Here is the big question. Will G-d be angry at someone who is named Shira or names their child Shira?”

    Here is a bigger question – will G-d be angry at someone for saying such a thing, and then at us for posting it? EVERY name since time began is made up from SOMETHING. We believe that Hashem gave the Avos and Emahos Ruach HaKodesh in naming their children, and in fact we see that the names given to the shevatim were all based in something that occurred to the Emahos at that moment. “Re-u-bein,” “Ben -Oni” (changed to Bin Yimini), Dina’s name was given to her because the “din” came down for her to be a girl, when she was supposed to originally be a boy.

    If any Rov actually were to make the statement attributed to R’Chaim, then it would seem to me that it would have to apply equally across the board to EVERY single non-Torah name given, and most especially, as was mentioned by several of us posters, to any non-Hebrew name, because not one of them is a real Jewish name. Shprintze, for example, which is Yiddish, doesn’t even ORIGINATE from Yiddish. It comes from Esperanza which means hope in Spanish. I didn’t know about the Bunim (bonhomme), and that was interesting. But the point is, NO ONE should change their given names. Names are added when chalilah one is deathly ill, but that’s it. The only exception is when one is misgayeir, or if one was never given a Jewish name to begin with. Then a Rov should advise them on what is proper.

    #1160781

    oomis
    Participant

    Can one name a child rashi”?

    I knew a GIRLS who was called Rashi, her Jewish name was probably Rasha, and I know other ladies by that name, but I was always bothered that someone would give the name Rasha to a child. it would be better to call them Tova.

    #1160782

    Huvi
    Member

    my cousin was in her late 30’s, single, and no job.

    Rav Chaim told her to change her name to Noa, that year she got married and found a job. You can’t go wrong with what Rav Chaim says!!

    #1160783

    mw13
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin:

    “there is no justification not to answer any of the questions posed by the posters- and very simple ones at that.”

    The point of my previous comment was that although I do not know the answer to your question, I am confident R’ Chaim does.

    #1160784

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Lo hadam. The rest was the result of fat finger syndrome and not holding shift key for ().

    #1160785

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mw13-see my comment about secret reasons. There are two ways in psak- you have to justify what you are saying (whether you are the Nodah bejehuda or a lonely rov) or you must say that there is a special reason but you cannot disclose the source. In our case, neither of these things happened (unless you accept the point of gilgulim). Therefore, many posters are very skeptical about this whole idea of “old names”.

    btw- someone said that “chaim’ is an old name based on the seder hadoros. How far back do we find this name? Middle Ages? certainly not earlier.

    yeshivaguy1- I am at loss to understand your point about “aim habonim semaicha”. There are two views about Eretz Yisroel-the satmarer rebbe’s version and Rav Teichtal’s version (the author). I suscribe to Rav Teichtal and Rav kook’s version (yes- I am a black hatter). You may suscribe to the Satmarer rebbe’s version. History will sort this one out. The sefer about names may legitimately quote certain Poskim. the question remains- how do you explain the hundreds-maybe thousands- of names that were invented in the last two thousand years?

    #1160786

    observanteen
    Member

    cherrybim: Shepsel is a nickname for shabsi, a name originally given to a boy born on Shabbos. Nothing to do with sheep.

    Wolf: The name Ber, as in Yissochor Ber, has nothing to do with a bear. It’s in honor of the ?????? which reuven picked for his mother so she should conceive and she gave birth to Yissachar. In German-Yiddish this plant was called “berelach”, probably related to berries. Eventually Ber was separated from Yissochor (perhaps when there was a living grandparent named Yissochor). Its original meaning long forgotten, Dov was added to make it into a Hebrew name, so it would be proper for aliyah l’torah.

    #1160787

    cherrybim
    Participant

    What about a boy named Sue?

    #1160788

    deiyezooger
    Member

    if there is such a name for a boy?

    #1160789

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: The name Ber, as in Yissochor Ber

    Actually, I wasn’t referring to the Yiddish name “Ber.” I was referring to the Hebrew name “Dov” which, most often, appears without the Yiddish “Ber.”

    The Wolf

    #1160790

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    OK. So Leib doesn’t come from lion, or Arye. Really, it means, life, or Chaim. We all (besides me, of course) forgot about that and started associating it with lion. Now, what about Hersh?

    By the way, I’m not trying to make fun of what you wrote, but at the same time, I’m not trying not to, either. It does sound funny.

    #1160791

    cherrybim
    Participant

    deiyezooger – Of course, according to Johnny.

    #1160792

    yeshivaguy1
    Member

    I was just trying to point out that just because it is a sefer doesn’t make it true. I chose a sefer that he would certainly disagree with (after just hearing a summary) to prove my point that he doesn’t necessarily agree with everything that is written in a sefer.

    #1160793

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Can you name a boy Sue?

    -Sure, he can be an ambulance chasing attorney.

    I believe I saw a question about the name Chaim before. The seder Hadoros, in the back of the 1st volume, has an index of names. It lists Chaim quite often, and there are numerous persons listed in Gemaras with the name Chaim. (Rabbainu Chaim Cohen in Brachos, Kiddushin, Yoma and Bechoros and R’ Chaim B. Mordechai in Zevachim to name a few).

    Keep in mind that not every Tanach name is in Tanach. Adina was the mother or Rochel and Leah (and wife of Lavan). Idit, according to some (Anat according to others) was the wife of Lot. Tov is another name for Moshe. I get the impression from the Sefer that these are still considered “Tanach Names” despite their absence from the Tanach.

    #1160794

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Regarding what somebody said that not all Rabbonim are experts in the miktzoa of the halachos of names, that is precisely the point. There really aren’t any halachos. These are all minhagim. Even the idea of not marrying someone with the name of one’s parent as far as I know comes from the sefer of Rebbe Yehudah Hachasid which is not binding. (Reasons have been suggested that it would not be kibud av vaem to constantly call someone by his parent’s first name, since one is not supposed to address a parent directly by his name).

    As far as the suggested reason of gilgulim goes that we should not make up new names, here is a question: If you believe in the gilgulistic explanation of Hu Pinchas, Hu Eliyahu, Hu Charvona, or that Hasach is Daniel, etc., then clearly we see that one can be a gilgul of another and yet have a different name each time.

    So the bottom line is that if one wants to believe in some obscure, possibly kabbalisticly based novel sevara which only a single gadol holds from, while ruva druva do not, and have never even heard of this entire idea to begin with, and which was never practiced previously in any generation, as we have shown that tons of names from all different languages have been used throughout the doros, and even some which have no meaning or derivation in any language whatsoever, as I quoted from the Bais Shmuel on Shulchan Oruch, then one should feel free to do so. However, to make anybody feel bad about it, and moreover to tell somebody to change his name because of this is simply astonishing, to say the least. The minhag since the beginning of time is that parents picked a name after a relative or to express their emotions or hopes for the child. This is how the Avos did it, (note that Rochel named Binyomin, Ben Oni, since she was in her last minutes of life, a very sad name remiscent of aninus (aveilus, rachmana litzlan). I think the Artscroll Bris Milah book says that Hashem guides parents of each child to pick out the right name. There is no reason to believe that Hashem has suddenly stopped helping parents.

    #1160795

    shlishi
    Member

    so you’re saying reb chaim is wrong??????

    #1160796

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I am saying he is a daas yochid. We don’t even pasken like the Vilna Gaon himself (who used 2 matzos on Pesach).

    #1160797

    Ah yes. Rav Chaim can’t argue on b’feirush an Artscroll.

    Also what does “If you believe in the gilgulistic explanation of Hu Pinchas, Hu Eliyahu, Hu Charvona, or that Hasach is Daniel, etc.” mean?

    “if one wants to believe in some obscure, possibly kabbalisticly based novel sevara which … [Rav Chaim Kanievsky] holds from,” Are you sure “believe” is the word you meant here?

    Now I don’t have a problem with someone explaining that they prefer to hold like Rav Elyashiv but I notice a lot of people appearing to argue on Rav Chaim with their own svoros. If you want to say he never said it and that this sefer is lying, that’s fine. If you know as a fact that Rav Chaim clearly held that Shira was a fine beautiful name for a Jewish girl, that’s fine too. But please, we aren’t talking about little people here. Just because you don’t understand WHY he said it, doesn’t make it not true. In all likelihood, he is probably intimately familiar with a number of sources that the rest of us aren’t.

    #1160798

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Derech Hamelech, there are many Rishonim who don’t hold of gilgulim, such as the Rambam, and who would interpret the gemara of Hu Pinchas differently. That is why I wrote “If you believe”.

    Second, Artscroll must have quoted a source from a sefer.

    Third, we are allowed to fight out sevaros even with the gedolei hador. See Igros Moshe OC 109 where he says that not only is one allowed to argue with him in psak, but he is MECHUYAV to do so, if he learns a sugya differently.

    I and others brought a ton of names which are mentioned in the Nosei Keilim on Shulchan Oruch, which do not seem to fit with the sevara of Reb Chaim. If Reb Chaim is one’s Rebbe, then he should definitely follow and be meyaetz with him. However, the millions of simple Jews who named their children differently have done no wrong.

    #1160799

    oomis
    Participant

    OK. So Leib doesn’t come from lion, or Arye. Really, it means, life, or Chaim. We all (besides me, of course) forgot about that and started associating it with lion. Now, what about Hersh? “

    The reason Leib (meaning heart) is associated with an Aryeh, is that the lion is considered to be the bravest animal> Ever hear the expression “the heart of a lion?” It also therefore might be associated with anyone named Yehudah, as the Aryeh was the symbol for Yehudah (gur aryeh).

    #1160800

    always here
    Participant

    my paternal grandfather, A’H, was named Hirsh. as far as I know, no one in my family was ever named for him. my husband kept saying: ‘his name must be Tzvi Hirsh’. the matzeiva says Hirsh. he still doesn’t have anyone named after him 🙁

    so what’s the story with ‘Hirsh’?

    #1160801

    First. Would you please offer another Rishon besides the Rambam? Not that I disagree with you per se, but even the Rambam was cholek on a lot of his shitos regarding these inyonim. Regardless, I think you meant to say “hold like” not “believe” since even the divrei chol of the Rishonim are Torah.

    Second. “Artscroll must have quoted from a sefer” So it is easy to believe that Artscroll got it from somewhere but not easy to believe that this sefer got it from Rav Chaim?

    Third. “but he is MECHUYAV to do so, <stong>if he learns a sugya differently.” Did you do that?

    Lastly. While I strongly suspect that Rav Chaim has opened a SA a few times over his life this is not my problem. My problem is for those that want to bring a proof from their own svoros like “that can’t be true” or the like.

    #1160802

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oomis,

    For my part, I was kidding, and I think that was quite clear. Leib is Yiddish for lion. Hirsh is Yiddish for deer. Lev is Hebrew for heart, but just because Richard was dubbed, The Lion Hearted, I don’t think that is a good enough reason to call a lion, a heart. The Maharal’s name was Yehuda and was commonly called, Reb Leib, in his day.

    There are people who have the Hebrew version and are nicknamed the Yiddish, and there are those who are named only the Yiddish name. You can have a brother named Arye while you are named Leibel. So, always, I don’t know why you don’t just take the word of the Matzeva and give the name Hirsh.

    Once we’re on the topic, where does the name Faivel come from?

    #1160803

    I don’t know if it even matters anymore but the original story is about someone local (to me) and DID happen. As far as the rest, everyone is having a discussion and nobody grabbed the gavel and declared themselves ruler. So if someone throws in their opinion and you disagree, feel free to disagree. But there is no need to knock people down or accuse them of speaking out of turn. Each person is bringing in their say as an anonymous poster and comments should be respected (and accepted) as such. And by the way – at least 3 of my family members have names that would be problematic to R’ Chaim according to this thread so I plan on contacting my Rav and asking him for his psak.

    #1160804

    always here
    Participant

    HaLeiVi is not Joseph 😉 — I’ve had all my children already. considering I know that my married children are not so crazy about some of the names of our more recently deceased loved ones, I figure I’ll throw the suggestion out there to them… but they probably won’t care for it so much either. already, one grandson is named for R’Avigdor Miller, ZT’L.

    my husband really gives our children a hard time for not naming who HE wants named after… I’m just sayin’

    #1160805

    observanteen
    Member

    Haleivi:

    Faivel is from Fabian, which means Light (I think in Latin). That’s why it goes with Shraga, which also means Light.

    Wolf:

    Dov is unique in being the name of a non-kosher animal not mentioned with the shvotim. Its evolution is as I explained. (sorry, I don’t remember the source.) In fact the vodislaver rav was careful to say at the bris of his son: ????? ??? ??? ???.

    AH:

    Hirsh, Hersh, Hirtz or Hertz (deer in German) originally go with Naftali, who is likened to a deer.

    #1160806

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Derech Hamelech, putting aside procedural issues, do you really see a difference in the names Simcha (for women and also for men) and Menucha which are mentioned in SA, and the name Shira or Gila. What about the biblical name Devorah which means bee? Unless I am missing a second meaning to the word, how is a bee more Jewish or appropriate than Shira or Gila, etc.? Why did Devorah Haneviah’s mother give her that name? By the way, the fact that Shira is not listed in SA is no rayah that it is not appropriate. The list is mainly to tell us how to spell questionable names. For instance under Miriam there is Miri, and the Russian Mirush, and maybe Mirka. The name Shira is so simple it does not need to be listed.

    In addition don’t we have a klal of pok chazi mai ama dvar and zillions of Jews have used the names on your list. Can they all be bad people?

    #1160807

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Speaking of Artscroll, I am reminded that in the book about the Vilna Gaon, it says that when he was niftar, the first task confronting the Beis Din of Vilna was to asur anybody from keeping any of his hanhagos and changes to established practices. They were appropriate for him, but not for the hamon am.

    #1160808

    yunger mann
    Member

    #1160809

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    YungerMann, while I appreciate your derech eretz, however, the fact that some here claim that they know of cases where some have actually been told to change their name, means that they are bad names to have. Changing a name is extremely serious. See the klalim I referred to in Hilchos Gittin, where again, the first one is that we never change a name, even if it is non-Jewish or has a bad meaning. We put it on the get as is.

    #1160810

    yunger mann
    Member

    Pushuteh- I don’t think Reb Chaim shlit”a says change. rather he says to add.

    #1160811

    Pashuteh Yid: Hello. Please don’t trust all these name-changing stories, unless you see them in a reliable source.

    Anonymous posters who include a kiddush requirement as part of the story is very unreliable. It has been mentioned here that Rav Chaim never told people to make a kiddush for a girl (not that he is opposed..).

    #1160812

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Truth, actually I heard the opposite about the Steipler. Parents of one girl asked him why they were having so much trouble with a shidduch. He asked if they made a kiddush when she was born. They said no. He said, then make one now. They did and she soon got engaged.

    #1160813

    Pashuteh Yid: In Derech Sichah, which are conversations Rabbi Man, who learns with Rav Chaim K had with Rav chaim, he quotes this conversation.

    Rav Man told Rav Chaim about a kiddush for an older girl he attended while he was visiting LA, which was based upon the story quoted about the Steipler. Rav Chaim rejects the story completely based upon the following.

    1) He never made a kiddush for any of his daughters. (His mother-in-law did make one for his oldest daughter).

    2) The Steipler never told any of his family members to make a Kiddush.

    Rav Chaim is convinced that if there were truth to the story he would of heard his father encouraging Kiddaishim.

    Stories about our leaders are often interchanged. It was probably a different Godol who prescribed the kiddush.

    #1160814

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    What type of foods would have been at those kiddushes the Steipler did not say one has to make? I am getting hungry already, and may now go back to the Cholent thread.

    #1160815

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    WADR to R’ Chaim Kanievsky, I’ll keep my name.

    #1160816

    yunger mann
    Member

    Truth teller- I couldn’t find you’re post of you’re analogy of why i’m Joseph any where. I wanted to repost it as an analogy why YOU sound like him.

    #1160817
    #1160818

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    jaymatt19- twice in this thread ,you said that the name ‘chaim’is ancient one-referring us to the seder hadoros-I have the seder hadoros-chelek sheni-in forn of me,where he lists ALL the tannaim and amoraim and their names. there are plenty of “hiyah” (rav hiyah and many others). There is NOT one called chaim.please clarify your statements!

    #1160819

    oomis
    Participant

    For instance under Miriam there is Miri, and the Russian Mirush, and maybe Mirka”

    That was approximately my husband’s aunt’s name. Mirchkah.

    #1160820

    ujew
    Participant

    B’einai Ro’isi a letter which one of the chashuvei tamidei chachomim had written to R’ Chaim Shlita asking why the name Shira is worse than any Yiddish name. R’ Chaim had written his answer on it, and although I don’t remember it kilshoinoi, it was to the effect of “Shem Zeh Himtzi’uhu Horeshoi’m”.

    I don’t know what he meant but he’ll answer any of your questions. The address is 23 Rechov Rashbam, Bnei Brak ISRAEL

    #1160821

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    rabbi of berlin

    It is in the back of chelek ALEF. Page SHIN PAY BEIS (382)

    #1160822

    putting aside procedural issues, do you really see a difference in the names Simcha (for women and also for men) and Menucha which are mentioned in SA, and the name Shira or Gila

    Nope, I don’t see a difference at all. But maybe this is where Charda”l and Chareidi diverge. If it is a fact that Rav Chaim did say this then he obviously understands things that I don’t. That’s not so difficult for me to believe. I am planning to buy this sefer to determine if the quote from Rav Chaim is second-hand or if the mechaber actually asked Rav Chaim himself. But if he did, there is no way to convince me that Rav Chaim is wrong.

    In addition don’t we have a klal of pok chazi mai ama dvar and zillions of Jews have used the names on your list. Can they all be bad people?

    I don’t think we (me and you) get to determine when we say pok chazi. Also that case was when the gedolim weren’t sure what the halacha was for carrying a knife on an animal. Here the gedolim say they know.

    #1160823

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Rabbi of Berlin

    Look in Tosfos in Zevachim. 27b

    btw. I once heard a pshat the Biblical Hebrew is the most encompassing language. It is just that the only parts of it we are privy to are those words in the Tanach.

    It could also be the same thing with names. There were obviously more names used than just those which appear in the Tanach. It could be that there was a Mesorah that Mimon was a name. It is just that we know of this due to the Rambam. Could be the same thing with the name Chaim. It could be that it was around for a long time. Just that the first records of it was the above listed tosfos.

    #1160824

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    jaymatt19-we must have different prints of the seder hadoros.Mine-first part- only goes to page 296.Anyway- the first part has many names (as a mafteach-index) and it includes the name “chaim’ many times.Of course- that name has been around since middle ages-and the tosfos that you mention is in the middle ages. In the second chelek,where he brings down the names of the tannaim and amoraim, chaim does not appear.

    BTW- “hiyah” in aramiac means life-just like chaim. maybe this is what you refer to. Nonetheless- the question of many posters remains: why can we -and we did- make up names throughout the centuries and just now we cannot?

    derech hamelech- plenty of ‘chareidi” gedolim saw no problem with the name shira (see posters) so this is R”chaim kanyevsky vs. other chareidim.

    #1160826

    observanteen
    Member

    Perhaps the first Shirah was named by a Zionist in honor of the State of Israel or the Balfour Declaration etc., and/or it was popularized by Zionist elements.

    #1160827

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Rabbi of Berlin:

    You raise a fair question. Why can’t we create new names? Obviously R’ Chaim’s psak has been previously mentioned so we’ll move along. According to the Sefer that this topic is about. on page 168, it quotes (in a footnote) that R’ Eliashiv, R’ Mordechai Eliyau and R’ Z. N. Goldberg there is seemingly no problem.

    HOWEVER!!

    1. The name is a Hashba on the child, what Hashba are you giving your child with this new name?

    2. IIRC, The sefer differenciates and says that Parents used to have NEVUA as to what to name their child, but only have Siyata D’Shmaya now

    3. It is Absolutely Ossur according to all to name your child a name which they will be ridiculed for having. How many people would like having the name “Ohr Zaruah”? It might sound beautiful to the parents, but I’d bet it would be a tough name for a kid to have.

    4. This also explains why this is less of a question with the Yiddish names. Since the name has a Hashba, if naming Feige cause of Bubby Feige or Zundle because of great Uncle Zundle, so there is your Hashba. (Whether that Hashba is the one you want for your child or not is another story)

    5. That is why the sefer suggests one asks a “Shayilas Chachom before naming, especially if naming a “new name”.

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